Cheaters

[jettquad17]

there was recently some great conversation on the "durhamtown" thread about cheaters and protesting, nationals vs. outlaw races. well here is my little bit of input.
cheating hurts your CHILD the most. it puts a false sense of success and accomplishment into their personality. we all know who the cheaters are in our little part of the world each of us race. we choose our battles and play the cards layed out for us. cheating is cheating period. i can afford the nationals series, just choose to stay local and have money left over for my sons college...haha
the big thing i like best is the friendships and helping hands of the smaller venues. if it werent for those local dads we wouldnt be racing at all.
as for all you cheaters here is a little information few know. Jett is legally blind. thats right, cheat away and still get smoked by a kid that has a hard time reading your number plate when he passes you!!
our kids will grow up in our image. if we work hard to show them winning is awesome, but losing is the way of life were helping them in the real world...face it the wall full of 5 dollar trophies wont mean JACK when they enter the real world. so when your stuffing those cranks in the "stock" class and putting a 150cc/220cc pitster motor in the trx90 frame keep that in mind. its about heart, not horsepower. i would put tanner sorrow or ben cushman up against any cheater, and my son jett might even be there too.
funny thing is, as long as your honest about what you run....we could care less.

[chunky0071]

Not to stir any thing up don't want to at all but there is another side. When you have been called a cheater and you are not. My point to this is you can't let it bother you . You have to take pride in the fact that you are playing by the rules. And that is another big part of life. In my own opinion the kids should not hear some of the talk between the parents. If some is cheating or accused of cheating the kids should not be a part of it. Unless the accused if convicted. Kids can be very cruel to one another with out our input. So we should not feed that fire it's not the kids fault it's the PARENTS!

[jettquad17]

Thats my very point chuck. I dont discuss such matters to jett. But for alot its an open forum. The hardest part of winning is losing. The funnest part is doing it fairly. Again it should be a fair race between the kids, not a false representation between the parents. We all want to see our kids succeed, but is winning by cheating a success, in my opinion NO!!

[EthansDad]

Hey Jett,

We've met, yes? Did not realize you are in Cumming too. probably the only other mini quad in the area :-)

so let me put another angle on this. I agree with what you said, cheating hurts the kids, but it will always happen. a lot of the times, the "cheating" in question is NOT done on purpose, but rather ignorance. This happens a LOT at the locals, where the rules are much more relaxed and people don't pay attention much to what is out there. We were mini quad #3 to ever race at Durhamtown, so we've seen them grow up out there. our first race was my 3 yr old on an eton 50 in the same class with 2 other 10 yr old boys on built Dinli 90s. that was their only class at the time for mini quads. at least we always got 3rd :)


They are better, but their class "rules" leave a lot to be interpreted, and their ability to enforce (like a tech inspect) what they do ask for is even more limited.

I personally think at the locals its up to the Dads out there to agree on what you want to run. its still at that level of racing. the alternative is to push Durhamtown to add more classes (70 stk and 70 mod VS just plan old pee wee 70 "bring what you have"). I don't think DP has enough racers to open up more classes for us. They do need to have a stk class so kids getting started with their old yard quads have something to run, but besides that, racing at DP is, and always has been modified bikes out front.

What SHOULD be protested is when someone brings in a motor that is outside of the range of the class. that really is the only rule DP can enforce, that I know of.

My advise, talk to the other dads. ask them what motor size they are running and tell them if you don't think its legal for the class. if they don't want to tell you, or tell you its oversized, educate them on the rules. if they still don't care, its time to protest and get them DQ'd.

[jettquad17]

Yes we have met, and I agree the rules are somewhat cloudy. Im more apposed the the motors that are well outside the CC limitations. As for parents, we have always discussed changes and motor upgrades. Its the ones who swear up annd down its stock. We dont care wjat you run as long as your honest. Especially to your kids. I try to instill the fact that winning is fun, but racing is more fun. Jett wants to win, but still comes off with a smile if he doesnt.

[EthansDad]

DP has no stk class that I see for their little buck track series. be careful when you say "stock" because there is a lot of ways to view that.

we ran the 50 limited (stock like) class at the nationals for 3 yrs. We were a protest target a number of times, and had good reason to protest others at some races. let me sum up three yrs experiences for you - stock classes are a pain in the BUTT and as much as you think you want a stock class for your kid, you really don't. that means more rules, more checking of the rules, more room to call out "cheaters" and a bunch of other junk that is no fun. Getting into the mode of thinking folks in your series are "cheating" also saps all the fun out of things, and can really mess with your head unless you take action on it.



you race that series more than we do, so if there is a problem - careful what you call out. stock or non-stock is NOT an issue based on their rules/class structure. its all about motor size.

look for the motor cc size stamped on the side of their cylinder on the line. a good trick, drop your kids goggles, bend down to pick them up - take a look-see.

