New Project [Archive] - ATV Riders Forum

wilkin250r

07-06-2011, 10:24 AM

The cummins diesel swap is a really common one. I've never done one, but I've done the research because I have a similar truck (but I think I'm going 454 instead). I haven't heard anything about frame issues.

A complete frame-off restoration is a major endeavor. Even without an engine swap, you're spending thousands of dollars and countless hours because you're replacing all those little rusted nuts and bolts, redoing fuel lines, and changing worn-out components, and if you're not doing that, then what's the point of a frame-off restoration to begin with?

Tommy Warren

07-06-2011, 11:01 AM

And powdercoating a frame is not cheap by any mean...you have to find a way to ship it...find somone with a large enough oven...and pay them a large amount to do it....just rhino line it at home. There is a company that sells styrofoam cummins motors so you can place it in the fram and get all the motor mounts and stuff figured out so you don't have to keep putting in the cummins and taking it back out

Trx450er94

07-06-2011, 11:53 AM

My dad owns a powder coating business in new jersey and his shop is big so I have a place to take it apart and everything I also did some research and the cummins I think is the best way to go my friend is doing one to he has about 30000 prolly rapped up in his everything is chrome redoing the whole truck .. If your not going to do it right don't do it at all post some pics of your truck

PaRedneckRiders

07-06-2011, 01:14 PM

I have seen the cummins swap many time with the 12v 24v and even the 4bt cummins.
I was thinking about finding a Crew cab 1ton and doing a cummins swap but not sure yet even though i no of 2 crew cabs that are local that could possibly go up for sale with a little coaxing and some $$.

Ya if you plan on doing a frame off then take your time and dont go cheap on big ticket parts.

What are your plans for the trans. and T-case??

Also what axles are you planing on running and what do you plan on doing with the truck??

What is the truck 1/2ton 3/4ton or 1ton didn't see you mention that anywhere.

also if you plan on starting a build thread i suggest checking out these two sites both are great places to post your projects and find some good info.
There are a number of cummins swaps on the second link

FSC(Full Size Chevy)
http://www.fullsizechevy.com/forum/forum.php

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/index.php

fastredrider44

07-06-2011, 01:16 PM

30,000 is a lot of money to spend on a truck that you won't want to drive out of the city limits and WILL cause problems.

PaRedneckRiders

07-06-2011, 01:20 PM

Also i would check your state legal requirements. Some states are really strict on lift laws. Would really suck to finish a build to find out its not going to be legal. There are ways around this problem but most can still run you into problems just a though of something to check before you start.

Trx450er94

07-06-2011, 01:35 PM

I haven't thought about all the small things yet I paid 200 for the truck runs and drives wwith 50k miles on it .. Its a 3/4 ton it does need work I am prolly going to use a 12v they are pretyy simple my cousin is making about 700 hp with his put he has twin turbo injectors a lot of work but well worth it I personally love the black smoke and the limit is 38.5 which I am going to run and 30,000 is a lot especially when your 15 and you don't olan on driving it lol

Aarons 01 400EX

07-06-2011, 01:45 PM

Maybe it is old age, but if I'm spending $30,000 on a truck, it better be brand new with 0 miles on it when I drive it off the lot.

Trx450er94

07-06-2011, 01:49 PM

Yea that's tru I feel the same way I'm not looking to spend over 10k maybe 15k

Scro

07-06-2011, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by wilkin250r
The cummins diesel swap is a really common one. I've never done one, but I've done the research because I have a similar truck (but I think I'm going 454 instead). I haven't heard anything about frame issues.

It seems like I remember seeing some military blazers from this time period that had a diesel engine. I suppose it's based on the same frame as the truck, but I'm not sure which engine it was.

YOURADHERE

07-06-2011, 03:04 PM

Not to be "that guy" but how do you plan to pay for all this? I know just about all 15 year olds get crazy pipe dreams of all the cool stuff they can buy when they get a job then reality hits. I know, I was the same way.

