Port or oversized valves?

[BigThumper33]

Well I've got the ex all stripped, the frame is sent off for a gusset and pc job.

I ordered a Ross 416 piston and a TC cam

I have alittle extra cash laying around. I can't up my local shop and they gave me some prices on port work and some oversized vavle work.

Which will show the most improvement? He said the 1mm oversized valves really does the trick.

I may not have enough cash to do both, so I'm wondering which is worth the money now.

[Steven]

from what I have read and I am NOT speaking from experience... the oversize valves will not yield improvements in the 416 or 440.

porting on the other had will get you some more power

Steve

[Steve-o 400EX]

From what I was told, neither will do a hell of a lot to a 416. I have been asking these same questions cuz I am doin a 416 this spring. Just relayin the info.:cool:

You really need to do both to get the max gains but you dont have to. I am referring mostly to the 440 and larger bores as the smaller motors will not benefit "as much" from the larger valves due to the smaller bore not flowing as much.

The port/polish will show a good gain without the valves but this mod does seriously want more "flow" and the valves would deff help.

The valves alone will be a benefit but would be much better with the porting etc.

So yes you should get both done if you want the max out of the motor but I can assure you that the porting alone does wonders for this motor

[iride440ex]

I have the port & polish done to mine and it help out my quad but was wondering what it would cost to put 1mm oversized valves in and can you do both intake and exhaust 1mm over.

[UglyMotha™]

Originally posted by Steve-o 400EX
From what I was told, neither will do a hell of a lot to a 416. I have been asking these same questions cuz I am doin a 416 this spring. Just relayin the info.:cool:


i've heard of some people pulling some mad numbers from stock motors just by doing some porting

[trx400ex]

as far as which will help more.....porting... but you should get both. you might need new valves anyway, and the valves dont cost alot, so if you can spring get both!

[ChadEXer]

I guess I disagree with everybody!!! You definately should go ahead and get the porting done while the motor is open, but save your money on a valve job. Since you got a TC cam, call TC up at 814-723-3514 and ask him what he thinks, I guarantee you he will tell you larger valves will do nothing for your bike. Matter of fact if any motor needed them i would think my motor does and Tom told me he wouldnt do it because I would be wasting money, and power!! He explained to me exactly what larger valves would do for the EX but I dont remeber exactly what he told me, there is some circumstances that larger valves will help, but im positive you wont see any gain from them,,,,If Im not mistaken he said larger valves make for a tad bit better on top end, but actually make you lose on the bottom end,,,,I may be wrong but I do suggest you call him up and see what he thinks!!!

[AndrewRRR]

I had stainless +1.5mm valves (intake only) put in my Suzuki and it did make a difference on top end and I didn't notice any bottom end loss. This is, however, on a motor that turns 14,000rpm. The stock porting looks darn good, and I bent and broke a couple valves, so this is why the valves were done first.
I would do porting first if I were you, but if you are going to open up your motor, you might as well wait till you can do both. I would agree with Chad and call TC first. They know what they are doing when it comes to these bikes.

I guess I disagree with everybody!!! You definately should go ahead and get the porting done while the motor is open, but save your money on a valve job. Since you got a TC cam, call TC up at 814-723-3514 and ask him what he thinks, I guarantee you he will tell you larger valves will do nothing for your bike.

I dont think your off with everyone on this. I cant tell you how much of a diff the larger valves are gonna make but if the motor isnt needing any extra flow then I guess we agree that there isnt gonna be any large gains :) but if its needing more air/fuel to fill the cylinder at rpm then it should deff benefit from the valves.

I understand that Tom builds "torque" motors and therefore would be looking more at bottom to mid so I bet your right in your guarantee.

Tried to call him many times and when he finally did answer he was obviously busy and behind the 8 ball so I didnt get to talk to or evaluate him and his ideas as much as I would have liked. I agree with the theories that you and david (warriorman) post as being from TC and wish I could have kept Tom on the phone longer.

We did get to talk about cams a little (sorry never really got into valves or porting :( ) and he doesnt even like the extra spring tension from the aftermarket valve springs, he claims they cause un needed wear on the cam and rockers. I am not decided on this one yet but will know more soon when I swap out the current cam. I do know that allthough Tom swears I was nuts it does run stronger with the new springs but as agreed you cant know if there wasnt another problem also.

