What gives...smoking again

[cobrarthunder]

I Don't get it. I have maybe, and thats a big maybe 50 hours on my complete new top end. AND it started smoking again last weekend. Blue smoke, rev it and blue smoke....Valve seals?

All New
-440 wiseco 11:1 kit (piston/jug/rings)
-hot Can Stage2
-Kibblewhite springs
-Honda valves
-honda valve seals (edit)
-honda guides
-honda valve springs
-Cometic gaskets

The quad has engine air scoops, and an AC extra capacity oil tank. HMF full pipe and muffler. DynaJet kit in carb, with a modded airbox, and UNI filter.

Any ideas? I am really getting annoyed at this machine. It runs like a raped date, but I am getting tired of taking the top end apart.

yes I have the ring gaps spaced properly, and Its not the rings washed out (maybe 50 hours). Compression is good as well as leakdown test.

Any ideas?

thanks Chris

[NMills]

Id suggest the muffler bearings..... Never know....


IS this a constant smoke? only after start up??? after its warm???

[cobrarthunder]

Well I strapped it in the bed after riding, brought it home and parked it. I just went out and fired it up to power wash it and smoked when I started it, and gunned it a few times. I really cant ride it or let it warm up do to the fact all my neighbors are Obama voting hippies and call the police....sry tangent.

Anyway, washed it and started it again and put away....smoked again as I gunned it a few times. But this in the fist time I have seen it smoke since I rebuilt it in January. About 8 or so rides totaling roughly 50 hours. i rebuilt it due to the jug and rings being washed out completely (2001OEM) Bought the quad from original owner.

[cobrarthunder]

Originally posted by NMills

IS this a constant smoke? only after start up??? after its warm???

On a side note, it didn't smoke all day Sunday, as I rode with my friends. They never saw any smoke. So I would say it didn't smoke when warmed up.

[NMills]

Well.. if it only smokes co;d... then i'd say..... valve seals? possibly... but not positive... mine smokes all day long...

i'd say valve seals it is.did u put the valves and springs in yourself or did a shop do it?

[cobrarthunder]

Yea, I hear that alot about the 400ex's...but the smoke annoys the hell out of me. especially when one puts all new top end parts on the damn thing. Gets 50 some smoke free hours and then get back to the smoke again.....BS.

[2001400exrida]

long as it doesn't smoke while you're riding and the motot is warmed up.

if it smokes on startup your valve seals are bad. by the list of things you mentioned i didn't see valve seals on it.

[cobrarthunder]

Originally posted by PAxcThumper
i'd say valve seals it is.did u put the valves and springs in yourself or did a shop do it?

Valves, springs, seals, along with the guides were done in a machine shop as I helped (friends shop)

The hardest part was tapping the jug for the GTThunder Oversized head studs....

[cobrarthunder]

Yea forgot to list the valve seals in the rebuild list....ooops.

[CJM]

If it smokes on start up then goes away its valve seals, not exactly easy to replace but can be done with the right tools and some time.

Smokes constantly means your rings are shot. Probable cause is its running to lean and your burning them up (specially after 50 hours). Jetting for a 440 should be around 180-190 or so.

Whats your jetting?

[cobrarthunder]

Originally posted by CJM
If it smokes on start up then goes away its valve seals, not exactly easy to replace but can be done with the right tools and some time.

Smokes constantly means your rings are shot. Probable cause is its running to lean and your burning them up (specially after 50 hours). Jetting for a 440 should be around 180-190 or so.

Whats your jetting?

its the biggest dynajet....so 175 I think...let me check.

[cobrarthunder]

170 jet in it...

[NMills]

Could be time to step up... there are much bigger jets... those are basic stage 1 and 2 jets... simple mods... you should get bigger...

[cobrarthunder]

Originally posted by NMills
Could be time to step up... there are much bigger jets... those are basic stage 1 and 2 jets... simple mods... you should get bigger...

Copy So who sells individual jets online?

[NMills]

jetsrus.com

Very wide selection...

[CJM]

Originally posted by cobrarthunder
Copy So who sells individual jets online?

www.jetsrus.com you should be running somewhere around a 190 keihin jet, fwiw dynojets do not like the carbs keihin carbs at all.

Before you do anything, perform a compression test and if you can a leakdown test. Once you have a baseline for what your compression is put a little bit of oil (say a capful from a quart container) into the spark plug hole and check comp again-it goes up your rings are def shot. Stock compression is gonna be 100-128 psi, if its lower then again thats your problem.