Trx450er94

07-06-2011, 03:56 PM

My dad and I work and I got a bunch of stuff to sell

PaRedneckRiders

07-06-2011, 05:44 PM

Originally posted by Scro
It seems like I remember seeing some military blazers from this time period that had a diesel engine. I suppose it's based on the same frame as the truck, but I'm not sure which engine it was.
The blazers had a V8 6.2 diesel.

If you are really wanting to go through do some research and find out what you want.
I know it may seem like a pain but if you no exactly what your looking for then you know to try and get it whenever you get a chance.

Im not saying dont trust people that tell you things but do your own research and find what you want to do before you do it.

After you research it, you never know. You may want to go totally different direction with the build.

CJM

07-06-2011, 06:07 PM

Those old military and civy blazers and pick ups have the 6.2, one of the single worst diesels ever made. Not only is it slow compared to a 4cyl car, but they are electrical nightmares b/c they run a hybrid 12/24v system. Id buy a cummins or IDI or something other that pos.

250rsforlife

07-06-2011, 06:43 PM

Originally posted by Aarons 01 400EX
Maybe it is old age, but if I'm spending $30,000 on a truck, it better be brand new with 0 miles on it when I drive it off the lot.
i dont think its old age cuz im 16 and im thinkin the same thing;)

HondaPohl

07-06-2011, 07:38 PM

Dont even waste your time. Buy a dodge and do it to that. The 2500's with the Dana 60 front and the Dana 70 rears is the way to go. That IFS in those Chevys cant handle it. Plus the lifts are expensive. My opinion. Or do a straight axle swap.

PaRedneckRiders

07-06-2011, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by HondaPohl
Dont even waste your time. Buy a dodge and do it to that. The 2500's with the Dana 60 front and the Dana 70 rears is the way to go. That IFS in those Chevys cant handle it. Plus the lifts are expensive. My opinion. Or do a straight axle swap.
Its an 87 chevy so it has a solid axle anything pre 88 chevy was solid axle unless it was 2wd and plus solid axle swaps are getting to be really popular.

Trx450er94

07-06-2011, 07:58 PM

Dodges are just ugly truck I don't like any of them the 87 chevy is the best looking body style and it will be a cool project and money I'm not worried about I'm going to take my time and do it right

Trx450er94

07-06-2011, 08:14 PM

Found this pic its pretty close to what I want

Trx450er94

07-06-2011, 08:16 PM

Found this also

wilkin250r

07-06-2011, 10:26 PM

I'm a few years away from this thing being perfect. I'll probably never do a frame-off restoration, I'm only planning on doing a few hundred dollars at at time (with the exception of big-ticket items like engine, tranny, and tires).

400exrider69

07-06-2011, 10:43 PM

first of all if you just want black smoke because it's cool, please never buy a diesel thanks
:cool:

frame off Restoration with cummins swap just doing it cheaply your looking at 6k easy with out me even thinking any more on it

second why do you need such a big lift?

Trx450er94

07-07-2011, 05:58 AM

I want 38.5 boggers with a 10 inch lift its gonna be a daily driver and a I'm gonna try and stay away from the mud but idk if its gonna happen I love to go wheelin and yea diesel for black smoke and the sound that's pretty much why ...

beastlywarrior

07-07-2011, 06:26 AM

my dads got a 72 chevy on 36" wranglers, its pretty sick but i think hes trying to sell it

PaRedneckRiders

07-07-2011, 06:45 AM

Originally posted by wilkin250r
I'm a few years away from this thing being perfect. I'll probably never do a frame-off restoration, I'm only planning on doing a few hundred dollars at at time (with the exception of big-ticket items like engine, tranny, and tires).

I always liked this truck i think i remember seeing it in one of the truck threads that was floating around. If i get my truck one color maybe ill post some pics.
Right now its gray cab and front clip with a gloss black bed.
I think im just gonna sand it down and spray bomb it black or i still have a half gallon of gray may do that again.

