416 vs. 440

[BigGun400EX]

What are the advantages/disadvantages of either one and witch would be the best is your opinion?

[RideRed400StYlE]

440 more torque, possibly a little more power overall, but on the negative side you have lots of heat, a very thin sleeve, and it doesnt rev as fast.
416 quicker revving, about the same power, more reliable, doesnt run as hot, thicker sleeve..

I would go 416
Just my opinion tho
I am actually putting a 426 in mine.. but thats because I got a good deal on it, and I was looking for a little more torque.. but I have a few other tricks going into my motor.. some "sleeper" mods.. hehe that will help out alot too

[Natertot426ex]

I love my 426. I have had it for about 5 months now and it is awesome. Look and see what all I have done to mine.

[BigGun400EX]

WEll in a straigt line drag witch would prove faster? The quicker revving or the torque? And would a 440 not be that reliable or would it still be pretty good holding up? Also, I've herd bad stuff about Wiesco pistons, any of that stuff true like there not the compression they state and all that? Or do you have a opinion on the best sleeve/piston combo? I'd like to go 11:1 compression.

[Natertot426ex]

I know on an up hill drag at the dunes a 440 will beat me at the bottum end but about 1/4 way up the hill I will pass him and beat him by about 8 bike lengths. On a 440 they replace the sleeve anyway so it won't get super hot. And if it does the best way to cure that is to get an oversized oil tank which I am soon going to get.

[BigGun400EX]

I'm looking for the kit that will have most power all around, we do mostly MX type jumpin', open trail riding so you can have some power they ani't too tight. So what your sayin is the 440 has the bottom but your 426 has the mid/top?

[forum]

:devil I like my 426 too....:devil hehehe

[Natertot426ex]

Watch out with you breeding a honda and a yamaha like that you might make a polaris!!!:D :devil

[forum]

iu never understood why people don't like mixing manufacturers stuff. Cause in actuality there is very little on my machine that actualy came from honda. And i've always loved yamaha.

[Natertot426ex]

Oh I was just jokin' with ya. That is cool that you have the ability to do that.

[raptor_02]

i have been researching the topic for a while now. Of course a 440 is going to be faster, that is common sense. But to do a 440 right you will have to spend well over 1000 bucks to make it reliable. Also when I talked with a guy from SPARKS he acted like the best way to run a 440 would be on racing gas because it would make it run cooler. So what I took from that is i'll have to spend a whole lot of money and run racing gas to make a 440 reliable so I then decided I think a 416 would be better. All you need with a 416 is piston, gaskett and cam. 440 you need, heavy duty connecting rod, heavy duty cam chain, resleeve, hardfaced rockers, heavy duty valve springs, piston, gaskett, cam and Sparks reccomended running on racing gas. So to me that is too much money to go into my motor when I can spend 500 for a 416 and get close to a 440 that would cost 1500 or more. So I have decided to go with a 416.

[BigGun400EX]

I had everything accounted for except the heavy duty cam chain and the hardfaced rockers. Do you know a good brand name/web site or somethin where I could check some prices? Thank's for the input.

[Sparks425Ex]

Just go with a 416. Faster Revving, In My opinion a Much better power spread out. Plus it has the reliablity.


416 is a great way to go...

[ill_lil_romey]

Nacs is right. I dragged with many 440's when I had my stock 11:1 and came out on top many times, But most 416's and 26's ate me up. See its not about how many Hp you have, its how much of it is USEABLE power.

[Steve-o 400EX]

I was also wondering what I should go with, 416 or 440. I think this forum answered my question. I want whatever is going to make my machine rev quick and be reliable.

Also, how do you think a 416 would do against a cannondale cannibal, my best friend is gettin one and I am tryin to mod my 400 to keep up with that thing.


Great thread Big Gun!:macho

[raptor_02]

Originally posted by BigGun400EX
I had everything accounted for except the heavy duty cam chain and the hardfaced rockers. Do you know a good brand name/web site or somethin where I could check some prices? Thank's for the input. you could get a DROP IN cam which doesn't require Hard Faced Rockers and Heavy Duty Valve Springs. But in my opinion it would be better to go with the 416. For the guy asking about a 416 vs a cannibal. I have never rode a cannibal or a 416. But I asked Rico one day his opinion on it and he said his 416's 4th gear felt about like a Speeds 3rd. Cannondales are gears alot higher and would probaly walk away from a 416. I don't know personally but hopefully one day I will find out for myself.

