Does ANYONE know....???

[Logan #34's Dad]

Anyone know where to find the list of "production" machines that have been homogalized and APPROVED to be raced for the 2012 race season? I've contacted the AMA via email - got a response that I had to answer a question, did that and I got nothing further....
I foresee some upset fathers at the start of the new 90cc Production class...

[Hetrick Racing]

Unlike the Bike world the ATV has a real hard time because of the imported Mini ATVs.
Yes because of the "word hounds" on here the Kawies,Honda's,etc. are imported but are always the same for the model year,within reason.

THIS IS MY OPINION and may not be the views of the AMT/ATVA

ie:imo--- The problem with the process is APEX brings in 3 new quads a year same as 20 other little companies send in the paper work and boom your covered,why?? because the AMA cannot see any reason to hinder ATV racing by not allowing the quads to be legal.Also because these companies usually have them available throughout the U.S
Sound strange ?Not really if we as riders teams and parents keep pushing in that direction there will be NO ATV racing at all.WE ARE HURTING!!!
There is a big difference between ATV and Bike racing,remember that.

Im sure there is a list for atvs that are legal,but it is probably 50 pages long and I can see no reason to confuse the public by releasing it.

All that you need to do is ask if your specific quad is legal and they will tell you after 3 days when they find the paper work.


I can tell you this

ALL APEX ATVs THROUGH 2011 are legal
DRR 50,70,90CC QUADS ARE LEGAL
Cobra 50,70 are legal and you are allowed to up size engines.
Dinli 50 70 90
Eton 50,70,90
Polaris 50,70,90
Kasea 50,70,90
Pitser Pro-all (per class structure,in other words just because its legal dont mean you can race a 150 in the 70 class)

See and these are the few I have asked about there are a bunch more

[FISH ON!]

I have the name and phone number of the AMA official who is in charge of the homologation process. If anybody needs that, just PM me. I can tell you from my experience that the "list" your looking for isn't being made available. I did manage however, to get the AMA to send me an email stating the Apex 85 shifter is homologated. That letter is for sale if anyone is needing it! Lol

[Logan #34's Dad]

I understand that the sport is struggling....However, they should not drift from the set rules and requirements like the ones set for "production". ONE of the reasons for production classes is to keep the cost down in building a machine. A new modified like JB or Robert's for example is far more expensive than a Honda or Pitster especially when your not having to build one to try to compete against those modified machines.
If they are allowing any machine Mr. Apex or Mr. Cobra "says" they have enough to be homogalized to compete in production class then what is next? Jody Bateman "says" his machines meet the requirements and the JB's are now "production" legal too. (I believe the JB's are truely closer to meeting the requirements than some of these others) Who is REALLY in charge of deciding IF a machine meets the SET rules to be approved?
I challenge ANYONE to show me enough APEX 250F's to meet the production requirements..... and what engine is "production" for the Apex85 shifter? Watch dad's lose it when another rider shows up with a different dirtbike engine in the chassis.....Sure sounds like the definition of a Modified to me...
Then there is the Cobra......A person cannot even buy a complete unit.... As long as you install a Cobra bottom end, It's production.?
How is it any different if I were to install a Yamaha 250f or YZ85 engine into a Raptor 250 chassis? I show up on the line with one of these set ups people would protest......
I guarantee if someone showed up on the line with a crf450 engine in their Honda quad - teams would loose their minds.....

[Hetrick Racing]

I agree with some that you said Rock I mean actually a bunch BUT, times are changing so they have to or we will be riding karts

[Logan #34's Dad]

Come-on Mr. H, I was wanting some kind of resistance. Lol.
Kinda why I wish there was an actual list of approved machines. Because how could the officials argue my train of thought... "If a Cobra can come w/o an engine and you add a Cobra engine, how can my Yamaha be illegal?" Or a TRX with a CR85 engine? It could go on and on......

[cobra44]

Rocky I was told by the AMA 2 weeks ago that the new cobra 90 powervalve motor was not legal to run in the production class. But any of the older motors that where amollagated are fine. He then told me the same with the apex with the cr85 motor not legal to run in production. He said we have classes for these bikes and motors called mod classes he said this isn't even going to be an issue. He said he and others have had enough with the mini quads complaining.