PaRedneckRiders

07-07-2011, 06:54 AM

Originally posted by Trx450er94
I want 38.5 boggers with a 10 inch lift its gonna be a daily driver and a I'm gonna try and stay away from the mud but idk if its gonna happen I love to go wheelin and yea diesel for black smoke and the sound that's pretty much why ...

38.5s with 10in lift for a DD is a little overkill.

Ive never ran boggers but heard they wear pretty fast on pavement and are REALLY f-in loud running normal speeds.

Id look for something mayb a little less aggressive.

fastredrider44

07-07-2011, 08:15 AM

These trucks with lift are not good daily drivers. I've owned a bunch of them and I would not want one as a DD that tall. Also, your idea of the Cummins is fine and all, but I would personally rather have a built gas motor in there. Lighter weight and a whole lot less headache.

Trx450er94

07-07-2011, 08:33 AM

My dad has a supercharged dodge 2500 lowered and we have a s10 that runs in the 8's so I just want a lifted truck tired of these little trucks and there is no inspection anymore I think so I won't have to worry about it

Trx450er94

07-07-2011, 08:37 AM

And for the bogger thing ill probably get another set of tires like tsl's

wilkin250r

07-07-2011, 09:43 AM

The reason boggers wear so fast is the construction of the tire, they're a bias-ply tire. They're made to be soft to form over rocks and stuff to get better traction on trails, but that same aspect makes them wear out faster on pavement.

A radial tire will last you significantly longer, on average about twice as long, and Super Swamper makes several styles of radial tires. Unfortunately, one of the best tires for a daily driver (the SSR) is only available in very limited sizes at the moment, and 38.5 isn't one of them. The sub-contractor that actually manufactured them went out of business, and they're working on finding a new one. Hopefully they'll ramp up to full production here in the next year or so.

wilkin250r

07-07-2011, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by PaRedneckRiders
I always liked this truck i think i remember seeing it in one of the truck threads that was floating around. If i get my truck one color maybe ill post some pics.
Right now its gray cab and front clip with a gloss black bed.
I think im just gonna sand it down and spray bomb it black or i still have a half gallon of gray may do that again.

And this truck needs a LOT of work. But I'm willing to do it, because I really like it. I've been wanting one of these since I knew what lifted trucks were.

After seeing this truck up close, I would advise you to just paint your truck with anything you have to make it one solid color (preferably black, it covers up better). My truck is about three different colors underneath. You can see in the picture, the inside of the bed is actually yellow, and the corner of the front bumper isn't a reflection, it's blue overspray. But somebody had painted over the whole thing with a flat black, and it looks WAY better from a distance. Up close, it still looks like crap because it was a crappy job, but you have to be up close to see it. From a distance it looks good, and I would imagine such a crappy job would be real cheap to do.

I would always suggest that anything worth doing is worth doing right. But a quick, cheap paint job will make a project truck look WAY better while you're working on the mechanicals, and it doesn't severely affect the amount of work you need to do when you finally get around to doing it properly.

mineralgrey01gt

07-07-2011, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by Trx450er94
I want 38.5 boggers with a 10 inch lift its gonna be a daily driver and a I'm gonna try and stay away from the mud but idk if its gonna happen I love to go wheelin and yea diesel for black smoke and the sound that's pretty much why ...

Have you ever daily driven a lifted truck with boggers? You will be putting tires on the truck every 5K miles if that much and those tires arent cheap by any means. If the suspension is done wrong, you will have a lot of problems. your going to end up hating that truck one day, watch what im saying. ive been there and done that, not doing it again

PaRedneckRiders

07-08-2011, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by wilkin250r
And this truck needs a LOT of work. But I'm willing to do it, because I really like it. I've been wanting one of these since I knew what lifted trucks were.

After seeing this truck up close, I would advise you to just paint your truck with anything you have to make it one solid color (preferably black, it covers up better). My truck is about three different colors underneath. You can see in the picture, the inside of the bed is actually yellow, and the corner of the front bumper isn't a reflection, it's blue overspray. But somebody had painted over the whole thing with a flat black, and it looks WAY better from a distance. Up close, it still looks like crap because it was a crappy job, but you have to be up close to see it. From a distance it looks good, and I would imagine such a crappy job would be real cheap to do.

