right to work

[250r rider 88]

Just curious if anyone on here lives and works in "right to work" states. and how do you feel about it? I live in Indiana and work in a union and we are more than likely going to become the 23rd right to work state.

They say it will bring more businesses which means more jobs but if you look at the other 22 RTW states, only 1 is in the top 15 for household income the other 21 are in the bottom half of the states. They think that by cutting a union workers wages down will create more jobs and a better economy, but that doesn't make sense.

If you cut my wages down to 15 an hour (currently 19) and you do that for everyone in the union, you could only hire 1 person for every 4 you cut wages and still profit a buck. Now is the company going to hire one person or just keep that extra 16 an hour it no longer has to pay? The answer should be obvious.

When they cut my pay I couldn't afford to live the way I do now which involves me buying things from local small businesses as well as large retailers. If you take back a persons yearly salary by 8k, that is 8k not being spent in the economy every year.

So now the employees who have their wages cut are looking for part time jobs, that do not exist as it is to make up that 8k lost in a year.

Just curious as to everyone else's take on this as it has me quite peeved. People can bash unions all they want but until you have worked in one you do not have the right.

[motomadman]

Right to work doesn't mean you can't form or join or have a union represent you. It means you can opt out and represent yourself. You can choose not to pay them their "dues". It means they cannot force you to join their corrupt liberal club. It means you can go on your own and be judged by your work ethic and work record, not by a contract. It means you can earn a raise based on merit. It means you can work at a productive pace without being told by your "brothers" to slow it down. It means if you are a slacker you can be fired as you should be. All in all it gives people a choice that they should have, and they unions and democrats are scared to death because many, many fed up people will opt out when given the choice. Unions are a major contributor to this countries current crisis. And yes I have worked in several, and will never again. Be glad you live in a decent place like Indiana that still respects individuals liberties and hasn't been sucked down the drain.

[KKiowaTJ]

Unions always have their hand out for more, More , More. But they dont put out the "more" they asked for in work. Its BS they have gotten away with it this far. I'm glad to see them start to fail from lack of union leaders and "i want more" union members.

Yes i did work in a union and they are a scam. They take your due's, But never there when you need them. My father also worked for 35 years as a union worker but he is a brain washed union idiot who still thinks obamanation can fix this **** hole.

He made $28 an hour, Same company, I made $14. The most i would ever make is maybe $18. The company went to a two tier system to **** over new employees and the "head" guys on the union who were making the $20+ an hour pushed it through.

I'm glad to see them failing and hope they fail all together, All they are is a mob of " I want more" workers. To each their own

BTW UAW local 807, Ran by high dollar unionites that only care about their friends and their pay scale.

[Honda5]

I love my union. I don't have to work in unsafe conditions. No unsafe equipment. Great retirement. And get paid 2x what people doing the same job get.

[traitor08]

Right to work states usually have skilled workers from out of state to build most of the complex stuff. My brother in law has worked prevailing wage in several right to work states. If you want to see work go to out of state guys, then vote for it, if not vote against it.

[250x_kyle]

Originally posted by Honda5
I love my union. I don't have to work in unsafe conditions. No unsafe equipment. Great retirement. And get paid 2x what people doing the same job get.

x2 although im not in the union yet few more weeks to go.

[Quad18star]

I'm a union member and proud of it. As mentioned by Honda5, thanks to unions you have safe working conditions and you're making more than minimum wage in order to support your family. You also have people behind you when a company tries to fire you over unfounded allegations and someone to represent you in front of a labourboard.

You can thank unions for providing you with statutory holidays to spend time with family and friends, you can thank them for providing you with minimum vacation days in a year, thank them for joint health and safety commitees, safe working conditions along with rules and regulations. We can all go back to mining in China .... Send a man in and if he dies , send another and continue the cycle until the company gets what they wanted.

[motomadman]

Originally posted by Honda5
And get paid 2x what people doing the same job get.

Work gets done at half the speed it should, and it cost twice as much. That's Obama economics, that's why small businesses and America in general is on the way down the toilet.

Again right to work only means you CAN CHOOSE if you want to be in the union or not. If you currently work as a plumber for a company and are in a union, you can leave the union and continue to work there. That's the way it should be. We are not a communist country where your every decision is forced on you, not quite yet at least.

[Honda5]

Have you ever seen a slow UPS driver? Would you want a unqualified worker working on a elevator? how about someone building the bridges you drive over.
Go and cut the pay but but I doubt they will hire another person. This would be a way for the business owners to make more and widen the gap between working class and the elete.

[traitor08]

If you think right to work is good, go to one of those states and check it out first hand. And I like how its listed as forced unionism, politicians love fancy words. If you don't wanna be in a union, don't be. You have to apply and work at getting in, so how is that forcing. And big businesses need to be in check sometimes, there out to make money, not friends. They will screw anybody to make a dollar.

[YFZ-FoFiddy-TC]

I'm part of the Union and it's complete garbage. 90% of the people I work with are pieces of **** but their job is kept because of the union. All the union is good for is keeping around lazy workers who want to do less but make more.

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by 250r rider 88
People can bash unions all they want but until you have worked in one you do not have the right.

So you're saying if I have never worked in a Union, I have no voice about labor, labor laws, and economic issues resulting from them?

I'm not a teacher, does that mean I don't have a voice regarding my children's education?

Oh, crap. I've never been a politician, should I still be allowed to vote?

[derekhonda]

Everyones starting to get riled up.

It's been mentioned here a couple of times, but I will remind you:

RTW only gives a person the freedom to opt out of paying the union. To me, If you have a good union, you are still going to pay. I would. If I really thought that the union was the reason why I had a great job, good benefits, great pay, good vacation, etc...it shouldn't be a big deal to pay your dues. And I think the good unions will figure that out.

Now, if your union isn't pulling their weight for you, making you go on strike when you want to work, not getting you a full 40 hour week, etc etc. Then maybe you start thinking, "what am I paying them for" Well, now you have an option.

[FHKracingZ]

I am kinda split on the idea. I worked for a non-union sanitary pipe fitting company in Wisconsin which is a right to work state. Right to work also states you can work side by side with a union worker also.

The company I worked for charged $50 per pipe welder with the welder making around $20-25 an hour. Union shops want $115 per man making $35-40 if hes a journey.

I also know many pipe welders who cannot even weld sanitary stainless pipe.

I like how unions do fight for some liberties and safeties for workers, some one has to do it.

Unions need to find a way to get rid of their stupid union attitude that only they know how to do their trade. Finding a way to get rid of ****ty workers instead of protecting them would be a good start also.

[stanrich]

I have built bridges with both union and non union companys I will never work non union again and I don't even want to drive over some of the bridges they built.

[tw1976]

Originally posted by FHKracingZ
I am kinda split on the idea. I worked for a non-union sanitary pipe fitting company in Wisconsin which is a right to work state. .

Wisconsin is not a right to work state, yet at least. Otherwise I pretty much agree on your stance.

I'm a member of the Chicago operators union. I've seen the good and bad of the union, and I'm not naive enough to think that just because someone isn't in a union they can't run a machine as well as I can.

The union has been helpful in a pay issue I had with my employer on an occasion where we worked 22 hours straight. I think they keep contractors somewhat humbled. If I hadn't had the union to back me on the money I knew I was owed due to our agreement I would never have seen it. The union also supplies me decent insurance, and pension. Although who knows if that will be there when I retire. I do pay them a good chunk of change in dues for that representation though.

But, being a foreman I have dealt with the ****ty hands that have no business being on a machine, or digging around gas mains which is the work we do. Just because you told dispatch you can run a machine, doesn't mean you can. Unions need to improve on supplying workers that can do the job, and eliminate the attitudes of workers who think they're untouchable because they are in a union.

[stanrich]

Originally posted by tw1976
[ Unions need to improve on supplying workers that can do the job, and eliminate the attitudes of workers who think they're untouchable because they are in a union. [/B]
I agree 100%

[traitor08]

I agree that the union does benefit some people who shouldn't work at hardees. What I am saying if rhythm to work was so good, why aren't other states hiring workers from there to do jobs. Instead right to work states have to hire hire union workers to do the work. I know this because my brother in law has worked in several right to work states because they do not have skilled workers to fill the slots. And i am in Missouri, have been in a couple different unions, and think right to work is an extremely bad decision. And no, I wasn't trying to convey that a parent shouldn't be involved in the child's education, or that you shouldn't be involved in politics. What i am saying is you need to do you homework before you make any decision. This includes education, politics, picking out a vehicle.

[Ruby Soho]

not all unions are bad. though, everybody seems to think that.

[chronicsmoke]

Trades Unions are a bit different.. I dont have any experience with that, but seems its a bunch of BS (my bro is a carpenter and has had some falling outs with the Union, something about the foreman ***ing something up and blaming the employees)

I work for a Municipal Government and am in a union. I see where people on the outside can get pissed off with the policies that the corporation has, but that's just the way it is. People ***** about city workers day in-day out, but if they had the chance, they'd be doing the same thing.

I LOVE being in a union.. I had to get a root canal done 2 weeks ago, cost me 12$ :cool: and free painkillers after

[toby400ex]

Originally posted by motomadman
Work gets done at half the speed it should, and it cost twice as much. That's Obama economics, that's why small businesses and America in general is on the way down the toilet.

Again right to work only means you CAN CHOOSE if you want to be in the union or not. If you currently work as a plumber for a company and are in a union, you can leave the union and continue to work there. That's the way it should be. We are not a communist country where your every decision is forced on you, not quite yet at least. This theory works in some cases. Take my job for example. I NEEDED a raise in order to stay where I am. I work 40-50 hours a week for the same check each week. 50 or more I make time and a half. Not to bad. I had a week where where monday was a designated holiday pay day, 8 hours at normal hourly days..............But I am salary. I worked that holiday from 9am to 1am, and did not recieve holiday pay, i did however get overtime for the fact I worked over 50 hours that week. I did not get the 8 hours of holiday pay in my check at all, everyone else in the shop i work at was given their holiday pay but myself. I feel if this was a union iob i would not been ****ed out of these hours the way I was.

