Time for a 416?

[Stickman400]

Well I went outside earlier to go for a short ride and I saw some oil on the side of my head. I checked it out and it looks like the head gaskets blown, because the oil stops right at where the jug meets the head. 7 years and it finally let go. So is it time for a rebuild?

http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/Stickman400/Quad%20Pics/IMAG0230.jpg
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/Stickman400/Quad%20Pics/IMAG0231.jpg
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/Stickman400/Quad%20Pics/IMAG0232.jpg

[dxcody]

Depends what the piston and cylinder look like on the inside..

May just be able to get a headgasket..

But you did say it was 7 years old so it deff wont hurt to do a rebuild on it

[01boneless]

what makes you think it needs a rebuild just because oil? lol probley just needs a gasket but if you have the money rebuild it lol

[Stickman400]

Well I am probably jumping to conclusions here. But I mostly said that because Im getting tired of my motor being stock. Im gettn ancy and wanting to beef it up. Not that its lacking on power, but after 7 years I want to have that feeling of "unknown" power again. The feeling you get when you buy a new quad thats bigger than your last.

[dxcody]

416 11:1 on stock studs
426 11:1 with HD headstuds..

11:1 IMO is great.

You cant use a sparks key with it, BUT you will see more improvment with a 11:1 rather than a 10:1 with a timing key.. Many people on this site say the timing key didnt do much for them..

You could always go 440, but then you have to invest in a few different mods to relieve the motor of some of the heat.
(well its not a 100% must do but its highly reccomended)

But a 416 11:1 compression stage 2 hotcam is a very commonly used build. You see quite a bit of difference with no major heat issues. You can run stock studs, and never hardly blow headgaskets. I ran the piss out of mine and never even really felt like it got any hotter than a stock motor.

[chronicsmoke]

I would resist the urge to rebuild it completely until you have money for a cam, and a port and polish at the least.. (450r carb would be icing on the cake)

Just the big bore won't give you that much of an increase with the stock cam. You'll get more TQ, but i didnt find mine that impressive until I opened up the ports and installed a stage 2 cam.

[Honda#4]

I agree with chronicsmoke the cam makes a world of difference with these 416 builds, my 416 runs flawless and I never feel like I need more power.

[Stickman400]

Yea, Ill prolly be getting the 416 11:1 with a Stage 2 cam, p&p, CRF450 timing chain, then the 450R carb sometime after all that. Ill also have my vavle train checked while Im getting all that done to make sure everything is good up top also.

[dxcody]

hey i see in your sig, that you have a crotch rocket battery.. how does that do? Make it start any quicker??

[Stickman400]

CJM gave me the idea. It seems like it does better that the stock battery. It has 40 more cold cranking amps than the stocker and can turn it over with more energy for a longer time before slowing down. And its the AGM style so it wont spill and its maintenence free. Good upgrade if you ask me, not needed, but nice to know you have it.

[CJM]

Turns over my 416 stag 2 HC very good. I bought it due to the extra 40 cold cranking amps it puts out.

its the same size as the stocker too btw.

[AtvKid4Eva]

if your going to add a 416 id definitely get the HD head studs. You'll never have to worry about that head gasket again :D

[Stickman400]

Ok well I go to tearing it down and got everything off and went to pull the silencer off the header so I could get the header out of the head and the damn thing is practically welded together. It uses a band clamp and I guess with all the water and heat it just fused to two together and now I cant get them seperated. WTF. I don't want to heat it up too much because I'll ruin the header. What should I do? Also I'm going to order a new gasket for the head so should I get the MLS type Cometic, or just get a stocker?
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/Stickman400/Quad%20Pics/IMAG0233.jpg
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/Stickman400/Quad%20Pics/IMAG0234.jpg

[CJM]

Stick a torch on it for a minute, it wont do any damage to the pipe. When its good and hot try to twist it off, if all else fails take a screwdriver and a hammer and give it a good whack after its hot.


Your call on stocker or cometic, me I like cometics but the stockers do work ok usually.

[dxcody]

Originally posted by CJM
Stick a torch on it for a minute, it wont do any damage to the pipe. When its good and hot try to twist it off, if all else fails take a screwdriver and a hammer and give it a good whack after its hot.


Your call on stocker or cometic, me I like cometics but the stockers do work ok usually.

x2 i am also a fan of cometic.. Cheap and great quality

Mine was like that with my stock exhaust and i skipped the heating it up process (not saying it wouldnt work just saying i didnt do it) and i took a slot tip screw driver and a rubber mallet and gave it my all lol

Also i may have to invest in one of those batteries, that is after my brand new one goes bad.

[01boneless]

just wack the end of the silencer with a rubber malet and it should pop right off.

[Stickman400]

Well I managed to get the exhaust off by taking the sub-frame off and sliding the exhaust off to the side. I tried heating it for 2 or 3 mintues and then prying/twisting/smacking on it and it did nothing. Anyway I got the valve cover off after snapping one of the bolts off and now I have no idea how to get the chain off the cam. I removed the tensioner and it's still tight. Also here is a pic of my timing. Anybody have anything useful to add? I have no idea what I'm doing so I'm probably gonna get a Clymer manual tomorrow.
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/Stickman400/Quad%20Pics/IMAG0235.jpg

[CJM]

Well, the chain should still be somewhat tight, but not impossible to move.

Remove the cam gear, those 2 allen head bolts and slide the cam and cam gear out.

If anything try moving the crank by hand (bolt on the side with the 10mm hex head cap on it) b/c if the chains binding slightly more than likely.