I would always suggest that anything worth doing is worth doing right. But a quick, cheap paint job will make a project truck look WAY better while you're working on the mechanicals, and it doesn't severely affect the amount of work you need to do when you finally get around to doing it properly.
Well here it is now but ya im thinking just spray it black and run it for a little while its sorta a beater anyway was gonna be my DD but gave up that idea cause i have my dualsport now.
http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz72/PaRedneckRiders/84%20chevy%20k10/0618111331.jpg
Well its got lights and an exhaust now and is road legal just still looks like this lol.

Its nice to have a lifted truck that looks cool and what not but eventually you will get tired of it to where you just start driving something else and it will sit more and more.
I dont plan on driving mine all the time but i will a few days a week and be out playin in the mud and trails on the weekend just for fun but thats the whole reason i bought this truck. (i did mostly body work and some motor work but was lifted when i bought it)
Im not worried about dents because im sure ill make some more.
And once you put so much money in something if you ever plan on selling it good luck.
Youll never get what you have into it out of it and will probably take a major loss.
Im gonna be in the same boat with mine, i dont have a ton into it but there are some around that look a little nicer but arent as functional for the same price i would need for mine so im just going to run it till i either
1. Blow it up (then prob put a big block in and change some stuff)
Or 2. Break it in half.

wilkin250r

07-08-2011, 08:48 AM

Originally posted by PaRedneckRiders
Its nice to have a lifted truck that looks cool and what not but eventually you will get tired of it to where you just start driving something else and it will sit more and more.

That's part of the reason I don't want to cut any corners in the engine and drivetrain. I've already got an F150 for a daily driver. The little inline 6 gets good gas mileage for a truck, and still has decent enough power to tow a few quads or haul trash to the dump, but it doesn't have any serious towing power.

My Chevy is going to be my big rig. It's 3/4 ton, and I want to go with a big engine for major towing capability, and also just because big engines are cool. Since it's not my daily driver, I'm not concerned about gas mileage. I'm thinking a 700r4 tranny because I like the idea of overdrive, otherwise it will be a TH400. And I already have an NP203 on the truck now, and I like the idea of an extreme low gear (for pulling vehicles through sand, out of mud, or even literally pulling stumps) so I'm going to try to put together a 203/205 doubler.

fastredrider44

07-08-2011, 09:02 AM

I spent a ton of money in my 700R4, but it still didn't hold together. It sucks cause I liked the low first gear of it and the overdrive, since I'm running 4.56 gears on 35s. Currently has the stock NP208 in it. Not sure if the is going to stay or not.

PaRedneckRiders

07-08-2011, 09:25 AM

Thats the only thing i didnt want, i did not want to run an auto.
My buddy has an 86 with the 700r4 and its nice to drive but im just not a fan.

My lil ol 350 is pushing enough power for now with the little work thats done to it plus it runs pretty good and i finally got the carb and timing just about perfect, pretty much instant throttle response and can take it to 6k and could keep going if i didnt let off.

As for the trans, im running an sm465 4spd Not a fast shifting trans but there pretty tough.
And behind that an np208 t-case which i would really like to ditch for an np205.

wilkin250r

07-08-2011, 02:11 PM

Originally posted by fastredrider44
I spent a ton of money in my 700R4, but it still didn't hold together. It sucks cause I liked the low first gear of it and the overdrive, since I'm running 4.56 gears on 35s. Currently has the stock NP208 in it. Not sure if the is going to stay or not.

Who rebuilt your tranny? Did you get a major brand name like TCI or B&M, or did you have a local shop do it?

