2 strokes in the future?

[JoePA]

I've been surfing the net looking for more info regarding the future of two stroke anything. The majority of what I found is companies trying to recover some terrible sales over the past few years...dirt bike as well as ATV.

One article was from 2009 but it was really interesting that the company was testing a 2 stroke in a sport bike and the amount if different maps that could be loasded into the computer with the flip of a switch was just amazing. Basicly any kind of power delivery you wanted by the turning of a knob!

The article went CC for CC on a 4 stroke to 2 stroke and of course he 2 stroke made more power and if I read it correctly was basically detuned. It had better fuel economy, same emissions and made more power than the 4 stroke 450!

I found another artice where Hausaberg has built a 2 stroke Dirt bike for 2012. This may be old news but i has electric start, EFI, 6 speed and fuel mapping with a the turn of a knob! Here is a pic:

http://twostrokemotocross.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Husasidefull.jpg


maybe we will see something on the ATV side if this kind of thing keeps up??!!

[dlunn]

The only issue with that bike is that I don't believe you can buy it in North America. It seems there is still lots of interest in 2 stroke bikes in Europe but in North America everyone has been brainwashed into buying 4 strokes. I would love to see some of their bikes come across the pond. Imagine the Maico 500 or 700 in a quad frame setup for the dunes, or the KTM 300 in a quad setup for XC/MX. If only someone would design a counterbalanced engine I would definitely buy one.

The motor on the Husaberg is KTM's 300 which I think would make an awesome motor for an atv. I would love to have the e-start and its got the 6 speed tranny.

[JoePA]

I went to their website and said for sale in North America!! I'll double check but that was one of the things I noticed.

[chronicsmoke]

Originally posted by dlunn
, or the KTM 300 in a quad setup for XC/MX. If only someone would design a counterbalanced engine I would definitely buy one.

The motor on the Husaberg is KTM's 300 which I think would make an awesome motor for an atv. I would love to have the e-start and its got the 6 speed tranny.

man, I've been thinking about the 300 KTM motor for a long time now.. That would be my ideal MX Hybrid :eek:

[deathman53]

you can sell 2 strokes here in the states, but they can't have lights and spark arrestor. They have to be a closed course models. This is why 2 stroke atv's are gone, if ktm make a 250 or 300 2 stroke atv, it would have to be closed course.

[troybilt]

Originally posted by deathman53
you can sell 2 strokes here in the states, but they can't have lights and spark arrestor. They have to be a closed course models. This is why 2 stroke atv's are gone, if ktm make a 250 or 300 2 stroke atv, it would have to be closed course.

Where is that written? I thought it just specifically dealt with future emissions regulations not specifically the 2 stroke power cycles? I don't think the EPA cares whether it is a 2, 4 or 6 cycle engine per se.

[deathman53]

I found that info on a ktm website about why the 08's didn't come w/ lights and sparky.

[troybilt]

Yea that's interesting that they would single out 2 strokes...

[etccb]

It's the sierra club - tree hugger - epa- politics BS.
If anyone on here donated to the sierra club.......THANKS ALOT!

[slamdak8782]

I guess its PBR from here on out

[JoePA]

I don't think it was so much the EPA hating two stroke but more of people drinking alot of the cool aid!

The 4 stroke bandwagon just exploded and it took off! Why....cuz the masses can be persuaded by media and false advertising.

If I find the artice I'll post a link but the more I read up on this 4 stroke crap the more I feel like we as riders/racers were cheated out of a much better sport/race quad than what we have now!

[Ruf Racing]

Originally posted by JoePA
....cuz the masses can be persuaded by media and false advertising.


You under estimate, the intelligences of the masses. The 4 stroke quads and dirtbikes that are made today, are by far the best, that's every been manufactured. The proof is in the ride. I own both engine types, equally loved. I do agree, I wish we had more options to purchase new 2 strokes. The small public demand for these, won't justify a manufacturer's resources. Plain and simple.:(

[etccb]

The EPA for sure. I live in cali and it all stated right here. This place is a mess and diesel trucks are now the target. With 2 strokes being closed course only the sales get hit so hard that large number production lines just don't work. You can't get a green sticker for a 2stroke here so the sales are limited. Smaller companies or companies that don't need the us joe blow sales are the only ones that can or will try to do it. Even the YZ250 has used the old tooling like the banshee and blaster did without dumping more money in it to survive off of the limited closed course restricted sales. Non racer joe blow will buy something that they can ride when and where they want and his dollers are required as well.
lol I used joe blow twise and it has nothing to do with joepa.
My spelling is awsome today.

[honda400ex2003]

interesting topic here and some interesting comments on the topic also.

i feel that the 2 stroke scene is just too small, the 4 strokes have great torque and accelerate quickly making them "feel' faster by comparison to a top end 2 stroke.

the epa also has a say, not how many strokes but how the emissions are put out. look at brp for example with sled engines. they can still make them and import them no problem as long as they meet the regulations for emissions.

the companies dont want to put the money into making them more efficient after having 4 strokes that can be changed easily to meet the current regulations.

having the big racers on tv riding 4 strokes doesnt help, people want to think they are like their idles on tv so it is only natural that people want to buy 4 strokes to be like the racers.

great topic guys,
steve

[JoePA]

Originally posted by Ruf Racing
You under estimate, the intelligences of the masses. The 4 stroke quads and dirtbikes that are made today, are by far the best, that's every been manufactured. The proof is in the ride. I own both engine types, equally loved. I do agree, I wish we had more options to purchase new 2 strokes. The small public demand for these, won't justify a manufacturer's resources. Plain and simple.:(

My question is what makes that 4 stroke so great? I would have to believe if you/we all rode a quad that had the amount of R&D money stuck into the 2 stroke engine that the 4 pokes had it would put a whooping on an 4 stroke out there hand down.

There is an engine out there that does everything the 4 stroke does, weighs less and of course cheaper to maintain. I believe if Can Am took their Etec technology and put that into a 300+ cc engine you would get one of the best sport quads ever built.

[RyanWsly]

I agree there should be options, but understand the whole game. The thing that gets me is as one stated you underestimate the intelligence of the masses. Well that I disagree with, people riding sport atv today have no idea that the chassis they love so much and think is cutting edge got it's start in the 80's. People say the YFZ is the new, king, however its put. Fact of the matter is that setup is basically a Laeger CR500 linked 250R chassis hybrid that Yamaha somehow managed to make not turn near as well. 2 stroke vs 4 stroke, everything about the 4 stroke makes them more money and it takes less skill to ride the 4 stroke so it's more appealing to the masses. A liquid cooled 4 stroke engine is a very good performer, but when you take it's service life into consideration is it really a huge leap? I can take a 1988 chassis and engine and do basically the same work in a given day as I can with my 2005 with lower repair bills at the end of the day. I own both, both have their bright spots, but when someone tries to tell me how much better it is, well that's just something I personally have trouble believing. One last thing if the newer 4 strokes are so much better maybe you should check the results from Erzberg and see what the top 10 finishers were. I own both and like both, just don't be one of the sheepole. Educate yourselves and make your own conclusions not what the people selling them tell you.

[rk88r]

Can any manufacturer sell a new two stroke in Cali? Isn't that about 40% of the market?

[Motofool250r]

Originally posted by rk88r
Can any manufacturer sell a new two stroke in Cali? Isn't that about 40% of the market?

california is 40% of the atv market? hrmm im gonna say no

2 strokes are harder to ride fast, it actually takes thought and skill, also they are much cheaper and long lasting then the 4 strokes. look how much money they are making in replacement parts costs on the bikes, there is a reason people ride em for 2 years and dump em before the topend rebuild as you could buy another bike for the same price as a simple rebuild.

but that same rebuild ona 250r is what max 400$ for new piston rings, gaskets etc, and thats even for a big bore bike.

[chronicsmoke]

Originally posted by Motofool250r
there is a reason people ride em for 2 years and dump em before the topend rebuild as you could buy another bike for the same price as a simple rebuild.

but that same rebuild ona 250r is what max 400$ for new piston rings, gaskets etc, and thats even for a big bore bike.


If you do your regular *PREVENTATIVE* maintenance, a rebuild on a 450 wont be much more than a 250r/other 2-stroke rebuild.