[Stickman400]

That's what I thot you would have to do, but I thought you could just pick it up and off after taking the tensioner off. Also would this be the MLS type gasket kit I need? http://www.motosport.com/atv/product/COMETIC-TOP-END-GASKET-KIT/?id=109388

[CJM]

Its still attached down by the clutch, it wont come off till you take everything off down there. If anything like I said its probably binding slightly down in the clutch area where you cant see it.

As for the gaskets, they seem like the right ones. but cant tell much from the generic pictures.

This is where I got mine, same seller and everything (copy/paste link). Seller ID is phddatsun

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/cometic-top-end-gasket-kit-honda-trx400ex-400ex-c7825-/190518644764?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c5bcbd01c

[Stickman400]

Alright, thanks for the link, I'll be getting those since they're cheaper and you know what you're getting. I'll be getting back on the quad tomorrow. I'll be updating this thread as I get it torn down and see what I find. Thanks for the help guys!

[CJM]

Welcome :)

[dxcody]

be sure not to drop either of the cam bolts down into your crankcase! lol

[Stickman400]

Ok, got the cam off and the head pulled off, gasket looks fine. I think my problem is one of the long head bolts pulled the threads out of the jug and it wasn't holding that corner of the head down tight anymore and it just started leaking. So I need to either re-tap the threads for it or heli-coil it. Can you get a heli-coil that small? Here's a pic of the bolt I'm talking about.
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/Stickman400/Quad%20Pics/IMAG0237.jpg
And here's a pic of the bottom of my head and valves.
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/Stickman400/Quad%20Pics/IMAG0236.jpg

[CJM]

Yes you can get helicoils that small, me I prefer to tap it to a 7mm or 1/4 bolt myself. Allen head preferably.

[Honda#4]

Those valves look pretty caked full of crap, just a tip, I would have cleaned up the head alittle better just so you don't get any junk in the motor.

[CJM]

Wire wheel in a grinder does wonders for the valves.

[01boneless]

been over the bolts before belive me lol i use helicoils and if done right there strong every bolt except 3 one my valve cover stripped including the one you have showed and i helicoiled them all you could retap it to 1/4 but chances are it will strip again later then your screwed unless you helicoil them out but ya your call and while your in there throw in some valve seals and re lap the valvs just a little tip for ya.

[Stickman400]

Well I got the cylinder off and cleaned up all the old paper gasket. Ordered some bolts and a few extra little parts I needed, along with the MLS Cometic gaskets. Took the cylinder and head to the local shop and they are going to install the heli-coil, hone the cylinder, clean the valves and remove the bolt I snapped off in the head. Should get it back tommorow or Friday morning. So I should have it back together next week when I get the gaskets and stuff. I'll keep you posted on how things go.

[Stickman400]

I called the shop and they said it was done but I could use new valves just because they old ones are worn. So should I go ahead and buy new ones? I am thinking I might aswell. So I'll prolly get Kibblewhite intake and exhaust along with their vavle spring kit. Thoughts? Here's what I'm gunna get: http://www.motosport.com/atv/category/ATV-Parts/Engine-Parts-and-Accessories/Valve-Train-and-Accessories/ 2 standard intake, 2 standard exhaust and the spring kit

[01boneless]

if you have the jack go ahead but check the guides also and hope they arent had lol

[Stickman400]

Alright, disregard that last post. I went over and talked to the guy that worked on it and he said that it only needed intake valves. But also said that the bore was egg-shaped and needed bored. He suggested I get the next size over in stock size to get it back into round. So he was saying just get new intake valves and boring it over to a new stock piston. He also said he has seen alot of 416s that have heating problems and they don't last very long just because the cylinder wall is so thin.

So I guess I'll hear what you guys say, but I'm probably just do what the guy said and do intakes and next size up in stock size for the piston. Seems like the best and easiest way to take care of it.

[chronicsmoke]

I don't know about that, I havent seen too many 416cc top ends cook from exessive heat.

I ran my 426 for years with the stock cooling system, stock cam, and stock valves.

Go ahead and do the next bore, you wont gain 75% more power from going up 10CC. Most of the power is hidden in the piston with a higher than stock compression.

I'd suggest Mark's (CJM) set up, as it is fairly common and has proven to be reliable. Build it right, build it once ;)

[CJM]

JETTING! Any bike is gonna run hot if its jetted to lean. Personally I like to run a bit rich, maybe 1 jet size at most. This way Im good all year round and I dont cook the topend prematurely. I never had overheating issues with my 416, yes the engine was hot but never insanely.

Personally Id do a 407, this way you have 2 more sizes you can bore it to before you either start over with a new cylinder or do a 440. Does the extra 10ccs matter-nope. As Chronic said-its all about compression. My friend runs a 407 11:1 setup and has been quite happy.

Use the setup in my signature as a guideline, its a proven setup.

[Stickman400]

I think I'm gunna do exactly that. But what size is a 407? And is he using a cam?

EDIT: Ok, I think I'm settling on a 406-407 11:1 piston(whatever it is), new intake valves and a Stage 2 Hotcam. So I need to now where's the best place to buy and what size is the piston?

[CJM]

86mm iirc, some call it a 406 some call it a 407 its all bs b/c the engine aint a true 400cc its 397cc lol.

Friends running a stage 1 cam, stays he likes it. Me I would run a stage 2 but he isnt really a topspeed kinda guy.