Next, get firm with them if they are over. tell them they are out of motor size range and you plan on filing a protest for moto 2 if they don't withdraw from the class. give them a chance to do the right thing. if they don't, get tuff and file the protest. its the only way things keep fair. DP rules say protest are to be done in writing. write up the protest before moto 2 and show it to them on the line if you are serious.

DP classes: - no mention of stock
Pee Wee ATV – 50cc 4 laps
Pee Wee ATV– 70cc
youth ATV – 90cc -125cc


Rules - not a single mention of modifications, or other bike restrictions - this is all you have to go on:

AGE – 12yrs old and under *If your child turns 13 yrs old during the course of the series, he/she will be allowed to finish the series out. Provided he/she was 12 yrs old (First Race) at the time you registered them for the first time during this series.*(Supermini class will allow a child up to 15 yrs old to race in this Series)
CHANGING CLASSES – If you choose to move your child up a class he/she will be allowed to carry 75% of his/her points up. In the case of any racer in any beginner class, wins 1st place in the Championship, or appears to be misplaced; (Example) If a Beginner’s lap time is faster than an average Advanced rider: he/she can or may be moved to the advanced class. He/she will carry no points into the next class. Points earned in the beginner class will remain there.
REGISTRATION-We now offer two ways to register, in person and online. We would like to encourage online registration. It simplifies the process for all of us. If you register online, all you will have to do on race day is come to the lodge and pick up your packet which contains your receipt and race band. There are no long lines to wait in. You get first priority. Simply go to our website www.durhamtown.com and click on the link for Youth Motocross Series
RegistrationPROTECTIVE GEAR-Durhamtown does enforce safety. Therefore we ask that protective gear is worn. This includes: helmet, goggles, boots and chest protector (minimal requirement). ( Pit Bikes are not required to wear Chest Protectors and Riding Boots)

[chunky0071]

Kelly I apologize if I have done any thing to up set you. I have all ways been truthful about what is in our motor. And I have been truthful to Tanner #443 about what is in his motor. We are running a drr crank in our motor this is a stuffer crank. Some one chine in here if there is a large power gain with that crank but I don't think there is. We run a limited class. We by no means have all that can be done to our bike for that class. Again I apologize if I have upset anyone that was not my intention!

[EthansDad]

Kelly I apologize if I have done any thing to up set you. I have all ways been truthful about what is in our motor. And I have been truthful to Tanner #443

I wouldn't apologize, at least not for being out of the rules. unless you can show some rules from DP that are more restrictive than what I posted.

based on their rules as written, I could do what ever I wanted to a DRR motor (as long as I stay in the cc limit), or for that matter,slap a kx85 motor in a custom built frame and still be legal for the youth atv 90-125. heck for that matter, they don't even say 2 stroke VS 4 stroke CC limit, so I could put a 125cc 2 stoke motor into a mini chassis and really smoke things.

That makes it easier for the track to enforce what is fair, but for us dads it does create an "arms race" that can drain your wallet fast.

I'm not trying to stir things up or take sides here, just showing how I'd interpret the rules based on how they are written. that is what they do at the nationals - squeeze every ounce out of the rules.

-EA

[jettquad17]

Chuck, this isnt geared towards you. There is a 150/220cc 4 stroke mod running out there. We beat him on a stock...and I mean STOCK apex90. Right down to the stocl clutch. For us its more about cheating the kids. sadly eric I wouldnt call them out because of the shadow it puts on the dad even if he went back to following the rules not to mention the kid having to give up the trophy. I would prefere honesty so the playing field could be leveled. If you need to bump the cc's to be competitive, go for it. But dont look at me when I can feel your exhaust thumping through my chest andore compression than a 450r and claim its a stocl motor just thrown in there.

[EthansDad]

I hope you are taking this in the spirit of debating the issue and not attacking the people involved.

again, stock VS non-stock has nothing to do with their rules. that is your choice to run a stock bike in a modified class. nothing wrong with that, we did that a lot at DP run our stk bike against mods - it was kind of fun really to be the underdog. I just had to set my kids expectations that "you likely won't catch them in the first corner". just be careful not to hold others to being stock, because they don't have to.

for being over CC - like a 150 cc 4 stroke - the dad should want to do the right thing and be legal. suggest they ask DP to add a super-mini class (for 150cc 4 stroke minis like the nationals). if its clearly a CRF 150 motor, remind him he's over cc for the class. DP won't do that for you.