[motomadman]

It passed and is now law in Indiana. Thanks God people have a choice of not to support the corrupt liberal machine that is helping destroy this country.

Toby why don't you tell your boss how you feel he ****** you out of your holiday pay. Maybe you can organize a union there. Maybe he will tell you to hit the road and bring in someone who is thrilled to have a guaranteed salary position. After all you both "have the right".

[quad2xtreme]

If you are buying big ticket items, you don't want the workers to be unionized because you want to pay the lowest price you can, right? We all want cheaper energy so let's get rid of the United Mine Workers. We all want cheaper cars too so let's get rid of all auto workers unions. If we could just run more sweat shops in the US, we could compete with aspiring nations like China. We could send our miners into get coal without regards to safety. After all, so what if 10,000 or 20,000 miners die a year. There will always be others willing to mine. Eventually the market will prevail and miners will only risk their lives if they think the wage is worth it, right? After all, this is what capitalism is all about. This is working well so far in China, right?

What we need is more middle class Americans falling into the ranks of lower class. Of course the poor will get poorer because eventually they have to start paying enough taxes so we have a balanced budget. Since the beginning, America was a rich nation where the middle class paid the bulk of taxes but we are no longer a rich nation. We went from being the largest loaner of money 40 years ago to being the largest borrower of money. Of course many argue that we can't have the supremely rich paying taxes because they are investing their money and making it a better place for everyone. Of course, they are outsourcing middle class jobs and replacing them with low paying jobs.

The real problem is that corporate America has gotten greedy and bought out our government too. When things ran better, there was always a balance between corporate America and the government. Now they are the same. Corporate America owns the government. Our middle class is being sold out by corporate America to foreign companies. The good news is America is getting poorer all the time and soon our citizens can work for as low wages as they do in other countries. Companies like Apple will no longer need to farm out production and development for cheap labor overseas...they will be able to get it right here in America.

If you truly believe that welfare is what is driving this country into the ground, you are sadly buying into a full barrel of ****. Social programs is a very small portion of the budget. The decline of middle class America is what is killing the country. When 100 of the people in my company get laid off, 10 of them are lucky to find equivalent jobs. The rest take huge pay cuts.

I am happy to pay more for US products if I know that means my fellow worker is living the American dream. I will pay more so he stays middle class and can contribute to the tax base. Do you guys really believe that the poorest countries are better off from not having unions? If so, why are they so damn poor and have terrible working conditions? Why do families have their children working just to survive?

I am sure this will generate responses. I only wish I had the time to respond to them. All I ask is for you to explain how the decline of middle America is helping? When you can explain this theory in economic terms, we can move forward. What we can't have is the lower class not able to pay taxes, a very reduced middle class that can no longer pay the bulk of taxes, and protecting the upper class from paying taxes. Somebody has to pay the taxes. With the reduction of middle class America, who has to step up to pay the loss in the tax base?

[motomadman]

It is not a tax base problem, there is plenty of money there. It is a spending problem. Like paying $25k per vehicle on cash for clunkers. UAW loved that one, while the taxpayers got screwed like a house cat thanks to union lobbying.

And welfare is a huge part of it. More people get social benefits than ever before. Obama was right about one thing, Americans are getting lazy. Many would rather collect unemployment for 3 years than take the same paying job. And why would you since they offer it to you on a silver platter. I see it every day, its sickening. People whip out their food stamp card like its a platinum card. There are jobs out there, maybe not the one you want.

It doesn't matter. This country has went so far left, and created such a anti business climate even for small businesses. Americas best days are gone I'm afraid. We'll be luck if our grand kids can even afford things like quads for their kids. Hey whens the next OWS meeting so we can stick it to the business owners, their the problem!!!

[quad2xtreme]

Originally posted by motomadman
It is not a tax base problem, there is plenty of money there.

There is a huge gap between what is required to operate the country and what is being collected. If you eliminated all welfare and the clunker program, you wouldn't even begin to make a dent in that running deficit.

So let's go with your assumption that there is plenty of waste that can be trimmed. An easy example would be to get rid of the entire military. Let's just assume we don't need them anymore because every country in the world promises not to attack us. The good news is we now have a balanced budget again. But now, where exactly are all these people going to get jobs especially in a time when we are outsourcing middle class jobs to India and replacing others with automation? Even lowly factory work is being automated. And now the problem worsens in so many respects. And the budget is no longer in balance again because none of these military guys are paying taxes now. We will need to get rid of some other government workers to keep the budget in balance.

The sad truth is that we no longer have a middle class funding this country as it could in the past. The middle class tax base has eroded to the point there isn't enough money to come close to covering the spending. Like many countries that have more people than required to support their productivity levels, we too are now in this situation. Our jobs went overseas. An yes, we can bring them back to America when we are willing to accept low paying jobs just to survive. Sadly, middle class is going to be way out of reach for most of your kids. Big business won't have nearly as much need for middle class jobs positions so the demand for middle class jobs will far exceed the supply thus driving down what even middle class folks can expect to make. Stock brokers, lawyers, accountants are all feeling this effect already. Companies are outsourcing their accounting needs too. It started with technology and is moving in to other areas.

The truth is people love to hate and blame the government and yet both government and corporate america are needed. The biggest problem is they must be in balance and that isn't the case now. Corporate America is far more powerful than anyone representing the people. Do you truly believe our congress represents the people?

[quad2xtreme]

some example stories for those who don't think the middle class no longer paying taxes isn't a big deal...

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/goodbye--middle-class.html

I work for a high-tech company. We've gone from 8,000 jobs to 6,500. I can tell you the medium income is easily 100K+. This alone represents a reduction in taxable income of $150 million. At an average tax rate of 25%, this alone is a decrease of $37.5 million in tax collections. And many of these people are collecting unemployment and looking to take any kind of job they can find. Many will take a step back to 40k just like the people featured in the article.

[CNC_guy]

There are a lot of fancy thoughts and ideas in this thread.

Here is the just of it....

Americans have become lazy. Unions have played a part in it but a propped up government welfare system has too. You can't tell me with straight face our current welfare system is good for America. You have too few people adding value to raw materials and actually producing things. We've become a country of buying and selling and are too lazy to actually produce at full capacity anymore.

Oh, and I've been in a union when I worked at UPS and deal with a union shop daily. Last week, one of their workers decided he wanted to sit on his butt the rest of the week so he crashed his machine and sat on his butt until my shop made new repair parts. There wasn't a thing they could say to him. **** like that, which happens all the time, is why I say unions (in manufacturing) have run their course.

[quad2xtreme]

I would agree there are productivity issues in this country but it doesn't equate to the real problem...and a big productivity increase would not fix the problem either...but would help some. Once you understand that working hard and being productive at minimum wage level jobs doesn't mean much to the economy.

Let's put the issue of welfare being the source of the problem to rest once and for all based on the following:

You could eliminate all the money spent by the federal government on welfare and training programs and there still wouldn't be a balanced budget...not even close. Now put every single welfare recipient to work and the problem still isn't fixed. The reason is that the "new" jobs are lower paying jobs and people working for minimum wage don't pay taxes. The truth is that families falling into lower class do not cover the cost of the services they receive. Even scarier that today in this country 2 parents each working 2 jobs at minimum wage still puts you into the category of getting more services than you pay for (assuming you have 2 children).

The US was always the most affluent nation with a "government protected" middle class. Corporate America had to deal with this injustice that required them to employ people at middle class jobs. We operated fine this way and it didn't cause trade issues with other counties. The government controlled imports and exports to protect the middle class. Corporate America gained control of the government so they could change the landscape (laws) which would allow outsourcing. What this led to was cheap labor (replacement of middle class jobs with lower paying people working in India). This led to a boom in the stock market due to all the high profits.

Now the benefits of this strategy are over. These companies still need to maintain growth to satisfy investors but there is no magic pill to further reduce costs and increase productivity. They can hope for minor improvement at best. The bigger problem now is that the bulk of our tax base was paid by these middle class jobs. Our middle class has shrunk to 1/2 of what it was and no longer generates the tax base it did. We can't continue operating like the rich country we were with the bulk of our society now in the lower class (not paying much in taxes).

Americans are used to some magical fix to everything. So far there isn't anything on the table that is going to work. We got ahead due to industrialization once and technology the second time. Outsourcing led to a false belief of inflated profits and a rich economy but that didn't turn out to be the case. The question is what is the next big fix that is going to keep America ahead? The sad truth is neither party has a plan. Sometimes you can't fix what's been destroyed.

[quad2xtreme]

By the way, I usually just stay quiet about all this political stuff. I don't have a solution and it really doesn't matter to me if we have a democrat or republican President in office because neither will solve the problem. At most, one will make it slightly less worse than the other. The only real fix is for our government to regain control from Corporate America (and Corporate America has gained additional strength in the last 4 years...in fact, now even foreign corporations can buy a say in America).

I spent the 1st 25 years of my life being poor and spent the last 20 years working my *** off getting into upper middle class. Nothing scares me more than thinking about falling back into lower class America. There isn't anything dishonorable about being poor...it just isn't nearly as fun and easy as being middle class. With so many middle class jobs already outsourced, I now compete with more driven, smart people than ever who would be willing to do my job for a lot less. At this point, it is only my own company leadership that is involved in protecting our jobs from more outsourcing or just flat out replacing us all with displaced workers willing to do our jobs for less. BTW, I have never worked for a union in my life. I've worked for Price Waterhouse, Legg Mason, 2 large law firms (>500 attorneys alone), and 2 high-tech companies. My current employer has 6,500 employees...down from 8,000 a couple years ago.

The sad truth is that unions helped create the power balance the middle class had in politics. It was the shear # of people in the middle class that helped controlled the voting. With the weakening of the middle class and the unions, these two combined don't have the voting power they did. There is a big shift in political power as the bulk of voting goes to the lower class now (if they show up to vote). Why do you think there is so much redistricting going on? You now have the Corporate America Republican party brainwashing the bulk of the lower class into believing that Democrats are simply about give away all your tax dollars to social programs and free loaders. The irony of this is that the lower class doesn't even pay in enough taxes to cover their own services let alone worry about what part of their taxes are helping to contribute to free loaders. The good news for the Republican party is that irony does exist. The very ones getting screwed the most are often in favor of what is happening to them.

