roll design arms

[hartwill]

Can anyone explain to me how roll design a-arms are castor adjustable when they have non adjustable frame mounts on upper and lower arms? The only real adjustment I see is on the top ball joint, everything else seems to be in a fixed position.

[hartwill]

Also, I talked to Paige at roll design yesterday and she said they only made two versions of arms for the 250r +1.5 +1 for xc and +2.5 +1 for mx. But I could have swore I have seen +4 roll arms before. Anybody know?

[liverideatv]

I know for a fact there are +4 because I spoke to doug roll the other day about my narrow front CR500 chassis and he said it requires the plus 4 a-arms.

[liverideatv]

http://www.exriders.com/archive/topic/72589-1.html

[SilverLake250R]

Yes, Roll Design LOBO Arms could have been +4, but they do not fit standard 250R chassis, so they will not help.

[hartwill]

I have the bottom arms getting powder coated I should get them back today, but I mounted the uppers and tie rods and spindles on my arens frame, everything seems to fit fine but when I stuck my wheels on there just to see how wide I was gonna be I was at 52" with 4/1 offset. I know its not the way to do it but I just wanted a quick idea. Will neither top or bottom arms fit or just bottoms? These uppers fit nice.

[liverideatv]

My chassis is a 1996 (Pre-Lobo) and it came with +4 a-arms

[hartwill]

I got them from this guy, but I can't even tell what kind of chassis that was. Lonestar?? I'm looking on my phone but I can't make it out. I know some people had some problems with his stuff but I'm hoping this isn't going to be another one.
http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=475650

[liverideatv]

Yes is is a lsr chassis

[rayman375]

Those arms should fit your frame if they fit the LSR frame.

[guy310]

So you mounted everything but the lower a-arms and the shocks and put the quad on the ground? Really?? Get everything together and then measure it.

[RyanWsly]

I had a set of +3 Lobo a-arms 4-1 offset wheels put it at 48.5ish to 49. Roll did make +3s for a TRX250R frame my friend still has them. seems like the lowers measured 17"something. They had a set castor and adjustable camber.

[89trx250r]

Pretty sure i remember that guy saying those were 400ex aarms maybe thats why your having an issue...

[205dke187]

Those a arms came off of a 2001 lonestar 250r chassis. I sold a set of laegers arms that where 400ex but they will work on the 250r as well.

[hartwill]

Originally posted by 205dke187
Those a arms came off of a 2001 lonestar 250r chassis. I sold a set of laegers arms that where 400ex but they will work on the 250r as well.
Hey, do you remember how wide you were with these and with what off set wheels? Thanks.

[deathman53]

I have roll design a-arms, I was told they are +3. Its something like 49" sitting on quad. It does use 400ex spindles, maybe that is your problem.

[205dke187]

50" outside to outside of the wheels. I used them on that lsr frame with those spindles I sent with nacs hubs and a 4-1 offset wheel. I measured just to the outside of the WHEELS. If you are measuring tires too, that might be the difference.

[hartwill]

I'm using the 400ex spindles. I hope its 50" I can live with that but 52" would be too much.. I hope I get them back from powder coat today.
My only other question is the caster thing, on there website they say all their arms are Camber and caster adjustable but I don't see how.

[205dke187]

Im not sure about that. I had a mechanic set it up for me.

[hartwill]

Well, just like I thought I'm at 52"... How is this possible? The lady there said they only made +2.5 and +1.5 arms, I know it was mentioned they made +4 arms but they only worked with the lobo chassis. I can't even get my axle wide enough to match the front. What do you guys think?
On a side note it does look pretty sweet:ermm: http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x407/hartwill/Snapbucket/9f53148d-c5e1-43c7-8bae-3ebd066e5e20.jpg

[RyanWsly]

4+1 wheels? from what I remember the rim should be closer to the nut on the upper spindle adapter. I talked to Doug Roll about the ones I had, the space between the wheel and the nut on the spindle adapter is only like 1/2" or something like that. He also said he used to 400ex spindles because they were readiliy available when the stock cast ones broke, there isn't much difference in them. I am guessing you have +3's and I would make sure your wheel offset is correct. They were designed to run with Douglas 4+1's is what I was told and that was the only wheel he knew of that would work with them in a 4+1 offset. My ITP 4+1s cleared, but OEM wheels hit that upper nut. Mine did have OEM spindles on it when I measured and checked everything. If you can't figure it out I would call and talk to Doug himself, he was helpful when I spoke with him and seemed to be very interested in supporting his product even though it was old. I was very impressed with him when I spoke with him.

[hartwill]

Yes they ate 4/1 offset hipers. That's what I don't understand. With my +2s with stock wheels and spindles I was a little over 47"so you would think that even with +3 and 4/1 wheel the most I would be is 49". These 400ex spindles must be quite a bit different.

