AMA 2 Stroke petition

[Pappy]

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/review-ama-pro-racing-rule-change.html

[wild250rman]

interesting!

[Fear250r]

It should be 250 in the 250 class and so on and so forth...

[jcs003]

this is the comment i left:

there shouldnt be these restrictions on two strokes.450 two stroke vs. 450 four stroke.

also, why do EFI bikes race against carberated bikes? if this is fair then same should go for displacement.

[dehner47]

Originally posted by jcs003
this is the comment i left:

there shouldnt be these restrictions on two strokes.450 two stroke vs. 450 four stroke.

also, why do EFI bikes race against carberated bikes? if this is fair then same should go for displacement.

are you for real with the EFI/carborated comment?? think about it, we cant 20 pro riders to line up on the gate at the same race. and you wanna now give the AMA the idea to split EFI/carb bikes.. ya, cause that would really help our sport..

and in my opinion, they both have advantages and disadvantages. so i feel it should be the choice of the rider what kinda fuel delivery he runs.. just my 2 cents..

[jcs003]

Originally posted by dehner47
are you for real with the EFI/carborated comment?? think about it, we cant 20 pro riders to line up on the gate at the same race. and you wanna now give the AMA the idea to split EFI/carb bikes.. ya, cause that would really help our sport..

and in my opinion, they both have advantages and disadvantages. so i feel it should be the choice of the rider what kinda fuel delivery he runs.. just my 2 cents..

thats not how i meant it. i was trying to convey if they are being biased of two strokes to four strokes, they should do the same for EFI and carbs.

sorry for not being clear. being devils advocate occasionally backfires.

[dehner47]

Originally posted by jcs003
thats not how i meant it. i was trying to convey if they are being biased of two strokes to four strokes, they should do the same for EFI and carbs.

sorry for not being clear. being devils advocate occasionally backfires.

i appoligise to for taking that the wrong way. thought you ment you were for the split of EFI/carbs.. my bad dude.

[K-Dub]

Signed #899 August of 2010. My comment: The 2 stroke should not of been handicapped to begin with. If the 4 stoke can not keep up at equal displacement it should not be on the track.

[ZeroLogic]

250 2t should be with 250 4t.

You have to be one hell of a rider to beat a 250f on a 125 2t.

[buck440]

#4111

[RATPACK Z400]

Handicapped are you REAL ! Your acting like the 250r is getting subtacted CC,s to race with 450,s ! there TWO totally different motors when are you 2-stroke morons gonna get it ! Yes give them 300cc,s and they,ll still complain its not enuff cc,s mark my word . I think they should race so we all can see why the 450 is king of the track now and the 250r is of the past ! The 450 broke ALL track time the 250r set ! FACT.

[motochamp250]

:huh say what? this is an apostrophe ('). this is a comma (,). They are TWO totally different forms of punctuation.


Also, I'd hope that the "new" 450's would break the track times of a 22 year old bike! lots of improvement huh? :rolleyes:

I agree with k-dub. If it can't keep up at equal displacement then they can keep their mouth shut. 450 vs 450 haha

The 450 is "king of the track" because of the production rule. Period!

Just having a little fun... how long will this argument go on? ya'll just have to prove how much better you are than a 22 year old bike? :D

[tayyo789]

Nowadays the riders are more competitive as well. If someone from the late 80's could ride a track faster than today's guys, on a bike with not only older factory technologies, but older aftermarket technologies as well, then we haven't done our job of advancing over the years.
However, equal displacement, with all new technologies, the two stroke would win easily.

[etccb]

Originally posted by RATPACK Z400
Handicapped are you REAL ! Your acting like the 250r is getting subtacted CC,s to race with 450,s ! there TWO totally different motors when are you 2-stroke morons gonna get it ! Yes give them 300cc,s and they,ll still complain its not enuff cc,s mark my word . I think they should race so we all can see why the 450 is king of the track now and the 250r is of the past ! The 450 broke ALL track time the 250r set ! FACT.

really????

[extremeblastr]

am i the only person who is aware this is a null and void arguement? the factories are not going to produce new 2 strokes to match the displacement rule change due to the fact that two stroke orv's are banned by the epa currently.

[250R-Dee]

It would not be logical to allow the 2-smokes to have the same amount of displacement as a 4-poke. A race-ready 450cc 2 stroke has to the ability to produce at least twice the horsepower as a 4-stroke. The main advantage for the 4-poke will be usable hp.

