Suspension question

[JoePA]

I finally got the R back on it's wheels. I have new works shocks all around, new burgard +3 arms and a Laeger 88-89 length swinger, new bushings and bearing everywhere.

My question is when i put everything back together and put her back on the ground none of the shocks really compressed? I have the front shocks with ZERO preload and the rear shock has about 3 turns of preload on the spring. When sitting ont he quad I have 9" from te ground to the bottom of the frame rail!!!

The only thing not on the quad is gas tank and plastics. I had the shocks set up for MX and 205lb full gear rider...I'm about 185 in street clothes. I still don't think the quad should sit that high. Do I need to ride it a bit to have everythign settle in? Gonna give works a call tomorrow and see what they say. Anyone got any ideas?


Thanks
Joe

[socal]

Not sure what you mean on the fronts?Are they a zero preload setup like the PEPs?Are they long travel?With long travel,you should have a few inches of sag.Get on the quad,jump up and down a few times,let it settle,get off and measure.If its a standard travel setup,most likely the front will have little sag,if any.Post pics!

[JoePA]

The fronts are standard travel shocks. they may be a zero preload setup specially the way they are sitting. I did jump up and down on the quad and it did settle some but not much. I'm still at a loss. I'll get pics up tomorrow.

thanks!

[hartwill]

Joe, works never made a ZPS shock. If you google pep zps you will see a very small almost slinky like spring at the top. It actually doesnt do anything at normal ride height with just the weight of the quad the spring is fully compressed. All it does is keep preesure on the main springs when the wheels drop down into a hole or on jumps. when you say zero pre load do you mean your clip position for the spring is all the way at the top? something is not right if you have no sag.

[dustin_j]

I think he means he doesn't have any preload on the front springs, which works great when the correct spring rates are used. When you jump up and down, do the shocks compress but feel stiff? It could be the spring rates are too stiff for you, the extended lengths on the shocks could be wrong (too long), or your a-arm bushings/bearings are dragging.

[JoePA]

First off...thank you for the replies! Here is where I was at. My race stance was high...really high! With the quad just sitting on the ground my measurement was aroud 10" to the bottom of the frame. This was no preload ont he front springs and 3 turns preload on the rear spring.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t182/1BAD400/Photo05042240.jpg

Somethign didn't seem right so I set the quad on the ground and loosened all the A-arm bolts and shock bolts. I jumped up and down ont he front of the quad as well as the pegs. Retightened everythging. I jacked the quad in the air and I took a turn out of the rear spring preload and tweaked the adjustable rear link.

On the front spring I noticed this "shim" under the bottom of the springs and I don't remember that before I sent it to works and I didn't have them on my TCS shocks so I removed them. I adjusted the front springs to have about 2 turns of preload on them and set the quad down. Did my routine and gettingit to settle and all my measurements came out right! Only ting is I'm about 8 1/2" fromt he floor to the bottom of my frame. That's the best I could get but everythign else works out fine.

Anyone have an idea why these "shims" or spacer were used?

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t182/1BAD400/Photo05042313.jpg

[dustin_j]

Are you saying those shims were under the main springs, or behind a tender spring? Can you take a picture of your shocks and your linkage setup for reference? What linkage and tire sizes are you using? Can someone measure frame height with you standing on the pegs? Right by the footpeg and at the front behind the start of the rake. Also, can you remove preload from the front springs again, and have someone measure the length of your front main spring with you standing on the pegs?

If you jack up the quad, how high is the frame from the ground when the front and rear tires just lift off the ground? They might not lift at the same time. Sorry, it takes some details to know exactly what's going on.

[Lasher]

I know with my 89 frame and TCS shocks, I could never get to 7 inches. I ran out of letting out the pre-load on the rear all the way was as close as I could get. I think 7 1/2 to 8 inches, hard to remember.

I noticed the 10 inches measurement, with no one on the quad. You need a person as you same weight on the quad to take a ride height measurement. Not sure what mine was with out any weight, but I could see 2-3 inches drop with your weight on there.

Sorry, no clue on those spacers or the adjustable linkage and how that would impact you.

[hartwill]

Joe on my 250r I used an 86 dogbone to get low enough in the back. In the front you might be able to take one of the spacer out of the top tender springs that could give you the extra little bit you need some people might frown on doing these things but it will lower your ride height. Also what size tires do you have on there?

[JoePA]

Dustin,
Those were from under the main spring. Why it made a difference ....I don't know as no preload on the spring, with or without spacer, is no preload???