Had to give this same explanation to a father who wanted to buy 2 new 90 cobras to run 2 classes at the nationals 90 production and 90 mod for his two kids. He also called to complain and was given the same explanation. 2 more entries that we won't have this year. Something has to give.

[chunky0071]

Well looking from the out side in they mite as well go ahead and make all the mini classes mod . That would stop all the fighting, drop the #'s in the gates, and slowly cut out the mini's all together.

Don't fight the system bend it! You should all know by now what is production and what is not. If I was coming to run at the Nats I would look and see what was running in the class I wanted to run and show up with it.

[Logan #34's Dad]

Ya see this is where the problem lays, this person can always go back on their word. If it is written down then we all know the rules b4 we start. I got a good friend building an Apex 85 shifter who was told the machine was production legal. Now, he shows up and they tell him it is NOT a production machine....hang on!
My ONLY issue with the Cobra is you can't buy a complete quad legally which takes it out of the Production classification - IMO. They are getting special treatment from the AMA because they are an American company trying to make it. Well, I feel for them BUT if the rules are to be followed then they should have to follow them as well. Give one exception, gotta give them to others - i.e. Apex..... Then about being able to use old Cobra stuff that was approved, you know that Suzuki LTR450 is on the verge OR already has been considered NOT production legal? Ya know why, they don't make them anymore!
We mini parents always have been and always will be a pain in the butt of the AMA. We are NO different than the bike guys. We want a fair, by the rule, competition, no bending of the rules. Put it in black and white and then we deal with it and race within the rules set by the governing body. If you don't like the rules, don't play. BUT when you allow a person to "bend" the rules, people get upset.


Originally posted by cobra44
Rocky I was told by the AMA 2 weeks ago that the new cobra 90 powervalve motor was not legal to run in the production class. But any of the older motors that where amollagated are fine. He then told me the same with the apex with the cr85 motor not legal to run in production. He said we have classes for these bikes and motors called mod classes he said this isn't even going to be an issue. He said he and others have had enough with the mini quads complaining.

Had to give this same explanation to a father who wanted to buy 2 new 90 cobras to run 2 classes at the nationals 90 production and 90 mod for his two kids. He also called to complain and was given the same explanation. 2 more entries that we won't have this year. Something has to give.

[quadrider79]

Does anybody know why CVT's are not allowed in the 90 Production class? Just thought it was interesting that they got kicked out. I would think their still a Production based Atv.

[FISH ON!]

Originally posted by cobra44
Rocky I was told by the AMA 2 weeks ago that the new cobra 90 powervalve motor was not legal to run in the production class. But any of the older motors that where amollagated are fine. He then told me the same with the apex with the cr85 motor not legal to run in production. He said we have classes for these bikes and motors called mod classes he said this isn't even going to be an issue. He said he and others have had enough with the mini quads complaining.


I spent a lot of time trying to contact AMA homologation ruling official because I had a dog in the hunt (southern saying....... Our quad sat in the garage and collected dust last year over this homologation issue.) I found the answers you get depend on how you ask the question to the AMA. Keep in mind the AMA doesn't know the mini quad world like we know the mini quad world on these issues. If I were to ask the AMA, "Is an Apex quad with a Honda CR 85 motor legal in the production class? " the immediate response would be no because a "mod" is not production legal. I have in writing from the AMA dated 1/17/12 quote "the 2011 Apex Pro MXR 85cc has been Homologated and is legal for Amateur AMA racing." It may not have been perfectly clear to the AMA when you discussed it with them that Apex offered that motor option in their quad. I gave them the specific Make and Model number and he pulled the folder and verified all the proper paper work was in order for the "2011 Apex Pro MXR 85cc" to be considered "production." Look out production class!

