Adjusting Chains!!!!!!!!!!!

[force245]

Please bare with me and endulge me by answering how you all adjust your chains on the mini quads... I have an idea relating to mini problems... so lets see how everyone does this small normal task..

Bare in mind I am not just a race dad, but been racing, riding and working on MX bikes for some time. I do all my own suspension work and have ideas, but might use some smarter engineers here to help correct a problem with minis although it might be a lost cause because it might take re-engineering the frame and mounts too much.

But we will see....

[chunky0071]

Front what I can see the rear engine mount needs to be lowered how much I can not tell ya yet working on that one. But I can tell you that the new designed apex swing arm with the block on the bottom and put a spring tensioner on the top works great ! But I am working on the the rear mount and alignment so that the chain doesn't have tight spots.

[force245]

The way I am seeing it. Its not really the engine mounts. But the swing arm mounting position causing gear breakage problems. As the swingarm moves up in travel the chain gets tighter so when landing on a jump you go from full relax on the chain to ultra tight and binding gears. Leading to breakage. I adjust my chain on the mini as on my bikes. At full chain tension or about level sprocket to sprocket.

This causes a problem on minis because at ride stance the chain is loose, but the honda style guide and long long chain tensioner is helpful. But not exact.

What I have noticed is that even on long travel. The minis do not use all if the shock travel on the hardest hits due to chain tension. This is a problem because it loads the rear end unnecessarily causing severe rebound or the rear end to kick up in situations.

[chunky0071]

Ether way engine mount or swing arm mount the problem is the same the counter sprocket sits to high above the pivot.

[force245]

True. I think that is why everyone that does the shifters return to swinger mounted to the motor at the proper pivot point.

I'm glad others have the same line of thinking. It just sucks that it has not been addressed and taken of.

[EthansDad]

I tried the engine drop kit, don't think its necessary really, I took ours off. the problem is you need extra slack for reasons mentioned, but if you run that slack, you are prone to slip chains.

for us, the answer is two part - 1 run slack, but tension well and 2 - make sure you are aligned left/right on your sprockets!

we remounted a maxrpm chain tensioner to our a-arm such that the tension is applied on the bottom of the chain pushing it into the rear sprocket. anything else is just not the right place to push.

I also had to make sure my rear sprocket lined up and if needed, put 1mm shims behind the sprocket bolts to move it over.

so far, we have full travel and (knock on wood) no thrown chains this year.

-EA

[force245]

awesome pic, Thanks that as they say, is worth a thousand words.

[chunky0071]

Good pic! Ya your right have seen alot of the 2011 apex with the Max RPM tensioner on top of the swing. going to give that a try soon.

[selbygirl]

when i install our chains ther real lose and i make the tenchener real tight i put blocks of wood on the tenchener with the weels off the ground and when i ride the bike i can feel the chain chinkin but im a 100 pounds heaver then my boy if yor chain is to tight it can mess your tranny gears we have bin runnig thAT WAY FOR OVER A YEAR NOW WITH NO PROBLEMS i would use the max rpm tenchener

[force245]

Originally posted by selbygirl
when i install our chains ther real lose and i make the tenchener real tight i put blocks of wood on the tenchener with the weels off the ground and when i ride the bike i can feel the chain chinkin but im a 100 pounds heaver then my boy if yor chain is to tight it can mess your tranny gears we have bin runnig thAT WAY FOR OVER A YEAR NOW WITH NO PROBLEMS i would use the max rpm tenchener

See that is my deal with the tranny gears. The shock from full relax to full tension is the problem. While slipper sprockets and clutches lessen the shock, the chain tension is the real problem, in my opinion.

To adjust my chain, on the mini and on bikes, I use a ratchet strap and bring the swing arm up to full tension on the chain, pretty much where the sprockets are level with each other. Then I adjust from there.

I have been using this method for as long as I can remember and have never had a problem with bikes. Now in minis I recently started with working on them this past season and researching problems before my daughter gets too wild or out of hand on them.. She has already trashed one Predator and now moving into an Apex, but they are all about the same...

[force245]

On a side note, EthansDad, you owe me a new Comp monitor. Thay bug really pisses me off. LOL... I can't tell you how many times I flick it...

[EthansDad]

yup, tension is critical to not breaking. I can get on his 70 or 50 at 225lbs and pin it from a dead stop with no slip or chain pop. my kid also doesn't lift throttle much, even in the air or when landing. he's pretty hard on gears and quads in general. we only run the slipper sprocket and stock setup on tranny gears. have not had a busted tranny gear in a while.

on the long travel, generally chain max tight is at full swing arm extension (like fully uncompressed - quad in air) and max loose is fully compressed.

I adjust the tension with quad on ground such that I get about 1/2 inch of chain play with tensioner not putting tension on the chain. with this mount point of the max rpm tensioner, it will keep constant tension on the chain up to about 3-4inches of slack!!!

with other mounting points of the tensioners, I could only get about 1-2 inches of tension and it was hard to get the chain adjusted in that setup - kept having to get chain over tight. only bummer is you will have to weld a mount point on your swing arm, but after seeing a bunch of kids DNF last year due to thrown chains, I decided it was worth the extra effort.