If you drive it w/o changing the oil, cleaning the air filter, or specing your valves then you are asking for, and probably deserve a $1700 rebuild.

I rebuilt my 450r for under $400 this spring (stock piston was still good), and that included a mild P&P.

I don't wait for the motor to go KA-BOOM though. I clean my air filter every 3 rides or less, oil/ filter every 3-4 rides (always checking the oil filter for flakes), valves once/twice a year, piston every year.

Most of the 2-stroke guys on here are anal with their 250r's, and I love seeing trick bikes that are taken care of. They wouldnt see much more maintenance with a 450r.
But the 2 stroke guys that just say "F**K it lets ride anyway even though my oil is old, filter is clogged, and my jetting isnt 100%", are just looking for a 1700 rebuild if they were on a 4 stroke.

I have both, and love both, so I'm not biased either.

mho

[laeger400]

I myself have had a stock 250r a full blown laeger 265 and a 450 both atv and hybrid. I do all my own work both engine and chassis for the most part now and when you are anal about p/m you will be in the 450 often making sure your valves are set right and stuff like that. As for riding the things you can do with the new 450s is by far eaier than the 250. The bottom end torque is the most noticable for me where you are reving the hell out of the 2 stroke and clutching you can just get on the throttle and the 450 will pull hard. I really like both and I am a custom chassis kinda guy and a hobbiest. I think that you can go back and forth all day with this. If you stay on top of a 450 you can freshin them up for reasonable prices, but if you make one little mistake you will be dropping $1500 or so. As the old saying goes to each is own.
I can say I will be riding red for a long time wether it be an old r or new crf!

[slamdak8782]

If you got a ESR 310 with 13 39 gearing bottom end is not a problem and you'll be thinking wow I should have done this a long time ago.:devil:That being said I threw my leg over a 400ex this weekend and I forgot how much I like that nice thumper torque. Not to mention if your trail riding, trx250r's can get annoying to listen to after awhile. Kinda miss my 400:( might be searching around for one in the near future. Zero wheel spin and gobs of torque for climbing hills.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

I must be in the wrong forum section, aint this the TRX250R two stroke forum. How did it turn into the 4 stroke.
Neil

[RyanWsly]

Agee Neil hahaha, I also agree with the 310PV comment. I disagree with the $400 rebuilds, that's pretty conservative numbers. Most 450Rs I know either have trans. failures or crank failures and they are well maintained. Mine was for sure, flakes started in the oil filter directly followed by my disappointment.

[chronicsmoke]

Originally posted by RyanWsly
Agee Neil hahaha, I also agree with the 310PV comment. I disagree with the $400 rebuilds, that's pretty conservative numbers. Most 450Rs I know either have trans. failures or crank failures and they are well maintained. Mine was for sure, flakes started in the oil filter directly followed by my disappointment.

SOME 450rs have those issues. I would like to see the % of first generation machines that have had crank failure. I dont think it's as high as we all think.

We, on the forums, hear about it alot more than a typical dealership would because people come here for help, not to praise how good & reliable their machine is.

I have under $400 for my 450r's rebuild this spring. so far, ~25 hours on it, and I've changed the oil 4-5 times (new filter every time) and cleaned my air filter 6-7 times (its tres dusty this summer). So far no flakes. That COULD change this fall, or even tonight.

If it does go down, yah you're in for a biggie, but if you f**k up a 2-stroke crank, youre no farther ahead or behind. (unless the 4-T blew the head with the crank, which I would assume would come back to poor maintenance.

My 450 gets;

New top end every season (just like my 250r)
Make sure the filter is clean (just like my 250r)
Change the oil regularly (just like my 250r)
Make sure it's jetted right (just like my 250r)
Adjust the valves 1-2 times a year. (NOT like my 250r)

Stay on top of it and you wont have one catostrophic failure after another. And if you do, who the heIl is building your engines!?!

^^ That being said, I'm off this afternoon to take out the '86, and leave the 450r at home. :)

I'm not on either side, the 450r is easier to drive, but the 250r makes me smile wider :D

[RyanWsly]

when you call an engine builder and talk to him and he knows exactly why you have flakes that's alarming. Then he asks what type of material and says steel, oh you're lucky it's not walking into the cases, most first gen engines will have a crank fail sooner or later. the 2nd gen ones have very weak transmissions in comparison to the 1st gen, I know of 3 off the top of my head. I am not picking on any certain one gen 1 or gen 2 hondas or other brands, like I said I own a 05, but dollar for dollar my 250R is the cheaper one to repair and has better reliability. If you want to get into expensive then look no further then a 250f engine, they are just time bombs. it's an expensive hobbie, sport either way off road machines just eat parts. The point I was trying to get across was I don't believe one is better then the other, it's a rider preference in my eyes, but the 4 stroke engine is more expense in the the long run as a general rule. Like I previously stated I wish you could buy either even if it was special order.

[chronicsmoke]

Originally posted by RyanWsly
The point I was trying to get across was I don't believe one is better then the other, it's a rider preference in my eyes, but the 4 stroke engine is more expense in the the long run as a general rule.

I agree, but if you never run into a crank failure, the cost of a 4T is still more $$, but not as much as people are led to believe. Add the crank failure, and you're pockets will feel it..

I'm curious because I've never had to dip into a bottom end yet; Is it more $$ to rebuild a bottom end on a 250r or 450r?


I'd love to see some small manufacturer assemble a race ready 2T Quad with D.I. and sell them in North America. You have to give it to GasGas for trying it.

Did Highland ever recover from that plane accident? I heard the company was trying to proceed with production, but I havent heard anything in a long time.. We should get them on the horn, and tell them to make 1/2 4-T and 1/2 2-T :D

[400exrip]

If you take care of a race motor it can last a long time just ask Neil, I can assure you he has not rebuilt his motor in a LONG time on his 250r, but he stays on top of it and takes care of it is why it lasts so long. Cause his 250r always screams at the track and NEVER runs bad.

Same thing with a 450r if you take care of it and stay on top of it it will last a long time before being rebuilt, You can ask Neil about that too.

I have took note of how Neil takes care of his bikes, and I have been doing the same thing this year and not had a problem out of my bike neither.

[Motofool250r]

how about 300+ gallons of race fuel through a Puma saleenstar had more then this on his puma motor

built by hybrid engineering

[RyanWsly]

somewhere around $1000 knowing what they know about mine and never cracking it open, multiple quotes from different businesses. There is a place that has a lot of info on the TRX450R.--- there are 14 pages of issues with crankshafts. compare that to the $60 piston kit I found on here and put in my TRX250R last time, there is a little difference. crankshaft cost I don't believe there is much difference, but add in all the possibilities in the valve train and that's when it gets serious. I bought a low hour rebuilt for it instead of fixing mine. to give you an idea of what had to be done to it, new case halves, new 2nd gear, new piston, new cam, new cam chain and so on. I knew the history of that engine so I happened into somewhat of a break, but mine could be just as bad inside as that one was even though it's still a running engine. Like I said $1000 was the starting point for mine. 04-05's are known for having the crank walking back and forth, my ATC 250R is still on the original crank with unknown hours, but my footpegs have the edges worn smooth so I'm guessing fairly high. I am the second owner of both, and both were purchased from people I know well so the history isn't any question, to be truthful the ATC had a much rougher life. I guess my biggest complaint is the durability of the newer 4 stroke engines, I still remember 200X's and 350X's, XR600's and such that were almost impossible to hurt. Yes the newer ones perform better for the most part, but for what I do the smaller price tag is worth a little more work on the controls. essentially that's what it comes down to, if you're lazy on a 2 stroke it tells on you way more then on a thumper. Ride them both full out, knowing how to ride both and the end result is basically the same.

[wilkin250r]

We all did our part in the whole mess. We all let it happen.

Even now when we're b!tching about it, I haven't heard a single complaint about 4-strokes getting double the displacement advantage to race with, and that's where it all starts, at the racetrack.

Of COURSE a 450cc engine has nice low-end torque and a smooth power delivery, and it's naturally easier to race with, more forgiving, and will enable a rider to be faster. Duh, it's twice the displacement, of COURSE it will have advantages.

And once we let that happen (because we just sat back and accepted it) we sealed our fate.