......and based on what I learned, IF JB Mod would have put a serial number on their quad and creatively marketed it as a whole package with some motor options, it could be homologated too. (that's my thoughts, not anything the AMA stated)


Now the Cobra...............what they told you about the Wiley Mod surprises me. What I've learned here is that if you have a 2009 or older Cobra 70 which was previously homologated, you can put what ever after market cylinder you want on it which is essentially what the Wiley mod is. I don't know much about the AMA production class but I'm assuming it's a bunch of TRXs on steriods and Cobra 70s. I don't know how you could allow a Takegawa head on a Honda and not a Suzuki cylinder on a Cobra. I always thought that as long as the cases match the production unit you are good to go, the limit becomes the CCs. Also, you can run the newer Cobra stuff because the parts supersede the old. For instance, I break my 2009 frame and call Cobra for a new one, I'll get the 2012 frame since the 2009 frame is nolonger made. Same deal on the motor. They know how to work the system.

To that end.......... In the last two months I've been real bored so I read all the BS out there from the CPSC and EPA and code of federal regulations and I concluded that those organizations if unchecked will eventually KILL the mini quad world completely. I've been a contractor to the Federal Government for 23 years and know how they think......or their lack of thinking! Thankfully we're about done with them but I hate it for my grandchildren, should I ever be blessed with any. You need to read the CPSC stuff if you haven't already.

peace out.................and come race the woods with us!

[Logan #34's Dad]

Originally posted by quadrider79
Does anybody know why CVT's are not allowed in the 90 Production class? Just thought it was interesting that they got kicked out. I would think their still a Production based Atv.

I was not in those meetings or talks BUT if I had to guess, there was already plenty of eligible class for the 90cvt's. They probably were looking to get more machine types involved that are more similar to compete against each other. i.e. Honda vs Pitster vs Yamaha.....

[Ryko racing]

Every year we go.through this. The companies should be required to build 100 units up front before the ama will homologate them. First off that will protect the consumer from buying one and having the company disappear or not have parts available. Also it would protect the real dealers. (I know guys that were selling apex and drr over the last few years that had no ability to service the product. Heck most of them sold them from their homes. Plus they under cut all the real dealers until a lot of them gave up. I think the prod rules originally were to protect the manufacturer and dealer networks that help support our industry. The ama needs to regulate better. In the long run it will help is all. Just my thoughts.

[EthansDad]

after reading all this, and checking up on the nasty that is the CPSC ( I too am convinced they'd take atvs away from our kids in a heart beat if allowed) - here are my thoughts.

We need to keep the concept of "production" and the homologation process, BUT the number needs to come down from 100 units to something less - maybe 50, maybe lower.

These little companies (DRR, APEX, Cobra) are trying all they can to stay afloat in this bad economy and with the added kicker of the CPSC trying to shut their doors. that 100 units = production is outdated IMO and does not reflect the world we live in - which is one that has fewer racers at the nationals than ever, and the govn't trying to shut the door.

the AMA needs to see that, and lower that number. that would be more fair than 1-off exceptions, bending of the rules or other junk that causes complaining.

[Ryko racing]

Well said Rich.

I really dont think the AMA'S goal is to not be proactive. But in tough times sometimes things have to be adjusted.
I think that we will see more of it in the future as the GOOD OLD TIMES will probably never happen again.... We will survive and prosper and hopefully so will our sport.

Now lets get to some racing and have fun........8 weeks til the show starts again.

Hopefully we can all get together for a cold one.....

You too Rocky, i cant wait to see that Can am... ( Ryan wants to ride it).....

[jake55]

Originally posted by Ryko racing
[B


Hopefully we can all get together for a cold one.....

[/B]

I already have the cooler packed!!

[Hetrick Racing]

Lol,Robs ready baby........

[Logan #34's Dad]

Hey Eric,
I'm told they lowered the required machines down to 25.... Now you know why I say Jody at JB could easily become "production"...
Even at 25 - I challenge anyone to show me 25 Apex85's(from the factory) or 25 250f's.
Does the Cobra come with a title or serial number? (Production)
The reason Production came back was because of the huge costs of buying a Hybrid back in the day. You know, the days before the big companies could care less about quads....oh, kind of like now..... The day of the hybrids (which kept the sport alive) are a-comin.....