As for buying it, plenty of places to get stuff. I like to use ebay cause its usually cheaper tbh. You could give C&D Racing a call on the price if you want too since they are a site sponser. Me, I always use this guy Jeff at apex racing on ebay, he has always got the parts and is a great guy to deal with. he once shipped me some wrong gaskets and worked with me to get the right ones (which were more $$$) at no extra cost.

[Stickman400]

Alright, I'll do some looking and get that stuff ordered. Thanks again CJM, you're the best!

[CJM]

Arent I lol...

Good luck with the build!

[dxcody]

Originally posted by CJM
Arent I lol...

Good luck with the build!

Lol when im the first guy on a 400ex to go XC1 pro, CJM is gonna build my motors

:p

[Stickman400]

Alirght, here's an update for what I've bought and what I'm doing to the parts.

I took the cylinder and head to the local shop and had them install the heli-coil, remove the snapped bolt, clean up and install new Kibblewhite intake valves with new seals and they are boring the head out to 86mm.
Now for the parts, I bought a new Wiseco 11:1 86mm Piston Kit for $128 (from Honda East Toledo), a new Stage 2 Hot Cam for $130 (from Apex Racing, CJM ;)), a new top end Cometic MLS gasket kit for $29 and a set of GT Thunder HD studs for $60 just so I don't have to worry about that ever again.

I'll update it again when I get the parts and get them all installed. I'll prolly update it with pics of all the parts too, just because everyone loves shiny new parts.

[dxcody]

Sounds pretty good..

Sounds like its gonna be a monster lol :D

[CJM]

Word of caution about the gaskets-they shouldnt look like felt-they should be rubbery and feel like metal. you get the felt ones-DO NOT USE THEM, they are junk.

[Stickman400]

It's gunna be about another week before I get my parts back.:( But I got a few questions before I get them back. Should I use any kind of assembly lube? Should I use any kind of special oil or lube on the cam lobes and journals? And is there any little things that I should know during assembly? Like things I could forget or overlook? This is my first time putting a top-end together and I don't wanna mess anything up and ruin my motor. I have a Honda service manual to help me also, so I'll be going off that mostly.

[01boneless]

the best lube is oil dont soak every thing tho just a little on the gaskets and cylinder walls and cam and youl be golden. also dont forget the little spring and plunger and to torqe every thing to the specs cylinder bolts 33ft pounds head cap nuts 33 ft pounds and all valve cover bolts are 7ftlbs also remember to adjust your valves!!:D good luck its easy i think i could do mine with my eyes closed of corse ive had it apart 8 times lol

[crownandmonster]

You should definately use a quality assembly lube and generously coat the cam lobes and journals. You should put a light coating of motor oil on the wrist pin, piston skirt/ rings, and cylinder wall.

Also I don't know why he is reccomending to put oil on your gaskets, but don't do it.



Make sure to properly gap and stagger your rings on the piston.

Get all the carbon cleaned off the valves and get some lapping compound and lap them back in. Check for any serious cracking on the lip of the valve.

Check for any serious side and or up/down play in the rod before you even begin to build the top end. Usually rod bearings don't give you any issues, but better safe than sorry.

[01boneless]

its to dry up the gaskets to seal them but h*** idk anything excuse me for trying to help. and btw he had a valve job done and if the shop did not cup or lap the seats they are not worth a dime :chinese:

[Stickman400]

Yea, the head is getting all that done. I have a Hotcam so I won't need the spring and plunger and I'm putting Cometic MLS gaskets in and they are dry install. Also I'm using this break-in method: http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm But I'm wondering should I break in the cam and piston at the same time or one at a time? Because the piston I'm supposed to let get up to operating temperature before riding it, but I can't let the Hotcam idle while breaking it in.

[01boneless]

it wont hurt (not that i know anything) just let it warm up and ride after like 5 hours i always change the oil and run like 5 hours less than you normaly wound when you change the oil the next time want to get all the shavings and stuff out

[crownandmonster]

haha he really doesn't know what he is talking about. He is apparently so good at taking the top end apart and has done it 14 times, yet it still smokes. Don't put oil on any gasket.

Break in the cam following the directions. Your pistion and rings will break in fine using the cam break-in.

On first start just let it run 30 seconds- 1 minute while you check for leaks and what not. After that follow the hot-cam instructions and change the oil after the 30 minute break in.


A lot of people stress over breaking in the piston, when in reality, it is much less important than the cam. A camshaft is the most important/ vital internal component. It decides When and where all your hp is.

[01boneless]

^^ dude i dont even wanna go there becuase they will delete this boys thread . but no iv had it appart 5 times and ya it smoke stfu :blah: good day!

[CJM]

The cam bearings, the cam journals and the wristpin I always put moly assembly lube on.

Do not oil the gaskets.

btw a good torque wrench is a must, 33 foot-pounds for the head studs and bolts, any of the 8mm bolts get 7 foot pounds-i do it with a 1/4 drive ratchet and my hands.

[Stickman400]

Since my parts are taking SOOOO long to get back I'm gunna go ahead and get an '05 CRF450R timing chain and put that on. I'm also going to get a new tensioner because I think mine is seized up or something, because it won't move when I try to turn it with a screwdriver. I'm wondering if I need new guides though. They don't seem to have any wear at all except for one end has a slight wear mark in it. I guess the right thing to do is replace both just to be safe.

[CJM]

Yes those are worn, replace them.

As for the tensioner, remove the screw, stick small flathead in there and turn it-let flathead go and it should spring back-slow or no springback its bad.

Honestly Id replace it anyways, the things do wear out and you already bought everything else.