Let's jump to another Bike division.
MOTOGP-MOTO2 - if NSR500R, YZR500 and RGV500 were allowed to run in the MOTO2 600cc 4-stroke class, the only way the 4-pokes would win would be if one of the 2-smokes broke or wrecked. The 2 smokes would have a 65~80hp advantage.

Now let's jump back to the dirt. 265~270cc 2-smokes would keep everything competitive while the larger cc 2-smoke motors would turn the races into a circus. Try pitting a 250R Geometry MX build Banshee against the 450's and you'll see what I mean.

I say allow the 2-smokes to race but keep the size restriction.

Oh yeah, 2-smokes are readily produced and sold outside of the US.
Read more about the EPA and CARBII rules because 2 strokes are not banned but rather restricted. Direct injected ECM controlled 2-stroke motors are still used. Many manufacturers found it to be too expensive to produce ECM controlled direct injected 2-smokes for the mass market. Finicky US buyers would not be willing to pay the extra 25%~ for a heavy regulated 2-smoke. After the 3-wheeler incident in the 80's, Honda will always be the first company to bow to EPA or any other US regulatory body.

Check the Yamaha 2011 catalog and you will find 2 stroke bikes.
Suzuki USA dropped the 2 smokes from their catalog last year but you can still get them in Japan.
Honda does not list the NS250 circuit bike in its catalog but it is still available for purchase directly from Honda.

[YFZ-FoFiddy-TC]

I think 2-strokes should be able to race but only with a CC restriction as stated before me.

[K-Dub]

Originally posted by YFZ-FoFiddy-TC
I think 2-strokes should be able to race but only with a CC restriction as stated before me.

Why? Do you feel the 4 stroke needs the handicap? The 2 stroke doesn't need to have a displacement change, the 4 stroke does. It needs a 125 version to go against the 125 and then 250 vs 250, and 450 vs 500. If the 4 stroke is inferior and needs a handicap the 4 stroke does not need on the track. The class's was 125, 250, and 500 for 30 years, why did the class's need changed for? Oh cause the 4 stroke couldn't hang at them sizes. If it couldn't hang, it didn't need on the track. They changed the class displacements, and the track layouts to accommodate the 4 stokes which should not have happened. I own 2 4 stroke quads and enjoy them, but do not feel things should have change to make the 4 stroke competitive, it either adapts to the rules already present or sets on the sidelines. This is as bad if the NFL would change its rules to accommodate midgets (not knocking on them, just an example) that normal size players have to play on there knees. We can have 2 stroke quads the same as the YZ still being made and sold without DI, it just requires a decal and titled for closed course competition use only. Then the EPA can shove their rules were the sun don't shine.

[quad2xtreme]

Lots of opinions...wonder what occurs behind closed doors that never gets published? I might be wrong but I am fairly certain private meetings go on between the EPA and manufacturers. EPA wields tons of power and jurisdiction (that is open to change when deemed necessary). There is no such thing as FU to the EPA based on regulations that can change at the drop of a hat.

[motochamp250]

Originally posted by K-Dub
Why? Do you feel the 4 stroke needs the handicap? The 2 stroke doesn't need to have a displacement change, the 4 stroke does. It needs a 125 version to go against the 125 and then 250 vs 250, and 450 vs 500. If the 4 stroke is inferior and needs a handicap the 4 stroke does not need on the track. The class's was 125, 250, and 500 for 30 years, why did the class's need changed for? Oh cause the 4 stroke couldn't hang at them sizes. If it couldn't hang, it didn't need on the track. They changed the class displacements, and the track layouts to accommodate the 4 stokes which should not have happened. I own 2 4 stroke quads and enjoy them, but do not feel things should have change to make the 4 stroke competitive, it either adapts to the rules already present or sets on the sidelines. This is as bad if the NFL would change its rules to accommodate midgets (not knocking on them, just an example) that normal size players have to play on there knees. We can have 2 stroke quads the same as the YZ still being made and sold without DI, it just requires a decal and titled for closed course competition use only. Then the EPA can shove their rules were the sun don't shine.


+1

[250R-Dee]

K-dub - it is not a handicap. The original classes were based off of 2-smoke motors. It is common knowledge that 2-smoke only require half the displacement to produce the same amount of hp as a 4-poke. This is the result of the design of the 2-smoke motor. A CR500/YZ500/KX500/RM500 would totally rule the pro classes.

