A 440 build?

[NMills]

Well... My wheeler is starting to smoke.... so i figure i must be gettin ready to do a rebuild... which is fine... it's a 2004 runnin with the original top end... I want to do a 440... but am afriad of losing my reliability... i don't mind going to a 426/416 or the such... but am curious what methods work best for a 440 for reliability??? or should i jsut do a 426 or a 416?

[Thumpin]

I'd go with the JE piston with either the 406 for 10.6:1 CR or the 416 for 10.8:1 CR. And EX gaskets to keep the compression actually what JE advertises. Using XR gaskets will jump the compression .2 points. Thats great if your looking for the most compression you can get, but compression builds heat, and so does the more you bore out your engine.

If your heart is set on a 440 expect to pay more for a larger oil cooler with a fan, head studs, and be ready to mix race gas with your pump gas to keep away detenation!

The small bores rev faster, and the bigger bores grunt more lowend torque. The 426 is a best of both worlds from the sounds of it, but its the last bore on a stock sleeve. And Im guessing it will kick out some heat also.

The 416 seems to be the ticket for a good reliable and strong EX. Hope this helps you and there is lots of good people here to learn from, just like I have!

What kind of riding do you do?

[HondaRacing83]

I've seen so many beat to hell 440's on craigslist. People put a 440 kit and dont do HD studs or crf timing chain or nothing. Its like a ticking time bomb. Most people with a 440 dont exactly have stock suspension either, or stock a-arms. Its always better to do handling before power. Because whats power if you can't handle it? I'm fairly certain you do trail riding judging by your signature. I think I'd go with a 416 or 426. Your gonna have a lot more money involved in a 440. Plus a 440 isn't really trail friendly in my opinion. 426/416 are lower compression so less heat and less problems. 440's arent that reliable either unless you set them up right. Which is gonna be of course more money. One thing that bothers the hell outta me is when people put Like mud lites or swamp lites, etc. on a sport quad. i understand if you trail ride but its a sport quad. if you get in some mud id throw some ******* razr 2's or holeshot gncc's. mudlites and stuff are for utility's, not sports.

[HondaRacing83]

Also i'd suggest in some type of better than stock suspension.

[NMills]

Thanks for the knowledge... it'll help... I'm waiting on several reponses as later i'll average the opinions out... i just figured if i was gonna bore it... go big or go home... but i'd probably be happy with a stock bore as i'm not too agressive... tho i love power on demand... I personally like trails.... and fast too... but i seemed to sucked into a lot of pit ridin... not a huge fan of hill climbs... tho i enjoy others watching doin em...

[NMills]

Gonna pick on my choice of tires??? i needed somthin better then bald and i needed bigger at the places i was ridin in... had rocks and stumps everywhere... and I'm sorry... at the time i needed tires... i did not have the money for hole shots... but i've gotten used to them and i think they are fine... they grab when i want them to... and it give my wheeler character... but this was a engine thread... did not think tires were part of the issue..... i've put 450 shocks on my wheeler so theres an improvment... tires and suspension is a different subject... i was more concerned with a bore and a rebuild... but either way... i appreciate your opinions...

[HondaRacing83]

If your budget is a little bit willing this is exactly what I'd do.
416 kit.
450r shocks. Get them revalved.
HotCam
+3 timing key from Wheelie.
It'd be a pretty badass trail machine after that.
While you've got the motor apart put in a CRF timing chain to. Talk to CJM for a further in dept tutorial on 416's in such.
Go big or go home isnt really the answer for everything. I knew a kid that spent all this money throwing a 440 in his quad and didnt do HD studs and ran regular octane fuel and it blew the first ride. I told him what to do but he's kinda the cocky "i know everything" kinda deal.

[HondaRacing83]

Originally posted by NMills
Gonna pick on my choice of tires??? i needed somthin better then bald and i needed bigger at the places i was ridin in... had rocks and stumps everywhere... and I'm sorry... at the time i needed tires... i did not have the money for hole shots... but i've gotten used to them and i think they are fine... they grab when i want them to... and it give my wheeler character... but this was a engine thread... did not think tires were part of the issue..... i've put 450 shocks on my wheeler so theres an improvment... tires and suspension is a different subject... i was more concerned with a bore and a rebuild... but either way... i appreciate your opinions... Sorry when i did my last post i didnt see this one. And sorry again; it just irks me. I think it makes sport quads loose character.

[finsteratv]

if you're just trail riding i'd do a nice little 416 with a good cam and exhaust set up to match. you have 450r shocks and arent racing around then i'd leave them how they are. maybe a 416 10:1 or 10.8:1 to keep your heat down, maybe a 450r carb for a little more umphhh. crf timing chain, sparks x2 cam, stage 1 HC probably wouldnt match up with the biston as well. AND as far as tires...if it works for what you do all power to ya. different tires for different applications, and thats what you need :macho

[NMills]

Originally posted by HondaRacing83
Sorry when i did my last post i didnt see this one. And sorry again; it just irks me. I think it makes sport quads loose character.