Do you have heavy duty headstuds-if not with a 440 its needed unless your jetting is absolutely perfect.

Also if you take take the topend apart check for play in the connecting rod, up/down is not good, side to side slightly is fine.

You could rering it and hone the cylinder. Then throw in a 200 keihin jet with a new plug and do a plug chop (outlined in the 400EX FAQ thread in my signature) and determine if its running lean or not. Check your plug now, if it isnt golden tan/brownish than its not jetted right.

Theres a reason it keeps blowing. Im willing to bet its getting to hot due to a lean condition.

[hocman123]

well if u are runing dj then u need to get a rebuild kit to get the stock needle if u but stock jets back in it or it will not work right

[cobrarthunder]

Originally posted by CJM
www.jetsrus.com you should be running somewhere around a 190 keihin jet, fwiw dynojets do not like the carbs keihin carbs at all.

Before you do anything, perform a compression test and if you can a leakdown test. Once you have a baseline for what your compression is put a little bit of oil (say a capful from a quart container) into the spark plug hole and check comp again-it goes up your rings are def shot. Stock compression is gonna be 100-128 psi, if its lower then again thats your problem.

Do you have heavy duty headstuds-if not with a 440 its needed unless your jetting is absolutely perfect.

Also if you take take the topend apart check for play in the connecting rod, up/down is not good, side to side slightly is fine.

Theres a reason it keeps blowing. Im willing to bet its getting to hot.

Compression is good. When the top end was put on the big end of the rod had no play when I rebuilt in january. And yes I did the GTThunder big head studs.

Chris

[CJM]

Then Id say its time to look at the plug and rejet it using OEM keihin jets and needle.

Its gotta be lean, does it get very hot where the headers glow? Clear indication of lean if it does.

[cobrarthunder]

Originally posted by CJM
Then Id say its time to look at the plug and rejet it using OEM keihin jets and needle.

Its gotta be lean, does it get very hot where the headers glow? Clear indication of lean if it does.

headers have never glown per say while riding, and I have seen them glow once when I was breaking in the cam and holding the throttle off idle. once they started to glow I shut it down....again back in january. But no, never glowed while riding it.

[cobrarthunder]

Originally posted by CJM
Then Id say its time to look at the plug and rejet it using OEM keihin jets and needle.

Its gotta be lean, does it get very hot where the headers glow? Clear indication of lean if it does.

Could i use the stock needle with the 190 jet?

[tri5ron]

you say you had a machine shop do the head, but you do not mention who installed the jug and piston.

just out of curiosity,

Did you buy the 440 kit as an ebay purchase ?
Was it a piston and jug kit supposedly matched ?

Did you install them?

Did you check the bore (Measure it), and the piston ?

Or did you just assume that they were good, (matched), since they were both new and purchased as a kit together ?

The point is,...
If you just buy a piston/jug kit together,...

and install them WITHOUT measuring them FIRST,...

You are just rolling the dice, and just as in Vegas,....
the odds of you winning, are not in your favor.

[cobrarthunder]

Originally posted by tri5ron
you say you had a machine shop do the head, but you do not mention who installed the jug and piston.

just out of curiosity,

Did you buy the 440 kit as an ebay purchase ?
Was it a piston and jug kit supposedly matched ?

Did you install them?

Did you check the bore (Measure it), and the piston ?

Or did you just assume that they were good, (matched), since they were both new and purchased as a kit together ?

The point is,...
If you just buy a piston/jug kit together,...

and install them WITHOUT measuring them FIRST,...

You are just rolling the dice, and just as in Vegas,....
the odds of you winning, are not in your favor.

haha, yes we checked bore and piston diameter. it was a matched wiseco set, with rings. And yes I installed the top end. I am an ASE master Tech, and shop foreman of some 11 years now.

[CJM]

Originally posted by cobrarthunder
Could i use the stock needle with the 190 jet?

Sure. Im not a fan of DJ, I tried them and no matter what couldnt get it tuned right.

[cobrarthunder]

Just like to say you guys are being great in response time, and very thorough as well as helpful!

[CJM]

NP. Hope we can help solve your issues :)

it just seems like the valves aren't seated properly not that its the seals but rather the seal of the valve if u get what im saying.ill mess with just about anything up to and including a crazed cannibalistic hooker on a 10 day meth binge but i don't mess with valves. i always take the head directly to the oval dirt track motorheads who mess with these things all day long (where do u think i meet all the crazed methed out hookers??) seriously though i like to let someone else be responsible for that stuff,preferably the guys who've been doing it every week 30 weeks a year for the last 30 years.