Enough of that for now :)

As far as I can see the popular and what I think to be correct method would be to get the porting done.

Do let us know how it works out and performs etc.

[Chef]

If you really want to, you can have 2mm oversize intakes, and obviously the 1mm over intakes. They DEFINITELY make a difference in the EX motor. A friend of mine recently cooked his 10.8:1 416, the cam was ruined, and while they were in there they decided to have porting and bigger valves done. They easily picked up another 5 hp...if not more.

Maybe TC doesnt do porting that can even take advantage of the big valves? Who knows....the dude just sounds a little off to me...

[Dave400ex]

Lenny that really doesn't sound like Tom at all. Every time I have called him he was more then willing to talk and made sure I understood everything. I agree with Chad in that if the bigger valves do take away some bottom end, that is why Tom would not run them. He must know something that we don't. He also swears by running stock valve springs and rockers with his Cams, which is fine with me because it will save money and Rick Cecco said after 3 years of racing on his motor the springs, rockers, and cam were all in good shape. Tom builds his motors different that's for sure. Only thing he does for XC is a 425 piston, cam, and his pipe. He said porting and all that stuff is not needed, and if I felt I needed more power, to go with a carb. And for the first time ever he said I would NOT want a lectron for XC...

[trx400ex]

I think Tom fell off his rocker:eek: , theres no way OS valves wouldnt add anything, LRD says they are getting +2HP with the 1MM over intake. And i dont know, but i think OS vlaves add in the mid and top, and that you need to run a higher compression because your compression will lower with the OS valves, i think i read that somewhere.

[ChadEXer]

Originally posted by trx400ex
I think Tom fell off his rocker:eek: , theres no way OS valves wouldnt add anything, LRD says they are getting +2HP with the 1MM over intake. And i dont know, but i think OS vlaves add in the mid and top, and that you need to run a higher compression because your compression will lower with the OS valves, i think i read that somewhere.
Man I believe you totally misunderstood what I said. I didnt say it WOULDNT ADD NOTHING. I said I believe that Tom told me that it would add to the top but take a little off the bottom end, wasnt even sure if that what he said. Like Ive said time again, Tom built my motor for torque, CHEF may be right about getting 5 more HP, However Im sure most if not all of that was from the porting alone, but if the valves did help add HP then thats fine because Tom didnt build my motor for the highest HP number he built it for torque,,,,there is no doubt that my bike would beat a bike with probably 10 more HP than mine on a drag strip because mine has SO much torque,,,Im out of the hole faster than you can blink and I promise you wont catch me!! So my whole point is that Tom didnt reccomend bigger valves for my 505 so i assumed they werent needed. If you call and tell him your situation he may recommend them,,,,,but for you all to put Tom down like that really pi$$es me off,,,,and dont tell me Im just fond of him because he built my motor,,,well why the he!! shouldnt I be,,,he built a motor for me that hasnt even been CLOSE to being touched yet and when I had a little stupidity problem he fixed it and shipped it for free. Tom is ALWAYS busy when I call but the last time I called we were on the phone for 30 minutes,,,he probably doesnt have a lot of time to sit and talk about his motor building beliefs to somebody just interested,,,he is in the game to make money, but you can bet if you get him to do some work for you he will take out as much time as you need. Just like in my business if you wanna call and talk Ill be nice and help as much as possible,,,but you talk business and Im all ears. So stay away from the rips on Tom, especially by what i say becasue we have talked MANY times and I cant explain some of the stuff he has told me and probably get things a little twisted,,Tom has been in the game a long time and didnt get this far, and that big of a name by giving free Hotdogs,,,so give him the respect he deserves.

[knighttime]

:huh

[ptomp]

all stock production heads can benifit from porting period. stock heads are mass produced and very rarely finished by hand. even if you sanded out the ports and cleaned off all the flaws you will improve the flow. so if you increase the valve size you should increase the port diameter A LITTLE do not get caried away most bad port jobs are done by people who remove too much material in the port and kill their low speed velocity.the valve job on the seat is a HUGE part of the secret to a good cyl head and should be done by someone who does that style of head. most automotive valve seat cutters do poor valve jobs or can not do valves that small

[ChadEXer]

See thats also what Tom told me,,,that cutting the valve seats(a 3 or 5 (I believe) angle valve job, can be of good benefit to the motor but the actual larger valves themselves are pretty much useless!

