steering ? plz help!

[breyer816]

ok i have + 2 a arms and when i turn the handlebars all the way to the left or right the rims hit the backside of the a arms. ive tried adjusting the tierods but it throws ths steering way off. any advice? all help is very much appreciated im wanting to get new rims but i got to fix this problem first. i have no idea what size the tierods are or even how to tell if they are + 2. anybody had this problem before? thanks again

[dustin_j]

Start by setting your toe in. Use rachet straps to hold your handlebars straight. Then, adjust your tie rods to adjust your toe. Measure between your front rims on the front side and the rear side. The front measurement should be roughly 1/4" smaller than the rear when the quad is sitting on the ground. Also measure from the same points on the rims to the front a-arm mount or something to make sure they are pointing straight. You can try eyeballing it, but but it'll never look right, haha.

If your toe is set correctly and your rims still touch, your steering stops on either the frame or the steering stem may have been ground off.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by dustin_j
Start by setting your toe in. Use rachet straps to hold your handlebars straight. Then, adjust your tie rods to adjust your toe. Measure between your front rims on the front side and the rear side. The front measurement should be roughly 1/4" smaller than the rear when the quad is sitting on the ground. Also measure from the same points on the rims to the front a-arm mount or something to make sure they are pointing straight. You can try eyeballing it, but but it'll never look right, haha.

If your toe is set correctly and your rims still touch, your steering stops on either the frame or the steering stem may have been ground off.

To add to this, in order to get proper toe-in setup, the rider should be ON the quad as well. Toe will change with weight on the quad.

[dustin_j]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
To add to this, in order to get proper toe-in setup, the rider should be ON the quad as well. Toe will change with weight on the quad.

Or even better, remove your shocks and find the frame height at which the wheels toe out the most (I don't remember for sure, but I think my 400ex was around 4" frame height for this). Set zero to slightly toed in at this point. This provides minimal toe in while preventing any toe out due to bump steer. However, most people refuse to remove their shocks and take measurements to actually setup their quad correctly ;) .

Otherwise, I agree that your recommendation is better; thank you for clarifying.

[400exrider707]

With all the different frame geometry's, I'm not sure how well that would work. It seems like on some quads at ride height it could be towing out a fair amount. I've never heard of this method, interesting.

[TheLane]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
With all the different frame geometry's, I'm not sure how well that would work. It seems like on some quads at ride height it could be towing out a fair amount. I've never heard of this method, interesting.


x2 on that, sometimes even at dead center you want a bit of toe and camber. the previous method works great. also consult the a arm manufacturer for proper setup, they should have a guide.

[dustin_j]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
With all the different frame geometry's, I'm not sure how well that would work. It seems like on some quads at ride height it could be towing out a fair amount. I've never heard of this method, interesting.

If you set toe to zero or "slightly" toed in at the point in which your have the most toe out (think bump steer), you are GUARANTEED to never be toed out. However, you are correct that every application would have to be measured to know at what frame height to set at.

If you watch toe change during wheel travel (bump steer), my 450R and previous 400EX (only ones I've measured thus far) start to toe out from full extension, then reach a maximum point and start to toe in again before bottom out. This maximum point is the worst case toe out. This is hard to explain in words, let me know if it doesn't make sense. I learned this at the M@ul Tech ATV suspension school; and it makes much more sense to measure your application for optimum results, rather than do X for every Y atv.

I used to set 1/4" toe in at ride height, but found out that my 400ex would still toe out slightly under G-out situations. This resulted in twitchy steering on some jump faces; when I set it per the method above, the twitchiness went away and steering was still good throughout the travel.

This further points to the incorrect-ness of my first post in this thread; however, I just wanted to help him center his steering quick on his own.

[400exrider707]

No toe out is great, but a LOT of toe in isn't going to help either. I will continue to set my toe at "0" at ride height with a rider on the quad.

Twitchy steering is more effected by your castor than toe, in my experience. Something I always had issues with on my 04/05 450R's. They always seemed to be twitchy, until it was dialed in. Obviously both toe and castor will play a role though.

I like to think I know what I'm talking about with suspension setups. :D So yes, bumpsteer I understand, and I've had a lot of experience with the two machines you've mentioned.

Think about what you're saying, if you have your toe set at 0 at the point which it is most toed out, then as your suspension compresses you're going to have a crazy amount of toe in. I don't want toe-in or toe-out, but unfortunately with our frame designs, we will always have bumpsteer. Why can't all sport quads come with a Laeger Narrow Frame setup? :chinese:

[dustin_j]

That's perfectly fine if you don't change how you set toe; I agree with your point on excessive toe in. I'm just sharing something I've learned that works better for me and makes more sense to me. I prefer to measure my own setups and make decisions based on my own measurements (maybe it's the engineer coming out :))

I do belive you are making a lot of assumptions that are incorrect. I challenge you to observe change in toe with wheel travel. You will notice that on these two machines, they toe in the most at full extension and begin to toe out as the frame travels downward from ride height. At a certain point (I'll try to remember to look at home for the actual height), they reach a toe out "maximum" and begin to toe in again. The "excessive toe in" that this setup yields is only at full extension.

Twitchy was a bad description. I was noticing a lack of straight line stability under G-out; the quad would want to dart left or right on the jump face. I believe this was caused by toe out from bump steer. Although, maybe my initial toe setting (using the method you are describing) wasn't set as well as I thought either, so feel free to make your own decision. However, when I set toe according to the method I described, my steering was more responsive and very stable (even during G-outs).