That really is another job us dads have besides crew chief is being rules police. don't expect the track to take care of things like this, they know less than we do about quads.

[jettquad17]

No, im not attacking at all. And my point about running the stocl bike was it doesnt always payoff to cheat. And again, cheating is a choice, a poor choice, but still a choice. As witj the DP rules, were lax as well, just be upfront and say what ya got.

[nastynotchback1]

Originally posted by EthansDad
heck for that matter, they don't even say 2 stroke VS 4 stroke CC limit, so I could put a 125cc 2 stoke motor into a mini chassis and really smoke things.


Thanks Eric.Now i got less than 2 weeks to get this 125cc kx motor in our drr.:D :devil:

[edwardsp&b]

So I guess this means that I cant show up with a custom big block race motor on a mini quad frame? Dang!!!

Eric, were yall #3 and us #4 or backwards? Anyway, its probably a toss up. I remember those bad little dinlis those boys had, took Ben a bunch of races to catch them boys. Those were the days........Seems we had alot more fun then!

Kelly, I can understand what you are saying. Its the point of cheating that has you mad. My only concern in the whole issue is that we dont deter others from racing. If they come up to a local with a 150, we need to find a class for them. Im really not talking about the mini track at night, that track is too tight for a motor that big or even our 90mod IMO. But with the shape of our sport right now, we need all the numbers we can get.

On this topic, yall need to get together with Halvorson, he's been talking with Lauren at DP about new classes and renaming the classes already there. For instance what I would do.

0-50 beginners class (If there is a can am ds 90 show up thats never been on a track before (beginner)let him ride this class)

70-90 automatic or cvt class(would include 4 stroke up to 125, but a no clutch class) in other words if my son showed up on his 70 shifter he would not run in this class. this class would be a automatic only class

0-250 supermini (this class would be an expert class for kids, this would incl any shifter or non shifter. In other words if some of the dads wanted to run there 70 or 90 cvt in this class they would be welcome. there would be a no limit on this class except for cc's. It would also make it to where a child could run two classes, most of yall would run both classes due to having two different classes.

Whatever happens dont deter others from racing, if they are not within the rules let them know. If they raise a fuss, go get an official. Find a class for them to ride, we need all the numbers we can get.
Bryan

BTW with after what happened with all the staff quiting last week, and Lauren only going to be there for a few more weeks, dont expect any help or change. Most of the others that now run the race series care nothing about quads. Dont expect to get any special treatment or help from them. For gods sake they tried to kick me out of the place, for doing what the announcer wanted me too over the intercom.

[Rich243]

That would be for the Bomber races only and I believe Bryan means 0-150 supermini.......

[Rich243]

I was going to try and talk with everyone on Saturday about the classes for the Bomber series next year but after the "rocky" start to the day at sign up with lauren and other people leaving, I decided to wait and see how it plays out the next couple races before deciding if I even want to approach them about changes.

[edwardsp&b]

Actually Rich, I said the 250 so that would include raptors and blasters. Im just looking into the future, these mini riders will one day grow out of CVT's. If this is going to be done, make it where there are options coming off a CVT to race another bike. Again, make it where anybody that shows up to a local, has a place to race within their abilities. With it being an expert youth class, Id put my 90mod against any 150 or 250 that showed up.
Bryan

I need to sell my business and go run Durhamtown. I would have that place straighted out in a month......Plus it would be an atv lover in charge, Id put those crackpot dirtbikers in their place! LOL

[thequadfather+2]

Just look at it this way....Everyone on the gate is guilty until proven innocent!!!:devil: :devil:

Thats the way I look at it, it makes me feel better. You know, if we get beat then I know they were cheating anyway. :D

Disclaimer: This is a joke, it is only a joke and no representation is made that the quality of jokes told by me are better than the jokes told by Bryan Kirkland and Eric Alhm.

Seriously: I think we have all been beaten by the kid on a stock bike that doesn't even ride that much. They just pulled it out of the shed, dusted it off and showed up to race, haven't rode in 6 months.

[EthansDad]

Whatever happens dont deter others from racing, if they are not within the rules let them know. If they raise a fuss, go get an official. Find a class for them to ride, we need all the numbers we can get.

man, that is key. we are a SMALL sport and don't need to send folks packing because they brought the wrong equipment.