[Steve-o 400EX]

Originally posted by raptor_02
you could get a DROP IN cam which doesn't require Hard Faced Rockers and Heavy Duty Valve Springs. But in my opinion it would be better to go with the 416. For the guy asking about a 416 vs a cannibal. I have never rode a cannibal or a 416. But I asked Rico one day his opinion on it and he said his 416's 4th gear felt about like a Speeds 3rd. Cannondales are gears alot higher and would probaly walk away from a 416. I don't know personally but hopefully one day I will find out for myself.

Ok thanks for the input on that, I'm just trying to get my 400 as close to it as I can just so I can keep up or be close, but I know its gunna be tough.

[BigGun400EX]

So what ya'll are saying is a 440 with the right parts to go along with it will still get ate up by a 416? And where speed wise does a 440 and a 416 fall in with a raptor cause thats mostly what I ride with.

[Natertot426ex]

My buddy has a Duncan built 440 with the FCR carb on it and I Have yet to see it beat. They build some pretty awesome motors. It all depends on how well it is built and how much the person that is building it knows.

[BigGun400EX]

That's the only thing, I would be getting someone local to do it, probably get all the parts from CT or Sparks. I'm pretty sure the bore & sleeve instalation would be done pretty good but I don't know if the port/polish would be anywhere near as good as someone like sparks, duncan ect. doing it. Do you that it would still work just as well with the right parts? CT 440 probably (Ross 11:1 piston), web cam, heavy duty valve springs, maybe beef up a coupple other internals for strength.

[raptor_02]

go to CT's website. They have a couple of 440 packages over there that should keep your motor reliable. One of there kits puts a 400ex at 45HP. That kit will put you very competitive against a cannnodale. One of my buddies has that kit and he said he took a MOTO440 in a drag race but.....he also said the rider wasn't as good on the moto. But still a crappy rider on a moto would normally kill a 440ex in a drag but his seems to be pretty quick.

[oregonrider89]

I agree the 416 is a faster reving engine, but I have never been beat by one with my 440. A 440 may cost a little more but it does make more power than a 416 or 426. As far as reliability I don't think you'll have any moer trouble with a 440 than a 416, if your worried about a thin cylinder wall go with a stroker kit. My cylinder is bored to a 416 then stroked to 440.

oregonrider89

[Str8Wicked]

All these guys saying a 416 is faster than a 440 I don't get. If the 416 was proven to be better than the 440 kits than it would not still be available in my opinion. I think as long as you build it right the first time you won't have any problems....

I'm not talking from experence since I still have a 400 but just my opinion on the subject...

[remlapr]

Originally posted by oregonrider89
I agree the 416 is a faster reving engine, but I have never been beat by one with my 440. A 440 may cost a little more but it does make more power than a 416 or 426. As far as reliability I don't think you'll have any moer trouble with a 440 than a 416, if your worried about a thin cylinder wall go with a stroker kit. My cylinder is bored to a 416 then stroked to 440.

oregonrider89

If yours is both bored and stroked doesn't that mean your total displacement is actually more than just 440:confused:

[ieatglue]

i would go with a 440 bore and stroke combo. it will rev just as quick as a 416 and will run just as cool. you will also keep your reliability. thats just my opinion.

[BigGun400EX]

What all would I have to look into buying for a 440 bore/stroke to make it better while I got the engine tore down?

[oregonrider89]

Like sponge_bob said the 440 bore/stroke combo does have a thicker cylinder wall if that is a concern, as far as reliabiltiy. Mine runs cool thanks to an FST oil cooler and a race gas mixture. But I didn't have any trouble with it overheating before the oil cooler, I just got it to help keep the engine cooler to make optimum power all the time.

As far as things to do while you engine is torn down, I'd go with a heavy duty rod. You don't need one for the 440, but if you decided to bore to a 460 later you will, and if you already have one you won't need to tear the engine down again.

remlapr, My total displacement is 439.9cc.
Pi * radius squared * length or
Pi * bore/2 squared * stroke

oregonrider89

[raptor_02]

www.sparksracing.com
www.ctracing.com

go to sparks. there is a ton of info there about the 440 and the 416.