I'm not challenging your knowledge; you've helped many out on this site including myself. I'm just challening you with another method; if I've made you think then that's all I'm after. I agree with you on the narrow frame setup, haha.

[CJM]

dustin, check your pm, got a small Q for ya. TY

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by dustin_j
That's perfectly fine if you don't change how you set toe; I agree with your point on excessive toe in. I'm just sharing something I've learned that works better for me and makes more sense to me. I prefer to measure my own setups and make decisions based on my own measurements (maybe it's the engineer coming out :))

I do belive you are making a lot of assumptions that are incorrect. I challenge you to observe change in toe with wheel travel. You will notice that on these two machines, they toe in the most at full extension and begin to toe out as the frame travels downward from ride height. At a certain point (I'll try to remember to look at home for the actual height), they reach a toe out "maximum" and begin to toe in again. The "excessive toe in" that this setup yields is only at full extension.

Twitchy was a bad description. I was noticing a lack of straight line stability under G-out; the quad would want to dart left or right on the jump face. I believe this was caused by toe out from bump steer. Although, maybe my initial toe setting (using the method you are describing) wasn't set as well as I thought either, so feel free to make your own decision. However, when I set toe according to the method I described, my steering was more responsive and very stable (even during G-outs).

I'm not challenging your knowledge; you've helped many out on this site including myself. I'm just challening you with another method; if I've made you think then that's all I'm after. I agree with you on the narrow frame setup, haha.


I spent a lot of time with the shocks off just watching the wheel motions through the air on my 450R specifically the 04/05 models.

I know exactly what you're talking about.

No need to "search" for the exact height, it's where the arms/tie rods become perfectly perpendicular with respect to all of their pivoting points. I'd imagine this would be very close to perpendicular to the ground itself. It will also depend on frame design/spindle design and location of the a-arm mounts on the spindle and frame, and the tie rod end mounts. This is a hard concept to explain though, without having a quad in front of you and cycling it like you suggested.

We're both chasing the same goal, and I'd be willing to bet that even setting a quad up with each individual method would end with nearly the same result. A properly set up race quad with correct suspension and a rider sitting on the quad, will probably sit pretty darn close to where you set your toe at anyways.

I think I misunderstood what you were saying before. I was envisioning you adjust toe with the quad at full droop, and that is wrong.

I'm a mechanical engineer myself, but often times have a hard time envisioning things that aren't physically in my hands (thus why I spent so much time cycling my wheels up and down with the shock off).

I was trying not to make any assumptions, just share my experiences, whether they go with the "flow" or not. I've been "told" many different methods of setting ATV's up, some good, some not. So I often will just take everything with a grain of salt until I can physically try it myself. I see where you're coming from now, and I think we're actually on the same page here...

[dustin_j]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
I was trying not to make any assumptions, just share my experiences, whether they go with the "flow" or not. I've been "told" many different methods of setting ATV's up, some good, some not. So I often will just take everything with a grain of salt until I can physically try it myself. I see where you're coming from now, and I think we're actually on the same page here...

I appreciate your post and agree we're probably splitting hairs when we get down to it; I was just challenging some debate :) . If more people followed your statement above, we might actually have some more debate on this site. I still enjoy the more thorough process to visually see the amount of bump steer I'm working with. However, once you understand that amount, toe adjustments can be done however you'd like from there.

I understand where your comments came from now, and I agree with your statements related to it. For clarity I will repeat what you said, NEVER set toe with the shocks fully extended!

I need to do some more research (visual with shocks off) and possibly some measurements/calculations to further investigate this. You're right the position of max toe out is not that difficult to determine (if the machine is in front of you), but I still like to cycle it to visually see the differences. When I get my a-arms in, I'll try to do a comparison between the two methods to see how much of a difference exists; however, it's still only one data point.

Thanks,
Dustin

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by dustin_j
I appreciate your post and agree we're probably splitting hairs when we get down to it; I was just challenging some debate :) . If more people followed your statement above, we might actually have some more debate on this site. I still enjoy the more thorough process to visually see the amount of bump steer I'm working with. However, once you understand that amount, toe adjustments can be done however you'd like from there.

I understand where your comments came from now, and I agree with your statements related to it. For clarity I will repeat what you said, NEVER set toe with the shocks fully extended!

I need to do some more research (visual with shocks off) and possibly some measurements/calculations to further investigate this. You're right the position of max toe out is not that difficult to determine (if the machine is in front of you), but I still like to cycle it to visually see the differences. When I get my a-arms in, I'll try to do a comparison between the two methods to see how much of a difference exists; however, it's still only one data point.

Thanks,
Dustin

It would be interesting to see none the less. Definitely keep us posted on that!

Some good technical debate is one thing this site was lacking for the longest time (probably still is) and one of the reasons I hardly come here anymore. Nice to know some there are still some members who enjoy learning (as do I!) and can actually discuss topics like adults! Cheers to you brotha! :cool:

[01 400EXer]

I had had the same problem at one time due to cutting some off of the steering stops. Cut a little to much. My fix was weld back onto the steering stops and now it is perfect. I can turn sharper than originally but still have about a 1/2 inch before it his the rim. This was all on a stock steering stem. If you have an aftermarket steering stem the stops may be allowing your issue to happen.