brake master upgrade?

[uchi]

i think i brought this up in a past post but it could have very well been a dream. anyway, as it looks im gonna have two extra brake masters kicking around. i just put a brembo on my zx6r track bike so ill have the stock master from that and one from a 00 gsxr 600 aswell. thinking of upgrading masters on my 400 to see if itll help in the stopping department a little. what do you guys think? good idea? worthless? pros cons lets hear them

[honda400ex2003]

you would have to check out the piston DIA on the 2 you have and compare them to what you have now. I cant help there but if they are bigger than what you have(i would assume both are probably bigger since they are pushing dual piston calipers) they would work better since they will put more pressure on the fluid which will increase the pressure on the pistons.

steve

[uchi]

well theyre both bigger, one pushes a dual 6 piston setup and the other a 4 piston so id imagine both would be better. i think ill throw one on for fun in the next little bit, why? why not :D

[honda400ex2003]

id throw the 6 one on there and get crazy. the thing will probably flip right over with a piston that big. lol steve

[uchi]

Lol i think ill throw it on this weekend and see how it works out for me

[honda400ex2003]

def that will be cool. i pmed you back on the piston info too. :D steve

[uchi]

replied. i think you should sell me your 416 kit since i sold you that carb. just throwing that out there :D

[honda400ex2003]

i like to keep spares though lol just in case i need it one day if i lose a piston or something. so thats the hard part, plus that cylinder is perfect too compared to the one i purchased on ebay over the winter. lol

steve

[NacsMXer]

Look at the casting on on the front of the master cylinder where the lever attaches. There should be a number there that indicates the master cylinder piston size.

The 400EX/450R has a casting mark that says "1/2", indicating a 1/2 inch piston size.

Most 600 street bike master cylinders are going to have a larger 5/8" piston. Putting that larger master cylinder on your 400EX and changing nothing else you will notice a big difference in the feel at the lever. Instead of the lever feeling spongy and easy to pull in, it will feel a lot firmer and harder to pull in....essentially a more confident feeling lever.

It would be a nice upgrade and should work fine. There have been others on this forum that have done the same swap in the past. Only downside is the street bike master cylinder reservoirs are not as compact as the factory ATV reservoirs.

[tri5ron]

uchi,
I'm sure you are already aware of this, and may be planning to do it, but since you or anyone else has not mentioned, or suggested it,...I would highly recommend putting Stainless Braided lines on ,along with a larger master.

Putting Stainless Braided lines, on the stock master, greatly improves stopping power all by themselfs.
So whats that tell us ?

It says that the stock brakelines are already swelling a little, even with the stock master.

If you put on a higher pressure master, you run a greater risk of blowing a line.
Stainless Braided lines would cover that base for you.

Just food for thought.

[jcs003]

another benefit to the larger master cylinder is; the increased oil capacity. this will allow longer run time before brakes start to fade. heat is a big issue with these small systems. that is why dot4 is recommended. once you get that fluid boiling forget about it.

[uchi]

thanks for the info guys. all good to hear. ive put alot of thought into this and agreed the stock lines need to go and theyre next ont he list. ill keep my eyes open for some cheap used ss lines as im also building a track bike right now and paying for my wedding thats coming up in june. so im trying to not throw around too much money :)

as for the reservoir, i was giving it some thought. the bike reservoirs are usually remote with a line unlike the stock atv unit thats a nice enclosed unit. so what i might try to do is what alot of track bike guys do and not run one at all. they bleed the brakes and then leave a few inch piece of hose coming out of the master with a screw in the end for a cap. that way if they crash theyre not gonna smash it and loose fluid and it seems to work well for them. so ill try that at first and if it works then great, if not then ill make a bracket for it.

[Thumpin440ex]

IMO a new cyl is a bit much work, unless it is a direct bolt on. The stock one is just fine. You need to put SS brake lines on it. Makes a great bit of difference.. But hey to each their own.. I have never felt brake fad, have did some long hard rides..