BTW, voting Democrat isn't going to help either. Corporate America Democrat party is trying to convince you that the rich get richer while you get poorer so you should vote against Republicans. In either case, you are still voting for Corporate America. Corporate America doesn't care who is in charge as long as they have the final say. Companies don't take sides with candidates. They give them both money and remind them how they got there.

[CNC_guy]

All of what you said is fine and good. Doesn't change the fact that when I go to Wal-Mart after a 16hr day to pick up a few items and the couple in front of me with better clothes on are loading a cart full up on crap food (with a baby in the cart) and pay with welfare that I get extremely frustrated. Then, they have enough energy to race and giggle to the car. By that time I'm boiling mad.

Sorry, I would much rather these two be working a minimum wage job and trying to work up the ladder than be mooching off the government. They may not be helping the economy but at least they wouldn't be taking out of a pot they aren't putting anything into.

Odds are they will be mooching this time next year and little Johnny that was in the cart will mooch as soon as he's old enough.

[quad2xtreme]

I understand the frustration but don't get duped into believing these folks are the cause of our country's problems. My example was to show that even without welfare, we still have a huge deficit problem. They are but a very small part of the real problem...albeit very frustrating I agree. You are correct it is becoming a bigger problem. There are now more of them sharing fewer dollars. Money for them is even getting tight now. Now, they are resorting to robbing and killing to make ends meet.

BTW, the middle class views the lower class similar to the welfare class. They just don't say it and joke about it. The thought is that you don't have your hand out for a full dollar but you still have a way of getting a quarter without asking for it. The lower class helps contribute tax money into the pot but still takes out more than they put in.

Much of the middle class has been broken. Corporate America does hope to break the rest of it by ridding themselves of dealing with unions. This will rid the need of having to maintain this "false" middle class of people getting paid to much for what they do. Now you should realize there are some in this class that are just like the welfare people...taking advantage of the situation. However, there are many good Americans who work their asses off to stay in these jobs and produce. They want to remain in the middle class and will work to stay there. It beats working hard to be in the lower class. Of course the corporations would like to do away with it so they can replace these folks with poverty level jobs.

Soon enough, America will be the highest producing country again. We will be the best damn slave shop in the world. China, India, and many other countries won't have anything on us.

I will try to dig up some pics of "friends" of a friend of mine working in India. There are about 500 programmers working in a cafeteria type environment where we would have maybe 100 people working...with walls and cubicles. They have the space required to have a seat at a table with a computer on it. Cubicles would be an unnecessary, frivolous expense. The company doesn't need to cater to the workers. You don't want to sit there? Go home and starve while another programmer takes your seat for minimum wage.

[Quad18star]

Blue collar workers make the economy run, but when blue collar workers can't even afford to put food on their table , everything else takes a huge hit. If peopple don't buy products, the price of products goes up.

[CNC_guy]

Listen, I've never said the welfare system is the sole and leading cause for problems in America. Just because it's not the main problem doesn't mean it isn't broken and doesn't need to be fixed. We have a very high percentage of people in my area that are receiving government benefits. Generations of laziness have been bred around here. Yes, I'm all for helping someone that needs help and wants to help themselves, but an extended time on welfare is ridiculous.

Try being a middle class small business owner in America. We're supposedly one of the biggest employers and drivers of the economy but we are taxed to death and let's not get started on trying to provide good health insurance to our employees. There are no government programs if I can't make payroll this week. We make payroll by working our butt off and filling the floor with metal chips.

The big three (union) automakers pulled out on us automotive suppliers years ago. Thank goodness (non-union) Toyota moved in with good wages and good work for thousands of small business suppliers like us.

[motomadman]

Originally posted by quad2xtreme
You now have the Corporate America Republican party brainwashing the bulk of the lower class into believing that Democrats are simply about give away all your tax dollars to social programs and free loaders.

That's not brainwashing its reality. Not to mention the Democratic party has kept the black community in general in a modern day economic slavery. They buy votes basically all the while holding them down in poverty. And anytime a black man calls them on it he is attacked. Americans aren't in general racist, we would love the black community to assimilate and pull themselves up and become folk we would be happy to have as neighbors, but the left will NEVER let that happen and its a shame they and some educated like you quadextreme fail to see that. I don't think you have ever owned or managed a business judging by your comments. When this country starts running like a business instead of a welfare household then there is hope, but americans have changed so I have given up. I have lived in third world countries so I am aware of worker exploitation and how economies really work. Ours is broken and unions, socialist policies, declining work ethic and lazy people are a big part of the blame. The two party system needs to go away I agree, but modern day communism is not the answer, and believe me we are going that direction whether you see it or not.

Eliminate the IRS, eliminate income tax, institute a small corporate tax(not LLCs or small businesses) and institute a national sales tax that no one is exempt from(churches, non for profit, everyone pays). There will be no tax evasion. Deport all illegals, restrict work visas. Limit all social benefits to 6 months maximum and one cannot reapply for 5 years after receipt of, including unemployment benefits. Offer all social benefit recipients jobs previously taken by illegals and those with visas(dairy farms, produce farms, chinese restaurant cooks). Then they can work, and create childcare jobs, and will be too tired at night to rob rape and pillage.

If you did those things you watch the economy turn hard, including the middle class.

Reign in some other entities like the EPA. Do some deregulation as Regan said "get the government on our side and off our back" and the business climate will improve greatly and things will really turn around.

And btw I am a libertarian not republican.

[motomadman]

And CNCguy is right about being over taxed. A couple making $50,000 pays about $500 in income tax. That same couple starts a business and makes $100,000 and they pay about $17,000 in taxes. That really encourages people to risk their life savings to start a business doesn't it.

[quad2xtreme]

motomadman,

Since you made assumptions about me, I should just state I've started and managed two successful companies and currently manage a division. My major was accounting and I minored in economics. As they say, 50% of all doctors graduated in the bottom of their class...I graduated in the top 5% of all accounting students graduating from US colleges in 1989. I was raised in poor mining towns in Western PA. I grew up poor. My dad wasn't even a miner. I worked my way through college, did not receive a dime from my parents, and thank the government for being there to provide some guaranteed student loans that have all been repaid.

I have 19 engineers who depend on me to manage the financial aspects of the group. I must understand the financial landscape of both the private and government sectors. I have to study government spending and responsible for keeping critical government services running even when you hear about a government shutdown. I've never lost an employee or job within my group in the 7 years I've been managing it while the company and industry have lost 18% of its employees. The lowest paid person in my group makes $95k...with a high school education BTW. The average income is $125K. My division has never lost money in any quarter. I am in the top 135 employees in a company of 6,500 in a high tech industry.

I didn't bring race into the equation because I don't think blacks or any minorities are causing the decline of middle class America. Outsourcing and automation are the main causes. Many low to moderate level positions were and are being replaced by automation. This is a sad fact of business that means lots more folks are unemployed or underemployed (meaning they took big pay cuts to find other jobs). Too many middle income positions are being outsourced. This has led to more unemployment and underemployment. All of this has eroded the tax base. Congress has never made any progress to correct the tax base issue (who pays for the loss in taxes). What Congress has accomplished is agreeing to continue borrowing money to fund the difference. The democrats had the crazy notion we would borrow and spend our way out of this. It didn't happen. Folks have learned to cut back and will be hard pressed to go crazy spending on personal borrowed dollars. The amazing thing during all this hardship is that people are working themselves out of debt by cutting back and saving. This isn't helping with demand for goods.

What is going to force the demand for employee pay increases once you solve the tax and employment issues with your ideas? Why wouldn't these companies continue to increase automation and use cheaper foreign labor? What new industry are you going to create here in the US that our companies couldn't duplicate in foreign lands instead?

[quad2xtreme]

Originally posted by motomadman
And CNCguy is right about being over taxed. A couple making $50,000 pays about $500 in income tax. That same couple starts a business and makes $100,000 and they pay about $17,000 in taxes. That really encourages people to risk their life savings to start a business doesn't it.

Wouldn't they be taxed at 10% up to the first 17,000 which would be $1,700 in taxes plus 15% for the remaining $33,000 = $4950. Granted they will have various deductions which will lower this amount. It is still much higher than $500. And this is just for federal taxes. They will still pay state and other payroll, retirement, and unemployment taxes too.

[motomadman]

Originally posted by quad2xtreme
Wouldn't they be taxed at 10% up to the first 17,000 which would be $1,700 in taxes plus 15% for the remaining $33,000 = $4950. Granted they will have various deductions which will lower this amount. It is still much higher than $500. And this is just for federal taxes. They will still pay state and other payroll, retirement, and unemployment taxes too.

The numbers I quoted are real and from an actual couple with 2 kids. One year at 50k employed, 100k the next self employed. As a manager I'm sure you know self employed folk pay more in taxes than those making the exact same amount working for others. And don't take offense to this but "keeping critical government services running", or keeping a business afloat that does business with the government is quite different from keeping a private enterprise profitable. Private businesses that receive no state, federal or local backing have to play by real world rules and make a sustainable profit and cannot run a tab, nor can our customers run a tab.

You seem very excited to increase the tax base. They pour our tax money down the drain like water. Roughly 40% of every tax dollar paid goes towards interest towards the debt. That is criminal and I'm sorry if I am not thrilled to pay them more because I know exactly where it goes. You may not of heard but there is a lot of noise about a tax revolt on the horizon. And no the dems did not learn their lesson. They say the spending did not work because they did not spend enough. And they are preparing another 1T plus stimulus as we speak. We need some tar and feathers, but the sad thing is Americans vote these people in. Our founding fathers warned us of this. Its the reason we have the right to bear arms, also the reason we have the electoral college. They said the average American is not smart enough to elect a competent president, but they hoped they would be smart enough to recognize tyrants and remove them by force if necessary. And I mean intelligence not education. There are many people with masters degrees in this country that don't have the common sense to pour piss out of a boot.