[nitrofish]

Your bug tried to invade my avatar. No more bug.

[edwardsp&b]

Thats one of the big problems with the Drr type chassis. As Eric can attest I have had major issues in the past with the chain tensioning. After we went to the motowoz long travel setup (the best out there IMO) we had so much travel I couldnt get the chain adjusted right. After using the config that Eric posted a pic of we didnt have any more problems. If you set it up that way it works real well.

Bryan

[fastrnrik]

I have fought with this too. I always ran the tensioner on the bottom and the chain was never "just right", plus it wore into the swingarm, etc. I have just mounted my MAX RPM chain tensioner on top of the swingarm. We haven't ridden it yet, but it seems to work out much better. It was easy, no welding brackets, just had to drill one hole. I can try to post a pic if yall want to see it.

I'm fighting now with rear sprocket alignment. It's like I need to put some shims on the axle to go between the carrier bearing & sprocket hub. It's either that or machine down the hub or sprocket to make it centered. Anyone else have this issue? It never ends LOL

[selbygirl]

we have a stock drr squer tube on one bike and a dc swing arm on the other basically the same our tenchener is bolted under the swing facing the other way then the picture that is posted thats why i use blocks of under it to push it up and tighten up with a impact gun the blocks seem to hold it more square then the strap trick the strap wants to make it twist

[gdr8]

Originally posted by fastrnrik
I have fought with this too. I always ran the tensioner on the bottom and the chain was never "just right", plus it wore into the swingarm, etc. I have just mounted my MAX RPM chain tensioner on top of the swingarm. We haven't ridden it yet, but it seems to work out much better. It was easy, no welding brackets, just had to drill one hole. I can try to post a pic if yall want to see it.

I'm fighting now with rear sprocket alignment. It's like I need to put some shims on the axle to go between the carrier bearing & sprocket hub. It's either that or machine down the hub or sprocket to make it centered. Anyone else have this issue? It never ends LOL

I would love to see a picture...

[selbygirl]

ours was hitting the swing arm also i reveresd the pully on the tenchener and cut the shaft down smaller wher it clears the swing arm if its a apex swing arm check for cracks on the bottom part of swing arm i had a freind had the same problem it wouldin line up the swing arm was twisted and cracked check yor frame also and check your front motor mounts some times they come lose and that will tweek out of aliment

[edwardsp&b]

Hey fastnrick,
Now you are into a big problem i had. I had the same probs your talking about with sprocket alignment. On mine it turned out that my frame was twisted. The famous breaks that occur around the swinger bolt was where ours twisted. I used to own a paint and body shop that specialized in frame repair. After multiple times pulling our frame I gave up and swithched frames. I love these little minis for starting out racing quads, but they werent built for the abuse we are giving them. It kept throwing chains and cost Ben a few motos at nats last year.
Bryan

[fastrnrik]

I have always ran the tensioner on the bottom, mounted on the back hole pushing up. Not sure why I ran it like that. I probably saw everyone else running it like that and just assumed it was "right". I cut the roller shaft off so it would clear the swingarm. This kept the chain tight, but it actually pushed it up into the swingarm causing it to wear more. This discussion actually got me thinking about it, so my dad & I went out today and started examining it.
I thought of the frame being twisted. I looked over the bike and the motor mounts look straight, no cracks in frame, etc, but honestly it would only have to be tweaked a little, probably not even enough to notice by looking at it, to affect chain alignment. These bikes take such a beating who knows where all the little "tweaks" are? We haven't had any chain throwing issues, but in my mind, if the chain is running off center enough to wear the sprocket funny, then that's got to be a substantial amount of drag and we all know drag robs horsepower. It's hard enough to keep these things running tip top without additional drag slowin em down LOL. The funny part is the tranny in this bike has gotten NOISY! I took it out and it looks perfectly fine, bearings good, etc, but it is freakin noisy enough that I ordered a new one today. I cant help but to think if the chain is running off center and pulling on the output shaft, it could actually be wearing the tranny gears funny, enough to make them noisy. WTF! LOL
Im going to dig deeper into it this weekend and see whats what. I may loosen up the motor and shim it around to see what happens. If not I'll just turn down the sprocket hub or shim it out to get things back in line.
I will take some pictures tomorrow of how we mounted the tensioner

[selbygirl]

years ago one off our bikes made a clicking sound in the tranny took it apart every thing looked fine put it back together same clicking sound took it back out turned it by hand ther was a stiff spot the gear the sprocket goes on was was bent couldent pick it up by looking at it check the frame wer the swing arm bolt goes threw we always throw a gusset there thats a weak spot for drr most likely if the paint is chipping off theres a crack even a hair line crack it going to make it flex funny thing about these minis ive owned cars trucks bikes quads boats tractors ive replaced 2 or 3 things on each in there live time but i have replaced every thing on these minis in about a year or two these things are like a drug need to start going to m.q.a. meetings take care tommy