Just remember... everyone has thier own opinions.... yours are right... mines right... everyones entitled to it... not wrong or right.. just... different...

[JOHNDOE83]

For the record.

440s are VERY reliable.

You do not need studs.

you dont need a bigger oil cooler.

you dont need a hd timing chain.

you dont need to mix any gas.

My 440 revs out so fast theres no in between, it almost runs like a 2 stroke with the power band. I have video to prove it.

my 440 is 6 years old now, gets drag raced to hell, runs regular car motor oil in it, never had a heat issue, never streched any studs, never broke a timing chain.

[CJM]

^ But the big question is just how hot does it get when its only run for maybe 10 mins at a time and then at higher speeds for less than 10 seconds?

I dont doubt you John, but the issue imho with the 440 is it creates to much heat that the casual trail rider cannot do much about except try and make cooler using a larger tank, oil cooler and fan. Hell, my 416 11:1 heats up quite good during the 90F+ summer days.

[JOHNDOE83]

My 440 is six years old, only been a drag quad for two of those years and the motor hasnt changed other then a 450r carb.

Its had many a long trail miles on it prior to the drag transition.

I know people are just being careful but maybe you just have to own one to understand.

Alot of people think a 180 jet is to big for their 440, those are the guys having heat issues imho.

I Think there should be a engine temps thread? we could all get heat readings on different motors with different fuels and see what cooling mods work best.

I think that would be interesting and helpful!!!

[limetimeracerII]

I agree with JOHNDOE83, I raced a 440 for many years and never had one problem with it. Raced gncc and local series. No headstuds, stock oil cooler and tank, and no race gas (11:1 comp). I did run 93 octane. I did have a crf cam chain but only cause mine was wore out so I said why not. Quality build and good maintaince is what counts:macho

[CJM]

I think then the main issue is people dont jet them properly, running them lean, creating heat and blowing them-make sense?

[NMills]

Originally posted by Thumpin
lowend torque. The 426 is a best of both worlds from the sounds of it, but its the last bore on a stock sleeve. And Im guessing it will kick out some heat also.



Last bore on the stock sleeve??? wouldn't i have to change the sleeve anways?

[hocman123]

no u only need to change the the sleeve if u go to a 440 because it will have thicker walls then the stock one but u can put up to a 426 in the stock sleeve with no problems

[NMills]

Originally posted by hocman123
no u only need to change the the sleeve if u go to a 440 because it will have thicker walls then the stock one but u can put up to a 426 in the stock sleeve with no problems

Does it still need to be bored out? or just get the piston and rings and that's it?

[finsteratv]

bore job is needed to fit the larger piston. when you get the bore job done take your piston also so they can match the piston to the cylinder.

[hocman123]

well when u order 440 kits they come with new sleeves most of the time depending on who u oreder it from all u need to do is put the sleeve in and go. But some come so u still need to do a finish bore and hone job before u install it. u would just need to ask sellers how theres is and allways double check just to make sure it is the right bore

[finsteratv]

my bad i thought he was talking about boring the original cyinder. but yes 440's require a resleeve

[JOHNDOE83]

Actually for $400 there are complete 440 kits with new sleeved cylinders just bolt on and go, they are on ebay!!

[trxPOWER]

yes, and i have one!! it seems to run really good. it came with a 11 to 1 cast piston, jug already honed, and xr 400 gaskets. Seems to be a good value!

[bobizzle]

ok, 440 kits are reliable, but it just depends on how you set them up. i bought a parts bike from a guy who had a 440, and cracked the sleeve, scored the piston to ****, and fried the rod and whole valve train.

the way he did it was the cheap way out. the way i went about fixing it and building a hell of a bike is... he had the 440 big bore, sleeve is thin as paper and cracks. took the sleeeve and re sleeved it to 416 kit. i went ahead and stroked it. this made it a 440, it has a nice thick sleeve and is able to cool down quicker. i also used xr400 head gasket, it allows for more compression. went with titanium valves and springs. inserted the head with new inserts to hold the head down.

just remember, 416 stroked is 440. and 426 stroked is 460. i did this so i will end up at 460 for my last bore.

hope this helps.

i will try to see if i have some pictures of what it looked like when it went, but i think i deleted them. i was disgusted with how poor the job was done.

[thebig450es]

Where instead of boring my sleeve thin, i went with the gt thunder stroker, +2mm bore and +7 mm on the stroke. Jet it right and keep the heat down.