[Stickman400]

Ordered guides, chain and tensioner. So I tore off the clutch cover and all to get the chain off. Got it all apart and now I need to scrape the excess gasket off the case. Any secrets to getting this crap off? I have gasket remover but I don't want to get any overspray in the oil ports and have it clog them up. I'm using a razor blade that screws into a rubber handle. Here's a pic just for the heck of it.
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/Stickman400/Quad%20Pics/IMAG0280.jpg

EDIT: Ok, nevermind, I managed to get all of it off. I just had to attack it from all angles. :D

[CJM]

Yes, I know its a real pain lol.

[Stickman400]

Alright guys, I got my timing chain, still gotta wait for guides though. But I was going to torque the oil pump drive gear down to get that outta the way but it turns out I gotta have a special gear holder tool to do that. So I guess I'll see if I can borrow one from the local shop to get that done. Anyway I took some side-by-side pics of the 2 chains beside each other, and you can see that the pins and chain itself doesn't look more heavy duty than the 400s, but it is wider so I guess that would make it stonger. Anyway here's the pics, Enoy!
400 on top, 450 on bottom
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/Stickman400/Quad%20Pics/IMAG0281.jpg
400 on top, 450 on bottom
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/Stickman400/Quad%20Pics/IMAG0282.jpg
400 on right, 450 on left
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/Stickman400/Quad%20Pics/IMAG0283.jpg

[Stickman400]

Well I got the call from the shop earlier and they have gotten my head and cylinder done. They said they did everything BUT install the HD Studs. The mechanic said he looked at it and said he didn't want to do it because he was afraid to mess up the cylinder. He said I should return them or I risk ruining my cylinder, lol. So I guess I'm gunna have to wait another week or so before I get it back from GT Thunder. Man this sucks. Anyone know what the average turn around at GT Thunder is?

[dxcody]

they are usually pretty quick,, but on thier website they show the things they are working on and the progress on it.

[Stickman400]

Well crap, I was just reading through their description for the studs on their site and it says they cannot be installed if the cylinder has had heli-coils installed. And I just had the shop install 1 heli-coil for one of the valve cover bolts, sh#t. I guess I'll call them tommorow and see what they say. Boneless, do you have HD studs in your heli-coiled-to-hell cylinder?

[01boneless]

^^ haha no bro i never had heli coils down there exept those 2 long valve cover bolts. i recomend takin it to another machine shop im sure they can put them in if there is heli coils or not :confused:

[Stickman400]

Well I called GT Thunder and they said that I would have to buy a new cylinder, and I deff. aint doin that, so I guess they aren't goin in. On another note, what does everybody on here do to tighten the nut on the end of the crankshaft that holds the timing gear sprocket and oil pump drive gear on? Do you tighten it with an impact or do you hage something that holds it from moving?

[dxcody]

i had the same problem, i had to switch cylinders for the GTT studs.

It doesnt matter unless your head studs are heli coiled. Because they have to drill it out and tap it, and you cant drill through steel heli coil.

[Stickman400]

That's what I figured. So they COULD install them? Because the only bolt on my cylinder thats heli-coiled is 1 little 6mm bolt all the way over by timing chain hole. So its not even near the studs.

[dxcody]

I dont see why they couldnt but heck idk man. You can prolly pick up a cylinder on ebay for like $30 then just have them put your sleeve in it if they would do that. Im not sure.

Wish i could help more but i dont really know enough about them to help.

[hocman123]

gt can put in the studs they most have thought the stud was heilcoiled. but i would try to find another person locally to do it. The reason he got nervis is when u use the rollform tap it pushes material instead of cuts it out which can make the cylinder get a little bump in it but nothing heavy u could hone it out. the direction they send with the studs tells u it is important to rehone the cylinder after install.

in my experiance most mechanics that have never work with roll form taps dont like doing it but gt told me that u could tape it with a cutting tap and it is still a lot stronger thread because it is corse threads not fine. so thats what i did and i got no problems with my 11:1 piston with maybe 40-50 hours on it

[01boneless]

dude they are full of crap call gt and tell them that they are not helied they think u mean the studs are !!! the 6 mm bolt has nothin do do with it!!!!!

[CJM]

Originally posted by 01boneless
dude they are full of crap call gt and tell them that they are not helied they think u mean the studs are !!! the 6 mm bolt has nothin do do with it!!!!!

Exactly. Miscommunication thats all. The studs cant be helicoiled.

I use an impact to install that nut and the clutch basket nut.

[Stickman400]

Ok, yea, thats what I thought after I started thinking about it when you replied earlier cody. It was just a miscommunication. I tried calling them back before 4, but I think they are an hour ahead of me so I missed them today. So I guess I gotta wait till monday to call them back. Anyway, thanks for the replys guys, hopefully I get my timing guides tommorow and I can get that clutch cover put back on and get that outta the way.

[Stickman400]

Well still no guides. But I went to test fit my piston in the cylinder and then see if the rings were gapped right and saw that one of them was snapped in half. Just my luck. So now Im gunna half to see if I can exchange them for new ones monday. Seems like Im never gunna get this thing done.

[dxcody]

Dude i know exactly what you are going through.

I bought my quad, uh... a month ago tomorrow and I took the motor apart to change the headgasket and then ended up having to, basically rebuild the top end, had to put GTT HD studs in, (switch cylinders because the helicoil) then snapped one of my rings in half, then bought a new timing chain, lol now i am waiting on my new rings to come in.

Sighhhh :( She will get done one day tho and be a beast!