[quad2xtreme]

Originally posted by motomadman
The numbers I quoted are real and from an actual couple with 2 kids. One year at 50k employed, 100k the next self employed. As a manager I'm sure you know self employed folk pay more in taxes than those making the exact same amount working for others. And don't take offense to this but "keeping critical government services running", or keeping a business afloat that does business with the government is quite different from keeping a private enterprise profitable. Private businesses that receive no state, federal or local backing have to play by real world rules and make a sustainable profit and cannot run a tab, nor can our customers run a tab.

You seem very excited to increase the tax base. They pour our tax money down the drain like water. Roughly 40% of every tax dollar paid goes towards interest towards the debt. That is criminal and I'm sorry if I am not thrilled to pay them more because I know exactly where it goes. You may not of heard but there is a lot of noise about a tax revolt on the horizon. And no the dems did not learn their lesson. They say the spending did not work because they did not spend enough. And they are preparing another 1T plus stimulus as we speak. We need some tar and feathers, but the sad thing is Americans vote these people in. Our founding fathers warned us of this. Its the reason we have the right to bear arms, also the reason we have the electoral college. They said the average American is not smart enough to elect a competent president, but they hoped they would be smart enough to recognize tyrants and remove them by force if necessary. And I mean intelligence not education. There are many people with masters degrees in this country that don't have the common sense to pour piss out of a boot.


Maybe this simplification will help:

Govt Spending = Tax collections

Our government spending must equal tax collections to have a balanced budget. If not,

Govt Spending = Tax Collections + Deficit.

This is just for the current year. In reality, it is:

Govt spending including prior year borrowing payments = tax collections + current borrowing.

We have a huge deficit because our government has been providing services that it has not covered in tax collections. It is still borrowing now because it is still spending more than it collects. In order to have a balanced budget and pay back what we already owe, somebody has to fund the government (we fund our government through taxes) or the spending must drastically decrease. My point is that you can eliminate welfare and the government spending won't go down enough to cover the deficit and borrowing. These welfare folks that we now have working in low paying jobs will not increase the tax collections either. Your point was a $50k couple in this country only pay in $500 and you think this is too much. These two kids you mention are getting an education in the public school system. This alone costs more than $500 to provide. I am sure of this because if 25 kids were in a class room and their parents made $50k a year, then their parents would pay a total of $12,500 in taxes according to your estimate. I am sure that teacher alone is paid more than that for teaching them all year. Now these same folks have access to libraries, roads, government buildings, national forests, military protection, police protection and such all for $500 a year. Seems like a bargain. So back to the welfare folks since I got focused on this $50k couple with 2 kids. The 2 parents we just got off welfare are now making...let's go higher than minimum wage. Let's give them a whopping $10 an hour. So now each of them makes $20k a year for a family income of $40k. I can only assume they will pay less than $500 in taxes. So in reality, all these welfare folks with jobs still won't be paying into the tax system.

The government isn't wasting your tax dollars simply because you pay in and they are still running up a deficit. It means they are providing services that you aren't covering. Ah yes, the government is inefficient. It isn't that inefficient though. All those pork barrel programs are a small percentage too. You know what is missing now that used to there? Loads of middle class jobs paying the taxes. I am not saying the tax rate needs to go up...I am saying the jobs that used to be there that provided these people the opportunity to pay the taxes needs to be there. We can't have everyone dropping below $50k a year, not paying taxes, and receiving benefits.

Work the math. It really doesn't seem like you're trying.

And yes, this isn't even a fair argument any more. I am using your false numbers against you to strengthen my point.

[motomadman]

Actually the one child old enough goes to a private school at $3,000 a year, which is a huge financial sacrifice. There are only 6 kids in the class and they started reading and doing multiplication by midway thru kindergarten. Parents must volunteer at least 40 hours at that school each year as well. The public school system on the other hand, another fine example of unions and the fed gvt (dept of education) ruining our country.

I see the corruption, arrogance, protectionism, and mismanagement of the government everyday chief. You cant pull the wool over my eyes.

"Police protection"...LOL

[motomadman]

Here is a receipt for your tax dollars. Only in America do unemployed people eat like kings.

[KKiowaTJ]

I make more money being a full time career college student than i can working. It pays for everything and I'm gonna milk this worthless obamanation until its over. He keeps giving handouts, I'm not gonna pass up free money and only a fool would turn it down. Why buy the cow, The milk is free...

If the country fails, Fine with me. All my assets are paid for including house. Hell my jeep is worth more than most peoples houses. I am that guy who uses the food stamp card and gets into my high dollar crawler or Cadillac. If it pisses people off, So be it to me its a joke like this country is.

If i was to work, I would make less net income every month. I have searched for jobs and most come out under what I'm getting for free. Why would i waste my time 40 hours a week when i wont benefit? The maintenance, Gas, And time wasted to work is simply not worth it when i have better things to do.

Some idiots wanted "hope and change" in this country, Well ya got it, Hope your happy, I know i am. Go ahead and flame on, Not going to hurt my feelings at all. When this **** storm is over ill go back to working etc, But until then, Not gonna happen.

[motomadman]

Milk it like a swole up holstein.

[chris p.]

wow,talk about a pissing match.yes,i work for a union and have for the last 25 yrs and it's out in the field,in a trade.i have seen both sides of the fence go down hill FAST.i'm in ct. and we are constantly threatened with the right to work laws being brought to our state.what we have to deal with on a daily basis is union mechanicals giving our work to non-union and them telling us that we make too much.....yet they use our rate (that's included in their bid package)to give the work out rat.then what happens next is the bid winning sub will skim off the top and hand it to one of their subs who in turn does the same and on down the line until it reaches some poor soul who has to work 16 hour days for maybe $10 an hour just to break even.YES it's frustrating but this is life or so they say.we also have P.L.A's(presidential labor agreements) and the davis-bacon acts under threat.if both are dismissed like the non-union coalition would like we will ALL be working for whatever they want to pay us.do the non-union like working on a pla and receiving our rate ??? of course they do but yet they fail to realize that when these laws are gone so is the rate.i'm not going to bash them for wanting to make a living...we all have to,nor will i praise a flawed union system. just my 2 cents without getting in TOO deep. lol.

[quad2xtreme]

Originally posted by motomadman
Actually the one child old enough goes to a private school at $3,000 a year, which is a huge financial sacrifice. There are only 6 kids in the class and they started reading and doing multiplication by midway thru kindergarten. Parents must volunteer at least 40 hours at that school each year as well. The public school system on the other hand, another fine example of unions and the fed gvt (dept of education) ruining our country.

I see the corruption, arrogance, protectionism, and mismanagement of the government everyday chief. You cant pull the wool over my eyes.

"Police protection"...LOL

You're a factless, rambling, ignorant debater who moves from subject to subject.

The message is simple. The government and unions have provided a middle class America for at least 70 years. The laws and regulations changed to allow US-based companies to merge into a global labor market. Global labor is cheaper so our jobs went overseas. It is driving out the middle class tax base structure. This is the biggest group of Americans who was able to fund government spending. Of course, these wars have been catastrophic to our economy. The fall of unions will only result in companies getting additional cheap labor. It will not result in better living for Americans. My last statement is this country was better off when the government and unions were about protecting American interests. Now that we've entered a global economy, we are being drug down to the living standards of 3rd world countries.

[derekhonda]

Originally posted by quad2xtreme
You're a factless, rambling, ignorant debater who moves from subject to subject.

The message is simple. The government and unions have provided a middle class America for at least 70 years.

Ok, I have generally stayed out of this topic, but let me chime in.


Which paycheck does the government issue you?

So the union is your job?

Thats really weird, cause at some point of time, I thought a business created all of our jobs. You know, making a product or offering a service. Hmmm, wonder where our line of thinking got so scewed.


Me personally, I live in indiana. We just went RTW. I'm excited about it. Unions had a time, they did many great things as far as safety and liveable wages. Now you have OSHA for safety, and livable wages have increased to $60 an hour to do nothing (well, atleast some union shops around here). Time for the scales to shift back, and no, I don't think the middle class will disappear because of it. What I think will happen is people will actually start earning their paycheck instead of being issued it through union contracts. Now everybody, get back to work, breaks over.

[chronicsmoke]

Originally posted by derekhonda
Now everybody, get back to work, breaks over.

Yessir :( lol

[quad2xtreme]

Originally posted by derekhonda
Ok, I have generally stayed out of this topic, but let me chime in.


Which paycheck does the government issue you?

So the union is your job?

Thats really weird, cause at some point of time, I thought a business created all of our jobs. You know, making a product or offering a service. Hmmm, wonder where our line of thinking got so scewed.


Me personally, I live in indiana. We just went RTW. I'm excited about it. Unions had a time, they did many great things as far as safety and liveable wages. Now you have OSHA for safety, and livable wages have increased to $60 an hour to do nothing (well, atleast some union shops around here). Time for the scales to shift back, and no, I don't think the middle class will disappear because of it. What I think will happen is people will actually start earning their paycheck instead of being issued it through union contracts. Now everybody, get back to work, breaks over.

I don't work for the government and I don't work for a union. My job is protected though from dealing with highly sensitive government matters...it can't be outsourced due to national security concerns.

The middle class is not going to completely disappear but it is going to be cut in half. Now that we shifted to a global labor force...there is no going back. Unions will go away as companies need this to compete in a world market now. They can't afford to pay middle class wages for jobs that are being done overseas for less. With the right leadership, our country could go back to holding the world hostage to our resources but this absolutely isn't going to happen. Corporate America put our country on a course and there is no turning back. We are not in a depression...our economy is "right sizing" itself to a global economy. All I am saying is it isn't going to back where we have a huge middle class. The majority of folks better get used to being poor and their children not having better opportunities than they did. People seem to have the idea that the world can just keep growing and getting better for each generation. Truth is it can't. Better days for the majority of our citizens are over.

Like I said, I don't have a solution. I am just providing some info on why you're screwed. Middle class jobs were "falsely" created by a protectionist government and unions. The protectionist government policies are pretty much gone and the unions are on their way out. Wages will go down. The big issue now is government spending far exceeds tax collection so the country is borrowing like crazy. One thing I know is you can't borrow to pay for services. I also know that everyone working in low paying jobs doesn't generate enough taxes to cover the borrowing for services. The government has to cut spending drastically. This will mean lots more people on unemployment. This will cause more demand for jobs and lower supply so it will drive down the pay scale even more.