If you look at the nationals to keep things fair, they have, what, like 15-20 different youth classes for bike sizes between 50-150 cc?? that's not going to happen at a local event, they won't buy that many trophy's or do that many gate drops.

we should get another thread going to talk about classes at DP, but I got to say at first glance, that line up looks fair. you want a beginner class, and I agree - run a can-am 90 first timer with the 50s. the kids will all have fun. separating the shifting from non-shifting is a good idea, and bunching the 70s and 90s together is no big deal either with our crew. all in all, I think that is a good start to the class structure.

[Rich243]

Your reasoning on the 250 limit makes sense Bryan, but they won't let anything but a miniquad on bomber, and then only for races. I would bet trying to go up to 250 would get our request turned down for sure. I am not sure that they would go for the super mini class but it is a MINI class!!!!

[edwardsp&b]

Rich243 Your reasoning on the 250 limit makes sense Bryan, but they won't let anything but a miniquad on bomber, and then only for races. I would bet trying to go up to 250 would get our request turned down for sure. I am not sure that they would go for the super mini class but it is a MINI class!!!!

Which is horsecrap!!!! How many full size adults do you see on a raptor 250? And besides that, I dont see where there is a difference in us minis slinging dirt in the corners vs. a big quad. Lord knows Ive been sprayed with dirt in the corners at durhamtown just specatating. But I reckon that is an arguement we would have to take to them.

Quote;
thequadfather+2 Just look at it this way....Everyone on the gate is guilty until proven innocent!!!

Thats the way I look at it, it makes me feel better. You know, if we get beat then I know they were cheating anyway.

Disclaimer: This is a joke, it is only a joke and no representation is made that the quality of jokes told by me are better than the jokes told by Bryan Kirkland and Eric Alhm.

Your a trip Bruce!!!!!

Quote;EthansDad quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
man, that is key. we are a SMALL sport and don't need to send folks packing because they brought the wrong equipment.

Exactly!!!! I think if we try to grow our sport positively (unlike dirtbaggers) it will result in a better future for our sport.

Bryan

[Christiansdad]

I wish the atvs or atleast all the smaller kids could race before it get 9 at night...that bs is gettin old. I agree with cheating but all in all...motocross, supercross, cross country...it's all about the rider and not so much the atv. All that aftermarket crap is just to make it easier for the rider...and that's where you see money come in to play...like I said in the past....a ebay 500 motor to a hetrick tricked out 5000 motor. That's the main reason my boy doesn't race go karts. That's all money.. But all in all what class should treys boy tanner race in..70's and 90's ..you think we could pass that motor in the 50cc class for christian..lol

[Bens Dad]

If using a larger CC motor to win is Cheating! Then what do you call it when smaller CC motors beats larger CC motors ??????? lol

[jettquad17]

Nitrous!!!

[nastynotchback1]

Not to be a butt or anything with this comment

Tanners and Ben's 70cc motors will pretty much out power any 90cc that races this series regular(on the little track).I agree that rider plays a bigger part in winning but if you take the best rider and put him on a lower powered quad and take a rider with alittle less ability on a high powered good suspension quad the lesser rider of the 2 will more than likely win just because he had better stuff to work with.What i am trying to say is it takes everything to win not just a good rider or a good bike. just my .02

[jettquad17]

Well spoken Trai "I can MAKE it fit" sorrow, let Jonathan "its all in the pipe" cushman know what's for!!! Hahaha

[Bens Dad]

Trai hit the nail on the head! I 100% agree its a combination of a good rider and a good quad! not to mention a good pipe! hahaha when two kids are racing on the same level then it can boil down to who has the best set up for that track. :blah: Mr. kelly 4stroke cant find my shifter! hahahahahaha

[jettquad17]

I FOUND it, was laying next to the other half of your axle!!! Hahaha

[jettquad17]

10 paces beyond Trai's chain.

