GNCC 4 stroke cc upgrade rule?

[T@AFP]

I heard rumors that the GNCC may increase the current 4 stroke 125cc to 150cc.

Personally, I welcome the idea. It is a long time coming.

With today's technology on the 70cc-90cc 2 strokes. It only makes sense to allow a bigger cc on the 125cc 4 strokes and even the "playing field".
Some of the 90cc 2 strokes are putting out 20+ horse power. Compared to the Raptor 125cc is barely putting out 10 horse power after...High compression piston, Pipe, Carb,cam,ignition and porting.
The stock HSP on the Raptor was barely 5 HSP.

I spoke with Jeff Canfield from Racer Productions and he said they would discuss and perhaps vote on this at the banquet.
Unfortunately, I doubt I can attend.

I would encourage you to voice your opinion at that time or drop them a email.

[miniquaddad90]

How about bringing the "super mini" class back??
105cc 2-smoke max
150cc 4-stroke max
:eek2:

[chunky0071]

Originally posted by miniquaddad90
How about bringing the "super mini" class back??
105cc 2-smoke max
150cc 4-stroke max
:eek2:

I 2nd. that motion!

[T@AFP]

I wish!!
I've been trying to get that back for years.

But what I'm told is since the Yamaha and Can Am are sponsoring most of the races. They need to keep it "production".

[miniquaddad90]

on that note.... keep it production and just bump the CC limit. I know for a fact we can get the Honda motors up to 140cc, Yam up to 150cc, and ****sters up to 150cc

[TKEETH]

what bore and stroke are you going to use to get the honda to 140cc.

[miniquaddad90]

Originally posted by TKEETH
what bore and stroke are you going to use to get the honda to 140cc.

Top secret :devil:

I will say that 157cc is obtainable on a Honda also.... but good luck keeping it togehter. There is a few of us that have tried going past the cookie cutter 54mmX54mm but... not for racing, just for fun. I think "Wolfpack" on here or something like that did one of the 137cc motors a while back

[FISH ON!]

I had an interesting thought................ How cool would it be if we could take the top three overall and put their bikes on a dyno after the race? I know there's a few trailer dynos out there some where. The only thing we would argue about then is what % reduction you give the CVT for it's belt driven efficiency loss..........and there is no exact science to that argument.

Oh....... Tom, you really think those Cobras are putting out that much HP?

When I seen this last race on the track, I came to realize that our quad is much to fast to be on the track at the same time as this little fella.....bless his heart. He deserves to race as much as anybody, i'm just concerned about the safety aspect for the little guys as we make the quads faster for the bigger kids.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e57/striperfishn/2011%20Racing/Lil-quad.jpg

[miniquaddad90]

I would def say the HP numbers are up there. I know the built hondas are putting 11-15hp at the back tires. And after seeing the Cobras and built DRR/Apexs run off and leave them theyve gotta be in the 15-20+ range. Hell, look at a bone stock KX65 putting 15+ down

I think that parents and promoters need to take a little closer look at the racers machines and class structure. I agree the lil guy deserves to race, but its the parents job to look around, maybe watch a race or two and realize, that little guy needs a different machine to be safe on a race track. I see it time and time again, old machine, no suspension, kid is WAY too big for the machine, but yeah, dad.... throw him out there, he'll be fine...:rolleyes:

[zach R 7x]

Originally posted by FISH ON!
I had an interesting thought................ How cool would it be if we could take the top three overall and put their bikes on a dyno after the race? I know there's a few trailer dynos out there some where. The only thing we would argue about then is what % reduction you give the CVT for it's belt driven efficiency loss..........and there is no exact science to that argument.

Oh....... Tom, you really think those Cobras are putting out that much HP?

When I seen this last race on the track, I came to realize that our quad is much to fast to be on the track at the same time as this little fella.....bless his heart. He deserves to race as much as anybody, i'm just concerned about the safety aspect for the little guys as we make the quads faster for the bigger kids.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e57/striperfishn/2011%20Racing/Lil-quad.jpg

Was this at a gncc national or a local race? Big difference between the two. I have seen this many times at the local races in mx, but never at a mx national event.

If this happens at a national event, somebody should step in and ask the parents what they are thinking?!
I am a firm believer you don't start your kid at the top level of racing, no matter how good he rides in the woods or yard.

[chunky0071]

He was at the Last GNCC.

[miniquaddad90]

Originally posted by chunky0071
He was at the Last GNCC.

UGHHHH! I just want to ask the parents, WTF are you thinking.....

[chunky0071]

Your right about that. My little Girl will start next year no way I would put her out there for a while!

[FISH ON!]

It was a GNCC National.

[T@AFP]

Yes I do. At least the CVT's and Cobra's at the MX National's.
The 90 "too fast" motors are putting out over 20 hsp.
My son's old 70 cvt RT motor was one of the slower motors in the circuit last year and was putting out 15 hsp.


I agree on making the bikes too fast for the riders. I know for a fact, my son is too inexperienced to be riding a big bore in the woods right now. He's a pretty good MX'er but his XC skill.....not so good....yet.
His first XC race he made it 6 minutes. (proof from helmet cam)
Tried passing a rider through the tree's and crashed big time into a tree.
But, if his motor was faster, he may of been able to pass that rider, safely in the field. Dunno...