[motomadman]

Protectionism is a form of corruption. I have experience with it first hand. It KILLS the business spirit and competitive business environment that creates jobs.

I assumed you never managed a company because of your unrealistic view of business. However seeing as you directly or indirectly receive funding or do business with the govt relating to security work, I can see why you choose to view things as you do. But the problem is you see the private sector in the same terms. However its your opinion, and your entitled. And its not rambling, its about work ethic, self reliance and personal responsibility. You know the things that made this country great.

[motomadman]

The reason for my passion on this subject is because I and many fellow business owners I know are fed up. Fed up with paying hundreds of dollars for a help wanted classified ad only to get no response. Yet lazy people are sitting at home doing nothing and getting paid. Tired of the endless regulation and corruption. Tired of working 12 hours a day 6 days a week to get ahead, and running into roadblocks at every corner caused by the establishment. The business climate is worse than ever and people are just cashing out and closing up shop because they are tired of it. Its sad.

[quad2xtreme]

I am not trying to sway folks into supporting or not supporting unions. It is my opinion that as the unions go away, there will be more jobs available in the US albeit lower paying. I am fine with someone who believes that more jobs will result and they will be higher paying. From my economics background, I don't understand the logic but everyone is entitled to their beliefs.

I am not trying to sway folks into voting Democrat or Republican this election. Neither can prop up the "false" economy that was created during the decades of favorable trade policies and forcing employers to hire American workers at higher wages than the global market would have allowed if employers could have gone to these markets before. Companies outsource to save labor costs. They will continue to do so until the labor cost at home is the same or better. Our government has drastically reduced its involvement in protectionism of America jobs through policy changes that now allow American companies to outsource. For good or bad, I am saying this will ultimately result in more jobs in the US but they will be lower paying to match the global pay scale.

You are correct that I really don't have skin in the game. I already made my money during the good times (private industry by the way) and I am set for life. My simple advice is for people to plan living on less income and government services as our economy and government rightsizes itself. If you think now is the time to run out and buy a bigger house because you think the job market is on an upswing and higher paying jobs are coming along, then do it. Buy that big house now while the housing market is down.

If you place any value in what I've written, you will realize why so many big houses are already in foreclosure and why the economy cannot go back to its previous state. My belief is people should not be going out on a limb and borrowing to live beyond their means. Stay out of the stock market!

I've said what I can and spent more time than I have on this. I've been doing things right all my life. My wife and I don't have a big RV...that we could easily pay cash for. My wife doesn't stay home which she could easily do. Believe me, we live humbly and save for rainy days. I am an overachiever and always have been. I lost my first wife due to a workaholic nature. 2nd wife enjoys finer things in life so she appreciates it more and has her own interests to keep her busy while I am invested in my work. What I don't want is my family or the government coming to me for a handout when their ways fail. I hate the sad face and the expression "Sorry, I didn't know".

Good luck folks. Enjoy the upcoming election rhetoric and remember to take it lightly because in reality, you really don't have much control over the political landscape or economy. You can only try to foresee the future and plan accordingly. Peace!

[chris p.]

quad2extreme,lots of valid points but not too many of us are set for life.congradulations on your hard work and enjoy yourself.seems everyone has gotten off the subject of r.t.w. i like the idea of collective bargaining.that is,being ABLE to negotiate with contractors who want to work with you even though it doesn't always go smooth.do i want to be dictated to as far as what i will earn ? no.do we get to hang around for hours as the mis-informed put it ?? no.you either produce or you're GONE !! plain and simple.those days are gone.we have to work hard or the contractor isn't making his profit and leaves the state making non-union stronger.this topic is like asking which of your children you like better !! there's no easy answer. ENJOY !!!!!!!

[Quad18star]

I want to know, if all union workers would be willing to take a cut in their renumeration and benefits, would companies be willing to adjust their prices of products to reflect the cut in pay? I HIGHLY doubt it. Companies are out to make money .... if they increase prices, that's money in their pockets. Shareholders always want more more more because it adds value to their portfolio.

You cannot cut workers wages , yet maintain current levels of pricing on every day essentials ... because by doing so you're bringing the majority of the population into a lower class that they are currently in.

Another major reason for companies moving their operations overseas is due to the lack of environmental regulations, health and safety regulations, and workers rights. Governments in the USA and Canada ahve put such a tight rope around companies necks when it comes to environmental issues , that it's cheaper for them to go to places like China to manufacture products because environmental regulations are next to nil. Why spend multi-millions to conform to regulations , when you can move your operation to a country that does not care how much pollution you put in the air or what you dump into the surrounding rivers.

If a company can save a dime, they'll put hundreds of workers out of work and not blink. Just google and see what Caterpillar has done in Southern Ontario Canada last week. Disgraceful !!!

[motomadman]

Governor Walker Wins.

Funny thing is a year and a half ago he passed legislation allowing union members in public sector jobs to "opt out" of being union members. There were 62,000 union jobs and union members then, today there are 28,000 members. What does that tell you? Over half of the current union members in Wisconsin said let me the HECK out! OOOOOH Freedom, a once great American Liberty.

[IdahoMX]

I live it a right to work state, Basically the worker has no rights. They dont even have to give you a lunch brake. They can fire you without any reason. Theres a ton of negatives but basically right to work hands over all the laws to the employer.

[derekhonda]

Originally posted by IdahoMX
I live it a right to work state, Basically the worker has no rights. They dont even have to give you a lunch brake. They can fire you without any reason. Theres a ton of negatives but basically right to work hands over all the laws to the employer.

No, Right to Work hands the employers their company back...where it belongs.

Be a good worker, show up, do your job, collect your paycheck, it isn't difficult. And I'd call BS on the lunch break thing, does YOUR boss do this to you, or is this a friend of a friend deal? Doesn't really matter anyways, if your state went right to work and the first thing your boss did was take away cafeteria priveledges I don't believe...well...I just don't believe it.

[Quad18star]

Originally posted by derekhonda
No, Right to Work hands the employers their company back...where it belongs.


And when the company takes away something like a Safety Card , which was once agreed upon by a company and a union, and 2 guys get killed ... does the company take responsibility? That's exactly what happened here.... the company wanted the Union out so that can "control" their business .... they eliminated the Safety Card in which guys could report hazards/concerns. Less than a year later 2 guys are killed on the job over something that could have been prevented. If you think Unions are a thing of the past and useless , think again and ask yourself that question when you're at the funeral for your coworkers. Unions help protect workers when the company turns a blind eye to safety.

[motomadman]

Quadstar Thank God we do not live in a socialist welfare state like Canada. There is still hope here in the US, and I am not talking about Obama hope. People can spit liberal talking points like "safety" all day long. We have so many lawyers and regulations here to make sure unsafe employers pay dearly. We will keep our liberty, our guns and our right to pursue happiness. You can keep your AGENDA 21.

[IdahoMX]

You can believe it or not. It does not give the employee anything. I actually have thought about moving out of this state becouse of these wonderfull laws. They also can adjust your pay whenever they want to as well. Its all right in the Idaho State labor laws. This is copy and pasted from a section of a handbook.
IDAHO LAW DOES NOT REQUIRE
• Vacation, holiday, severance or sick pay
• A discharge notice or a reason for discharge
• Rest periods, breaks, lunch breaks, holidays
off or vacations
• Premium pay rates for weekends or holidays
worked
• Pay raises or fringe benefits
• A limit on the number of hours an employee can work in a week

[IdahoMX]

They fed us that same line of BS when trying to pass the law here, How it helps the employee and such. What it really does is hand all the power to the company and the employee has to take it. I rember the adds on tv and such claiming all the things that have been discussed here.Just how do you suppose they are footing all the money for advertisement?? One of the really neat things is they can actually just walk up to you and fire you for no reason. Say a boss doesnt like you he doesnt have to have any written reason or cause to let you go. Has never happened to me but I have heard about it.

[derekhonda]

A lot of the things you keep mentioning are in no way even associated with RTW. Indiana is an "at will" employment state, as it sounds like your state. That just means the boss can hire, fire, give pay raises, make you come in early or stay late, at his will.

And again, I have no idea who you are working for or what your boss is like, but as I said in my first post, show up, do your job, collect your paycheck and go home. If you do that you'll never have anything to worry about. And if that isn't good enough for the boss and he was to fire me then **** him if you were really a good employee you'll get another job easily.

[derekhonda]

And quadstar, we have a thing called osha down here. I'm guessing you have a similar regulatory organization. They can be reached, notified, and brought out to the company by any worker, in addition to any annual or sporadic 'check ups' they may want to do. Did anyone try to get ahold of anything like that? Don't always have to have a union....

[IdahoMX]

Not really trying to bash anyone, Just trying to save another state with this so called right for the employer to do whatever they want to. Im telling you the laws flat out suck. If your boss doesnt happen to like you he can let you go. I have not been fired.You are basing your opinions on a great boss, what if you get a crappy boss, should they be allowed to let you go based on the opinions of 1 person. Should they be able to hire you on then lower your pay after you quit another job? Believe me or not, The right to work sucks *****

[derekhonda]

You are still talking about at will employment, not RTW.


And yes, you're boss should be able to do that. Say there is a company with 50 people. 1 boss, 4 managers, and 45 assemblers. You're boss just finds out a customer that is responsible for 20% of the orders just goes out of business. The responsible thing to do (assuming no new business can be found immediately) would be to lay off 20% of the work force. This would involve 9 assemblers and probably a manager. Sorry, that's just the way it works. you're job is absolutely not more important than the company itself, and if he has to continue to pay for those 10 additional jobs that are no longer needed, the company will go out of business, and all 50 people will be unemployed not just 10.

You wanna know how to combat that? Become the boss. Mortgage your house to the gills, sell all your toys, car, and possesions, go beg borrow and steal money from every family member and friend you can remember. Find a niche, open up a company, hire quality workers, follow all the regulations that both city, state, and the fed make you do. Spend time with an attorney, draw up your LLC papers or incorporate, etc etc. Then, you'll be that one lucky sob that has all the power and do whatever they want including limiting lunch breaks. Oh yeah, don't forget to invite the union in right away so they can help you run the company.