I've also heard that the 700r4 isn't the strongest tranny, but I've heard plenty of big-name shops say they can rebuild them capable of 700+ horsepower, so I might give it a shot. I really like the idea of both the lower first gear, and also the overdrive. If I can indeed get the overdrive, I'll probably run 5.13 gears, the lower gearing should help alleviate some of the stress on the tranny. If I have to go with a TH400, I'll probably go with 4.88 gears to be able to cruise freeway speeds without screaming 4000 rpms.

wilkin250r

07-08-2011, 02:18 PM

Originally posted by PaRedneckRiders
Thats the only thing i didnt want, i did not want to run an auto.
My buddy has an 86 with the 700r4 and its nice to drive but im just not a fan.

An auto is one of the few things I insist on. I love manual transmissions when it comes to sports cars, but I want an auto for my truck. It makes it much easier to start a heavy trailer, pull somebody out of the mud, or tow a car with a tow strap.

My F150 is a manual (which is fairly rare), and I had an Explorer with a manual transmission (which is EXTREMELY rare), and I certainly prefer manual transmissions for those vehicles because the auto trannies are absolute garbage, especially the Explorer. I've known people that have changed their trannies four times. But that choice was based on the reliability of the transmission, if the playing field was level, I would have preferred auto trannies. I can't tell you how many times I've burnt the clutch on those vehicles trying to gently coax some load into moving. An auto tranny is much easier for that type of work, the torque converter can slip for an hour before you're worried about overheating.

I'm not 100% certain on the 700r4 tranny, but I know the TH400 is almost bulletproof, and so are the NP203 and especially the NP205 transfer cases, so reliablity isn't an issue there.

Like I said, gimme a manual transmission for a sports car. For a truck or tow rig, I'll take an auto any day.

CJM

07-08-2011, 02:37 PM

Good luck finding a manual thats worth it. If you swap the cummins its not easy to find, much easier to find the 727 torqueflight which they SHOULD have kept using into the next generation! Only manual worth it if you do the cummins (or really want a manual and want to swap it) is the New Venture Gear 4500 aka NV4500. Its very strong but harder to come by.

Turbo 400 would be plenty if you kept the chevy 350 in it. Course a 700r4 is also good too.

woodsracer144

07-08-2011, 02:45 PM

not to say you cant do it but unless your going to go to school for diesel i wouldnt get in to swaping a cummins or any diesel in that truck... its ALOT of work..

I have a 86 F350 crew cab from CA ( im in WI) and i've been apart of one swap and so far my cousin has done 3.... and they are not cheap... at all... the motor i have in my truck is a 91 with a VE pump... all because its a little cheaper than the P's I also got the de stroked adaptor plate and run the ford Zf5 trans... and i've already snapped one input shaft... driving it nice ( it was a clutch failure... custom built clutch my a local tractor puller) so after spending 800 on getting a new clutch so it would hold up and buying a new transmission It really was hurting my bank account.

yeah, there cool and its neat but its not for the faint of heart. if you want a diesel go buy one from the factory unless your really good at suckin on the tit and can get alot of money...

If you do the swap i highly suggest to have a built trans from the get go... cause your gonna need it anyways esp. if you put a p pumped 12v in it that has been turned up.

PaRedneckRiders

07-08-2011, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by CJM
Good luck finding a manual thats worth it. If you swap the cummins its not easy to find, much easier to find the 727 torqueflight which they SHOULD have kept using into the next generation! Only manual worth it if you do the cummins (or really want a manual and want to swap it) is the New Venture Gear 4500 aka NV4500. Its very strong but harder to come by.

Turbo 400 would be plenty if you kept the chevy 350 in it. Course a 700r4 is also good too.
Ya i have to say the nv4500 is one of i think the most popular trannys for a swap like this.
Ive seen a lot with both the NV4500(5spd) and NV5600(6spd)
If it were me doing it i would have to take the 4500 over the 5600 any day because of the size and weight difference but if you were planing on towing something the 5600 would prob be the better option because it still has a low first and O/D but the gear ratios are closer than the 4500.

CJM

07-08-2011, 03:53 PM

Problem with such a low first is it makes the gear near unusable. Buddy of mine had an old F450 gasser dump truck with ZF. Im not sure the gear ratio but he cant use first, hes gotta shift after like 10 feet and its pointless.