[cobrarthunder]

well the valves are new, and so are the guides and seals. I am going to lean towards the valve seals.

I just ordered a 190 jet, and will install next week, change the oil, and filter....and ride.

I really hope in 50 hours of trail riding not all balls out racing it didn't wipe the rings.

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by cobrarthunder
haha, yes we checked bore and piston diameter. it was a matched wiseco set, with rings. And yes I installed the top end. I am an ASE master Tech, and shop foreman of some 11 years now. very good then. just wasn't sure of your building experience.

often the kids will go buy some big bore 12:1 kit on ebay,... openthe fed-ex package,...slap it together,.. throw on a over rev box,...
then come on here and ask something like,...
"are my headers supposed to glow bright orange, or is a dark red glow good enough ?, and how loud should it clatter ???"

LOL

Sounds like you're a lot more experienced, and don't do the novice mistakes. hope you get it figured out. you've got some good guys helping you.

[cobrarthunder]

Well this smoke issue....and the damn hotcam valve tick really piss me off. I adjusted the valves I don't know how many damn times. Everywhere from just under factory spec to Hot cam spec.

Always the same tick....but hell it runs like a Raped Date!

[CJM]

hot cams will always tick b/c of the lift they give-nature of the beast.

[cobrarthunder]

Ahhhh crap. Just broke my machined down spark plug socket (Crapsman 18mm turned on a lathe)

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by cobrarthunder
Ahhhh crap. Just broke my machined down spark plug socket (Crapsman 18mm turned on a lathe) been there, done that.
weld a bead down all the sides where it's cracked & where its real thin next to the tips. Regrind (not as much), and try it again.

But this does raise the question as to why the Spark Plug is so damn tight in the first place. It shouldn't be THAT tight.
(I'm sure you already know that)

[cobrarthunder]

Originally posted by tri5ron
been there, done that.
weld a bead down all the sides where it's cracked & where its real thin next to the tips. Regrind (not as much), and try it again.

But this does raise the question as to why the Spark Plug is so damn tight in the first place. It shouldn't be THAT tight.
(I'm sure you already know that)

This is the third one. I just ordered a MotionPro plug socket.

[2001400exrida]

u can't beat the stock one imo.

[CJM]

My crapsmen socket hasnt failed but even tho Ive ground most of it away its still tight.

Stock tool is looking more and more worth it. I hear the motion pro is still a bit tight. What I do like is you can use a wrench over the top of it.

[cobrarthunder]

Well I checked the compression again. 115psi dry and wet. I popped in a new plug, changed the oil & filter (which was 3 rides old=15hrs).

Started it up, smoked of course due to the oil in the cyl. from comp check. Revved a few times, and got it up to operating temp. Stopped smoking when hot. Shut it down and went to the local Competition Accessories Store with a buddy to get parts for his grizzly 660.

When we got back an hour later, I fired it up. No smoke, no smoke goosing it. So IDK?

Screw it i guess. been running Valvoline 10w-40 ATV oil in it for 2 years. Before I rebuilt it and since I rebuilt it.

At any rate I ordered a 190 jet. So I don't run the risk of being lean as I was advised the 170 wont cut it with a 440 11:1 and HotCam S2.

Thanks Guys!

[cobrarthunder]

ohhh...and after talking to a few buddies tonight while working on the ATV's. They brought up a good point.

At the end of the day last weekend, I did run the EX WOT out of the woods and across a field to the truck and shut if off, and tossed it in the bed. SO I did give it hell to the top of 5th and shut it down. Any input as to if that might have cause more oil to get past the valve seals or rings?? Causing the smoke a few days ago?

[CJM]

I doubt it had anything to do with it.

Curious your sure its oil thats burning? I know when its cold you will get quite similar smoke. Not calling you stupid but hey ya never know.

You are sure its burning oil too, right? Start up, let run check oil after 10 mins of letting it run should be accurate.

115 is kinda low, but if its consistent its still within the 100-128psi range.

[cobrarthunder]

Well, it smells like oil, and looks blue just like oil. It cleared up after about 3 min of running last night, and didn't smaok an hour later when i started it again.

I will check again tonight and see what it does when I start it after work.

Chris