[fastrnrik]

haha yeah its a constant battle on these things. Always something.
Here's some pictures of the chain tensioner mounted on top. It's not done & adjusted correctly yet, but this will give you an idea.
http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy196/pookiepickle/misc%20mini%20quad/IMG_1904.jpg
http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy196/pookiepickle/misc%20mini%20quad/IMG_1903.jpg
http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy196/pookiepickle/misc%20mini%20quad/IMG_1908.jpg

[fastrnrik]

Sorry for the GIANT pictures LOL. I'm not too good with photobucket.
You see I drilled a hole in the top about in line with the bottom threaded hole. I was thinking you could also just enlarge the hole on the tensioner bracket and mount it on the top carrier bolt. This would put the tensioner closer to the rear sprocket which would probably be better. I also had to shim it away from the swing arm a little so the pivot bolt would clear the chain. It seems like a good setup- it keeps the chain from rubbing on the bottom and nothing hits the tensioner when compressed. Once I get the sprockets lined back up we'll take it out & ride it to see if it works good.

[edwardsp&b]

Same way my problem started. I first noticed the sprocket wear and then I broke out a tape measure. It only takes a little twist in the frame up there to equal an inch or so at the sprocket. And I dont have to tell you that an inch or so will throw it off alot.
Bryan

[fastrnrik]

Well, it turns out the sprocket issue was due to the swingarm bolt being loose. Not much, but enough that when snugged down it lined everything back up. I guess I should've kept a better eye on that....
And the noisy tranny, well I think a large part of my noise is actually from a bad bearing in the clutch cover. I ordered a hundred dollar tranny to fix a two dollar bearings noise LOL Oh well everyone needs spare tranny gears LOL

Did I mention I hate mini quads? LOL

[selbygirl]

bump

[tyler70t]

Anyone running one on top & one on bottom?

[force245]

So to follow up and to keep this thread alive.. Trying to help all the other racing dads and moms with some breakage troubles..

I went and started messing with my tensioner.. I found the best methiond of placement is similar to Ethan's dad, I think. mounted on the bottom, with the tensioner putting pressure on the bottom of the chain.

I placed mine closer to the rear sprocket, which does limit my swaping rear sprcket sizes, but I stuck with what is most common for me. But having the tensioner that close serves also as a chain guide as well to prevent any running off of the chain.

As for adjusting chains... This is how I do it and with some helpful tips... One, go buy a new chain and a new tensioner. More than likely you are not adjusted right and binding at half to 3/4 stoke in the rear and not utilizing full travel, thus leading to breaking parts and wasting money.

With your current set up, take a ratchet strap and cinch it to the housing and rear grab bar. Now start cinching down on the strap and watch your chain tension. Take the swing arm to full arc if you can. Don't take it if your chain starts to bind. You will break something. Now if you can make to full arc and still have slack taken up in your chain, you should be ok. Most out there won't.

So what to do. Leave it at full arc. Full arc is usually when your front and rear sprockets are level.

Remove your current chain and tensioner. Adjust your rear housing to full slack or decently close to full loose. Some of you might be wondering about rear end action, wheel base, ride height and such with the housing at full loose. But please, patience..

Now at full arc, without cutting your new chain, fit it up and find a good liveable area to have your chain fitted with just a touch of slack. This is where bringing the housing in helps. Because you now can pull it back to get your precise tension at full arc.

So when you have found the chain length and you have measured and cut to size for fitment at full arc. put it on. I would recommend that you get ready to place your tensioner on the bottom with upward pressure but to each his own. There are goods and bads, depending on where and what you race.

But before placing your tensioner on, watch what happens when you loose the ratchet strap. Holy crap you say that will never work.. Look how much slack is in the chain. DO NOT ADJUST YOUR HOUSING> that is what the tentioner is for. Now fit your tensioner on the bottom. Pushing up on the chain and near as possible to the rear sprocket to aid as a guide. If you have a chain guide, take it off and chunk it. USE A CHAIN TENSIONER>>>

So now why am I so adamant on the tensioner on the bottom. Well, I'm glad you asked... LOL. Being a suspension guy it only makes sense to have it on the slack side of the chain versus the pull side of the chain. Having the tensioner on the pull side puts a false tension on the chain and works the tensioner under heavy throttle conditions, leaving the bottom to slack a bunch with a risk of chain jump.

I'll get some pics of the set up soon, as it is just bolted on instead of tab welded. But it will be welded on soon. I'll also tryu to get some vids or pics posted of the chain action with my daughter jumping.

Use this set up and then push down on the bike, much more plush and more travel. Get ready, smile. No more chain binding. No more breakage. You can even have the kiddos get on the gas before landing on a decent track that is not too sticky. IE: faster lap times and easier landings.

sorry for any grammar or spelling mistakes; its midnight, I'm at work typing fast.