Its all worth it in the end knowing that everything is correct tho! :D

[Stickman400]

Damn, seems like we've done the exact same thing to our quads. Even had the same troubles. But yea, it will deff. be worth it in the end.

[Stickman400]

I think Im just going to get the new rings and put it back together. Leave the studs out for now, I don't think I would need them right now anyway. I'll just put them in this winter when I tear it down.

[dxcody]

Yea you should be fine, its only like 2 months till winter anyways.

[Stickman400]

Well I got my guides finally. Got them on and got the clutch cover back on and all buttoned up. I should be getting my rings tommorow and then I should have it all back together tommorow night. Then I can break it in Thursday and make sure everything is good to go.
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/Stickman400/Quad%20Pics/IMAG0286.jpg

[dxcody]

this is starting to get weird man, i got my new guides and put my cover back on last night. Now my motor looks just like that and my rings are supposed to be at my house tomorrow, so we are in the exact same spot.

Lol i even have the black frame, razr 2 fronts, and a black oil pan underneith it lol ill take a pic from the same angle that you did so we can compare if you dont mind me posting a pic on your thread.


I AM DYING TO RIDE!!!!! :D

Hope your break in and everthing goes good!

[Stickman400]

Lol, that is creepy. Go ahead and post a pic, that would be really cool seeing 2 different people with almost the same pic of their quads.

[dxcody]

my frame and motor arent as nice as yours, my frame was spray painted black by the previous owner but they are still quite similar! lol

[CJM]

Word to the wise when installing the cylinder and piston:

Put the piston in the cylinder first, use copious amounts of 2 stroke to lube it up so it slides easy (2 stroke will burn off much faster and easier than 4 stroke oils will). Once you got that done get a friend and have them hold the cylinder over the bottomend and you line up the connecting rod and put the wristpin in. I lube the heck out of my wristpin with moly assy lube btw.

Oh also stuff rags into the hole in the trans, otherwise those circlips might find thier way down there.

[Stickman400]

I was just going to coat everything in Redline assembly lube. And then just dab on oil whever the service manual says to(seals/o-rings). And cody, that pic does look almost identical to mine. Move a couple things around and if the frame was cleaner it would look exactly alike, that is creepy.

[CJM]

Put assembly lube on the wristpin, on the cam journals, on the cam bearings, make sure you blue loctite the cam sprocket bolts in.

Lubing up the cylinder ensures the piston is well lubricated on start up and therefore wont cause any damage.

[dxcody]

I am seriously considering going through and printing off all the stickys, and helpful info on here and making a real manual.

The actual honda manual is great dont get me wrong, but it doesnt tell you stuff like you mentioned the other day CJM like what to do if your stud snaps off in your head, or to use 2 stroke oil because it will brun off faster and a little cleaner then a heavy 4 stroke oil will and it doesnt tell you anything about aftermarket parts and what to do with a hotcam, and high compression pistons and easier ways to do things that work the same as the honda manual says to do it.

idk it sounds like a good idea as i am typing this, because you cant take a computer everywhere you go.

[Stickman400]

They are deff. worth the money. They show you how to dissassemble, check, and reassemle every single thing on the wheeler. They give you torque specs for every bolt and nut and show you exactly where everything goes. I'm really only using it during assembly to make sure I get everything where it needs to go and for the torque specs and clearances for everything. It is kinda dumb though, because in all the descriptions for the tear downs and reassembles it tells you to buy new EVERYTHING. From the o-rings to the seals it says you MUST replace them all when putting it back together. And that might be true for certain things but you deff. don't need to do it on EVERYTHING.

[Stickman400]

Finally! Well, almost. I got it about 80% together then realized I don't have feeler gauges that go down to .13mm, so I gotta go to town tommorow and get some. Anyway it took me about 4 hours total, and about 30 minutes of that was getting the rings on and spaced out the right way, then another 20 minutes trying to put the piston in the cylinder by myself because no one else could help. Then the camshaft timing was off the first time I did it so I had to redo that, but all in all it wasn't too bad I guess.I only took 1 pic after I got it in the cylinder, so here that is.
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/Stickman400/Quad%20Pics/IMAG0288.jpg
I was going to take another before and after I got the cam in but I was in too much of a hurry to mess with cleaning my hands to take a picture. Anyway here she is without the airbox and plastics.
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/Stickman400/Quad%20Pics/IMAG0290.jpg
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/Stickman400/Quad%20Pics/IMAG0289.jpg
Tommorow I'm gonna break it in and I think I'm gunna do it like this.
1. Start it up and let it warm up for 1 minute while going from 1/4 throttle to 3/4 throttle to make sure it doesn't idle per the HC instructions while also checking for leaks.
2. Turn it off and check the oil to make sure it's still full.
3. Take it for a 30 minute ride making sure to open it up in 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear every now and then to break in the piston and rings, also making sure I don't put too much of a load on the engine.
4. Come back and change the oil and check for any leaks.
5. Done, ride it like normal.

Anybody think this would be the proper way to break in the piston and cam? Any suggestions or additions?

[CJM]

Let warm up fully for 15 mins, then go ride it like you stole it. You want to vary the rpms to make the rings seat in properly.

Good job doing it yourself, to get the piston in easy Id suggest a piston ring compressor similar to this http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0014WH9VQ/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B000HXNTGM&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0NKN09ZTXS8NT0PY0Y3Y

Lube the inside of that up, lube the cyl up and smack the piston in from the top. Works like a charm really.