[BigGun400EX]

So all and all, if I went 440, what kit should I go with? I was thinking of CT Racings 440 with the 11:1 Ross, web cam with the heavy duty valve springs, I was trying to do it so later if I wanted to I could go a 12:1 piston, webs race cam then thats when I should go with the heavy duty cam chain and all right? And does anyone know where you can get a good looking reliable oversized oil tank?

[Sick0]

OK, I'm not trying to flame anybody but I can't see a stroker engine reving faster a stocker. If you same engine with same piston(same weight), the
416 will rev faster than a stroke 440(stroked 416). It only make sence to me because the stroker will have to travel far there to complete a stroke
which will take more time, which means it won't rev as fast as a normally 416. But I could see it making a lot more lowend power.

I was wondering if you could get a storter crank and use a 440 sleeve how fast would thats REV. I think it rev more like 2stroke engine. I think it could be a combo for some racing. I just don't think anybody has done it. I heard of poeple doing it with 454 big blocks and destroking them making them 427's and the thing REVed like a mother fucer. I geuss it was a great engine for mud racing or soming.

[oregonrider89]

I'm not sure how a 440 stroker and a 416 compare in their ability to rev, your conclusion seems logical, that the stroker would take longer. Your also correct that they make more power, especialy low end power.

When you use a 440 bore with a 440 stroker crank you get a 460 or there about. Some guys on this site have them, they sound fast.

oregonrider89

[Sick0]

I'm not taking about a longer rod. I was think about destroking(shorter rod)a 440 motor. Making it oversquare. I would think it would be like a good TT race set-up. It problem rev good. But I don't think it would have lose some lowend with this set-up.I know the new Z-400are made more like thats and the Rev fast and have more topend abd the atre a little soft on the lowend. And I know the 400ex has a longer stroke than and smaller piston thats z400, and I know the 400ex makes lowend makes more power and won't rav as good. I know there othere diffrance between the two thats make power diffrent.

[ieatglue]

a shorter rod is not destroking. the stroke is in the throw of the crank. the stroked and bored 440 will rev faster then a bore only 440 because of the smaller bore size. the smaller the piston the less weight that is moving which in turn makes it pick up rpms quicker. i never said that a bore and stroke 440 will rev faster then a stock 400 or even a 416. what i said is it would rev as fast. it would be close enough you would not be able to tell a difference. it would, however, rev faster then a bore only 440. i have rode 416s, bore only 440s, and have owned a bore/stroke 440 and the one i owned had the power of a 440 (low end and top end) but would pick up the rpms just like a 416. i was also running 13 to 1 compression which made it rev much quicker also. if you are on a budget the go with the bore only 440, they make great power and i don't think overheating is that much of a problem.

[Sick0]

ok your right about the Rod. I was talking about the crank. But whats about a destroked 440?.
I was thinking about a stroker 416 combo like you said but I never heard of somebody doing it.

[ieatglue]

i have never heard of a destroked 400 motor.

let me do some checking. my local mechanic did my bore/stroke 440. i will check with him and see where he got the crank from. i know the crank and rod assembly came in one piece and then when i had to replace the rod i just bought a stock lenght 400 hot rod.

[Sick0]

I mean crank with a shorter stroke than stock but with a 440 sleeve. I would think thats make it like a 416.

[Sick0]

I mean crank with a shorter stroke than stock but with a 440 sleeve. I would think thats make it like a big bore 416.

[flying400ex]

I think they destroke crf450's to 440's to be legal in GNC

[flying400ex]

let us know

[ieatglue]

they resleeve the crf450s 1mm to make them a 440 for gnc.

i guess destroking the big bore would work. but with the shorter stroke your rod would not come up as high therefore you would have to move the wrist pin down lower in the piston to make it reach the top of the cylinder and i don't know if anyone makes one. it would work if you had a longer rod to make up the length of the destroke. i never heard of it so i have no idea how it would run.