Now in the open class it would not matter but class specific races you want the horsepower of the bikes/ATVs to be as evenly matched as possible. If we use your logic, big wheels and ATC500R's (not a production trike) should be allowed to race together. Heck, they both have 3 wheels :blah:

[motochamp250]

The EPA is the biggest joke ever... what good is our clean diesels and emissions regulations when china is burning coal like it's going out of style (anyone remember the olympics and wearing masks?) and japan is dumping thousands of tons of nuclear waste into the pacific?? Our one little country of clean can't make up for a world of pollution. EPA is a joke and needs to be done away with or at least cut some power away. I'm tired of them telling me what i can and can't do or buy b/c of the FARSE of global warming and the b/s environmental impact...JMO

[quad2xtreme]

4-stroke can never be made to compete with a 2-stroke on a straight cc basis so nobody is going to argue that the 4-stroke class doesn't need a handicap. There are really 2 options:

1) separate classes for 2-strokes

or

2) try to come up with some fairness in terms of power and weight to have them compete in the same class. Certainly having equal cc's wouldn't be competitive at all so that won't work. How about only allowing a 2-stroke to fire once every 4 revolutions just like a 4 stroke.

Good thing we aren't talking about pulling either...we'd have people thinking gas engines and diesel engines should be in the same class based on cc's too.

[quad2xtreme]

Originally posted by motochamp250
The EPA is the biggest joke ever... what good is our clean diesels and emissions regulations when china is burning coal like it's going out of style (anyone remember the olympics and wearing masks?) and japan is dumping thousands of tons of nuclear waste into the pacific?? Our one little country of clean can't make up for a world of pollution. EPA is a joke and needs to be done away with or at least cut some power away. I'm tired of them telling me what i can and can't do or buy b/c of the FARSE of global warming and the b/s environmental impact...JMO

apparently you weren't breathing air in the 60's and 70's if you don't think the EPA serves a purpose. Inequality of emissions across the world definitely isn't fair but we definitely can't let companies pollute to their hearts content.

[motochamp250]

it may serve a small purpose, but they have wayyyyy too much power... and all this made up global warming bs infuriates me

[K-Dub]

+1 Motochamp250!


Like i said we don't need the 4 stroke on the race track if its inferior. Now if it takes a 2 times bigger engine to produce the same power it is inferior by your words. 3 times the moving parts, 2 strokes of wasted energy. The 4 stroke has its purpose, but it not on an SX, MX or TT track. SX/MX has become boring to me, haven't been to an SX/MX (bikes) since the 4 stroke revolution and wont till the 2 stroke returns. Plus they don't sound as good to me, yes a 4 stroke can sound good, I like how my 450R sounds but not 20 of them pinned on the gate, that sounds like crap bouncing off the limiter. Now 20 2 strokes and the smell of premix in the air now that's heaven. Also from being around MX for 30 years, the art of riding isn't there anymore, the 4 stroke is so easy to ride just about anyone can do it. I have a female friend that wanted me to teach her to ride, stuck her on the 450R and she took right to it (in a hay field not trails) throw the 250R under her and she hates it, you gotta know how to go fast on a 2 stroke not just push the throttle. I prefer my 450R in the woods but on the track my 250Rs are so much more fun and take more skill to go fast. I am not looking this up again but there is information that shows the 4 stroke puts out more pollution than a properly tuned 2 stroke. Its hydro carbons or something that you don't here about often. If the factory's would have just put their money into D.I. for the 2 stroke instead of the 4 strokes that try to run like a 2 stroke. Heak people have always complained about having to riding the 2 stroke wound tight, look at the MXA comparison between the YZ250 and the YZ250F, the F produces its power and torque at a higher RPM than the 2 stroke. Like I said I like both but they both have their place. Enjoy riding which ever you ride 2 or 4, this is just a discussion not a flame war for me. One thing I enjoy about having 4 strokes on the track is the look on their face when my fat rear blows by them on my little 265cc PC2000. Ride on!

Oh and WE THE PEOPLE can tell the government to F off when ever we want, we just got to grow the balls first and get off our lazy butts and grab our guns like our four fathers did against the British. But to many good people just want to sit and complain. But that is a different discussion and not for this board. In the words of Paul Revere 2 arms 2 arms.