[edwardsp&b]

You guys should have seen what was going on at DP about 4 or 5 years ago. There were some really shady characters racing atv's there when we started. Im talking about Dads getting mad for looking to hard at their quads during staging. Ben got beat good the first couple of races that year, then he kinda figured it out so to speak. Needless to say that guy never really talked much to me again. Be proud that its a good group up there racing, and not a bunch of *******s.
Bryan

[chunky0071]

Originally posted by edwardsp&b
You guys should have seen what was going on at DP about 4 or 5 years ago. There were some really shady characters racing atv's there when we started. Im talking about Dads getting mad for looking to hard at their quads during staging. Ben got beat good the first couple of races that year, then he kinda figured it out so to speak. Needless to say that guy never really talked much to me again. Be proud that its a good group up there racing, and not a bunch of *******s.
Bryan


I agree Bryan maybe yall just need to talk to the guy and see whats going on bring him in to the group instead of pushing him out. But don't worry we will be down the 4th to race so yall will have plenty to talk about. See yall then.

[nastynotchback1]

New master link and i am ready to go.Be hard to fix a shifter or an axle at the track with j/b weld or zip ties lol :devil:

[jettquad17]

I've tried it..Haha

[chunky0071]

Yall should be ashamed no body said any thing about duct tape I mean come on !

[EthansDad]

while we're completely off topic...reminds me...I had a guy last year at the nats so sure we were cheating (or that we'd figured out something big time he hadn't) that he was standing 5ft behind our bike on the line with a 35mm camera around his neck. every time I glanced over my shoulder, the guy would look up at the clouds. about three times of that I said to him, "you know, if you'd like to know anything about our quad, just ask ..pls don't take up close pics". funny stuff. guy turned out to be an alright dude, just when people get it in their head the other guy has an unfair advantage, or is cheating - they do crazy stuff.

I remember in the 2010 season, I'd be over with the other dads trackside watching the race and hear/see an obvious stk cheat quad (stock bike up 500-1000 rpms on the rest). I'd gripe and moan and say to my bud "that guy is cheating". about three races doing that, my bud gave me the best advice. he said, "Eric, shut up. we're out here to have fun and if it bugs you that much go protest so you stop bugging us". I shut up, and have been happier since.

[mheath14]

The last commment is by far the best advice I have I have seen yet.

[Cobra50Dad]

That is a very good comment. I just don't understand why dads build their kids these cheat quads and sometimes they go unseen, but most of the time others know it. We ran against a few this year in locals I know were Cheating and it is hard to keep your mouth shut. I mean parents are showing their kids that it's ok to cheat, which really ticks me off. They claim their motors are legal but hide everything from everybody when questioned. I don't mind anyone at anytime coming to look at my sons motor or anything else we run. A 50 can only turn so much hp and be so torkey....so seeing how one comes out of the turns and how they sound can give a good idea of whether that quad is legal or not esp in the 50 class. Some things can be let go at locals, but not at the bigger races.

Don't cheat the kids!!!

[jay-r]

I agree completely, don't cheat the kids. There are many lessons to be learned from racing. How to benefit from cheating should not be one of them.

On the other side of the issue. Give the kids some credit for a good ride. Don't start talking about someone as a cheater just because they won. Yes, it is possible to win legally.

If someone has a cheater motor, it will be evident on the start. That is really the advantage that a cheater motor gives you. Overcoming a midpack start is all rider. We rarely ever holeshot. But, we have been the subject of cheater talk a few times. I always laugh it off and consider it a compliment to tuning and rider ability. It does get old however. I too have nothing to hide. If someone wants to talk to me about our engines, come on, I love talking about tuning. Most all of the Dads I have run into at the races are good people and love this stuff.

Otherwise, if someone suspects cheating, get with the other parents, pool the money, and pursue a tear down together. I understand one father not wanting to go it alone. At this point, I know that I would welcome an official tear down to end the talk. I would be proud for my daughter when we proved that we are legal. Then the credit can be given to the rider.

The person who gets upset about being torn down is the one who is about to get caught. :eek2:

[Cobra50Dad]

You are exactly right. It is usually the one who shys away from the conversation at the track is the one that has something to hide. The motor we have ran since Lorettas is nothing impressive. It runs great but it is a three year old Grissom/Pittman build which age restricts the ability to gear against fresh motors. It is so much better when the best rider wins and cheating is not even the subject.
It's bad anyways to think this is even a topic with 6-8 year olds that are just out there to compete and have fun.

I agree tuning can make the bike faster and gearing is the most important aspect of that. We saw some fast 50s last year in nationals, probably the fastest ones out there and they could fly. I am sure we will see the same this year. Let's hope everyone comes equal and leave it to the kids to see how they do!

[jay-r]

Cobra50dad, it sounds like yall have had some very good indoor races. I hope we get to run with you in Georgia. We are going to run a few more nationals this year. Maybe the Kentucky kids can keep making a good showing in the 50 class.

