calling out the gurus

[goober400]

i bought this 05 as a basket case needing a crank.the cylinder had minimal scoring as well as the piston skirt but was a new je 13.1 and new cylinder owner said 10 hrs on the top before crank went.
i never herd or rode it before i built the motor but it has a rattle that i just cant run down.
it sounds like a loud valve tick and gets louder as the rpms increase,also very steady not a random noise.
i have 2 outhers and this is not a normal sound
details below
05 completely rebuilt the motor including
hr 3 mill crankshaft
oem main bearings and seals
tranny and outher bearings looked and felt fine
re used the je 13.1 piston and cylinder
ran a ball hone thru the cylinder and cleaned up the piston skirts
hot cams stage 2 with new intake valves
used all new gaskets cut my own case clutch and stator gaskets on my plotter and used the same thickness gasket paper as honda.i can cut any gasket that has a part number..
new moose brand base and head gasket.
new cam chain
the ticking is in the top end for sure but is loud very loud and gets louder as the rpms increase.
ive shimed and reshimed the valves several times today there spot on
tried to remove the decompressor mech but then i could not start it.
noise sounds like its in the top but everything looks fine and measures as it should.
any ideas i dont know where to look from here.

[brewster426]

Check the timing chain tensioner..I bet it has crapped out.

[400exrip]

Originally posted by brewster426
Check the timing chain tensioner..I bet it has crapped out.

Either that or the timing chain itself may be stretched. Most of the time that is what it is, When people have knocking issues.

A buddy of mine had this same problem on a new build race motor, Stock timing chain could not handle that big cam and all that HP that motor was putting out, And it stretched the chain, Then came the loud knocking.

[OTMTRX]

I've heard of decomp assy's coming loose and the cam gear bolts coming out... both hit the inside of the valve cover... check there for marks. Also You definately got the right cam chain? 04/05 chain is longer that the 06+ .. didn't get an 06+ by mistake? Not even sure it would fit but just a thought...

X2 on the tensioner too... easy to check.

[DnB_racing]

also make sure its not an exhaust leak, sometimes they can be deceiving, and sound like a tick

and make sure timing is spot on, if your valves are hitting the piston, it wont last long, did you perform a squish test?

was the small end of the rod in spec? if there is play in between the piston pin and rod it will make a racket

ive also seen the cam tower tourqed imporply and caused ticking issues

but I wouldnt run it anymore until you resolve the issue

[goober400]

the tensioner seems fine and keeps the chain good and tight with the tensioner only out about 1/4 of its travel.
i didnt notice any slack in the small end of the rod the crank and rod was new but the piston pin was used.
im sure the chain is the correct one.
i also put a new copper seal in the exhaust so i dont think thats it.

i ran it yesterday while trying to diagnose the issue with the valve cover off and everything looked fine while in motion.
and i could still hear the noise so im leaning towared the piston pin or something in one of the side plates.stator or clutch side whith the sound traveling up to sound like the top end.
im going to pull it apart some later this morning and will update then.

it sounds like a very loud valve tick thou and gets louder and faster when rpms increase.

[Jake250ex]

Could be your counter balancer bearings. Sounds like it from all the new parts you replaced.

[goober400]

update...
pulled the head didnt see anything pulled the cylinder to check wrist pin didnt see anything pullud stator cover nothing pulled clutch cover again nothing.
by this time im getting frustrated lol
the cylinder head was laying on the front tire i went to stand up it fell to the ground and there was a valve shim laying on the ground with the head.
now when i pulled the cam tower out i removed all 4 valve shims at the same time i had a 200 192 on the exhaust and a 160/170 on the intake side i found a 150 that had fell out of the head from somewhere.
i only noticed 3 when i had bought the atv and i put in new intake valves so had to use new ones there.

i also put in a new plug so it wasnt from the plug hole.
could it have been stuck inside an exhaust spring?
i never removed them as the valves looked fine..
i did throughly clean the head before assembly but may have not seen it?
either that or it was inside the big allen head plug inside the top of the head but it should have fallen out while cleaning it..
where ever it was it took a good knock to the ground to dislodge it.

[DnB_racing]

I guess its possible to get a shim stuck in the one of the springs, but i would think something would have been obvious while shimming, but anything is possible...

before you completely assemble,
dont put the bolts in the cam gear so the chain will spin without Turning the cam,keep the chain loose enough not to turn the gear but not so loose that it will bind .. just make sure the valves are at tdc.. this way you can spin the crank easily without the tension from valve springs,
it should spin kinda easy with no binding or noise.. if you have a stethoscope listen for any sound of something hitting, if you dont you can use a long screw driver and press firmly against different points and to your ear

if you get what im saying, Im terrible at explaining:scary:

[OTMTRX]

Ahh random left over parts!! Always a worry! lol.. Could be you got it with that extra shim... you never know who the last guy in there was! Try it.

What Jake said too... make sure you dots are lined up on counterbalance shaft / gear.

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by OTMTRX
Ahh random left over parts!! Always a worry! lol.. Could be you got it with that extra shim... you never know who the last guy in there was! Try it.