[motomadman]

Originally posted by derekhonda


You wanna know how to combat that? Become the boss. Mortgage your house to the gills, sell all your toys, car, and possesions, go beg borrow and steal money from every family member and friend you can remember. Find a niche, open up a company, hire quality workers, follow all the regulations that both city, state, and the fed make you do. Spend time with an attorney, draw up your LLC papers or incorporate, etc etc. Then, you'll be that one lucky sob that has all the power and do whatever they want including limiting lunch breaks.

Most people will never understand the enormous risk and personal/family sacrifice it takes to open a business. Nor will they ever understand the crushing stress involved in calling the shots. It can be painful, sleep depriving, and can take years off your life. There is a reason most people will never take that leap even if offered the opportunity, and if you did you would understand.

If you don't like your boss you have the choice to hit the road. And he should have the same choice. It has been that way for thousands of years. A business will never stay afloat firing good employees. Nor will they prosper by keeping whiny little deadbeats in the mix.

[IdahoMX]

States like Oregon have more of a equal playing field when it comes to employee/company relationship. My state is already screwed by these laws. I am sure am sure if you own a company you think these laws are great. Who wouldnt want to be handed the ability to do what ever they want to whom ever they want and not have to take any responsability for it.

[derekhonda]

Originally posted by IdahoMX
States like Oregon have more of a equal playing field when it comes to employee/company relationship. My state is already screwed by these laws. I am sure am sure if you own a company you think these laws are great. Who wouldnt want to be handed the ability to do what ever they want to whom ever they want and not have to take any responsability for it.

You just don't get it.

[Fred55]

Originally posted by IdahoMX
States like Oregon have more of a equal playing field when it comes to employee/company relationship. My state is already screwed by these laws. I am sure am sure if you own a company you think these laws are great. Who wouldnt want to be handed the ability to do what ever they want to whom ever they want and not have to take any responsability for it.

If you are the owner of the business, why shouldn't you be able to choose who works for you? The government has no place telling people who they should hire or who they can/can't get rid of.

[chronicsmoke]

I think corporations and governments should abide by certain rules, but as Fred said above, if you're the owner of a company, you should be allowed to fire/hire whoever you want, unless the reason is soley based on discrimination. (racism, sexism, ect)

I work for a municipal government and I can say that if it were private there would be some changes made to the staff, that's for sure. Lazy workers are given 10000 chances before they are terminated. I'm happy I get treated well, but there is room for improvement. Small local businesses couldn't survive if they had to give every employee that many chances.

[Fred55]

Originally posted by chronicsmoke
I think corporations and governments should abide by certain rules, but as Fred said above, if you're the owner of a company, you should be allowed to fire/hire whoever you want, unless the reason is soley based on discrimination. (racism, sexism, ect)

I work for a municipal government and I can say that if it were private there would be some changes made to the staff, that's for sure. Lazy workers are given 10000 chances before they are terminated. I'm happy I get treated well, but there is room for improvement. Small local businesses couldn't survive if they had to give every employee that many chances.

I think the difference needs to be whether the company is privately owned or a private company that is publicly traded.

If it is privately owned, they are free to do whatever they want.

If the company is publicly traded then the board, and shareholders would have to issue an order for layoffs, etc. If a worker is breaking rules which have been told to everyone, then a manager would have reason to fire somebody without approval from higher up.

[IdahoMX]

The whole reason why you are supposed to be written up and such is to prevent racism,or discrimination. But by you if I own a company I should be able to fire them becouse I dont like mexicans or women or Black people. Its my company so I should be able to do what ever I want to and should not have to awnser to anybody about the decisions I would make correct?

[chronicsmoke]

Originally posted by IdahoMX
The whole reason why you are supposed to be written up and such is to prevent racism,or discrimination. But by you if I own a company I should be able to fire them becouse I dont like mexicans or women or Black people. Its my company so I should be able to do what ever I want to and should not have to awnser to anybody about the decisions I would make correct?

To be fair, if it was your company and you were racist or sexist (or both)you wouldn't hire a mexican or a woman anyway, certainly not a mexican woman, right?:p

[IdahoMX]

If you are just a crappy employee then there is no reason why you couldnt wright sombody up, Show documentation, Then fire them. A 3 right up rule is fair, Not I dont like you your fired

[derekhonda]

Originally posted by IdahoMX
If you are just a crappy employee then there is no reason why you couldnt wright sombody up, Show documentation, Then fire them. A 3 right up rule is fair, Not I dont like you your fired

I'd fire people for terrible grammar. Also, there is a key difference between employee, and employer. It changes everything in the context of your sentence. And I know you tried both wright, and right, but you were wrong.

And as you can tell, I'm completely over this thread. The future of business is in RTW states, you need not look any further than the Wisconsin recall election to see that.

[ben300]

Originally posted by quad2xtreme
I would agree there are productivity issues in this country but it doesn't equate to the real problem...and a big productivity increase would not fix the problem either...but would help some. Once you understand that working hard and being productive at minimum wage level jobs doesn't mean much to the economy.

Let's put the issue of welfare being the source of the problem to rest once and for all based on the following:

You could eliminate all the money spent by the federal government on welfare and training programs and there still wouldn't be a balanced budget...not even close. Now put every single welfare recipient to work and the problem still isn't fixed. The reason is that the "new" jobs are lower paying jobs and people working for minimum wage don't pay taxes. The truth is that families falling into lower class do not cover the cost of the services they receive. Even scarier that today in this country 2 parents each working 2 jobs at minimum wage still puts you into the category of getting more services than you pay for (assuming you have 2 children).

The US was always the most affluent nation with a "government protected" middle class. Corporate America had to deal with this injustice that required them to employ people at middle class jobs. We operated fine this way and it didn't cause trade issues with other counties. The government controlled imports and exports to protect the middle class. Corporate America gained control of the government so they could change the landscape (laws) which would allow outsourcing. What this led to was cheap labor (replacement of middle class jobs with lower paying people working in India). This led to a boom in the stock market due to all the high profits.

Now the benefits of this strategy are over. These companies still need to maintain growth to satisfy investors but there is no magic pill to further reduce costs and increase productivity. They can hope for minor improvement at best. The bigger problem now is that the bulk of our tax base was paid by these middle class jobs. Our middle class has shrunk to 1/2 of what it was and no longer generates the tax base it did. We can't continue operating like the rich country we were with the bulk of our society now in the lower class (not paying much in taxes).

Americans are used to some magical fix to everything. So far there isn't anything on the table that is going to work. We got ahead due to industrialization once and technology the second time. Outsourcing led to a false belief of inflated profits and a rich economy but that didn't turn out to be the case. The question is what is the next big fix that is going to keep America ahead? The sad truth is neither party has a plan. Sometimes you can't fix what's been destroyed.


Originally posted by quad2xtreme
By the way, I usually just stay quiet about all this political stuff. I don't have a solution and it really doesn't matter to me if we have a democrat or republican President in office because neither will solve the problem. At most, one will make it slightly less worse than the other. The only real fix is for our government to regain control from Corporate America (and Corporate America has gained additional strength in the last 4 years...in fact, now even foreign corporations can buy a say in America).

I spent the 1st 25 years of my life being poor and spent the last 20 years working my *** off getting into upper middle class. Nothing scares me more than thinking about falling back into lower class America. There isn't anything dishonorable about being poor...it just isn't nearly as fun and easy as being middle class. With so many middle class jobs already outsourced, I now compete with more driven, smart people than ever who would be willing to do my job for a lot less. At this point, it is only my own company leadership that is involved in protecting our jobs from more outsourcing or just flat out replacing us all with displaced workers willing to do our jobs for less. BTW, I have never worked for a union in my life. I've worked for Price Waterhouse, Legg Mason, 2 large law firms (>500 attorneys alone), and 2 high-tech companies. My current employer has 6,500 employees...down from 8,000 a couple years ago.

The sad truth is that unions helped create the power balance the middle class had in politics. It was the shear # of people in the middle class that helped controlled the voting. With the weakening of the middle class and the unions, these two combined don't have the voting power they did. There is a big shift in political power as the bulk of voting goes to the lower class now (if they show up to vote). Why do you think there is so much redistricting going on? You now have the Corporate America Republican party brainwashing the bulk of the lower class into believing that Democrats are simply about give away all your tax dollars to social programs and free loaders. The irony of this is that the lower class doesn't even pay in enough taxes to cover their own services let alone worry about what part of their taxes are helping to contribute to free loaders. The good news for the Republican party is that irony does exist. The very ones getting screwed the most are often in favor of what is happening to them.

BTW, voting Democrat isn't going to help either. Corporate America Democrat party is trying to convince you that the rich get richer while you get poorer so you should vote against Republicans. In either case, you are still voting for Corporate America. Corporate America doesn't care who is in charge as long as they have the final say. Companies don't take sides with candidates. They give them both money and remind them how they got there.


as much as i believe you are generally left of center leaning on most issues, and i consider my self an independent/possible libertarian......this was written very well, have excellent points, and honestly, i pretty much agree with.......as much as i am an engineer and hate labor unions and believe their only purpose is now to get large number of employees to vote for specific politicians

but this is also an axample of intelligence vs ignorance as stated below


Originally posted by CNC_guy
All of what you said is fine and good. Doesn't change the fact that when I go to Wal-Mart after a 16hr day to pick up a few items and the couple in front of me with better clothes on are loading a cart full up on crap food (with a baby in the cart) and pay with welfare that I get extremely frustrated. Then, they have enough energy to race and giggle to the car. By that time I'm boiling mad.

Sorry, I would much rather these two be working a minimum wage job and trying to work up the ladder than be mooching off the government. They may not be helping the economy but at least they wouldn't be taking out of a pot they aren't putting anything into.

Odds are they will be mooching this time next year and little Johnny that was in the cart will mooch as soon as he's old enough.