The measurement with me on the quad, just under the footpeg is 8 1/2" Just behind the the lower A-arm I'm at 9" My tires are 18" rears and 20" fronts. Rear linkage is stock 86 but I'm using an adjustable dogbone/linkage set to the stockers length.

I'll get more pics and measurements tonight. The suspension feels fine as far as rates. When you jack the quad up all 4 tires come off the ground at the same time. Everything seems right but the race stance is what has me stumped? With the previous suspension I was closer to 7" and the quad handled liek i was on rails. Not sure how it's going to be with this setup

[sameltoe]

If by chance you take off the shocks again, for ****s and grins would you take a frame height measurement?

[RyanWsly]

Take the pre-load off the rear spring and see if that helps, it should lower it some. are you sure your front shocks are the correct length? if they are most likely you are too stiff on the spring rate.

Sam what measurement are you wanting exactly? are you trying to find your travel?

[sameltoe]

Sorry to hijack joePA...
I'm just looking to see what others actually have for a compressed height... For personal amusement.
seems like I got several differences. Mine 2 5/8, D bergstrom was around 3 also...Sorry if I spelled wrong D!

[dustin_j]

Originally posted by JoePA
Dustin,
Those were from under the main spring. Why it made a difference ....I don't know as no preload on the spring, with or without spacer, is no preload???

The measurement with me on the quad, just under the footpeg is 8 1/2" Just behind the the lower A-arm I'm at 9" My tires are 18" rears and 20" fronts. Rear linkage is stock 86 but I'm using an adjustable dogbone/linkage set to the stockers length.

I'll get more pics and measurements tonight. The suspension feels fine as far as rates. When you jack the quad up all 4 tires come off the ground at the same time. Everything seems right but the race stance is what has me stumped? With the previous suspension I was closer to 7" and the quad handled liek i was on rails. Not sure how it's going to be with this setup

You are correct about the preload. As long as the spring seats correctly, you're right you can remove them. What height is the frame at when you jack it up and all 4 tires just come off the ground? If your extended height is too high, you'll have trouble getting your desired ride height. This is why GT Thunder recommends setting sag first, then front ride height based on rear height. What is your race sag?

To find race sag, measure from top of axle to a point on the subframe (vertical) when the wheels are off the ground. Stand on the pegs and have someone measure from top of axle to the same point. The difference between the two measurements is your race sag; should be 4-5 inches.

[JoePA]

My race sag is right at 4" I'll have to measure what the height is with the tirs just off the ground. All the measurements come out right it seems as though the 8 1/2" just below the footpegs is about an 1" or so too high?

[D Bergstrom]

Sounds to me like the springs are a little two stiff. Before you mess with it to much, I would get the quad fully back together and then measure the heights with you fully geared up and on it. Figure all your plastics and gear could be another 20 to 30 pounds.

Do you know what spring rates are on it now? Just for comparison, I am currently running a 325 lb/in spring on the rear, not sure on the fronts. Rear is a stock 86 swingarm and linkage. I am 230 with out gear.

Another thing you can do is also put a piece of cardboard under each front tire. Since the front will get wider as it compresses, the tires will kind of "stick" to the surface you are on, not allowing the quad to fully settle.When you first get on the quad, bounce on the pegs a little to settle the suspension, sit on the seat where you would normally ride, then measure.

Doug

[dustin_j]

I agree with Mr. Bergstrom. Put everything on your quad, fuel it up, and measure with your gear on. Also, while you are standing on the pegs, have someone measure the length of your front main spring. Should be 7-7 1/8" long. If yours measures longer while on the pegs, it means the spring rate is too high. Also, take the preload off your rear spring if you haven't yet, and see if that lowers your rear ride height enough. You could keep running your preload adjuster up to see if you can get the desired ride height with negative preload (this is what a PEP ZPS spring does), but I wouldn't ride it that way.

I think your top out height is slightly higher than some suggest, so you'll probably want more sag to account for it. However, it would be a good idea to check your frame height when shocks are fully compressed (metal to metal bottom out). If the frame is high when bottomed out, you might not be able to run the low ride height you'd like.

[JoePA]

With the quad jacked up and just as all the tires coem off the ground the measurement from floor to botoom of frame is 11 1/2"

I'm almost at a loss here. I know the front springs are right, well I sure hope so, as I went back and forth with Works on getting them set up properly. We took measurements and a few other things to come up with what I have now.

The rear shock was new/used and setup for a 180lb rider so I "assume" the rear spring is right.

I'll remove all the shocks and see how low she can go. I'll also post a pic of my rear suspension and linkage. Can i cheat and just adjust the dogbone/linkage to get my proper height?