What Jake said too... make sure you dots are lined up on counterbalance shaft / gear. the dots on the counterbalancer not being lined up shouldnt cause any ticking, but it will cause a terrible vibration.and eventually destroy your bearings..

ive had to fix someones that was not lined up, and it made no noise, but would make the bottom of your feet numb:rolleyes:

[Jake250ex]

when the counterbalancer bearings get worn they will start to tick. someone told me borich was the one that discovered this on his hondas, theyd rebuild everything and still hear the noise

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by Jake250ex
when the counterbalancer bearings get worn they will start to tick. someone told me borich was the one that discovered this on his hondas, theyd rebuild everything and still hear the noise LOL I would hope Borich has new mechanics, any pro mechanic that doesnt at least check if not replace every bearing during a teardown should be fired !LOL

BUT you would be able to feel the vibration through the bars and pegs,and there would be metal in the filter and bolts will get loose or lost

if it still runs smooth but ticks, its more then likely not the counterbearing...

you can usually feel bearings going before hearing them, if there at the piont of making a loud noise there are other symptoms way before ticking

[fastredrider44]

I bet it's your cam. Some cam's are just plain noisy. It might be a pain in the ***, but you could swap cams and I bet your noise will stop. I've had some HCs that ticked and some that didn't, but I just replaced everything on my race motor, and she's still noisy. It might be one of those things you have to look past.

[Jake250ex]

Originally posted by DnB_racing
LOL I would hope Borich has new mechanics, any pro mechanic that doesnt at least check if not replace every bearing during a teardown should be fired !LOL



your right im sure your better than his mechanic.

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by Jake250ex
your right im sure your better than his mechanic. lol , I must be, at least I can find a bad bearing:D

think of it this way, if Borich is relying on his mechanic to let him finish the races, you would hope he has enough skill to know a good from a bad bearing when its in his hand...its not rocket science..

bearings give PLENTY of warnings before they fail, if you are smart enough to pay attention:devil:


I take back saying he should be fired for not replacing all the bearing, and replace that with .... he should go back to his trailer park and stick to sharpening lawn mower blades for not being smart enough to know when to change a bearing:blah:

[fastredrider44]

I find it almost difficult to believe that Borich had a motor for that long.

[goober400]

i reasembled it last nite minus the extra shim to no avail still there ticking away.im no mechanic just have about enuff ability with the manuel to get by lol.
anywats counter balancer is fine as are bearings
i had the crank balanced and trued welded and it vibrates no more than my stock crank 06 does.
im convinced its in the cam/shims im not real good at setting up the proper valve lash and i dont have a shim kit.
after 4 or 5 trips to the stealership to get shims last week i just decided to take it in today and let them have a stab at it.
cant relly afford it told them no more than 3/400 to fix if any more to just stop and i would come get it.
if they dont fix it im going to part it out ex riders get first dibst it....

[KEVIN132]

ok is the cam new??? if it was in when it siezed or locked up sometimes the cam actually moves.. this is why baldwin and other weld theres so it dont move on u. if its off even a hair it will cause issues..

[goober400]

its the same cam that was in it im guessing but it is the one that came with it in the box of parts hot cams stage 2.
i did notice no matter what clearance i had the exhaust valves set at that the roller would not ride on the cam until the lobe actually got ready to open it.as it was going over the base circle of the cam the roller was not touching the cam.

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by goober400
its the same cam that was in it im guessing but it is the one that came with it in the box of parts hot cams stage 2.
i did notice no matter what clearance i had the exhaust valves set at that the roller would not ride on the cam until the lobe actually got ready to open it.as it was going over the base circle of the cam the roller was not touching the cam. if Im understanding you right....the exhaust rocker roller doesn't touch the cam unless it at the start of the increase of the size of the lobe? is it acting like the spring is not returning the roller to follow the cam?

if so check your decompressor and make sure it moves freely, if cam tower is over torqued or improperly torqued it can cause binding, and check to be sure its working properly and all parts are in place

[KEVIN132]

Mite just be the cam...put a stocker in just to chk

[Insanity18]

might also check the roller and bearing on the cam tower, have seen them going out in the 05's here lately

[goober400]

well finally got the call from the shop today shew took long enuff...
cylinder bore is way to worn and the piston was hitting the head is what they said.thou the noise was a clearly defined tick not a knock or hitting sound.anyways just told him to go big bore cylinder and piston i already have the +3 crank and stage 2 hot cam so should wake it up a little

[fastredrider44]

Uh... Is that a reputable shop? Cause a new cylinder isn't going to fix a piston hitting the head. That's probably the wrong piston for that crank. :eek2:

[d3ktrix]

Yeah how would a worn cylinder cause the piston to hit the head. Its not like the cylinder gets shorter lol.

Maybe because the piston was rocking in the bore?
Can a nikasil cylinder wear THAT much without flaking?

What kind of fuel are u using?

[goober400]

exactly he showed me the cylinder today the chrome was wore thru on the front and rear of the cylinder and the piston was rocking in the bore it was a time bomb waiting to go off.

[d3ktrix]

ah, it changed that much from when u put it together and only saw minimal scoring that u described in the original post?

[goober400]

what i thought was minimal apparently was not it did look like a diffrent color or shine in the cylinder where the skirt rode in the cylinder but i thought it was normal.i relly dont see that as the tick i was hearing it was a clear ticking noise like a loose rocker arm or valve tick.
anywho as loong as he gets it lined out at this point i dont care i was going to go with a big bore anyways later when i had the funds but guess now will work as well i will just have to pass on new tires for a month or two lol.