[CJM]

btw, heres an excellent video showing how to install rings with no tools and not ever breaking a ring: http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=CVWzGh2VPM4

This guys series of videos goes over how to measure the bore, gap the rings, etc. Very helpful http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZiqnychIcU

[01boneless]

great job bro it will feal good when it fires up just make sure you dident miss little things like stagger the ring gaps grind the ring gaps adjust the valves locktight the 2 cam sproket bolts check the timming like 5 times befor you put the valve cover on and adjust the valves and your golden crisp :D

[Stickman400]

Lol, yea I'm sure everything is good to go. I checked the ring gaps and they were already perfect so I didn't need to file them, I'm adjusting valves tommorow according to the card I got with HC (.13mm IN, .15mm EX), I loctited and torqued the cam sprocket bolts down to 15ft.lbs, checked the timing twice and it was perfect, and I lubed EVERYTHING that moved or had some kind of abrasion against it with assembly lube. The ONLY thing that might be off is the ring gap, but they are still within 120 degrees of each other. The wiseco ring gap instructions were not right, so I kinda did half of them according to it and then half according to the service manual. And CJM, if I let it warm up 15 minutes will I have to do anything special to make sure I don't let the HC wear unevenly? Or do I just have to make sure it doesn't idel for the first minute?

[01boneless]

the gaps should be ok as long as they are not alined with each other imho

[dxcody]

thats a pretty cool trick CJM, good luck with the break in Stickman.

i am going to go do a test run of putting my rings in with the old rings just so i know i can do it without breaking/snapping them off... i found out the hard way how fragile they are lol

[CJM]

I never really followed the cam break in instructions and neither has anyone I has anyone else I know. With no ill effects either.

Revving up and down a fresh motor when it first starts up isnt exactly a good idea. An engine building shop wouldnt even do that, they all let them warm up first.

[Stickman400]

Well she fired right up after about 5 seconds, and that was just because it had no fuel in the carb. Its warming up as I type this, wish me luck, lol.

[Stickman400]

Ok, got done with my first ride. Went out for about 30 minutes after letting it warm up for about 15 first. I rode it kinda hard, ripped it through 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th every now and then, and then just rode it around on some trails and on the road in 2nd and 3rd just varying the throttle. Gunna let it cool down and ride it again tonight for another 30 mintues or so and then change the oil and check the vavles again. I didn't notice any leaks or any weird noises. It did tick, but not any worse than what it usually does.

[01boneless]

great job bro!!! sounds like you did every thing right :D did u notice alittle more power :D

[Stickman400]

I didnt feel anymore "power" so to speak, but it does pull harder and now I run outta gears too fast, it feels like I should be in 4th when Im already in 5th pegged out. Ill drop a tooth in the rear sometime and see how it feels. But it doesnt have any problem pulling wheelies and keeping them going, lol :devil:

[CJM]

Whats your jetting at?

[Stickman400]

Same as my sig.158, 40, 3rd notch from top, a/f at stock setting. Its seems fine so far, it cackles alot more on decel. though. Ill pull the plug tonight and give a report.

[CJM]

To lean, go to a 170 and start dropping down from there and do a 42 pilot, 2.5 turns out the air/fuel screw.

[Stickman400]

Well heres a picture of the plug. Looks about right but a tad lean.
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/Stickman400/Quad%20Pics/IMAG0294.jpg

[CJM]

Looks quite lean.

See this thread with pictures, my plug looks like 17.

[Stickman400]

There wasn't a link anywhere there CJ. Anyway just for the hek of it here is a pic of the plug before i rebuilt it. It's amazing how much it can throw your jetting off just by putting in a slightly larger piston.
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/Stickman400/Quad%20Pics/IMAG0295.jpg

[CJM]

That plugs better, not great but better.

Sorry heres the link btw: http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=463320

anyways. Dont run it like that for to long or you will overheat it and cook the topend sooner or later. Like I said, Id suggest a 170 main to start with and 42 pilot.

[Stickman400]

Alrighty, mine looks like a 22 or 23. I'll run to the local shop tommorow and see if they have 160-170 jets and a 42 pilot, and pick up a couple plugs.

[Stickman400]

Alright, I checked my valves earlier and the exhaust valves were ok but the intakes were a bit loose so I went to tighten them and ended up jamming the lock nut onto one of the adjusters, so I had to take that to the shop and have then impact driver it off and luckily they had another nut. So I got them back in check and put in a 170 main, 42 pilot and 2.5 out from seated on the a/f screw. And man did it make a difference, its still got loads of power down low, but if you start gettin on it in 2nd and 3rd it will straight rip. The top end is just as fast if not abit faster too. I'll pull the plug after it cools down abit and take a pic, but it wasn't cackling nearly as much now. And most of the ticking went away in the valves also. I put some Lucas 10-40 in it and I think it helped.

[Stickman400]

Alright, here it is. 170 main, 42 pilot, 2.5 out on a/f screw
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/Stickman400/Quad%20Pics/IMAG0297.jpg

[01boneless]

^^ imho tht still looks realy lean :confused: do another with that same plug pin it in 3rd and kill it then take a pic of the plug

[CJM]

Yes still looks lean.

Try a 175 just for the heck of it. Also you might not be running it long enough, run around for a good 15 mins on it after letting it warm up a bit.

I like plug chops as much as the next guy, but sometimes it just isnt enough time imho.

[Stickman400]

I'm goin riding with some friends tomorrow so I'll get a good ride on it then. If it still looks the same I'll swap in the 175.

[CJM]

Id be very careful of riding a long time if its that lean. IMHO bring the jets and tools with you, it only takes 5 mins to take everything apart and change it.