[RyanWsly]

I honestly don't have a complaint with the displacement, in the woods my stock bore cylinder plus bolt ons will pull with a built 450. Mine is built exactly, power range wise where I want it. I can make it pull just like I can my 450R, it's just not quite as broad of a power band. The friend I go riding with all the time kept saying you are faster on the 450, was dead set on it till I got my 250R going again. The first time we went and I was on it again I asked him what he thought and he said there is no real difference. The engine is such a small factor for me in the overall picture, the suspension was where my 250R was suffering horribly. I think some people mistake the engine wearing them out when it is actually the chassis causing the bulk of the problem.

[slamdak8782]

lol sorry to make it four stroke section. I have had both. I had both four and two strokes I like em both. I just wish manufacturers would make both. Here is what Id like to see... Lets say a 450 two stroke quad from all the manufacturers. It would be like when the 400ex's came out and dirt wheels could be interesting again.

[chronicsmoke]

Looked at the lap times from last night on my GoPro, and it looks like the fastest lap time I have on camera is my 3rd lap in over 6 months on the 250r..

I thought it just felt I was going faster, but it was about 4 seconds quicker.. Took me a while to get used to the 250r flow though..

If you can keep the 250 in the PB, you are flying!

[RyanWsly]

I agree it is harder to adjust back to riding my 250R when I have been off of it for a while. gets back to the whole more forgiving thing I believe, seems like I have a tendency to overshoot corners and small things like that because I'm lacking engine braking, and I get under the pipe sometimes where I can't pull out of it even with loads of clutch. I can understand why someone who never rode one and just hopped on one would think they were not a real good choice for certain applications at first.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Wilkins,
Have you took a good notice at the races who is winning, like who the riders are & how they youst to ride before they got a 4 stroke bike.
Course, that has been a while since the 4 strokes came back on the scene, so you would need to remember who you seen & if they switched from a 2 stroke.

Shucks, back when I was racing (dont laugh, yes I youst to race) & when racing a 4 stroke I could run it into a corning so hard the engine would start to rev higher from it spinning sideways. Burp the gas one time & back on it wide open, so the 4 poker is a bunch easier to ride, but on the 2 stroke, now that was a whole different story. You got to be on your game if you intend to win on a 2 stroke.

Put it all together & sum it up, its all about winning races 98% of the time & if any of us think a rider winning on a 4 stroke is going to give that up just to go back on a 2 stroke they couldnt win on before, we better be thinking different cause it aint gona happen.

I've been in some type of racing sence 10 & I aint got 60 year old & not seen or noticed nothing. Them 4 strokes have put riders winning races that was mid pack finishers before because of a bigger engine & easier to ride.

Shoot, I might go back racing again & you know what I'll probably ride, a 4 poker, cause I dont want that 2 stroke making me look bad :eek2:
Neil

[Ruf Racing]

Originally posted by C-LEIGH RACING
Shoot, I might go back racing again & you know what I'll probably ride, a 4 poker, cause I dont want that 2 stroke making me look bad :eek2:
Neil

:huh Is this you Neil? I guess that Hurricane coming, has your mind on the fritz!
Never thought I would hear you say that. :D

[SilverLake250R]

Yeah Neil, would losing make you look worse than riding a 4 stroke?

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Ya'll please forgive me, I got a jaw tooth killing me & I'm all jacked up on ibprofin trying to ease it up some, so dont know if I'm talking out of my head or not.

You think this is weard, you should have seen me driving home Monday from Indy to the house & that jaw hurting. Consentrating on driving was not what was on my mind.
:o Neil

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by C-LEIGH RACING
Shoot, I might go back racing again & you know what I'll probably ride, a 4 poker, cause I dont want that 2 stroke making me look bad :eek2:
Neil

But let's imagine an even playing field for a moment. What if you were limited to 250cc either way, would you still race a 4-stroke?

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Originally posted by wilkin250r
But let's imagine an even playing field for a moment. What if you were limited to 250cc either way, would you still race a 4-stroke?

Probably with my abilitys, old as I am, that would be a toss up, because the 250 4 would be so high strung rpm wise wouldnt be much difference in how the engines performed.
Now if handling was the same on both machines, both of them would probably make me look bad.
Shucks, getting pulled in a red wagon flyer would probably make me look bad :p .
Neil

[chronicsmoke]

^haha

I actually don't care what the # of CC's is, If my 450 was a 125, but could still haul the mail like it does, I'd be proud to say I ride a 125.

True that given equal displacement, the 2 stroke would prevail. But trying to get them on a level playing field is the tricky part.

If you're racing 'Open' Class, then Raptor 700's, 400CC Banshee's, LT500's, BB 250r's are all legal, regardless of the engine size.

I dont think it's fair to allow a >450cc KTMs or BB 450's to race the 450 class. A 295CC 250r would be pretty competative in the 450 Production Class, maybe even considered 'fair'. Give the 2-T quads the option of going 310+ and it wouldnt be fair anymore to run with stock 450's.

I think the theoretical HP/TQ #s should influence what quads are allowed to race what class. (maybe an average of dyno #'s produced by Pro-Level quads?)

With all of the factory backing vanishing from the 'scene', I hope to see the rejuvenation of classic 2-Ts and Custom Hybrids at the track. It took skill to build those machines! (and alot of coin)

The hybrid section is by far one of my favorites on here!

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by chronicsmoke
I think the theoretical HP/TQ #s should influence what quads are allowed to race what class. (maybe an average of dyno #'s produced by Pro-Level quads?)

But I still don't even think that would be "fair". If you compared a 60hp 2-stroke to a 60hp 4-stroke, the 4-stroke wins each and every time, because it has a better power delivery. In fact, that's how the system STARTED, the 440 4-strokes were about the same power level as the 265 2-strokes.

And unfortunately for us, the 4-strokes evolved to even higher power, while the 2-strokes just sunk deeper into the grave.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

chronic,
You must not been reading much, I've got that cc change in AMA/ATVA Extreme Dirt Track.
Pro-Am class is 306cc 2 stroke 450cc 4 stroke.
Any class that does not say "production" only, is 2 stroke & hybred legal.
Any class listed as "Unlimited" is open engine or hybred long as it is a dirt bike or atv engine.
No blown 350 small blocks though, PLEASE.
Neil

[chronicsmoke]

That's TT Racing, isn't it Neil? I'm totally out on the loop on that stuff, but I do recall you saying that they bumped the limit from 265(??) to 306, as stated. That's a leap in the right direction if you ask me. I like that 2Strokes don't need to be on an equal playing field for it to be 'Fair'.

I know from my own experience, my 250 is as fast on an MX track as my 450. Both have about the same amount of work, both are on stock cylinders. (250 is only .50 over stock.)
My 450 has to have more HP.. but I can still catch my own 450 lap times, or hang with a KTM 505 that my buddy has. That being said, I'm not a pro by any means, so maybe somebody with more experience could ride my 450 faster than my 250, but for me they are about equal.

It's that word "Production" that thay came out with 7-8 years ago that's giving everyone greif. I think that rule is total BS paid for by the manufacturers in Asia.

There is new 2 Stroke technology out there, it hasn't completely died.. Somebody just has to apply it to today's race bikes.. (Something like DGS's Can-Am 250r in the Hybrid section, that baby is SWEET!)

[etccb]

By that logic nearly all of the current pros already run expansion chambers on thier 4 strokes.

[wilkin250r]

As far as I know, there's no rule that says 4-strokes can't have an expansion chamber.

And I don't really buy into the comparison between an expansion chamber and a supercharger. An expansion chamber is still a naturally aspirated engine.

[RyanWsly]

A 300 or 310 kit as they call it is about the same as a modern 450. A ESR ported 310pv with a 38 mm will pull with a built 450 in the open, I saw my friend do it repeatedly on a gp track and the power delivery is almost identical. A guy I know that races MX on a bike still runs a new YZ and his best take on the whole thing was the tracks have been tailored to the 4 stroke torque, he has been racing since the early 80's so I trust his judgement and know he has seen the changes over the years. he said a 300cc would be about perfect in his opinion. Also I agree with getting rid of production rules, factories don't like that idea because of aftermarket chassis is my belief, how many guys would be running a stock chassis if they had the backing of the companies from back in the 90's and what does that do to their sales? A lot more figures into that whole "production rule" then just the power plant. I honestly believe if it was gone you would see some hybrids and some 250R based engines back running in the front rows of the national races. Competition is good in my opinion, seems like the factories have gotten fat and lazy off this last ride, but it seems to be coming to an end like back in the early 90's.