However, this is racing. In order to make the classes "fair". We have to keep the machines as close to "apples to apples" as we can.




Originally posted by FISH ON!
I had an interesting thought................ How cool would it be if we could take the top three overall and put their bikes on a dyno after the race? I know there's a few trailer dynos out there some where. The only thing we would argue about then is what % reduction you give the CVT for it's belt driven efficiency loss..........and there is no exact science to that argument.

Oh....... Tom, you really think those Cobras are putting out that much HP?

When I seen this last race on the track, I came to realize that our quad is much to fast to be on the track at the same time as this little fella.....bless his heart. He deserves to race as much as anybody, i'm just concerned about the safety aspect for the little guys as we make the quads faster for the bigger kids.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e57/striperfishn/2011%20Racing/Lil-quad.jpg

[zach R 7x]

I know for a fact there are CVT's in the mx national ranks that are putting out 20 or more HP. There is NO 125 four stroke going to run with them to the first turn.... Maybe after that rider may take over.

This is why the four stoke has not evolved into the minis like they have with big quads.

[zach R 7x]

Originally posted by miniquaddad90
UGHHHH! I just want to ask the parents, WTF are you thinking.....

This was my first thought also when I first saw the picture. Then I thought.... Man... I did this to my son when he was 7!
Back in 06 we actually started racing HS, some people we met suggested we go to the next gncc race at southern Ohio. We did and raced on a Kazuma 90. I didn't know anything about these quads or racing back then, seemed like the thing to do... Well out of 20 plus riders in his class, Zach finish 3rd and made the podium!!! Out of the 100 plus trophies he has, I still charish that 3rd place plaque the most!!

If I would of went and watched one of these races prior, I would of not even thought of putting him in it.

[FISH ON!]

Tom............ I found your answer to equality. See link below and your 4-strokers will run with the 2-smokers.

http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=477147

[mmsoup]

I started to reply to this last night and erased everything........I just don't want to stir the pot


BUT

I would vote no for 150 4 strokes for a few reasons

1. A fully built Takegawa Honda will indeed run with or beat all but the strongest CVT's and Cobra's and definitely be more reliable

2. The Takegawa motors don't cost much more than a National CVT and sometimes less

3. The Yamahas are the "latest" thing at the GNCC's but are not really even a factor at the ATVA National's, which says to me that people are building cheaper machines that will finish in the woods and now instead of investing in costlier race equipment they want to use cubic inches. So if that is their answer then 2 Strokes need to be 105cc and of course once you do that it all starts again and on and on

4. Finally, A cobra once again took the youth overall due to good preparation and a good rider. There were other Cobra's that lined up that were occasionally fast but didn't have anywhere near the same results. A yamaha finished 2nd, 3rd and 5th overall in National numbers as well behind the Cobra so I fail to see the need for the extra cc's


So I agree with bringing back a Super Mini class for the 150's and Cobra's like we suggested at the banquet last year and let the 125's race with the CVT's. The CVT's are less reliable but generally faster and vice versa

Somehow after the meeting last year, all the shifters got put into the front row and now the classes are all out of whack.

For petes sake, Zach and Charley had 4 people on their row occasionally while the front row had 20 and then Zach and Charley ran right through them

OK sorry but I had to get that out................soapbox retired

[miniquaddad90]

Any news after banquet?

[FISH ON!]

I stuck around for the rider meeting on Saturday and like last year the youth were last. Only about 5 or 6 rider parents were there. I hesitated to repond because last year I walked away thinking one thing but the change that was made wasn't exactly like we discussed in the meeting. Anyhow, the mtg was long but very informative.

The answer to this string is that the 150cc was shot down in the meeting.

[miniquaddad90]

Originally posted by FISH ON!
I stuck around for the rider meeting on Saturday and like last year the youth were last. Only about 5 or 6 rider parents were there. I hesitated to repond because last year I walked away thinking one thing but the change that was made wasn't exactly like we discussed in the meeting. Anyhow, the mtg was long but very informative.

The answer to this string is that the 150cc was shot down in the meeting.

Any other news or changes discussed?

Thanks

[FISH ON!]

Lots of discussion but not a lot of changes. The only change that sounded like might happen is eliminating the 90 Mod (12-15) class and expanded the age for the 90 Mod (8-11) to (8-12). This was due to the 90 Mod classes not getting the desired min of 10 racers. The 13-15 CVT Mod kids that got dropped will run the Open class.

We talked a lot about Cobras, Apex 85 and homologation as well. The Apex 85 is AMA approved for next year !!!! Look out for that machine. If you go out and buy a new 2012 Cobra you really wouldn't be running a production machine. However, if you say you were just upgrading your 2009 model, then your good to go because Cobra has superseded the older parts with the new stuff.

Thats about it. We are stoked about the competition on the front row and cant wait for the green flag to drop in FL.

Oh......... I suggested they consider breaking out a 4-stroke LIMITED class for the folks who dont want or have the bucks to mod it out. There was zero interest in that but i think that''s only because no limited 4-stroke riders were in there. That may be one folks want to ask for during the comment period. It may have to be 8-15 years old to get enough riders though.