[JOHNDOE83]

Originally posted by bobizzle
ok, 440 kits are reliable, but it just depends on how you set them up. i bought a parts bike from a guy who had a 440, and cracked the sleeve, scored the piston to ****, and fried the rod and whole valve train.

the way he did it was the cheap way out. the way i went about fixing it and building a hell of a bike is... he had the 440 big bore, sleeve is thin as paper and cracks. took the sleeeve and re sleeved it to 416 kit. i went ahead and stroked it. this made it a 440, it has a nice thick sleeve and is able to cool down quicker. i also used xr400 head gasket, it allows for more compression. went with titanium valves and springs. inserted the head with new inserts to hold the head down.

just remember, 416 stroked is 440. and 426 stroked is 460. i did this so i will end up at 460 for my last bore.

hope this helps.

i will try to see if i have some pictures of what it looked like when it went, but i think i deleted them. i was disgusted with how poor the job was done.

I think a 440 stroked is a 460 and a 426 storked is a 440???

I may be wrong, sorry if I am....lol.

[bobizzle]

i think you may be wrong. i am building a 416 for a friend and i told him to stroke it so it will be a 440, he insisted it wouldnt, but when he called our local friend/builder, he said it would be the 440.

also, i have the eddlebrock carb that came off of an old 440 of mine, ran 3 hrs. good carb and helps thew big bore breath. if you interested in it pm me.

[trxPOWER]

A 416 bore with a +4 stroke is a 440, and a 440 bore with a +4 stroke is a 460.

[NMills]

Well... after price shopping.... i think i'm gonna do a 426.. 440s seem nice... just expensive....

but my next question is this... what do i need to do to my jetting??

My setup now is a 450r carb with a 50 pilot 165 main 3 clip and about 3.25 turns out on the air screw...

I also have a 400ex carb with a stock pilot 170 main(rich) and i don't remember the needle or air screw..

[muddy maki]

when I bought my 440 it was one of those junk craiglist adds mentoned. it had a bad nock and it smoked when you cold started it. it was a good deal and I figure I would beat the piss out of it for as long as it would hold togeather that season, and re build it that winter. it made it the hole season and I dident have an issue till my trip to the dunes. I raged on it as hard as I could for that week at the dunes till my valve lash cover orings began to leak then I put it away wet. when I finaly tore it down I found a cracked sleve and the rings and piston were trash. it wasn't untill I cleand the clynder up realy good that I realized it was a stock clynder whitch had been bored to a 440! no wonder it dident last.

now Im corecting that with the proper parts, and alot of other parts to make the 440 flow better. to cover the heat and reliability issue the oversized oil tank and larger cooler with scoops and fan are a must for any 400ex IMO. oil is part of the cooling process in the ex and extreme heat breaks down oils lubrication and detergent abillities.

I'm not trying to say 440 isn't reliable, I'm saying any mod can cause damage if you don't do it properly.

oh and even with the sleve cracked and rings worn on a stock cam and exhaust this bike was still fast.

440 is great IMO.

[bobizzle]

man i will be honest, i don't know what jet size you will need off hand, due to me using that eddlebrock. it has 3 jets, bottom, mid and top. i know you will have to go bigger on top due to pulling more air, one or two sizes probably. pilot might stay the same or go up one. cant get in touch with my friend about what size he used for the same app.

[JOHNDOE83]

Hey bobizzle do you have any pics of that stretched 86 250r?

I would REALLY like to see it!!

[bobizzle]

right side view. blue case needs to go, but i am in the process of powder coating it. did the stator cover. looks great. didnt put it on before picture was taken.

[bobizzle]

left side view

[JOHNDOE83]

That is a sweet 250r!!!!

[bobizzle]

thanks, got a few more things to do to it. need to rebuild the front forks. and change a few things. probuably gunna drop the motor and put a esr330. gota a cylinder and piston. ported for all out drag. make it a dunes bike. something you dont see everyday.

Originally posted by bobizzle
left side view




that **** looks like way too much fun.makes me want one of those robocop bear fighting type suits.love those 3 inch footpegs.nice job bro

[dariusld]

Originally posted by NMills
Well... after price shopping.... i think i'm gonna do a 426.. 440s seem nice... just expensive....

but my next question is this... what do i need to do to my jetting??

My setup now is a 450r carb with a 50 pilot 165 main 3 clip and about 3.25 turns out on the air screw...

I also have a 400ex carb with a stock pilot 170 main(rich) and i don't remember the needle or air screw..

I'm sorry, I read the whole thread, what bore are you on now? I wouldn't go straight to a 426 if I could go smaller.

People are going to argue my next two points.A 426 is going to overheat before a 416 will. You will get almost the same power from a 426 and a 416.

[bobizzle]

dariusld is right about a 426 heating up before a 416. i don't know about overheating. more or less depends on riding style. for track and sand i would definitely agree. now for trails it wont be so bad due to twists and turns and not putting the power to the ground continuously.

now for the power difference. it wont be a drastic change. but it will be more bottom end. the bigger you go the more bottom. it would almost be like putting on a pipe and filter. you may notice some, but not like omg wtf this things pulling my arms off.