[etccb]

You can run an expansion chamber on a 4 stroke if you like. All of the pros do. What about the stepped header? Modified header with expansion chamber? The megaphone muffler?=cheaters???

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by Black Sheep
They both do the same thing...Look up any information on two stroke expansion chambers.

This one took me 2 minutes to find

While I always appreciate members doing a little research, I'm still not buying into it.

Try another 2 minutes researching camshaft profiles. If you can convince me that overlapping your intake and exhaust lobes, a standard practice since camshafts were invented, is somehow different than a 2-stroke expansion chamber, I'll reconsider my position on the matter.

[laeger400]

ok coming from a person that has built a lot of exhaust in my life time a tuned pipe is a tuned pipe plain and simple. ive worked for vance and hines in r&d and also built turbo bikes for velocity racing not to mention at howerton pruducts where we built 75% of irl exhaust and all of toyotas nascar exhaust. when you build a tuned header for a certain engine it should be safe to say that both engines would be fair. length of pipe how big the bends are how tight they are how far between step up in size how long the can is on the muffler. im not buying that arguement lol


here is a inco header i built a few years ago for a rmz450 its a 3 stage header
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h426/jdub160/LSR%20CRF%20450%20PROJECT/bobospictures.jpg

here is a mid section on the rear header for a sv 650
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h426/jdub160/f1950bef.jpg
ok enough show and tell back to your scheduled program!

[troybilt]

I see what you're saying and it is interesting.... But I'm not finding a valid connection where an expansion chamber gives a 2 stoke an unfair advantage. Its dubious at best... There have been advances in the 4 stroke engine since Otto invented it.

Someone needs to tell Trick Racing that they wasted a bunch of money on turbo's for their banshees, the expansion chamber is all you need...

http://www.trickracing1.com/Turbo_Charged_Banshees.html

How did we go from discussing 2 strokes in the future of the atv industry to the "chevy-ford" debate with 2 strokes vs. 4 strokes?

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Troy,
Reason for the debate, 4 stroke vs 2 stroke, 4 poke owners have to belittle the 2 strokes & their owners to somehow justify their ill feelings they are having from their higher cost they have had to endure from buying, maintaining, replacing parts after those high performance time bombs dropped a valve or spit a connecting rod out of the cases.

Some say they wont do that, but you build a 4 poke to realy produce surprizing hp, I mean like those engines should & its nothing more than a bomb waiting to go off.
Neil

[chronicsmoke]

I'm not trying to belittle 4-T or 2-Ts. I like to have an open mind when it comes to racing quads in general. I like 4 stroke thumpers, I like 2 stroke screamers.

What would get more hours of life, a 450 'production' 450r, or a ~300cc 250r that would qualify as a 'Pro' machine? I'm only asking because I'm curious, and I dont know!

I'm stuck in the thinking that the only more maintenance there is in a 4-T is the top end (and I know it's a biggie). But unless you suck a valve, replace the valves/seals/cam chain when needed (indeed an added expense over 2-Ts) and you shouldn't have that many more issues.

Now if you bust the rod, put a hole in the cases, and smash the topend all in one go, I suggest you buy a complete motor, because NOW we are talking SERIOUS coin.

but Enough about 4-T's.

Back to dreaming of an aftermarket framed/50" wide 300CC PV factory rocket, sigh.. :(

something like this would be Ideal :D http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=472674

[laeger400]

Yes I have built a few pipes and think that what few things I have showed on here shows what I can do. All the inch stuff I ever built started out as flat sheets of .028,.035.,or .049 I sheared rolled and tacked coined seamed and bent expanded formed. I've built 3 into 1 4 into 1 5 into 1 and 6 into 1 merge collectors so quit copy and pasting. Oh yeah eachaust has came along way since 83 ( when I was 6 FYI). I can say I am one of a small group of people that can actually build my whole quad from the ground up. Sorry if I pissed any of u off but this dude a funny cat.

Jerry

[laeger400]

nissan skyline 6 into 1 turbo manifold from scratch buddy

http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h426/jdub160/exhaust003.jpg

a expansion chamber from scratch buddy for a buddies old 2 stroke dirt bike

http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h426/jdub160/exhaust001-1.jpg

and a 4 into merge collector for a suk prostock bike that i use for a fuel gun holder for my rc car

http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h426/jdub160/exhaust002-1.jpg

well i bet this still isnt good enough but oh well

Jerry

[laeger400]

Ok guys with this said a lot of stuff that I have built I am not aloud to show pics take pics or anything like that. I am done going back and forth over this. It is a deadend and I am only interested in moving forward. Troy is 100% right chevy-ford. Both are very fun bikes to ride and there isnt a day that goes by that I say man I wish I still had my laeger 265 and one day I will get to put another one together.

Jerry

[troybilt]

Say what you want, but I still disagree that the expansion chamber is the same thing as a super charger, that's asinine.. Of course 4 stroke-ers have a need to justify the amount of money they spend on there motors...

Fact 1: yes they both add fuel/air mixture into the cylinder but an expansion chamber only works for a narrow band of rpm a.k.a. the POWERBAND on a 2 stroke... A super charger or turbo charger force more fuel mixture into the cylinder just like an expansion chamber (as you eloquently stated) however it is utilized over the entire RPM range. that's a big difference...

Fact 2: You could add valves to a 2 stroke then an expansion chamber would then not be needed, cause non-burnt excess fuel and air would not escape as it does now.

Motocross Action said it best, 4 stokes are like the front wheel drive versions of race cars.

But I can rag on 4 strokes all I want but the reality is that is the way the industry has headed and it is doubtful we will see new 2 stroke bikes in the near future. So you 4 stroke guys get the ultimate last laugh I suppose. I don't blame anyone or the manufacturers for going that way, 4 strokes make good business sense.

[laeger400]

no insult buddy you are the one that said you where building exhaust when i was 6. you do have some nice bikes and the cnc looks like it gets alot of use. but since this was all over exhaust and you called me out on that! where are your expansion chambers? we can go back and forth forever. all i am saying is a tuned exhaust for a certain engine is no different than another. we build them for that reason to get the most out of the engine. a n/a engine vs a supercharged or turboed is no comparison. when i as at velocity everybike we built was 400 plus hp at the wheel. my bosses busa was 576 at the wheel with 32 lbs of boost. once again ford chevy and you really do have some nice trikes

Jerry

[troybilt]

Originally posted by Black Sheep
You make some valid points. It's to bad you can't have a discussion without your little jabs and insults. It takes away from your points.

I guess if you don't agree with certain theory's its because of how many strokes your engine has...lol

Just poking fun, don't get bent out of shape its not worth it...

Next we'll be talking about 6 stroke vs. 4 stroke.

[SilverLake250R]

Troy, speaking of that, check this out. Our senior design project was a type of six-stroke.... didn't get it to work, but it was interesting.

https://knightvision.calvin.edu/bbcswebdav/orgs/ENGR/senior-projects/2009_10/team14/web/index.html

You would have to download the full report to actually see what we were getting into.

[troybilt]

Nothing is wrong with that, my point is you'd need to turn the supercharger on and off for a small range of rpm... To mimic an expansion chamber. ..not to mention run at like 4 psi boost...

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by Black Sheep
Valves and cams on four strokes just "vent" the exhaust to the pipe.

Camshaft profiles intentionally have both intake and exhaust valves open at the same time to allow the momentum of the exhaust gasses to help pull in the fresh fuel/air mixture, but you're saying that is somehow different than the vacuum pulse of a 2-stroke pipe.

Intake valves don't close at BDC, because the incoming charge is still moving. Camshaft manufacturers intentionally design cams to close after BDC to take full advantage of the momentum of the incoming fuel/air charge. But again, you're claiming this is fair, but the compression wave of a 2-stroke pipe is not.

I'm not sure I follow your logic.