[Stickman400]

On second thought, I already got the wheeler in the truck. So Ill just take it to the shop in the morning and swap it out there. Then check the plug after we go out for the first ride. Ill get a 180 also, just in-case.

[Stickman400]

175, everything else is the same. That was with a good 2 hours of riding on it too. And man it ws a bi#ch getting that thing in there. I couldn't get the new jets threads started for nothing so I had to pull the side panels off and remove the tank, then take the carb off and flip it over. 5 minutes turned to 30 minutes pretty quick.
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/Stickman400/Quad%20Pics/IMAG0298.jpg

[dxcody]

^^^ thats exactly how a plug should look.

[01boneless]

still looks to lean but run it it should be ok imho

[dxcody]

If you buy a brand new 400x and ride it for about a week and pull the plug, thats exactly how it will look.

In the manual it shows a pic that looks just like that, the ground electrode is white-ish and the insulator tip and the bottom of the threads are black but not caked.

[01boneless]

yup your right becuase they are border line lean stock imo and ask anyone on here or check out posts it should be cardboard brown :chinese: but like i said run it a while get it broke in good and check it later i shouldent be lean with that big of a jet

[Stickman400]

Yea, Ill be keeping an eye on it for the next couple weeks. Ive got a 180 I can put in if it does seem too lean. I think Im gunna pick up a couple Denso Iridiums sometime to put in it too.

[Stickman400]

Got any input CJM? lol :D

[CJM]

That electrode should be darker, to me it still looks to lean. Perhaps its your camera?

Heres some very high res pics of what they should look like:
http://www.4secondsflat.com/plug_chart.html

Put the next jet size in there, run it for a bit and report back. Being rich isnt exactly a bad thing-it wont harm much. Being too lean, well that eventually can make you have a nice hole in your piston you can inspect the wristpin from.

I think your ok however. The basering is good as is the strap for the electrode.

What I do notice is signs of pre-detonation by the electrode. What grade of gas are you using?

[Stickman400]

91 pump, thats the highest around here for atleast 50 miles. Unless you want 100+ race fuel.

[CJM]

You cant get 93?

I still say you should up the jet by one size and just see. To me like I said before the rest of the plug looks ok but the electrode is very white.

[Stickman400]

Ive looked around at stations for 50 miles around me and none have over 91. And I only rode it with that 175 in there for about 2-3 hours on Saturday and it hasnt left the back of my truck since then. Ill put that 180 in sometime before I ride it again. Its starting to get windy and cold everyday, which sucks.

[CJM]

Thats really odd no 93 :confused:

Anyways Id say your gonna probably run a 178 in the end. Its very odd how rich you are, Im at about 200ft over sea level so my jetting is pretty dang spot on usually as a baseline for most. On my 416 I ran a 170 with no issues.

[crownandmonster]

Jetting can be all over the board. I live pretty close to him and at about 600ft above sea level. When I had my stock carb and 416, I ran a 160 main. It was perfect.

Heck on my 450 carb now I'm only running a 175.

[Stickman400]

Im at 450ft. above sea level. But I run lid on, and you don't do you CJM? Could that make a difference? Crown, have you seen anybody over there that has anything over 91? Theres noone over here around wayland, or keokuk, or fort maddy or quincy for that matter. Its ridiculous.

[CJM]

I have an outwears lid, imho its like running no lid.

[crownandmonster]

Originally posted by Stickman400
Im at 450ft. above sea level. But I run lid on, and you don't do you CJM? Could that make a difference? Crown, have you seen anybody over there that has anything over 91? Theres noone over here around wayland, or keokuk, or fort maddy or quincy for that matter. Its ridiculous.




I thought you could buy 93 at the Shell stations in IL, but I could be wrong and the closest one is in Quincy. 91 is about all you can find around here from the pump. You can get 112 sunoco at the local dirt tracks though. Last time I bought it I think i paid $8.00 a gallon.


I have a true 11:1 416 and it runs fine on 91.

[Stickman400]

I finally got around to gettiing a 180 in and testing it. Here is the 180 with a good 10 min. warmup and 30 min. ride.
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/Stickman400/Quad%20Pics/IMAG0325.jpg
And here is the same 175 that I had a pic of before, but this was after 4 or 5 hours of solid riding.
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/Stickman400/Quad%20Pics/IMAG0318.jpg
Now how does that work out? That 175 looks fouled but was looking crazy lean in the first pic. And the 180 still looks lean. Also I found out that the plug with the 175 was a DPR9Z, not the 8Z, does that make a difference?

[CJM]

Id say your not letting it run enough, IDK when I have mine I let warm up with choke for 2-3 mins than take off.

Id say 175 is a bit rich. Typically a 416 needs a 170. Im running a 426 now with open airbox, yadda yadda and I run a 172, 175 was ok but a bit rich.

dpr9z is a bit colder plug, 8 is a hotter plug..engine temps will be slightly hotter. 9 will foul plugs easier as well.

See here for more plug info (http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85164)

[Stickman400]

Well I guess Ill buy another 8Z plug and do one of those 3rd-4th gear WOT runs and kill it, then pull the plug. Is that the way to do it without a full ride?

[CJM]

Yes thats the way to do a plug run. Me I like to run a long ride to be sure.

[Stickman400]

1st-5th gear WOT run, then killed and pulled the plug. It still looks lean. I would put a good 1 hour ride on it, but I've got no trails around me and noone to ride with, so it would just be riding around gravel roads for an hour. This is starting to get annoying, I've prolly spent $50 in plugs alone.
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/Stickman400/Quad%20Pics/IMAG0327.jpg

[CJM]

Go up 1 jet size and imho call it quits if it looks good.