[Cobra50Dad]

I hope to see you all there! Jordyn is a great rider and that's where she belongs. We had some good indoor races this year, but are really glad that it's mostly over. There are some good riders in Kentucky so I would say we could represent it pretty well again this year!

We are planning to hit most all of the nationals this year but may try to hit some of the TMXA races as well. Good luck to you all!

[jay-r]

Thanks. We are looking forward to getting to the big tracks. Don't really care for the indoors either.

[jettquad17]

You need to come to durhamtown. We have some quick 50s and could use more on the line.

[jay-r]

I would love to get down to Durhamtown. I just don't think it is the budget this year. We are going to try some nationals. Maybe next winter we will plan to get down that way instead of running arenas. We still have another season on 50s after this one.

[jettquad17]

BUDGET??? We can set a BUDGET??? No one told me that!! So I don't HAVE to be "race poor??"

[jay-r]

Budget is really a poor choice of words. This is quad racing. Race till you go broke! :eek2:

[jettquad17]

Spoken like a TRUE race PARENT!!

[jake55]

heck, i was broke when we started!! remember, speed aint cheap. how fast can you afford to go????:devil:

[edwardsp&b]

Alright guys.......I think we've beat this horse to death. This type of conversation will not do anything but hurt this sport. We dont need that!

Also alot of kids read this crap thats posted, mine included, so maybe this is a better conversation for the pits at the track with no kids around.

And as for the expensive is fast comment.......I'm not rich, but no matter the cost I wont be bringing a knife to a gunfight. If we show up you can bet our equipment is top notch and ready to go. I wouldn't show up if it wasn't. Nationals cost alot of money just to get there, if I'm going to spend the money to go, I'm going to make sure our bikes can run up front.

I'm not trying to step on any toes I just get tired of hearing "they are winning cause they are cheating" and "it takes money to get that speed". What doesn't in life?

Bryan

[jake55]

Originally posted by edwardsp&b


I'm not trying to step on any toes I just get tired of hearing "they are winning cause they are cheating" and "it takes money to get that speed". What doesn't in life?

Bryan

it takes money and most important talent.
the how fast can you afford to go comment comes from a local speed shop. this guy builds engines for late models and modified dirt cars and everyday someone walks in his shop saying "that s.o.b. has to be cheatin, what can you do to get me more power???" most of the time the person cant afford the work that needs done to get that little bit extra, so the shop owner put up a sign, it reads, "SPEED AINT CHEAP, HOW FAST CAN YOU AFFORD TO GO?" in other words, what's your budget and we will work with that. not much different than the mini quad world. it's racin, our job as parents is to give our kids the best we can afford, it's the kids job to use it to the best of his/her ability and respect the sacrifice us parents made to get them to the track.

[edwardsp&b]

I understand and agree with you to a point Mr Visnic. Although its kind of hard to piece together a CVT motor. I was really meaning in our "mini world". You can either build a top runner or not. You really cant piece together a National motor, pvl, overrange, pipe, cylinder etc.... they all go hand in hand. I cant tell you how many people I know that have bought an expensive pipe/cylinder combo, and wont buy the pvl, or clutching necessary to make it all tick. And then get pissed because so and so beat their "little johnny".

And yes talent and a little luck wins the overall in our sport.

I just get tired of hearing all of the negativity, especially when our sport is in the condition it is now.
Bryan

[jake55]

i agree, except you say it takes talent and a little luck, more like talent and a whole bunch of luck, something me and my son seem to not be able to find. but we aint giving up, gonna keep on looking for that magic day when it all comes together!!!

[yellowbike44]

I am the local track referee in my area at a ama track . I regularly here this parent is cheating because my kid got beat . I do agree that cheating happens and goes unpunished but on the other side youth classes are based on c.c and age not a,b,c classifaction.So you have an A class racer against a C class racer .

[thequadfather+2]

aaahhh, the ole sand-bagger. I think we have all seen those guys. They can't win if they move up in class so they pad the ole trophy case with hardware by running easier classes.

unfortunately that probably happens more than cheating with mechanical advantages....

[jettquad17]

NEVER give up rob! What a great life lesson for your son.

[Cobra50Dad]

That's why in a way I am glad that youth classes don't have a,b,c,d classes. My only wish is that Cobra and DRR would have a distinct mark on their cylinders to show CC's so it could eliminate any doubt. I'm sure someone would find a way to get around this too...but like someone said earlier, if it bothers someone that much, then protest or shut up. That's a good point. They have protesting at races for a reason.