[troybilt]

Originally posted by SilverLake250R
Troy, speaking of that, check this out. Our senior design project was a type of six-stroke.... didn't get it to work, but it was interesting.

https://knightvision.calvin.edu/bbcswebdav/orgs/ENGR/senior-projects/2009_10/team14/web/index.html

You would have to download the full report to actually see what we were getting into.
Marc, thats cool stuff! I'm going to read up on that a little more...

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by Black Sheep
Guy's I am out on this one,

That's no fun. We haven't degraded into anything silly like name-calling, we're still having a civilized discussion.

Yes, the returning pressure wave is indeed designed to return unspent gasses to the cylinder. But that's the part that allows you to utilize the full 250cc of displacement.

Let's face it, if you wanted to argue "fair", if you did away with the expansion chamber then you would have to calculate engine size of a 2-stroke only by the actual trapped volume, i.e. after the exhaust port is closed. For 180 degrees of exhaust duration (a fair generalization for a stock 250r) that means we only have roughly 125cc of trapped volume to build compression and power.

You claim that an expansion chamber doubles the horsepower of a 2-stroke engine, I assume you are comparing that to the same engine output with a straight pipe. We off COURSE it does, because the returning pressure wave is what helps the engine build compression before the exhaust port closes. Without it, you're only dealing with half your displacement. It almost effectively doubles your engine size (depending on exhaust port timing) because you don't have to wait until 90 degrees after BDC to build compression.

[Langbolt]

Here's some more proof 2-Strokes aren't dead!

http://www.hcvservice.com/2010/04/direct-injection-keeps-two-stroke-alive-for-bombardier-in-2012/

:devil:

[stever250r]

This should Sum it all up... :devil: :D

[chronicsmoke]

Originally posted by Langbolt
Here's some more proof 2-Strokes aren't dead!

http://www.hcvservice.com/2010/04/direct-injection-keeps-two-stroke-alive-for-bombardier-in-2012/

:devil:

Good read, thanks Langbolt!

@ steve - hahahahaha what was the original title on it? (instead of 4stoke/2stroke?

[troybilt]

I promise not to poke fun or throw anymore jabs at 4 strokes... now with the disclaimer out of the way we can get back to the debate.

Would you agree that an engine is basically an airpump? So either motor can only "pump" so much air/fuel mixture correct? Now, the 2 stroke pumps "X2" amount of volume of air/fuel, and a certain percentage of that escapes "b" as the piston down travels and sucks the mixture in because there is no valves to close the cylinder off, i.e. X2-b = total volume V... The expansion chamber helps during a certain RPM to try and force that escaped volume 'b" back into the cylinder, to get back to the original "X2+b" or V volume in the cylinder... correct?

Now a 4 stroke without a supercharger pumps "X4" amount of volume of air/fuel mixture, add a super charger to the equation now you are forcing more volume of mixture i.e. "X4" plus a certain percentage "a" of extra volume of air/fuel so the new volume is X+a = V total volume...

The percentage that escaped from the 2 stroke is much much smaller than the forced extra volume into the 4 stroke. Would you agree?

Basically b < < a

This is my point of view. Note I am building a 450cc Saber MX bike, that I would gladly compare to a 450cc prolevel 4 stroke bike. For fun... I would still say that the 450 4 stroke will be the easier bike to ride MX and probably turn faster laps, even though the 450cc 2 stroke builds more power. Its one thing to build more power its another thing to apply that to the ground.

[troybilt]

Please keep in mind I'm not trying to be condescending, I was just trying to rationalize the theory in my head.

I think you're absolutely correct that if you get down the basics of expansion chambers and super chargers they do provide similar functions. I just think you give too much credit to the expansion chamber. We all know that 2 strokes, for the most part (not talking about 2011 2 strokes), are horribly fuel inefficient you can see that coming out of the silencer... 4 strokes do a much better job of burning all of the fuel/air mixture that was pumped into the engine.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Tory,
Its a waisted cause & time for a mod to review the first post of the member started this thread & deleat all the 4 stroke stuff not pretaining to it.
Neil

[wilkin250r]

I will present the other side of the arguement, because although Black Sheep said it many times, he never explained HOW it works.

We all know that when the piston begins it's uptravel, the reeds open and a fresh fuel/air mixture is sucked into the crankcase. What a lot of people don't know, or don't thing about, is that the reeds open a second time later on. When the piston is on it's down travel, the exhaust is traveling out of the exhaust port. When that exhaust hits the divergent section of the pipe, it reflects a vacuum wave back towards the cylinder. Most of this we all know.

When that vacuum pulse hits the cylinder, it pulls the rest of the exhaust out, and also helps pull the fresh fuel/air mixture in. But the piston is near BDC, if you look at the front of your cylinder, there is actually an opening that leads directly back into the intake without going through the crankcase (I've got a light shining through the spark plug hole, that's the glint you see on the piston).

[wilkin250r]

So when the vacuum wave hits the cylinder and pulls the exhaust out and the fresh fuel/air in, it will actually reach far back enough to open the reeds again and pull MORE fuel/air in through the carb a second time. So not only do you have the 250cc of fresh fuel/air charge that was originally in the crankcase, you also have this extra amount floating around in the cylinder and exhaust pipe.

Then we all know the sequence of events after that, the piston begins it's uptravel and closes the transfers. The returning pressure wave from the convergent section of the pipe comes and stuffs all that fuel/air into the cylinder as the piston continues to move upwards and eventually closes off the exhaust port.

So the point that Black Sheep never fully explained is that you have the original 250cc in the crankcase PLUS that extra amount that was pulled in by the vacuum wave, and it is indeed possible for the pressure wave from the pipe to stuff ALL of that into the cylinder and you actually get more than the original 250cc worth of intake charge into the cylinder.

[wilkin250r]

However, I'm still not buying the basic premise. Black Sheep is claiming that the expansion chamber doubles the horsepower, so he's claiming the exhaust pulse pulls an ADDITIONAL 250cc of air through that little opening that my little finger doesn't even fit through, or through all the twists and turns and turbulence in the crankcase in less than 1/10 the time it takes the piston to do it?

The claim is that the pressure wave from the pipe is actually stuffing 500cc of fuel/air into the cylinder, to the tune of about 15~20 psi?

I know the theory, but I think you're DRASTICALLY over-estimating it's effects. I can imagine 10-15% over something like a rotary valve or something similar in which the vacuum pulse doesn't have access to the intake track, certainly not 100% increase in power. I would say the vast majority of the power increase you'll see over a straight pipe is due to the returning pressure wave effectively sealing the exhaust port before it actually closes, allowing you to use the full displacement of your engine rather than just the trapped volume.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Wilkins,
Boy ol Mac Dizzy is a wonderfull thing aint it.
Neil

[250Renvy]

This is quite an interesting thread. I've actually read most of the posts however I would like to throw in my 2 cents and possibly get the thread back on topic of:

2 -strokes in the future.

The 2-stroke vs 4-stroke debate about power IMO ultimately has nothing to do with 2-strokes in the future.

2-strokes in the future has 2 competing sides - 1. The manufacturer and 2. The consumer.

The manufacturer's interests are selling product and making money. Market conditions ultimately dictate what the manufacturer produces.

In the early days of ATV's and motorcycles, 2-strokes were simple, lightweight motors that could deliver power in a smaller bore. It was probably the least amount of engineering involved to get a product to market. 4 stroke motors were big and heavy and needed lots of displacement to get the power because of the added weight.

I hope we can agree that the 4-stroke advocates say that the new 4-stroke race quads have new technology. This is a farce as the 4-stroke motor is not changed much in design, they just adapted it with alloy metals and high compression ratios to get the right amount of power to weight. This advancement in metals I believe was the ultimate catalist that brought these machines to market.

After they were introduced to the market, they would either flourish or stall and sit on shelves then ultimately be scrapped. The 4-stroke flourished and made the companies money because they were more money as well as having more parts to replace = more parts sales.

This is a +++ for the manufacturer.

The consumer is probably split: On one hand they like the 4-stroke because it is easiest to ride and race. It levels the playing field in that someone with little experience can go and ride well vs the 2-stroke which takes a lot of practice and skill to ride fast.

This is a ++ for the consumer.