[quad2xtreme]

Zero argument that a 4-stroke can't produce the same power on a per cc basis as a 2-stroke. That doesn't change a thing though. The real question is do you want AMA to bring back specific classes for those who want to race 2 strokes and if not, how would you propose they race against the 4-strokes that consumers can purchase in the marketplace today?

To think that a 4 stroke shouldn't be on a track is Charlie talk. The bikes of today are doing everything the bikes of yesterday did so who cares if it is 100cc or a 1000cc engine doing it? Racing is racing. The one thing for sure is the air quality is much better today at an event than it was in the 2 stroke days.

[RATPACK Z400]

It s so funny! you dudes think that riding a 80+hp 250r for 20laps and being able to hang on, every weekend and having money to buys parts for this things. Is crazy! Second the stock 250r had only around 30 hps they would get crushed stock 450,s can produce 60+hps with stock cc,s and hold power longer (linear line on grafh) torque forever ,And Less fatige from the vibration the 2-stroke would have ! there here to stay ! They banned the Suzuki 450 and you think they let us ride 250r,s ? EPA would like to ban it all ! I say have unlimited class and run what you want to 2-4 stroke Any CC,s up to a 1000cc. Ha Ha . It would have to be a 18old and up class to ride ! you,ll have so extreme carnage going on !

[tayyo789]

:huh

[buck440]

i don't think i once corrected anybody about grammar on the internet but damn.

[250R-Dee]

Ratpack - you are totally lost! The max engine size for a pro class 250 is 265cc. Unless you strap TWO "Fast and the Furious" big bottles of NOS to the setup you will NEVER see 80+hp from a 250~265cc 2-stroke. Do you have any idea how much hp an MX ported pro 250 class 2-stroke actually makes? Did you know 250R's and many of the other quads with 2-smoke motors were counter-balanced so your vibration comment is moot.

Do some more research! Try to comprehend what you are reading and then try to make a coherent reply.

:D

[buck440]

plus it's not the hp that makes you fast, it's the torque

[RATPACK Z400]

80+hps was joke ! Unlimited class is the only way you could see 2 vrs 4 strokes run. IMO. There not going to have championship racing pro level on a machine not made anymore !

[K-Dub]

Walsh still makes a 250R geometry chassis, ESR is almost ready to sell cases, BDT is prepping to make cases, Duncan racing, ESR, and Pro X make cylinders, Wiesco, Pro X and others selling pistons, you can run the 450R hubs, rotors, spindles, and brakes, a few company's make radiators, Hinson makes the clutch components, and etc etc. How stock is a pro quad anyways? The frame,engine cases, radiator, steering components and brakes? The 250R has become the equal to the works type MX bike of the 70's and early 80's (one off builds with custom parts) only with modern 4 stroke butt kicking technology! I raced my first race in 15 years last Sunday, for 2 1/2 to 3 laps my little 265cc 2 stroke was giving 450's with respected names engraved into the side of the engines fits. Plus giving up a 100+ pounds in body weight, Im 6'4" 335 pounds of old man. Only 3 laps you asks due to injury this was my 14th ride in a year and a half, 7th or 8th ride on a 2 stroke in 10 + years, 4th ride on this quad. Give me some seat time and that 3 laps will be to the end of the race. My Lobo only has around 7 Honda 250R pieces on it( counting engine cases and some gears as one), the rest is aftermarket or one off custom parts. Quad racing has always been about aftermarket parts, not like the bikes where you run most of the stock components, if you want a production class it should be run the way that it was produced, not highly modified. Heck Honda hasnt produced the 450R since 09, Suzuki isnt allowed to sell the LTR, so by your words we should only have the KFX,YFZ, and DS on the track?

If I had the coin, and the production rule was gone, you can bet I would have Natalie, Wiennen, Wimmer, Creamer, or Upperman on a 250R showing that the GOAT still is King of quads.

[RATPACK Z400]

There would need to be a class for running aftermaket frames ! Say a pro-stock class (450,s) and a pro unlimited class (unlimited cc,s, aftermaket frames,2 or 4 stroke ). That would be the way to go then the 2 VRS 4 stroke track battles begin ! let both aftermaket companys and manufactors have there classes ! and maybe someday in future manufactors jump back into racing and have teams again . Just my thoughts on it .

[K-Dub]

The pro class should be run what ya brung with a cc, width, and length limits only. Agree with above.