[ill_lil_romey]

When the crf450 motor is destroked to make it legal it does not have a noticable effect in the overall power of the motor. If anything all it does it make it rev faster. A 440 stroker will always put out more Hp than a 440 bore only, but they are more expensive. I think that a 416 or 426 is the best mod for anyone looking for huge gains over stock and not paying an arm and a leg for it. A high compression 416 or 426 built right can easily keep up with some 440's. For half the price. Note I said SOME 440's

[ieatglue]

thats right, if you are looking for the hp gains without alot of money then i would say a 416 or 425 also. if you got the money then stroke it.:D

A high compression 416 or 426 built right can easily keep up with some 440's. For half the price. Note I said SOME 440's

I was gonna stay away from this thread (cause this subjects been beaten to friggin death) but I saw this in your post and thought maybe just maybe I could get one or two people to understand this a little better.

Your statement is correct, and a properly modded blaster will also keep up or out run a 400ex with poor cylinder compression and leaky valves etc.

The interesting part of that statement is "some 440's" and I know most of the 440s out there were not built properly and have more than one reason that they dont perform properly. So yes a properly built 416 or 425 bore motor can out perform a 440 bore motor that wasnt built properly, what the deal is here is that there is less to "know" to get the smaller bores running correctly.

With everything being equal a 440cc is going make more power than a simialiarly modded 416 due to the larger cyl volume and stronger explosion etc. (same holds true for the 493 or 500cc v/s the 440) but if the smaller is built right and the larger one is low on comp or starving for air or fuel we are not comparing apples to apples and everything changes.

There are so many things that could cause a engine to be under performing I would need another page or two to go over them but if you like to educate yourself on the problems and how to fix them do a search on a thread titled Have you decked the cylinder as it deals with all the popular mess ups that caused the older 440's to run poorly.

Have fun.

[twisted threads]

I was going to stay out of this one to but I got to agree with 440Ex4me about everything he said. Also I would like to add that I have seen some poorly built 440's out there that give the 440 kits a bad name. I agree that a 440 bore kit alone could not beat a 416 or a 426 because of how much better they rev up. But you start putting mods on you 440 and it will wake up into a monster. :scary: AT LEAST MINE DID I have drag raced countless 416 and 426, some ran good some didnt but they all were better than a stock 400ex. I sugest getting what you can afford and have fun doing it:D :cool:

[Sick0]

The stroker 440 soulds like a good I dea to me. May be I will built one. Where do you get the crank.

[Sick0]

Plus whats else would I have to make the combo work.

[ieatglue]

i know powroll offers this kit and i think four strok tech might.

www.powroll.com

i do not know the website to four stroke tech.

[oregonrider89]

I got my kit from Powroll and love it. I have two suggstions though. You can find the 39mm FRC for cheeper than they sell it for, just look around if your looking to save a few bucks. Second, if you can afford it go with the heavy duty rod. You don't need it for the 440, but if you may ever want to go bigger all you have to is top end work, you won't have to tear down the dottom end again. The rod is spendy, but it will save you money and time later if you decide to do with a 460.

Oh, and one more thing, I just got an LRD pipe, Its awsome! It sounds good, looks good, runs good, and is built very well. Nice work LRD.

oregonrider89

I sugest getting what you can afford and have fun doing it

Well said :)

And if you dont know what you want search, search, search till you get some info on what really works or not.

[BigGun400EX]

I'm just tryin to get what I need to build a 440 right. Make it as fast as I can and still work with the stock carb, then a month or so down the road throw a FCR39 on it. I still don't really know what to put in it except the bore kit of course, cam, heavy duty valve springs, port and polish head but thats a problem in it's self, I can get everything done except I cant find a excellent port/polish man, anyone know of one in or close to Virginia? (that does really good work), and besides the things I just listed, what else would be good to get the most out of a 440 (engine wise)? Like I said i'll probably get a FCR39 a coupple weeks after this project is done.

[ieatglue]

the stock ex head flows really well. i doesn't really need porting, maybe just a little polishing. you might try to find someone to do a 5 angle valve job on it. i had it done to mine and it made it flow alot better.

[BigGun400EX]

Alright, thanks allot for all the help I guess its up to tha ol' mechanic to do a good job to make it run well. Thanks again for all the input.