[Quad18star]

Originally posted by derekhonda
And quadstar, we have a thing called osha down here. I'm guessing you have a similar regulatory organization. They can be reached, notified, and brought out to the company by any worker, in addition to any annual or sporadic 'check ups' they may want to do. Did anyone try to get ahold of anything like that? Don't always have to have a union....

We have the same thing here .... but it's the Ministry of Labour (MOL). The MOL cannot be at the mine site everyday of the week and they need to be contacted and scheduled to come out. What was found during the MOL investigation after the deaths, was that the Company had received emails from the Union Safety Stewards, they received emails from their own supervisor advising that there was a serious issue. On 3 occasions the supervisor put up barricades to keep workers out , and on 3 occasions someone up higher from him removed the barricades. This is all something that came out during the year long investigation. This company (Vale) has a bad reputation for ignoring Health and Safety and this is where the Saftey Card was a huge benefit because it was recorded and someone in management had to respond with actions being taken to ensure safety in a timely manner.

Most Unions are tied to multi-national companies ... it's very rare that you see a Mom and Pop business that is Unionized because they hold so few employees. And when you have large scale operations there is more of a chance that the business will change hands several times over a workers' career of 30 years. What Unions help do, is ensure that when a new company rolls into town after a coporate buyout that these workers maintain the levels of compensation that the workers have worked to attain.

Look at what Caterpillar did recently with Electro-Motive after their buyout. Caterpillar locked the workers out and told them that they only way they could come back to work is with a 50% pay cut. Caterpillar tried to break the Union because they do not want Unions . The guys stuck together and said it's Bull*****. Caterpillar closed the doors and said it was the workers fault for the plant closing because they would not accept the offer. I say it was a dirty f'king move on Cat's part because they bought a business that was profitable under previous management , but because they're so f'king greedy they would rather put 460 people out of work so that they can make an extra buck.

[trick450r]

I find it particularly amusing that union workers pay "dues" to provide multiple people full time pay, and a fancy building or two to get fat in, in trade for making sure they get maximum pay. Excuse me but maybe you wouldn't need a raise if you didn't pay the dues!

Anybody see those msnbc reports from multiple automotive plants capturing UAW workers smoking weed and chugging back beers on their lunch break, IN THE UAW PARKING LOT ACROSS THE STREET!, whatever organization helped those fat lazy *******s keep their jobs needs to be ended!

[Quad18star]

Originally posted by trick450r
I find it particularly amusing that union workers pay "dues" to provide multiple people full time pay, and a fancy building or two to get fat in, in trade for making sure they get maximum pay. Excuse me but maybe you wouldn't need a raise if you didn't pay the dues!

Anybody see those msnbc reports from multiple automotive plants capturing UAW workers smoking weed and chugging back beers on their lunch break, IN THE UAW PARKING LOT ACROSS THE STREET!, whatever organization helped those fat lazy *******s keep their jobs needs to be ended!

Those workers were fired. Many companies have drug and alcohol policies that only apply if someone is injured on the job. A company cannot actually fire a person if they drink or smoke pot on their time off. Chrysler fired these workers because it was caught on tape and shown across the country ... it embarrassed the company ... but if the workers are off the clock during their lunch, a company cannot tell them what to do and cannot fire them for something they do on their personal time.

As far as Union dues, it goes a lot further than fancy buildings and max pay for the top brass. Union dues help out other brothers and sisters during lockouts by providing its workers with an income. It goes to pay for scholarships that are awarded to children of unionized workers. It also goes to help organizations within a community by making contributions to causes.

[derekhonda]

Originally posted by Quad18star
We have the same thing here .... but it's the Ministry of Labour (MOL). The MOL cannot be at the mine site everyday of the week and they need to be contacted and scheduled to come out. What was found during the MOL investigation after the deaths, was that the Company had received emails from the Union Safety Stewards, they received emails from their own supervisor advising that there was a serious issue. On 3 occasions the supervisor put up barricades to keep workers out , and on 3 occasions someone up higher from him removed the barricades. This is all something that came out during the year long investigation. This company (Vale) has a bad reputation for ignoring Health and Safety and this is where the Saftey Card was a huge benefit because it was recorded and someone in management had to respond with actions being taken to ensure safety in a timely manner.

Most Unions are tied to multi-national companies ... it's very rare that you see a Mom and Pop business that is Unionized because they hold so few employees. And when you have large scale operations there is more of a chance that the business will change hands several times over a workers' career of 30 years. What Unions help do, is ensure that when a new company rolls into town after a coporate buyout that these workers maintain the levels of compensation that the workers have worked to attain.

Look at what Caterpillar did recently with Electro-Motive after their buyout. Caterpillar locked the workers out and told them that they only way they could come back to work is with a 50% pay cut. Caterpillar tried to break the Union because they do not want Unions . The guys stuck together and said it's Bull*****. Caterpillar closed the doors and said it was the workers fault for the plant closing because they would not accept the offer. I say it was a dirty f'king move on Cat's part because they bought a business that was profitable under previous management , but because they're so f'king greedy they would rather put 460 people out of work so that they can make an extra buck.

I don't mean to keep beating a dead horse, but did they come out pre-workers death? I mean I know you say the need to be contacted, but all the workers saw a "danger keep out" sign put up, then taken back down, then put up, then take back down, then put up, then taken back down, and no one contacted them and scheduled a visit?

[derekhonda]

And I'm sure you're all bitter from the caterpillar story, I don't know about it, havn't read into it, but if it's as you say then that is pretty ****ty.

Side story: My grandfather started a trucking company in the 50's. It was 100 trucks strong with 3 terminals in the 70's and 80's. It was union, and trucking was 'regulated' at that time (means government sets the fee's trucking companies charge) So, being union wasn't really a big deal. Cause the union then lobbied for the government to raise rates, and then the union came to the company and bargained to raise wages...if that makes sense. Well, when de-regulation happened, the government no longer set rates and it was a flat out rate free fall.

Guess who suddenly wouldn't allow the wages to be cut along with the free falling rates? Any guesses? Guess how long it took the company to go under, even though a majority of the drivers were willing to stay on at a competitive, although lower, wage? Guess who wouldn't ok it? (note the need for RTW legislation HERE) And then somehow, the head union rep got my grandpas house, and my grandpa left the state.

So...yeah, not a big fan of unions, and I'll counter your greedy catapillar story with one that personally effected my family with greedy unions.

[motomadman]

Quadstar, Your not really Van Jones posing as a Canadian quad lover are you?

Unions and Socialism work out great long term. Take a look at Europe. The EU will split any day now. If they taught real history instead of liberalism in public schools today at least our kids might have some brains. And if they had to milk a cow once in a while instead of playing Xbox they might have a work ethic.

[Quad18star]

Originally posted by derekhonda
I don't mean to keep beating a dead horse, but did they come out pre-workers death? I mean I know you say the need to be contacted, but all the workers saw a "danger keep out" sign put up, then taken back down, then put up, then take back down, then put up, then taken back down, and no one contacted them and scheduled a visit?

MOL comes out on a monthly basis. They had been there in the weeks prior. This situation was a hang up in an ore pass. I won't get into ot full detail but basically it's a couple tons of broken rock hung up 2000 feet above that falls to a loading pocket underground. It's something that occurs on a regular basis in the mining world and the MOL has regulations in place on how to deal with it. What the worker and the supervisor warned, was that water was accumulating above the broken rock. When it let go, these guys were working underneath it to try and free it up because they were told they had to get in there and do it. Had the previous agreements between the company and union been followed, a systematic approach would have been undertaken to ensure that it was done safely. As much as anyone hates to admit, unions do look out for the health and safety of workers.

For the record, the MOL has laid charges against the company and the supervisor who took down the barricades. The company if found guilty can face $500 000 in fines . The supervisor if found guilty faces $250 000 in fines and 2 years in prison for the negligence.

[Quad18star]

Originally posted by derekhonda
And I'm sure you're all bitter from the caterpillar story, I don't know about it, havn't read into it, but if it's as you say then that is pretty ****ty.

Side story: My grandfather started a trucking company in the 50's. It was 100 trucks strong with 3 terminals in the 70's and 80's. It was union, and trucking was 'regulated' at that time (means government sets the fee's trucking companies charge) So, being union wasn't really a big deal. Cause the union then lobbied for the government to raise rates, and then the union came to the company and bargained to raise wages...if that makes sense. Well, when de-regulation happened, the government no longer set rates and it was a flat out rate free fall.

Guess who suddenly wouldn't allow the wages to be cut along with the free falling rates? Any guesses? Guess how long it took the company to go under, even though a majority of the drivers were willing to stay on at a competitive, although lower, wage? Guess who wouldn't ok it? (note the need for RTW legislation HERE) And then somehow, the head union rep got my grandpas house, and my grandpa left the state.

So...yeah, not a big fan of unions, and I'll counter your greedy catapillar story with one that personally effected my family with greedy unions.

Hate to hear about the luck your grandfather had .... but if more than half the workers wanted to work at half the wage, they could have had a vote to decertify the Union. Any worker can bring the motion before the Union, and if believed that they (the workers) have enough people to vote to throw out the Union, they can vote on it to decertify. This would have left the workers with their jobs at half the pay , and your grandfather with his business.

[Quad18star]

Originally posted by motomadman
Quadstar, Your not really Van Jones posing as a Canadian quad lover are you?

Unions and Socialism work out great long term. Take a look at Europe. The EU will split any day now. If they taught real history instead of liberalism in public schools today at least our kids might have some brains. And if they had to milk a cow once in a while instead of playing Xbox they might have a work ethic.

No idea who Van Jones is , honestly never heard the name before.

Are you saying , that because Canada has mostly Unionized workers, that we are a Socialist country who will fold?

If so, I have to laugh at that, since this country came out on top during the recession with many countries asking for our job creation model. We did not have 1/3 of our population collecting welfare ... in fact, we were creating jobs during the peak of the recession. So I really don't see how you link unions with socialism.

[derekhonda]

Originally posted by Quad18star
Hate to hear about the luck your grandfather had .... but if more than half the workers wanted to work at half the wage, they could have had a vote to decertify the Union. Any worker can bring the motion before the Union, and if believed that they (the workers) have enough people to vote to throw out the Union, they can vote on it to decertify. This would have left the workers with their jobs at half the pay , and your grandfather with his business.