[dustin_j]

To some extent you can adjust the rear dogbone to help with ride height. HOWEVER, you will change your frame height at top out and bottom out as well. This is the risk with an adjustable link, as most people adjust for ride height and then ride. Then their frame bottoms out and they wonder why.

The only answers are that your spring rates are too stiff, or your suspension is binding somewhere and not allowing travel. Your front main spring should be compressed to 7" with you standing on the pegs.

Was the used rear shock you got setup for a 180 pound rider with the SAME setup you have now? The suspension geometry is a bigger driver in shock setup than just rider weight.

Do you know what rate front springs you have (all 3)? Most of the Works tender springs I've seen were around 350 lb/in (for both tenders). Also, check to make sure your tender springs aren't crossed out (check crossover gap). Do you know your a-arm leverage ratio? LR = wheel travel / shock travel. Or do you want to post the measurements you sent to Works?

Hopefully this is helping.

[JoePA]

Dustin,
I got some more info and measurements for you. With me sitting on the quad full gear ready to go, the front main spring is right at 7" I am unsure of what weight springs works used but i will find out.

As far as what i discussed with Works is....the first measurement they wanted way how wide are the arms....the actual width and they ended up being 2.5" wider than stock. Also they wanted to know how far out the shock mount on the lower arm is to the center of the mounting hole which, if I remember correctly was 7 1/4" It ended up being the same length as a stock arm. he said some manufactures cheat here and move the lower mount out some to make up for the wider arms??

The rear shock was on an 88 with all stock linkage...so the seller said. I'm currently running a Laeger swinger that is the 88-89 length and stock 86 linkage. From my understanding it's built to use the 86 R and use stock linkage.

I installed the stock 86 rear shock and I get the same measurements as the Works shock for the frame height.....8 1/4 from frame to floor just in front of the foot peg and 8 1/2 just behind teh front A-arm. This is a more accurate measurement as my brother was helping me.

I removed all the shocks and kept the reak linkage connected. I put the R on the ground and from the floor to the frame, just in front of the foot peg I get 2" and just behind the A-arm I get 3"

I checked the swingarm with linkage installed and no shock and it moves freely with nothing binding...same with the front a arms. All my measurements seem to be right except for the race stance. Maybe just run it a bit an see if she settles in?

Sorry about the long reply but wanted to make sure I'm covering all my bases. Do you want a pic of teh rear shock, linkage swinger setup?

[dustin_j]

Joe,
I think your rear spring rate is too stiff; have you tried it with no preload? Otherwise, if you can determine what rate it is, you can get one rate softer (probably 25 lb/in softer). This should bring your rear down quite a bit. When you tried the stock shock, was there any preload on that spring?

If you'd like another test to try, move the preload adjuster up on your rear shock so there's a gap when extended (negative preload). If you can do this to set the rear ride height where you want, check to see where the front is at. To some extent if your rear setup is too stiff, it can hold up the front, even though it's correct.

Your front main springs seem correct. I question your tender springs; will Works give you the spring rates? Are you sure neither of the tenders are crossed out with you on the pegs? Your top one should be just about to touch, and your middle one should have around 3/8" gap (can be adjusted for plushness/cornering).

Are you measuring vertical when measuring race sag? Race sag measurement should match frame sag pretty closely. If you have 11.5" frame extended height, and 8.5" ride height, it points towards 3" race sag, not 4." The axle travel follows an arc, so if you measure at an angle, the measurement can be off.

Hopefully all the measurements and discussion are helping your setup and understanding. There's a lot more to suspension than just buying shocks and slapping them on, and props to you for actually taking measurements :D

[Lasher]

That is the problem I had with my 89 frame, 89 length Laeger swingarm, 89 linkage and TCS shock.

I could not get the rear frame height low enough without going into negative pre-load (like that term ;) ) so I settle to low as I could go with basically no pre-load, just touching the spring.

[JoePA]

I called Works today and spoke to Sandy. We had a long discussion and everything he said came out right for my frotn shocks...SO I believe my fronts are OK but the big ?? was the rear shock.

After talking to him he says they make a 285lb rear spring a 325lb spring and one heavier but can't remember what it was but 375??? Anyway he says the 285 is the stock weight rear spring for the R on the Works shock. From what info he gave me I believe I have a 325lb weight rear spring. I didn't try a "zero" preload setup yet but I will. I'm going to call and order up a 285lb spring and go from there. What are your thoughts on that decision?