Wonder why all your plugs seem to lean? I dont get it...

I mean heres mine and Im slightly richer than you are based on the way the plug looks (this is a 172 with current 426 specs). Pictures slightly deceiveing, its more of a tan/brown not dark brown. FWIW it also didnt look like that till I took it out all day last sunday, it was more tan.

http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4186924&highlight=plug#post4186924

[Stickman400]

190 main. This is ridiculous, somethings gotta be wrong or I am doin the plug run wrong. I'm letting it warm up for only 1 minute or so and then riding about a 1/4 mile from my shop, turning around and ripping it 1st through 5th WOT and then pulling in the clutch and killing it. Am I missing something here? I think I'm gunna try and get a good 45 minute to 1 hour ride on that same plug and see what it looks like, but it's getting to be 35 degrees and windy outside everyday and riding by myself in that weather isn't very fun.
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/Stickman400/Quad%20Pics/IMAG0331.jpg

[dxcody]

all my plugs always look like that, no matter what the jetting, it seems for me. So i just said screw it and left it looking like your last plug, thats how they come from the factory and i know its a little lean but i havent had any heat issues yet.

Not saying for you to ride it like that, im just saying im not near as picky about jetting as most. lol I may be retarded but if it doesnt run hot, and it doesnt pop and back fire and stuff, then its ok in my book.

[crownandmonster]

Brand new plugs are the worst to use for plug chops if you ask me. My father builds motors for dirt track cars and they can go out and run the 6 warm up laps turning 7,000+ RPM and the plugs just wont take the color. It usually takes 15 or so laps to get a plug to read correctly. If it were me I would put the plug back in and get 4 or 5 hours of ride time on it and then go back and do a plug chop. 4th gear is really enough for a chop but if your like 5th thats fine. Make sure you hit the kill switch, let off the gas, and pull the clutch all at the same time. If you plug still looks like that and with that big of a main, I would start checking for air leaks. I only run a 175 in my 450R carb.

[CJM]

10 min warm up!!!! Not 1!

Put a 172 main in there, ride around and Im sure it will be fine.

[Thumpin440ex]

Plug chops work well, but so does tuning it by the feel and hear.. If your not getting hiccups or popping through out the decel and accel, jetting shoud be good.. I have also noticed that it does take some time for the plug to actually gain color.. The 190 main should be plenty of main..


John

[Stickman400]

I'll just put that same plug in and do a 10 min. warmup and then try to get a 1 hour ride on it then pull it. Hopefully its a color other than white.

[mineralgrey01gt]

Originally posted by Stickman400
Yea, Ill prolly be getting the 416 11:1 with a Stage 2 cam, p&p, CRF450 timing chain, then the 450R carb sometime after all that. Ill also have my vavle train checked while Im getting all that done to make sure everything is good up top also.

I had that same exact set up minus the p&p and it was a fun bike, decent tq for what it was and ran good

[mineralgrey01gt]

Originally posted by crownandmonster
Brand new plugs are the worst to use for plug chops if you ask me. My father builds motors for dirt track cars and they can go out and run the 6 warm up laps turning 7,000+ RPM and the plugs just wont take the color. It usually takes 15 or so laps to get a plug to read correctly. If it were me I would put the plug back in and get 4 or 5 hours of ride time on it and then go back and do a plug chop. 4th gear is really enough for a chop but if your like 5th thats fine. Make sure you hit the kill switch, let off the gas, and pull the clutch all at the same time. If you plug still looks like that and with that big of a main, I would start checking for air leaks. I only run a 175 in my 450R carb.

I had to run a 205 or bigger in my 450r carb. There are so many factors that play into that.

[crownandmonster]

Originally posted by mineralgrey01gt
I had to run a 205 or bigger in my 450r carb. There are so many factors that play into that.



Not trying to start an argument on his thread, or say that your jetting is incorrect, but If you ask me there is no reason a 416 should have to run more than a 185-190 at the upper end of the spectrum, with a stock or 450 carb. If you had a 205 my guess would be you had an air leak somewhere. This is just my opinion and I could very well be wrong, but a 205 main is gi-F**king-Normous. The only way I could understand using that big of jet would be on some monster 460/502 that had hellacious port work and flow benched rediculous numbers.


Any way dude I would slap a 180 back in and then take it out for a couple rides and get some time one the plug and then let it get to normal operating temperature and do a plug chop.

[mineralgrey01gt]

Originally posted by crownandmonster
Not trying to start an argument on his thread, or say that your jetting is incorrect, but If you ask me there is no reason a 416 should have to run more than a 185-190 at the upper end of the spectrum, with a stock or 450 carb. If you had a 205 my guess would be you had an air leak somewhere. This is just my opinion and I could very well be wrong, but a 205 main is gi-F**king-Normous. The only way I could understand using that big of jet would be on some monster 460/502 that had hellacious port work and flow benched rediculous numbers. Any way dude I would slap a 180 back in and then take it out for a couple rides and get some time one the plug and then let it get to normal operating temperature and do a plug chop.

I plugged chopped it quick and rode it for about an hour with my set up and it came out great. Im not the only one that had to run that high of a main. I met a few people down here that I rode with that had to run that high of one also. We did leak down test, checked for leaks when we put it back together, NOT ONE was found. Like I said, im most definitely not the only one that had to run that high of one. Come down here with your bike and i guarantee you will be rejetting asap