In the dirtbike racing world, however there are racers who realize that because of so many moving parts and high compression motors, things break more and cost much more to fix. This is creating a desire for the 2-stroke back.

However with so many regulations and some of the issues discussed here, 2-strokes can be more polluting and much less fuel efficient. The solution is to invest in research and YES TECHNOLOGY like the direct injection computer controlled motors that some companies have developed but that would require a heavy investment on the manufacturers part to bring a product to market that only appeals to 1/4 the buyers.

So my conclusion, is that unless the market absolutely dictates that they want 2-strokes, most companies will NOT sacrifice profits to bring back or develop a product that makes them less money.

2-strokes will be available only if the market will make it profitable and companies that already have the developments and technology will be the only ones to produce them.

Remember as far as ATV's and dirt bikes go, racing is a small portion of the market. 4x4's and road motorcycles are their bread and butter.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

All good points Renvy, but add to that AMA dropping all the classes a 2 stroke or hybred could race in, turning the classes into "production" rule so only thing you could race was something new. Then the OEM picking out all the best Pro riders across the country & giving them all the bikes or quads they needed.
Then you end up with am riders wanting the same as what a Pro has & nothing to buy but a new production bike or quad off the show room floor.

We can hardly blame the Pro riders though, if it was any of us, which of us would turn down free over having to pay before.

Most everybody at first thought it was the tree huggers causing the change, but more are finding out they were only a small part of the change up.
Neil

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by 250Renvy
I hope we can agree that the 4-stroke advocates say that the new 4-stroke race quads have new technology. This is a farce as the 4-stroke motor is not changed much in design, they just adapted it with alloy metals and high compression ratios to get the right amount of power to weight. This advancement in metals I believe was the ultimate catalist that brought these machines to market.

Yes and no. The technology isn't new, but the new generation of 4-strokes are indeed a new generation, they have advancements in porting and engine design that earlier ATVs simply didn't have. A 400EX punched out to 440cc was generally running the 45~48hp range, and if you got over 50 you were doing great. Now the 450s can pull upwards of 60hp with bolt-ons and a bit of headwork.

It used to be 60HP was a dream, and you had to get huge bores and run a knife edge of reliability to obtain it. Nowadays, 60hp is very real, easily obtained, and the new goal is 75hp. Maybe not truly "new technology", but it's certainly an advancement.

[esstrx250r]

Everyone has their own preference and I think we should all have the option to go out and buy a new 2 stroke or 4 stroke and race or ride that bike. I also think if a 4 stroke gets a displacement advantage, HP should be inline. A stock TRX250R has what 25 hp and a stock LTR450 has around 50?

It would be nice if you could go to the dealer and buy either a 50hp 2 stroke or 4 stroke and race in the same class.

I decided to spend $8000. (at the very least) building a 89 TRX250R instead of going to the dealership and buying a brand new 450 for less. Not because one is better than the other but because I like 2 strokes better. My TRX250R is as close to new as you can make an 89 (a lot of you have seen my build on trx250r.net "Back from the Dead") but I would have much rather been able to go buy a brand new 2011 TRX250R, nothing is better than a brand new bike.

Why do I like 2 strokes?
1. Powerband
2. Lighter
3. Easier to work on
4. Sound (I love how two strokes sound and smell)
5. Runs cooler

The new 450's are beasts, I can't believe all the torque they have. That being said, I bought a YFZ when they first came out and I didn't like it at all, just not for me. I want to go to the dealership and be able to buy a brand new 300cc+ fuel injected two stroke. So build it, I will buy it. haha.

[250Renvy]

Let them know we want 2-strokes.

http://www.canamoffroad.com/ca/community/my-canam-idea.aspx

[Langbolt]

Originally posted by 250Renvy
Let them know we want 2-strokes.

http://www.canamoffroad.com/ca/community/my-canam-idea.aspx

Awesome!!!

Ok...Everyone....click the link and fill it out and be sure to include a link to this thread:

http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4157249#post4157249

in your submission.

Lets see if that get's them wishin' they DID release the DS with a 2-Stroke Powerplant

:devil:

[chronicsmoke]

Originally posted by Langbolt
Awesome!!!

Ok...Everyone....click the link and fill it out and be sure to include a link to this thread in your submission.

Lets see if that get's them wishin' they DID release the DS with a 2-Stroke Powerplant

:devil:

I replied and posted a link to DGS' DS250r Hybrid build in the hybrid section!

[SilverLake250R]

Originally posted by chronicsmoke
I replied and posted a link to DGS' DS250r Hybrid build in the hybrid section!

Yep, did the same thing.

[Langbolt]

Keep them goin!

The More posts they get the more chances of them really re-thinking about releasing a 2 stroke version of the DS.

When ya think about how easy it would be for them to do so....all the other DS450 Components are retained so it's a NO BRAINER!

I don't know why so many manufacturers make so many different parts between models.....the less SKU's ya have the more efficient you are

But that's a different topic entirely.

We just need DGS to release a V I D E O of the 2-Stroke DS and that will get BRP's Attention

:devil:

[chronicsmoke]

If they were to release it, wouldn't they have to list it as a "closed course compitition" sticker on it? Isn't that the loophole that allows current 2-T bikes to be retailed, while 2-T quads were discontinued?

Which would probably dominate the closed course, but realistically, I dont think BRP is as concerned with 'Race Devellopment" as they are with sales. How many would they actually sell? That's the gamble..

[etccb]

I agree. They would have to make it pass the EPA testing and get the state lic rules sorted out before hand to sell any large numbers.

[250Renvy]

Originally posted by etccb
I agree. They would have to make it pass the EPA testing and get the state lic rules sorted out before hand to sell any large numbers.

I think, that's the point. BRP already has the e-tec and evinrude motors which are already more fuel efficient and have less pollution than the current 4-strokes.

[headache]

I filled it out and submitted it. Can am should really make that quad. IT would be the only new quad i would buy!

[etccb]

Originally posted by 250Renvy
I think, that's the point. BRP already has the e-tec and evinrude motors which are already more fuel efficient and have less pollution than the current 4-strokes.

I know that they have the e-tec technology but I was under the impression that some laws used the words 2 stroke 4 stroke. I just did a little research and I was wrong about that as far as the california green and red stickers go. If they are all set up like this it will be easier then I first thought. Bring in on CanAm!

From the California DMV website:
California Air Resources Board (ARB) established regulations to limit the use of Off-Highway Vehicles (OHVs) that do not meet emission standards applicable for California OHV riding areas. After the regulations were established, ARB and DMV worked together to develop criteria for identifying non-complying OHVs. OHVs are registered by the Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV). A red or green sticker is issued depending upon certain criteria.

Green stickers are issued for all California OHVs year model 2002 and older, including those that were previously issued a red sticker, and to 2003 and newer complying vehicles. Green stickers are issued to OHVs for year round use at all California OHV riding areas.

Red stickers are issued to 2003 year model and newer OHVs that are not certified to California OHV emission standards. If your OHV has a "3" or "C" in the eighth position of the vehicle identification number (VIN) then your vehicle will be issued a red sticker. Red stickers are issued to OHVs that can use California OHV riding areas for seasonal use only.

[destey]

Great information and facts in this thread. One problem though, the liberals / pro-regulation crowd doesn't care about facts. They're close minded and don't care what the facts are, engines are evil and 2 strokes are even more evil. Once something is banned like this, you will never see it unbanned. The liberals have come after almost every one of my hobbies and they get where they want to go via incrementalism. Couple that with the fact that none of their nonsense is ever repealed, and we're stuck in a worse situation each year. I'm just thankful ATVs aren't banned completely.

Yes I have a pessimistic view, its from years of seeing this crap unfold.

[trs9102]

I’m probably off in the weeds on this, but here are a couple thoughts that just popped in my head as I’m reading this thread.

First of all, I feel the racing 4 stroke had us all buffaloed, at least me, when they came to the market. Because the 4 strokes we were all use to were reliable low maintenance machines (i.e. 250x, all utilities, even the 300 & 400 ex), and the thought of having this new 4 stroke that would perform like the existing 2 stroke race bikes sounded great. However, when the newer 4 strokes came to the market, I don’t recall anyone ever saying these bikes are not the reliable 4 strokes of the past (reliable being the key word). So several people were headed down the path of 4 strokes (ill informed); this got the proverbial ball rolling. The manufacture’s also done an excellent job with marketing. And yes there are the advantages of the power delivery of the 4 strokes if money is not an issue.