Id do the NV4500 imho if you want a manual and cummins.

Course if you build the trans right it will hold up to most anything. Problem is you tell them to rebuild it and they might upgrade a few parts and throw in a shift kit-nope thats not whats needed. Whats needed is a full scale rebuild using higher quality parts, worked valve bodies, better planetarys, etc. Course this also costs a ton of money.

tayyo789

07-08-2011, 04:22 PM

I have the 6 speed manual in my Cummins, and I only use first about once a week, towing from a dead stop on a hill. Normal driving, I never use it at all.

fastredrider44

07-11-2011, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by wilkin250r
Who rebuilt your tranny? Did you get a major brand name like TCI or B&M, or did you have a local shop do it?

I've also heard that the 700r4 isn't the strongest tranny, but I've heard plenty of big-name shops say they can rebuild them capable of 700+ horsepower, so I might give it a shot. I really like the idea of both the lower first gear, and also the overdrive. If I can indeed get the overdrive, I'll probably run 5.13 gears, the lower gearing should help alleviate some of the stress on the tranny. If I have to go with a TH400, I'll probably go with 4.88 gears to be able to cruise freeway speeds without screaming 4000 rpms.

Local shop. He is well known around here for building tough transmissions and he told me in my truck and driving the way I do, it wouldn't hold up. He was right.:rolleyes:

wilkin250r

07-11-2011, 04:13 PM

Originally posted by fastredrider44
Local shop. He is well known around here for building tough transmissions and he told me in my truck and driving the way I do, it wouldn't hold up. He was right.:rolleyes:
Can you give me more specifics? What is it about your truck, or your driving style, that caused it?

I'm interested because I'm really leaning towards the 700r4 tranny, I'd really like to make it work. Especially since it will involve custom driveshafts and other mods, I'd hate to go through all that expense just for a guess, an experiment. I'm looking for as much information as I can get.

Trx450er94

07-11-2011, 07:14 PM

Looking at this now gonna paint it orange and put a cummins in it

PaRedneckRiders

07-11-2011, 07:47 PM

Im guessing that is a totally different truck, any info on it??

atvnut22

07-11-2011, 07:49 PM

id leave the green one how it is. maybe a nice set of tires and mild motor work.

Trx450er94

07-11-2011, 08:41 PM

Yea don't know much about it dana 70's and all new body ilike orange and I'm puttin a diesel in it

fastredrider44

07-13-2011, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by wilkin250r
Can you give me more specifics? What is it about your truck, or your driving style, that caused it?

In a nutshell, 35s, stock gears, lots of horsepower and a heavy foot. That was my truck from 14-17 years old, so you can guess how it was driven...:devil: That is not the current project I have.

What he explained to me that killed my transmission so quick was shifting with tires spinning, in mud or roads. :o I drove it hard and i payed dearly for it.

For my current project, I'm rebuilding the same transmission, from the same guy, for a lot less money and a hope that I won't kill it. :blah: I really like the 700, I just hope it holds up this time around.

brian76708

07-13-2011, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by wilkin250r
Can you give me more specifics? What is it about your truck, or your driving style, that caused it?

I'm interested because I'm really leaning towards the 700r4 tranny, I'd really like to make it work. Especially since it will involve custom driveshafts and other mods, I'd hate to go through all that expense just for a guess, an experiment. I'm looking for as much information as I can get.

why not a 4l80e

wilkin250r

07-30-2011, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by brian76708
why not a 4l80e

The 4L80E is a stronger tranny, yes, and it was originally going to be my choice. But it's fully electronically controlled (which isn't the end of the world) while the 700r4 only needs a controller for the lockup torque converter.

But the biggest benefits are the deeper 1st gear ratio, taller overdrive, and it's easier to mount my transfer case combination (NP203/205 doubler) to the 700r4 rather than the 4L80E.

Low-revving engines need wider gear ratios, because you're only going to be dropping a few hundred RPMs with each shift. Although the 700r4 tranny is weaker, it's gear ratios are actually much better suited to a big-block engine than a 4l80E is.