I understand that's 'how' it is supposed to work, but think more 1970's - 1980's teamsters, jimmy hoffa, etc etc.

You probably wouldn't be voting against the union if you got home from work and two union reps were eating dinner with your wife in kids at your dining room table.

[trick450r]

Pot is federally illegal, it does not matter who's time your on...I know people in California who hold prescriptions whom have been fired well into employment for getting high on a break or two....your trying to tell me I can show up to work at Chrysler piss *** drunk as a non union worker and continue to put cars together for innocent people without any repercussions whether I get caught or not? Ummmm no.


Tell me, if your right, why do I get drug tested every 30 days VIA my employer?
And yes, I have seen multiple long standing employees get thrown out like yesterdays trash after a fail.

And on another note, those reports came up from multiple automotive plants, and no not everyone was fired.



Originally posted by Quad18star
Those workers were fired. Many companies have drug and alcohol policies that only apply if someone is injured on the job. A company cannot actually fire a person if they drink or smoke pot on their time off. Chrysler fired these workers because it was caught on tape and shown across the country ... it embarrassed the company ... but if the workers are off the clock during their lunch, a company cannot tell them what to do and cannot fire them for something they do on their personal time.

As far as Union dues, it goes a lot further than fancy buildings and max pay for the top brass. Union dues help out other brothers and sisters during lockouts by providing its workers with an income. It goes to pay for scholarships that are awarded to children of unionized workers. It also goes to help organizations within a community by making contributions to causes.

[trick450r]

Originally posted by IdahoMX
Not really trying to bash anyone, Just trying to save another state with this so called right for the employer to do whatever they want to. Im telling you the laws flat out suck. If your boss doesnt happen to like you he can let you go. I have not been fired.You are basing your opinions on a great boss, what if you get a crappy boss, should they be allowed to let you go based on the opinions of 1 person. Should they be able to hire you on then lower your pay after you quit another job? Believe me or not, The right to work sucks *****


Put the glove on the other hand:
How would you like it if once someone decided to hire you, you weren't allowed to quit or retire untill you can find a "good enough" reason to be let go?

Enough said.

[quad2xtreme]

I can truly say this site has helped me immensely in my day-to-day happiness over the past 3-6 months so special thanks to so many of you. I used to feel guilt about my successes and believing I was part of sacrificing others for my added wealth. This site made me realize I was out of touch with my fellow man who truly yearns for the type of environment I help provide. I now feel better knowing folks made the decision (essentially agreeing) to work in the provided conditions for the pay offered or they can choose to quit. I no longer feel guilt when we replace employees who have been with the company for 4-5 years because we really have the right to keep our costs down by replacing them with newbies that do an adequate job all things considered for less money. The folks we let go have the opportunity to seek better employment for the next company who needs folks with some experience...or at least they can start at the bottom again and move up faster with the experience we provided. The one thing I don't understand is all the cold stares I get when I run into these folks. It's all just good business practices in a capitalistic society and it is the way America wants it. Why do you end up acting like I've done something wrong? Just because I don't want you in my neighborhood or country club doesn't mean we can't be friends when we see each other at the mall. I just think most folks should be greatful that I provided opportunities for them to work and take care of their families for a period of time. It isn't my fault they don't have the brains or skills to get a job that pays well enough to afford health insurance or better living conditions. And why should a family man be treated any different than a single worker? Why should I help cover his families' health insurance? I think each man should be treated the same and those who choose to have families should cover the additional cost of health insurance if they can. If not, they should just find a better job so the next guy can step up and give me the gratitude for giving him a job. Plus working for me, you don't have to worry about paying taxes...so in a sense I am paying you even more because you are working hard, not paying taxes, and still mooching off government services that you aren't covering. And the great news is I am not paying for them either. I am so successful, we decided it is in everyone's best interest if I don't have to pay much in taxes so I can generate more of these great jobs for the masses!

A simple thank you would suffice. I am expecting at least 1,000 thank yous from my fellow supporters who believe in America, capitalism, small government, and no unions!!!

[derekhonda]

keep living in dream land bud.

[IdahoMX]

Its not about not being able to fire someone. Its about having proper documentation so that a employee can change to suit the needs of his employer before being let go. Treat your people good and the buisness will run way better. If they are a piece of sh##. A few wright ups will not change the end result. Thats not even to mention the pay thing or breaks or vacation. Bottom line it hands over evrything to the employer

[quad2xtreme]

IdahoMX...recalling one of your previous posts...I can tell you that government contractors will persuade folks to leave their jobs because they expect to win a pending contract with the government that requires quick execution. So, they are almost forced to staff up for a contract they may not win. You have 3 contractors all believing they are going to win so they all hire these poor innocent soles who know little about working in the contracting business. 1 wins and is in good shape. The other 2 just let these folks go with no severance pay. Basically these guys left good jobs believing they found the next great job only to be in the unemployment line. Nothing anybody can do about it. I've literally seen people let go in the afternoon of their very first day of work. I love that folks see companies as these "honest" entities...like they are a mother who will provide protection and do the right thing.

It actually happened to me once when I was 19. Got my dream job as a front desk clerk at a hotel near Disney World. On my very first day of training, we found out another company acquired the hotel. The entire front office staff was let go within 2 days. I too left another job that wasn't available to me anymore. Guess that is just the breaks. What went around for me goes around for others now.

[OldGuyonaQuad]

Originally posted by Quad18star
No idea who Van Jones is , honestly never heard the name before.

Are you saying , that because Canada has mostly Unionized workers, that we are a Socialist country who will fold?

If so, I have to laugh at that, since this country came out on top during the recession with many countries asking for our job creation model. We did not have 1/3 of our population collecting welfare ... in fact, we were creating jobs during the peak of the recession. So I really don't see how you link unions with socialism.

How much money was saved in defense spending? I love when Canadians puff out their chests and say Canada > US.

I can't argue with your welfare point, a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link( any rider knows that ;) and it's a huge anchor for the US

Unions at one time were necessary just as hand guns were, we've evolved as a society to have agencies that protect our interests (& our lives)with out linning the pockets of some fat lazy slob.

If I want to have a booth at the Kitchen & Bath show in AC I have to pay $75 per hour to have a union carpenter use a screw gun. I can't even bid on a job that requires prevailing wage as none of my contractors can afford to pay their laborers that kind of money. Sorry most unions got fat and greedy inho and its' guys liek me that are paying the frieght. You can keep on serving up that "safety in the work place" BS that's nothing but union self serving rhetoric.

I've worked for two usless unions and my company currently employes a union for our drivers but all they do is protect the lazy and inept.

[motomadman]

Originally posted by quad2xtreme
I can truly say this site has helped me immensely in my day-to-day happiness over the past 3-6 months so special thanks to so many of you. I used to feel guilt about my successes and believing I was part of sacrificing others for my added wealth. This site made me realize I was out of touch with my fellow man who truly yearns for the type of environment I help provide. I now feel better knowing folks made the decision (essentially agreeing) to work in the provided conditions for the pay offered or they can choose to quit. I no longer feel guilt when we replace employees who have been with the company for 4-5 years because we really have the right to keep our costs down by replacing them with newbies that do an adequate job all things considered for less money. The folks we let go have the opportunity to seek better employment for the next company who needs folks with some experience...or at least they can start at the bottom again and move up faster with the experience we provided. The one thing I don't understand is all the cold stares I get when I run into these folks. It's all just good business practices in a capitalistic society and it is the way America wants it. Why do you end up acting like I've done something wrong? Just because I don't want you in my neighborhood or country club doesn't mean we can't be friends when we see each other at the mall. I just think most folks should be greatful that I provided opportunities for them to work and take care of their families for a period of time. It isn't my fault they don't have the brains or skills to get a job that pays well enough to afford health insurance or better living conditions. And why should a family man be treated any different than a single worker? Why should I help cover his families' health insurance? I think each man should be treated the same and those who choose to have families should cover the additional cost of health insurance if they can. If not, they should just find a better job so the next guy can step up and give me the gratitude for giving him a job. Plus working for me, you don't have to worry about paying taxes...so in a sense I am paying you even more because you are working hard, not paying taxes, and still mooching off government services that you aren't covering. And the great news is I am not paying for them either. I am so successful, we decided it is in everyone's best interest if I don't have to pay much in taxes so I can generate more of these great jobs for the masses!

A simple thank you would suffice. I am expecting at least 1,000 thank yous from my fellow supporters who believe in America, capitalism, small government, and no unions!!!


That took some time to think up with I bet. Just a FYI, most small business owners are not rich and are not members of country clubs. Comical nonetheless.

[maverrickid]

I am in the union and work hand in hand on state work with non union. If you dont think there is a difference your a foul. The are slower, dumber and lazy. Unions arent a social club, Iam the foreman if you dont show up on time your gone, if you screw off your gone. I even have my own company and do residential thats a bigger joke, the hard working non union guy shows up at 9am and leaves at 3. My friend is a non union plumber he chargers more then my boss does. Ask yourself this, when Ford moves a factory to mexico do you see a price difference in the car. The answer is no, the big wigs keep it. Dont hate on me for what I choose to do with my life because I dont care what you do with yours

[quad2xtreme]

Originally posted by motomadman
That took some time to think up with I bet. Just a FYI, most small business owners are not rich and are not members of country clubs. Comical nonetheless.

The saddest thing for me is seeing the very people being taken advantage of the most beating the drums for the very ones suppressing them. Truth is, too much of my post is more accurate than I'd like to admit. Most of my career has been in the large corporate world.

The latest win for corporate America is Pharma companies getting the courts to agree that salespeople don't need to be paid overtime. This is going to save them billions of dollars. This is great for us because now our meds will cost less afterall, they are just trying to reduce costs to bring product to market at a lower price, right? Is there anyone who believes this??? Truth is, just more profit to make the shareholders happy for a quarter or two. Then, they will be looking for the next big cut that can generate more profit margin. It is a never ending cycle.

New Coke was merely created as a way to lower the cost of producing Old Coke. Do you really think Coke was looking for a newer, better flavor?