[SilverLake250R]

That really doesn't make sense. I think all of the Roll arms are designed to use 400ex spindles, so there shouldn't be a problem there...

I am running what I had assumed to be +3, but maybe they are +2.5, either way, MX arms, with 400ex spindles and 4/1 Hipers and I sit at exactly 49.5" at ride height.

The only thing I can think of is maybe this is a really early set of arms that were designed for 250r spindles? I believe 400ex spindles add somewhere around 1/2" overall width, but that still should not get you to 52". I am almost 100% sure that the arms off a Lobo chassis would not bolt up to a stock geometry frame. The only part that you can use on a stock frame from a Lobo chassis is the swingarm, and that requires a custom no-link shock, 15.5" long.

Here's a pic of my setup with the Hipers, maybe someone can pick out the difference between my setup and hartwill's.

[Mony25]

Im with silver lake pretty sure lobo a arms wont fit but i got you my lobo dimesions anyway didnt have my stock frame here to compare for you.

a arms mounts where it mounts to the frame outside to outside is 10 inches. inside to inside is 7 inches. and the overall a arm length from where spindle adapter goes through a arm to where a arm bolts to frame is 19 1/4. These are also mx arms

[liverideatv]

Lobo arms will not fit, But they made +4 A-Arms for a Stock 250r as well. I have a 1996 Roll Design Chassis that take +4 A-Arms.

[RyanWsly]

After a certain year he switched to 400EX spindles, he said the stock 250R cast spindles were breaking on MX guys and that was the replacement he can up with. No idea of the difference it would make, just telling you what he told me when I spoke with him.

[rayman375]

Will, looking at your picture and silverlake's picture it looks like the wheels are different, look at the space between the rim and the top ball joint. It's hard for me to see in the picture of yours but it looks like yours sticks out further than his. Could be the wheel or spindle is different.

[Meat]

Here's my setup. '89 R with Rolls MX arms, 400ex spindles and Hiper 4:1 rims and 19 inch shocks. I was right around 48-1/2 to 49 inches.
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh165/bansheezone/Red%20250R/FILE0013.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh165/bansheezone/Red%20250R/FILE0012-1.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh165/bansheezone/Riding%202009/August/FILE0001-3.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh165/bansheezone/Riding%202009/May/FILE0026.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh165/bansheezone/Red%20250R/April%2024th%202009/FILE0006.jpg

[D Bergstrom]

At what ride height are you measuring? Width should be measured at ride height with rider on the quad. As the quad gets lower, the quad will get wider. Also, from what point to what point are you measuring to on the tires? Depending on your toe/camber settings and at what parts you are measuring from, you could get drastically different measurements.

Once you get you ride height, toe, and camber adjusted, get two cans of brake cleaner, paint, beer, etc and place them at the middle of the tires so the can is against the side wall of the tire and flat on the ground. Carefully get on the quad and let it settle to ride height, this will push the cans out a little and they will slide against the floor. Get off the quad and push it away from the cans. Measure between the cans and that is your width.

Doug

[guy310]

And those aren't 4+1 offset wheels either. Those are 3+2. There is your other 2 inches. 4+1's will cover the brake calipers.

[hartwill]

I'm gonna get some better pics today and post up here. I hope that if is just the wheels are 3/2 instead of 4/1 but they sure look like 4/1 to me. I really appreciate all your help guys. That's why I love this forum..

[hartwill]

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x407/hartwill/Snapbucket/44cb8a8f-7f27-476e-a2c2-6da4f01f53ee.jpg
http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x407/hartwill/Snapbucket/dc5074fb-6fe0-46da-88a5-a62a940f41c2.jpg
http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x407/hartwill/Snapbucket/62efe32b-0711-4e9f-ae94-cb154404aba2.jpg

[rayman375]

Damn dude, I really don't know. Have you measured the over all length of the lower arms? Maybe Meat or Silverlake can measure theirs also for comparison.

[Meat]

My Roll arms are off the frame right now. I can get some measurements for you. My 49 inch measurement was with no rider and just a tape measure from edge of tire to edge of tire.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh165/bansheezone/Red%20250R/FILE0017.jpg

[hartwill]

My 52" measurement was with no rider also, lol. If you could post up some numbers for me that's would be great. Thanks again.

[Meat]

I'll get us some pictures and measurements soon.

I bought my Hipers new and mine are surely a 4:1 offset. Its hard to tell in the pictures, but yours does look a little more offset then mine. Its hard to tell.

What length shock is everyone using ? Mine are 19 inches even.

[Michael88R]

My shocks are 18.75". Some say that is correct and some say it is not. Elka said mx set ups were 18.75 and desert/xc are 19.25. I bought them new for the lobo front with stock frame and that is what elka gave me.