[EthansDad]

Hey Eric, I'm told they lowered the required machines down to 25.... Now you know why I say Jody at JB could easily become "production"... Even at 25 - I challenge anyone to show me 25 Apex85's(from the factory) or 25 250f's. Does the Cobra come with a title or serial number? (Production) The reason Production came back was because of the huge costs of buying a Hybrid back in the day. You know, the days before the big companies could care less about quads....oh, kind of like now..... The day of the hybrids (which kept the sport alive) are a-comin.....


Very interesting. All I know is I am pulling up a lawn chair to the staging area of the 90 production class for round 1, moto 1. I do love a good show....

[quadrider79]

Rocky, Cobra's do come with a serial number.

Eric, it will be interesting. We just might be in staging. If not I'll have a chair right beside ya for the show. LOL!!!!!

[edwardsp&b]

My only question is how many more classes can they create for a 90cvts to run. Isn't there enough already. 90cvts,90 auto Jr, Sr,90mod Jr,sr. Maybe I sound dumb, but why couldn't the mod classes be shifter only. Shifters are pretty left out with just one class to run based on cc's. If I sound stupid then just tell me. I know everybody cant be pleased, but everyone else was *****ing so I figured I'd throw one in. LOL
Bryan

[JAG Motosports]

Originally posted by Logan #34's Dad
The day of the hybrids (which kept the sport alive) are a-comin.....


Good... Jordan's Waitin...

The school boy junior needs changed... basically only one manufacturer has a chance and they dont do crap for the sport! They don't even update their quads unless u consider graphics an update. Open the class up to hybids that can race local but not nationally.


http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp358/MiniQuadRiders/whiiippp.jpg

[Logan #34's Dad]

Originally posted by edwardsp&b
Maybe I sound dumb, If I sound stupid,
Bryan

Okay, I'll say it..... You sound dumb AND stupid. Woooooo! You big ole sissy!
Hehe!
I do agree with ya, so I guess that makes me dumb n stupid too.

[quadrider79]

Originally posted by JAG Motosports
Good... Jordan's Waitin...

The school boy junior needs changed... basically only one manufacturer has a chance and they dont do crap for the sport! They don't even update their quads unless u consider graphics an update. Open the class up to hybids that can race local but not nationally.


http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp358/MiniQuadRiders/whiiippp.jpg

I Agree with ya on this one. I know a guy local that kinda did the same thing except he used the 300 ex chassis with the crf250 engine. And that thing RIPS. He did cut the frame to get the engine to fit but it looks good. The air cooled 300, in my opion is out dated. I have a few years till we get to that class, maybe then it will be changed for the nationals. Local stuff it's legal. Rule is up to 300cc. Got rid of the word Production.

[skyeryder]

This is going t be our first year at Nationals, so I probably shouldn't comment yet but...... when you talk about gate number how about these cvt classes having a stock cylinder rule but you can mod suspension make it so us 99%er's can afford it alittle more.....

[pmarra]

Cobra44 The reason AMA told you that the Cobra 90 power valve motor was not legal is Cobra doz not have a 90 motor Wiley mods makes from a 70

[Logan #34's Dad]

Originally posted by pmarra
Cobra44 The reason AMA told you that the Cobra 90 power valve motor was not legal is Cobra doz not have a 90 motor Wiley mods makes from a 70

So Paul, do you know for certain that the AMA is allowing the Cobra with your jug in the 90 Production class? I can't see why not as long as cases are Cobra.
The AMA-ATVA really need to produce an "approved" list. Once it's finalized, if ya don't like the list - race somewhere else...IMO.

[quadrider79]

I think the reason this was bought up, is like Paul said, Cobra doesn't make a 90cc quad. They only have a 50, 70, and I think a 80. DRR makes a 50,70, and a 90cc quad.
I remember having a talk with someone a while back, and if I remember correctly they said actual that you can't take a 50 production and make it a 70 production to race in the 70 production class because it originally was a 50. Yes I know that the frames are the same but there is a serial number on the frame that says wether it is or was a 50,70, or a 90. I don't know if this was a rule or not. Or if it was changed.

[pmarra]

Yes the RMC90s can run in production. You can up size but not down size. If you take a 50 and upsize it to a 70. and it can run in the 70 production class.