[Dave400ex]

Chad have you done any Drag races or raced your buddy with the 350r?

Lenny that really doesn't sound like Tom at all. Every time I have called him he was more then willing to talk and made sure I understood everything.
Honestly I have about the worse timming anyone could have so maybe was just a bad time or off day, but it was obvious he had other things on his mind and thats not a problem for me (I have been hurried by the best of them) but I was truely sorry I couldnt get more of his time to better understand how his "torque" ideas could work into my current setup.

I do intend to try and talk with him again in the future and hopefully I get him at a better time, till then I am going to leave in the Kibblewhite springs and hotcam.



Hey Chad chill out man your gonna catch a stroke or something :D

I do agree with the torque preference you have and have built auto motors on that premise since I was 16 but I have a little confusion with this:)
Im just fond of him because he built

Did you mean fondle???????? :devil :eek: :scary: And how built are we talking about here LMFAO

Hey seriously every engine builder I have ever talked with or seen their work does things a little different and thats a good thing otherwise everything would be the friggin same.

I like what I have heard about Toms engines and methods etc and thats why I had called him in the first place. I was and still am interested in different cam profiles or grinds to both wake up and smooth out the power band or output of this motor.

Tom seems to shun the popular opinion or "scams" more than anyone else I have heard of and that does get my interest flowing cause so many builders are selling the same bag of crap.

So though I couldnt see who you were thinking of when you thought someone was dissin anyone I am just writing it off to some possible ADD. And I mean that in a good way :rolleyes: `

[BigThumper33]

I agree, when a builder is telling you not to spend your money on something, when your willing to, cause its not worth it. I will take that to the bank! I've talked to TC alittle about my little project, and overall I've decided just to hold out on the port work(decided on getting some beadlocks) and just basically cutting out the valve job. Next winter I'll hit the motor alitte harder, right now I need to concentrate on getting it rolling! I'd just like to thank both the quadshop and TC racing, they have steered me in the right direction, never taking my money, when they had the chance. Great info guys!

[TRX300X]

I've always been told that the EX head outflows the engine as is. If it were an engine I was building I'd just remove the casting flaws and grind new valve seats and call it good.

[ChadEXer]

Originally posted by WarriorMan
Chad have you done any Drag races or raced your buddy with the 350r?
I havent got a chance to race him yet! There is going to be some big drags this weekend and some awesome bikes there so I will know for sure how mine stacks up! I think my buddies 350R still has me though, I may be able to pull him off the line but Im afraid he will catch me, but either way it will be close so I cant wait!!

Doibugu, no fondle just fond;) I just dont have enough nice things to say about Tom, he has helped me out tremendously!!

[Dave400ex]

Tom has always helped me out whenever I call. I had a bunch of problems with my Jetting and after I switched to the Jetting and Spark Plug he said it has ran great ever since. The man knows his stuff...

The man knows his stuff...

Thats why I called :rolleyes:

[ChadEXer]

Warroirman,
We had some drag races at 2 of our parks here this weekend. At the first one I raced a few Predators, a Z, a KFX, 2 Cannondales, a few Raptors, and a Trailblazer!! The closest race was probably with the Cannondale, I only beat him by about 10 bike lengths! They put us all in an open class. At the other park they wouldnt let me race the 400's,,,,they put the Raptors in the 400 class, and put me in the open class with a DS 650 on alcohol! He was probably my closest competition of the weekend but I still beat him. A STOCK 400ex (or so he said) won the 400 class there!

[BigThumper33]

Awesome Chad, when are we going to see some dyno charts? :D

[ChadEXer]

Well to be perfectly honest the reason i dont have dyno numbers yet is because of money. My business is at an all time low right now and Im broke! It will cost me $75 for the dyno and thats over an hour drive from here! I had to rob the bank to get the $30 to enter the park and the drag races this weekend but at least i won a little cash to make up for that at the drags,,,but not much!!

[Dave400ex]

Well hopefully business starts booming because I want to see some numbers.

[ChadEXer]

It should start picking up pretty fast. Im so curious to see numbers myself that its killing me!!