[89trx250r]

hartwill you definatley have 4-1 offset wheels.The problem to me looks like your trying to set your ride height to low for more width my friend had the same issue on his walsh we had to bump the shocks up a few clicks and it pulled it right in width and handles just as good it just doesnt sit as low...

[rayman375]

Will, what is the length of your shocks?

[hartwill]

I believe they are 4/1 offset hipers. My shocks are 19.25" long and my ride height is set at 8.75" in the front. I'm begining to think these are +4s from an older roll chassis, that's the only thing I can come up with.

[Meat]

http://youtu.be/Cu8NMfl5AlM

[hartwill]

That's awesome. Thank I really appreciate your taking the time to do that. I Will mesure mine tonight and reply with a verdict...

[SilverLake250R]

I'll try to remember to measure the length of my upper and lower arms. My 49.5" measurement was with me on it using the paint can method. My front hipers are non-beadlock tech 3's so maybe they are a little closer to a true 4/1 rim.

[hartwill]

I measured my wheels, if I measured from the outer side of the billet center to the outer lip of the rim, its just about exactly 1". Now if I measure from the back side where it connects to the hub to the outer lip, its almost exactly 2". Which measurement is correct?

[RyanWsly]

You have 4+1s. check your messages

[hartwill]

Just checked, thanks. So I'm as narrow as I can go with rims, and the 250r spindles will only bring me back 1/2" narrower at the most, I'm running out of options here I get off at two and first thing I'm doing is measuring arms. My only other hope is talking to Doug Roll himself whom has been supposed to call me back for almost 2 weeks, the lady there swears they have never made a +4 that would fit a stock chassis.
Is it possible these are another brand?

[RyanWsly]

So the spindles are basically the same? I only had the hub and was wondering about the rest.

[hartwill]

Yes they are pretty similar. When I talked to roll design before they said their a-arms were built around the 400ex spindles that's why they have +1.5" and +2.5" a-arms instead of +2s and +3s.
With hubs and spindles there is about 1/2" difference.

[RyanWsly]

1" overall then, the rest could be difference in wheel manufacture they were designed for just guessing. Doug Roll told me he specificly designed his parts to run with Douglas 4-1 wheels and those were the only ones he worked with. I would bet those are Roll or one of the people I have seen post on here would have spotted it, they IDed mine for me pretty easily when I was unsure.

[rayman375]

JRD made their arms look just like Roll, I remember seeing a picture of their arms being made in the shop with a Roll Design box sitting under the bench.

[hartwill]

That's great info ill have to look into, but first I need to measure everything now that Meat posted that awesome video..

Anyone know if there's another hub/spindle combo I can use that would make it narrower? I guess that's my only other option aside from selling these and starting over or trading.

What about that new LTR spindle/hub and brake set up. I seen Walsh said that's the best set up ever.. I doubt its an inch narrower though.

[D Bergstrom]

Originally posted by RyanWsly
Doug Roll told me he specificly designed his parts to run with Douglas 4-1 wheels and those were the only ones he worked with.

This could also account for about 1/2" to 1" in overall width. I have never owned Hipers myself, but I was told by someone I trust that the Hiper beadlocks are not a true 4:1 wheel. He said they are in between a 3.75:1.25 to 3.5:1.5 offset. Again, never been able to measure for myself, just what I was told.

I am still surprised you are this wide. Yeah, you are using 400EX spindles, but it seems as though Roll accounted for that extra width in their design from what the lady on the phone told you. I would keep trying to talk to Doug Roll directly, hopefully he will have some insight for you.

Keep us posted on what you find out.

Doug

[hartwill]

I was kinda wondering that before, I measured my wheels and from the outside of the billet center part of the rim to the outer lip was 1" exactly and from the inner side of the center part that would but up against the hub to the same outer lip is 2" exactly. So I wasn't sure if I have 4/1 or 3/2 offset wheels but a few people told me they are 4/1s.

[D Bergstrom]

Wheel offset is measured from the inside edge, or surface that is against the hub, to the inside of the bead, basically where the edge of the tire sits. Sounds like you are measuring to the very out side edge of the wheel, which would be a larger measurement. From what you measured, I am guessing the measurement to the inside of the bead is about 1.5", so looks like a Hiper 4:1 wheel is closer to a 3.5:1.5 wheel.

Doug

[hartwill]

Well I just found my answer, but if roll never made them then who did? Or does someone not know what she's talking about. Oh sorry for the dirty R very disrespectful I know.
http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x407/hartwill/Snapbucket/9b75783a-c2f3-4a05-8df8-4b4c0936bdff.jpg

[D Bergstrom]

I am going to guess she doesn't know what she is talking about! I would still keep trying to get a hold of Doug Roll, he would be the one who should now exactly what you have.

Doug

[Meat]

17-3/4 ??

[hartwill]

It was real close to 18" I must have moved a little bit while trying to get my phone out to snap a pic..