As far as cc’s are concerned, is there any merit to the idea that a 2 stroke which produces a power cycle every revolution has the advantage when compared to a 4 stroke which produces a power stroke every two revolution. Would this have had any input into the decision to allow larger displacements on 4 stroke motors, not so much the expansion chamber offered on the 2 stroke? The two stroke as atv riders know it are simple, and the expansion chamber, though in theory is complicated and truly genius, is a simple way of utilizing more of the engines displacement without adding valve trains and the added expense of them.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Trs,
add to what you just said, those 4 strokes today are nothing more than those made years before, just not air cooled anymore, BUT, they now have a small flywheel which make them seam like the HP has doubled, but not.
Nothing more than just like an ugly woman & then next time you see her shes all dressed up with a new hair do.

Think about it & check & see if any difference from the old 4 strokes.
Neil

[JoePA]

Neil this saying is the best yet!!! I think this needs to be on a TRX250R shirt!! Heck I think I'm going to have a few made up!! Neil I'll make sure you are fist on the list!!

Your 4 stroke is just an ugly woman all dressed up with a new hair do!

[chronicsmoke]

Langbolt found this in June in the Can-Am forum:

http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=432839&perpage=10&pagenumber=7

Some pretty interesting stuff. How does TPR get this info???

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Anybody heard anything from that DS19 guy on here, he still around or hiding somewhere because of the dumb remarks he made about 2 strokes.
I know, I bet hes broke from rebuilding that 4 poke & cant pay his internet bill like so many others across the USA.

Answer me this,
Why would a racing asso, change all their classes to production rule, where all you could race with was one of the new 4 stroke atvs being produced today.
Why ??, it would have to be a mighty big reason.

If I owned the racing asso & with the economy like it is today, you can rest assured there would be NO production rule in place to make anybody that wanted to race have to go out & buy a new atv.
Production class probably could be for support of the major oems, but where are they now, whoosh gone again like the many times before & it will keep happening unless the American Public wakes up.
Sad part is, how many times will the aftermarkets end up kicked in the ditch & still survive.
WE, have got to stop doing that to them, plain & simple, look how long they have hung in there.
Neil

[troybilt]

Originally posted by C-LEIGH RACING
Anybody heard anything from that DS19 guy on here, he still around or hiding somewhere because of the dumb remarks he made about 2 strokes.
I know, I bet hes broke from rebuilding that 4 poke & cant pay his internet bill like so many others across the USA.

Answer me this,
Why would a racing asso, change all their classes to production rule, where all you could race with was one of the new 4 stroke atvs being produced today.
Why ??, it would have to be a mighty big reason.

If I owned the racing asso & with the economy like it is today, you can rest assured there would be NO production rule in place to make anybody that wanted to race have to go out & buy a new atv.
Production class probably could be for support of the major oems, but where are they now, whoosh gone again like the many times before & it will keep happening unless the American Public wakes up.
Sad part is, how many times will the aftermarkets end up kicked in the ditch & still survive.
WE, have got to stop doing that to them, plain & simple, look how long they have hung in there.
Neil

I couldn't agree more, the Production rule is killing the sport. Can Am is the only OEM supporting a team. How long will that last? I'd like to know who came up with that rule, I'd kick their *****

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Troy,
You would have a bunch of kicking to do & chasing them down, cause aint none of them in office now.
Who is in office now, is waking up & can see what is going on out in the atv world & making changes that make sence.

Remember,,, 2 strokes in Pro Am & 306cc. That is just in EDT racing, but probably will follow in other racing as time goes by.
Neil

[troybilt]

Originally posted by C-LEIGH RACING
Troy,
You would have a bunch of kicking to do & chasing them down, cause aint none of them in office now.
Who is in office now, is waking up & can see what is going on out in the atv world.
Neil

Well that sounds like good news, if they folks in the office making the decisions now are seeing the consequences of the previous leadership's actions. The quad world, just isn't and won't be the same as the dirtbike world... The aftermarkets are what make the quad world what it is today. Started back in 1990 when all the manufacturers bailed back then for 15 years, imo.

[etccb]

Originally posted by C-LEIGH RACING

Remember,,, 2 strokes in Pro Am & 306cc. That is just in EDT racing, but probably will follow in other racing as time goes by.
Neil

They need to get this same rule in mx and gncc then the new CanAm if it is ever made should be a 300 and not a 250. That is a more even starting point to the 450 4 strokes.

[woodsracer144]

Originally posted by Ruf Racing
You under estimate, the intelligences of the masses. The 4 stroke quads and dirtbikes that are made today, are by far the best, that's every been manufactured. The proof is in the ride.

I dis agree with you, a 4 stroke is more idiot proof but I personally thing the 2 strokes would hose them with the right porter and bore.

your going to tell me how cat owns in sno cross? along with skidoo

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by woodsracer144
I dis agree with you, a 4 stroke is more idiot proof but I personally thing the 2 strokes would hose them with the right porter and bore.

your going to tell me how cat owns in sno cross? along with skidoo he means that the 4 strokes made now are better then any previous 4 strokes, not better then the old 2 stokes,

But i feel we are in for more issues then just hoping to get 2 strokes back,

all the new 4 strokes are going to be much more restricted then anything ever manufactured,

all with limits set by sensors reading emissions, not the actual motors needs

with all the battery run,relayed, sensored,error coded,restricted,fuel injected,with wire harness and components that the average rider will be afraid to touch or trouble shoot,

most people wont even be able to work on there own electrical systems.

thus taking the small part time racer out of the competition,
to be competitive, the machines will have to be dyno tuned, adding more costs to the racers just squeaking by.

most will be forced to have a dealer fix and trouble shoot there quads.

I feel bigger problems from all these restrictions, placed on the next generation of quads, will be loss of more numbers at the line

even if a new 2 stroke came out, it would be far from the simple cheap to fix 250r of the past! it would be so chocked up and restricted, it wouldn't be the same type of machine, and very electrically sensored limited motor

[chronicsmoke]

Kickstart/Carb is where it's at!

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by chronicsmoke
Kickstart/Carb is where it's at! yes I agree!!!

FI, e-start,and battery run systems.. will be the beginning of the end, for small racers:scary:

[C41Xracer]

im kind of curious of the fourstroke vs. twostroke debate in racing. Can someone look up lap times of some of the best pro 2 stroke rider and some of todays best pro 4 stroke riders and post them up??

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Ok, let take an ol a/c 4 poker from years ago & put it beside one of the new models & see the difference.

Head, valves, cam, intake tract, exhaust tract, humm same moving stuff on either old or new, so no magic there, except on the ol a/c engine you dont have to worrie about blowing a hole when porting into a water jacket.
Ol a/c, pop a hole, weld it up & keep cutting on that fool.

Pistons, now we are getting into something. New model engine, dont know if you would call them a piston or not, more like a washer with a wrist pin hole under it.
Old a/c engine, it had a big slug you could run & run.
Is that little thin lite new model piston magic, try one like that in one of the old a/c engines & see, you'll end up with the same results, quicker revs.

Bottom end, crankshaft is still round just like all the others & got a rod hooked to it. Only magic there, it might be lighter than the old model a/c cranks, but the job it does is the same except it will rev faster.

Flywheels, now lot of difference there. New models are way smaller & in turn lighter & stators are smaller so not as much drag, so the engine will rev up way faster.
Old a/c engines had large heavy flywheels & big magnets & big stators that created a lot of drag, so in turn they wouldnt rev up as fast as the new models.

Now I could be wrong, but where is all the new fangled MAGIC that these new 4 stroke engines suppose to have.

Water cooling to keep a constant temp & the lighter & smaller rotating parts so the engine will rev up faster is all it is different from engines in the past. You take that ol 70 something 4 poker engine & lighten up everything like the new models & you got the same thing except for the temp control.

Outside of the engine, now you have a lot more fancy stuff for the owner to contend with, stuff that if they mess with & dont know what they are doing, only place can fix it is a shop.