As far as the stock rear shock i had 3 turns of preload on the spring when testing to get an idea. I'm sure if I took a turn or two out it would have dropped to where I believe I need to be. I'll remeasure my race sag to double check but i tooka measurement from the top of the axle to a point on the frame then did the same thing while sitting on the quad to those same points.

it's looking more and more like the rear spring rate is off, as you guys have mentioned and need to readjust accordingly.

an interesting tid bit of info i got fom Sandy was the difference between the 86-87 setup and the 88-89 setup. He says that the stock rate spring on the 86-87 was 285lb and the 88-89 was closer to a 265lb. With me running the shorter swingarm and the 325lb rear spring it would almost be WAY too heavy of a spring?!

[dustin_j]

I agree with him about your front shocks, as long as your crossover spacers are correct (gaps with you on the quad).

You should be able to try the stock spring you have on the Works shock to make sure that's what you need before ordering. If you seem to be inbetween spring rates, I think Eibach and Hypercoil (can purchase through M@ul Tech or GT Thunder) make springs in 25 lb increments each way of 300. I prefer zero preload on my shocks/springs (not talking ZPS springs).

Sounds like you're measuring race sag correctly, just make sure you measure vertically. When setting up suspension, it's real nice to have a someone to help take measurements.

[JoePA]

Dustin,
I can't thank you enough for helpign me out. I enjoy learing something new or expanding on what I know.


I called Moto X-perts today and Spoke to Toby. they have done shock work for me in the past and I couldn't be hapier with thier work. I told him what was up and filled him in on where we are he recommend a 250lb rear spring. OK no problem. I also had an e-mail out to the fine folks at **** tech and they replied with the same answer...250lb rear spring.

So looks liek I'll be purchasing a 250lb spring tomorrow and see how it goes. I did try to use the stock spring on the Works shock it was just too small a diameter for the bottom "cup" to slide over so We'll give the 250lb a try and go from there.

Once agian thank you Dustin and everyone else for helping me out. I'll keep you posted!

[dustin_j]

Originally posted by JoePA
Dustin,
I can't thank you enough for helpign me out. I enjoy learing something new or expanding on what I know.


I called Moto X-perts today and Spoke to Toby. they have done shock work for me in the past and I couldn't be hapier with thier work. I told him what was up and filled him in on where we are he recommend a 250lb rear spring. OK no problem. I also had an e-mail out to the fine folks at M@ul tech and they replied with the same answer...250lb rear spring.

So looks liek I'll be purchasing a 250lb spring tomorrow and see how it goes. I did try to use the stock spring on the Works shock it was just too small a diameter for the bottom "cup" to slide over so We'll give the 250lb a try and go from there.

Once agian thank you Dustin and everyone else for helping me out. I'll keep you posted!

No problem Joe, glad you're getting it figured out!

[JoePA]

Is there a certain amount of sag we are looking for on the front?

I got my 250lb rear spring in and I gained almot nothing! I think the small spring on my front shocks are too stiff!

The part that sucks is I thought I was doing it right by sending it to the company that makes the shocks and i think they screwed them up!!!

[dustin_j]

Originally posted by JoePA
Is there a certain amount of sag we are looking for on the front?

I got my 250lb rear spring in and I gained almot nothing! I think the small spring on my front shocks are too stiff!

The part that sucks is I thought I was doing it right by sending it to the company that makes the shocks and i think they screwed them up!!!

Sometimes I wonder about Works, haha. If you verify frame top out and bottom out measurements are correct and matching front and rear, then you can just go by rear sag and setting front ride height. Since your travel is balanced front to rear, your front sag will fall into place when setting ride height.

Did Works ever say what your front spring rates are? I measured some of theirs awhile ago to get an idea on spring rate, and came up with like 350 lb/in. Two 350 lb/in springs stacked in series (like on your triple rate) would be equivalent to 175 lb/in, so they should work for you. Are you sure neither of the tenders are crossed out with you on the quad? Try removing the crossover spacers and measuring again. Maybe someone can take a picture of the tender springs with you on the quad?

[JoePA]

Dustin,
Once again thank you for all your input. I did take some pics and I'll post them as soon as I get a chance. I did happent o get some intersting info today.......

I gave Seth at SF racing a call today. I filled him on on what was up. He gave me a few tips on how to set the wuad up but he asked a key question that seems to be the issue with getting this quad to work. He asked how long the front shocks are and I said WORKS sells thier 250R shocks so they are 16 1/4 center to center where the stock shock is 15 3/4! He believes the spring rate is correct for the front but that length might be causing some issues.

He also asked about the laeger swingarm. With it being a -1 swingarm for the 86, which ends up being the 88-89 swing arm length, the rear shock might be too long! My WORKS rear shock is 16 3/8 center to center where teh 88-89 rear shock is 15 3/4!!!!