A simple example of how no more than it is or has been done, you take a 5 HP Briggs gokart engine & buy or make a coil adapter mount to down rig the coil from a push lawnmower over to the 5 hp, & then bolt the little small aluminum push mower flywheel on the crank, doing away with that big heavy cast iron flywheel that came on the 5 hp & you have a stock engine that will rev up so fast it will just about snatch the connecting rod out of the piston. Add to that, no more than that has been done to the stock Briggs engine & it will just about run with a modified 5 hp Briggs engine.

So, wheres the magic suppose to be in all this new stuff other than owners are spending more money that years before.
Neil

[DnB_racing]

no magic or any change in the basic principle,

but better flow designs, lighter materials,with the advancement in computer modeling and designs, has made them a more high revving quicker motor,then the old 70's

but none of this will matter,in a few years,

as long as we still have a carb and a kicker, then we have a future,

once we loose these and go all electronic, you can say goodbye to any chance of a return of a 2 stroke, as we know them

all you have to do is look what happened to the r450 with the cherry bomb, to realize what the future holds in store

[chronicsmoke]

Originally posted by C41Xracer
im kind of curious of the fourstroke vs. twostroke debate in racing. Can someone look up lap times of some of the best pro 2 stroke rider and some of todays best pro 4 stroke riders and post them up??

I'd like to see it too, though I think its still 90% rider.. But it's fun to compare.

I agree with C-Leigh in the fact that they are basically the same engine, but everything has been made better. (performance wise, DEFINETLY NOT reliability.) But 2 strokes made the same changes didn't they? (air cooled to liquid, performance enhancing mods.)

[C41Xracer]

in my opinion the when oil producers stop making 2 stroke oil is when your hopes of a '' new '' 2 stoke production atv will stop. Ive heard this rumor floating around (compliments of the gov.)
Thats the reason i sold all of my R stuff

[headache]

i don't think they will quit making 2stroke oil anytime soon. do you know how many millions off weedeaters, boat motors, snowmobiles, and other items that are 2 strokes besides quads and dirtbikes there are?

[Motofool250r]

2 stroke oil is not going away im over in italy right now and all i hear is two strokes everywhere

[woodsracer144]

Originally posted by C41Xracer
in my opinion the when oil producers stop making 2 stroke oil is when your hopes of a '' new '' 2 stoke production atv will stop. Ive heard this rumor floating around (compliments of the gov.)
Thats the reason i sold all of my R stuff

dont see this pulling through.. chainsaws, weed wackers, boat motors, sleds, jet skis, bikes, atvs. some water pumps. all run with 2 stroke motors, and thats not even touching what they all run... your telling me Stihl is gonna run a 4 stroke saw? I dont think so...

[woodsracer144]

Oh and i forgot to mention I'm gonna be starting a KTM300 build in a Cdale chassis i have, I'm picking up the motor this afternoon, Its a little older, (89) but still should be good. and its only 100 bones... thanks C list...

[chronicsmoke]

Originally posted by woodsracer144
Oh and i forgot to mention I'm gonna be starting a KTM300 build in a Cdale chassis i have, I'm picking up the motor this afternoon, Its a little older, (89) but still should be good. and its only 100 bones... thanks C list...


Keep us posted! Thats my ideal hybrid engine :)

[C41Xracer]

I hope it never happens but if the epa says its harmful for the enviornment the gov. will put a stop to oil burners. I have noticed more 4 stroke weed wackers and things that used to be 2 stroke only now are 4 strokes.as well.

[guy310]

I have to chime in about the "new fangled 4T technology" the c-leigh is talking about. To an extent old 4T and new 4T are the same but many more things are different than just lightening up a few rotating parts here and there. Thats a little too simplistic. I have owned 2T and 4T over the years and I like them both but I do agree with the opinion that the 2T is a cheaper rebuild. Just way too many more moving parts on a modern 4T. I also don't remember any of the old school 4T having titanium valves or 5 valves per head or not having rocker arms but maybe I missed something. Since 2000 I have owned all 4T (Cannondale, TRX, YFZ) but I will be getting a 250r again in the next couple of weeks because they are just simpler and like someone else on this thread said, "they are just cooler to ride". I hope in the future they make and sell both. The more choices we have as riders the better.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Originally posted by guy310
I have to chime in about the "new fangled 4T technology" the c-leigh is talking about. To an extent old 4T and new 4T are the same but many more things are different than just lightening up a few rotating parts here and there. Thats a little too simplistic. I have owned 2T and 4T over the years and I like them both but I do agree with the opinion that the 2T is a cheaper rebuild. Just way too many more moving parts on a modern 4T. I also don't remember any of the old school 4T having titanium valves or 5 valves per head or not having rocker arms but maybe I missed something. Since 2000 I have owned all 4T (Cannondale, TRX, YFZ) but I will be getting a 250r again in the next couple of weeks because they are just simpler and like someone else on this thread said, "they are just cooler to ride". I hope in the future they make and sell both. The more choices we have as riders the better.


Your right about the different up to date moving parts, but the basic design is the same as years ago, just a little more new fangled.
Shucks, the ol 2 stroke is the same design, but one thing still remains, riders/racers aint going broke trying to keep a 2 stroke running like they are with the 4 pokes.

Its time for a change in racing, we've lost to many riders because they couldnt keep schelling out the money keeping the 4 stroke running.

I'ma tell ya'll again,,,,, you need to remember Dec 7th 1941 what happened on that day, cause its kinda the same thing going on today like a snake in tall grass, but aint nobody paying attention.

Think about it real good, whos making the money.
Neil

[destey]

New Skidoo etec 800's are getting 19mpg.

Pretty insane considering I started on a 1980 skidoo citation 377cc that got 6mpg.

[crlt250r]

Not sure if these links have been posted, but here goes. Long read, but quite informative. It seems as though it mostly become an issue of Honda vs the world. BRP has completely ditched 4 stroke development because their E-Tec 2 stroke is superior to them. Aprilia, and others are damned with their 2 strokes due to false propaganda, even though they have the ability NOW to release machines that are far superior in eficiency, reliability, and ridability.

http://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/06/two-strokes-strike-back/

Another


http://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/09/four-stroke-revolution-or-clever-marketing-ploy/

[C-LEIGH RACING]

crlt250r,
Good read both of those.
I wish there was a way we could get those topics out so everybody could read them just to let everybody know what AMA & FIM has done.

I've heard it so many times I'm sick of hearing it, people saying the 2 stroke is dead cause you dont see anybody running them anymore.
Well I guess you dont see racers on them, when you have the MFGs giving all the top Pro riders all the new 4 pokes they want to race, so that leaves nothing but a 4 poke for the Am rider to use.
Then you had the AMA changing classes kicking the 2 strokes out & no where for them to run, what was everybody to do, quit or buy a 4 poke.

The day has come though, ol big dog 4 poke has eat enough & time for a change.

If you own a track, its time you stood up & stick to the gun on the noise limit for 4 pokes.
All the obnoxious noise from them is no good for your track & in the end will cause you problems.
Thats one way I know we can do something about it, make them do something about the noise.
Neil

[crlt250r]

It's come to the simple, and unrealistic perception of the 2 stroke. Just like in the 80's when the public thought that diesels were powerless, smoky, and thirsty engines. Now look at Ford, cummins, and the GM Isuzumax. They destroyed the old perceptions of diesels. It's time for the 2 stroke market to be the same. Ford, Lotus, Chrysler, and Fiat have all jumped on with the company that developed the new DI system for the E-Tec. The resurgence is eminent, we merely have to be patient.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Originally posted by crlt250r
It's come to the simple, and unrealistic perception of the 2 stroke. Just like in the 80's when the public thought that diesels were powerless, smoky, and thirsty engines. Now look at Ford, cummins, and the GM Isuzumax. They destroyed the old perceptions of diesels. It's time for the 2 stroke market to be the same. Ford, Lotus, Chrysler, and Fiat have all jumped on with the company that developed the new DI system for the E-Tec. The resurgence is eminent, we merely have to be patient.

Yeah, but Ford got rid of the best engine they ever had the ol 7.3.
No way that sick0 will ever replace that 7.3.
Neil

[crlt250r]

I was refering to the GM 350 diesels.. LOL