After hearing this it kind of all makes sense now as to why the race stance is the way it is! When I got home I put 1/4 gap between the compression nut and the top tender spring on the front shocks and set the quad on the ground and it made a difference! I have yet to do the same with the rear shock but I think once I do that, the quads race stance and measurements should fall right into place!

[D Bergstrom]

Originally posted by JoePA
My WORKS rear shock is 16 3/8 center to center where the 88-89 rear shock is 15 3/4!!!!

I thought the different rear shock lengths were due to the linkage, the 86's have the longer dogbone that hangs down more, hence a longer shock is required. I was always told the linkage mounting point was at the same place on the swingarm, regardless of year. As long as you use the correct linkage with the correct shock, everything should work close to the same regardless of swingarm length, just valving and spring rates will vary for the different length swingarms.

That being said, I had an Elka that I bought brand new from Elka for my 86 years ago. I replaced it over a year ago with a custom Motowoz shocks, but if I remember correctly, that Elka was only 16 1/8" extended eye to eye. I will have to check my notes if I can find them. Sounds like your rear shock may indeed be a little to long. I might even have the measurements for the Elka fronts I had also, need to see if I can find those notes.

Doug

[D Bergstrom]

Amazing, notes were exactly were I thought they would be! This is what I had for measurements for my old Elkas:

Rear eye to eye: 16-1/8"
shaft travel: 4-7/16"

Front eye to eye: 16-1/4"
shaft travel: 5-9/16"

Rear was setup up for an 86 stock linkage/stock swingarm. Front was setup for Houser +2+1 arms. I eventually switched to Laeger +3+1 arms, did sit higher with those arms and the same shocks. Wasn't to worried about it as I ride in the desert anyway. Now after hearing your experience, I bet the geometry was a little different between the Houser and Laeger arms. I bet the Laeger arms called for a shorter shock.

Doug

[dustin_j]

Joe,

Several things aren't making sense here, haha. I'd recommend measuring frame top out and bottom out heights again, or removing the shocks and measuring at frame heights of 12" and 1.5". Did Seth mention what frame height he prefers extended and compressed? NOTE: watch tire lug positions when measuring.

If we know for sure your shock lengths are correct, then we blame the spring rates (too stiff). If the shock lengths are wrong, then we can't really get the correct sag/ride height. This is why it's best to measure sag first, then ride height. Sag measurement takes into account the extended length, where ride height is just a number.

The 250lb/in rear spring should have made a HUGE difference if you were using a 325 lb/in spring, just stating this because it confuses me, haha.

[Mrs. SFRacing]

I gave him a measument of 7.25(range)rear and 7.5(range)front for a std travel non zps style shock setup,i do beleive the shocks could be a touch shorter without losing travel and performance,if he uses softer springs to lower the chassis height he will lose ride quality on large jumps and landings,just my opinion.

[dustin_j]

What frame height do you target when shocks are fully extended (and compressed if you'd like to share)? Joe mentioned his frame was at 11.5" when the shocks were fully extended. I agree that I'd like to see him in the same range for ride height, but I'm not sure my first thought would be to shorten extended length (less wheel travel). Do you know what rates his springs are? I'm very interested in hearing any more info you'd like to share on lowering his ride height. Should be a good discussion.

[Mrs. SFRacing]

I beleive if he dostnt shorten the shocks a hair then the bike really has un usable travel and will never travel to the bumper on big hits to the chassis,you have to be careful with spring rates when your doing this,the chassis needs a set amount of spring rate to keep the chassis off the ground.Shorter shock would require a stiffer spring rate to achieve this.

[dustin_j]

Seth, I agree with what you're saying. However I wonder, if his top out frame height is 11.5", couldn't he soften the tender spring curve slightly to get the sag, but achieve the same bottoming spring rate? Then he'd still have the extra shaft/wheel travel for plushness.

Or, if shortening the shock 0.25" would fix his ride height with this spring curve, what if he added a ZPS spring instead? Just trying to get a good discussion going.

[JoePA]

Seth....Once again thank you for taking time out of your day to listen to my suspension problems and get me pointed in the right direction! We'll get it figured out or I'll be selling all these damn WORKS shocks and you'll be building me a new set of PEPs!

I'm curious to see a comparison of 86 and 88 linkage side by side. Isn't just the "dogbone" shorter on the 88 but the linkage that attaches to the frame the same size?

I'm going to try installing my PEP zps rear shock from an 88 and see how it plays into the measurements.

[DoonRider]

JoePA how did this turn out? What did you end up doing?