John

[JOHNDOE83]

Brake upgrade? check this out!

http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=437005&highlight=brakes

[uchi]

ill see what it takes to swap it over. its here, im interested in a free upgrade so ill see if it fits and how it works if it does. ss lines will be next. the problem is ill ride my street bike and then hop onto this thing and it feels like it doesnt stop at all. so id like a bit more feel in the brake lever. there have been a few times where i was on the brakes hard with lots of grip and she wasnt stopping in time, had to kick it out sideways, almost went off the steep side of a nice big steep ledge, all to avoid a huge hole that i hadnt seen on previous rides through there. must have taken a new side around a tree or something. regardless the brakes need upgrading so ill start with this and keep my eyes open for lines :)

and ive seen that yfz swap thread, i even looked for calipers when i first saw it but couldnt find any cheap enough back then

[CJM]

I got a set of stainless lines the kind where you replace the bolt at the master and run 2 separate lines.

After bleeding it with a vac bleeder the brakes are super super good. If anything they are almost too good, full lock up for me is BARELY pulling the lever. Well worth the upgrade and money spent.

Think the lines cost me 40 bucks.

[tri5ron]

CJM,
Can you post up a pic of those lines at the master cylinder ?
Thanks

[CJM]

Bit late now Ron, but Ill try and snap one tomorrow if I get some time.

For now, these are them (or a very similar one). They use a double banjo bolt at the master. I had to buy +2 b/c since they are 2 separate lines you need to route them as best you can-there is no splitter. Still for the cost i like them. The double banjo bolt does stick out further, but so far despite crashes and clipping stuff havent damaged it yet.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Front-Brake-Lines-Honda-TRX400EX-400EX-New-2-Line-Kit-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3ca86bbc3fQQitemZ26052 3670591QQptZMotorsQ5fATVQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

[uchi]

link has ended but i get what youre doing. id rather have too much brake than not enough and learn to modulate it.
i remember when i upgraded to full floating 320 mm rotors on my bike from semi floating 296 mm. lets put it this way, at about 140 mph i touched the brakes and i mashed my nuts off the gas tank, lol.

i found some cheap lines on ebay but they were listed up to an 02 400ex, mines an 03. what changed between the years?

[CJM]

Nothing has changed on the ex as far as brakes are concerned for all the years its been made except for maybe the newest models (but I doubt it).

On the link when you open it look for the <br> part and remove it and reload the page-it will work. Some kinda glitch in the forum or something with ebay.

[uchi]

oh yeah there it is, the br command was getting in the way, thats not a bad price. come to think of it i need a longer line for my street bike and new lines for my track bike with its new brake upgrade, i might aswell see how much more it would cost for lines for this thing and save on shipping by getting all 3 done at once :D

[CJM]

Ron, sorry it took me a bit but I remember to snap a pic. As you can see it uses a double banjo bolt and does stick out slightly further than the stock banjo bolt (maybe 1/4 inch)-but my brakes are SOLID. Like I said I can fully lock the fronts up pulling the lever in maybe 1/4-1/2" in. If anything for my liking they are to well bled and tight. I had to use a vac pump in order to bleed them.

http://i52.tinypic.com/2rm1ovk.jpg

I woulda taken some more pics showing routing but that means I need to yank the plastics. basically they go down and separate and are ziptied to the frame in such a way so that they go to each side. When they get to the a-arms I have some nice billet brake line clamps. For the price they cant be beat.

[uchi]

yeah that looks good, id imagine that would have been a real pain in the *** to bleed, i havent looked too far into our factory setup but its got one line coming off of it and im gonna assume like on my kawi it runs into a distributing block and then goes to each front wheel. i guess the only downside to that is that there are 3 lines rather than two. also looking at it today i think my kawi master should fit without much issue. i had to pull apart a fork on my street bike tonight and resolve an issue with that but i see myself doing the master swap this weekend. turns out the wife is gone and im sure ill get into trouble of some kind. last time she left me alone i cut a doorway connecting my garage to my workshop with a sawzall. :D

[uchi]

also before the vac pump did you try gravity bleeding them and then priming them to release any air? im just curious because if i end up going to a setup like that ill likely run into the same issues

[CJM]

I tried everything to get them to bleed right. No matter what I did I couldnt get a good feel at the lever.

I have a nice mitey vac bleeder and it worked great.

[honda400ex2003]

which side did you do first? outside one on the banjo or inside?

Ive heard that is by far the best setup but I like the clean look of only one lol, i dont even mind my stock lines and stock calipers lol. my asv lever really pushes it hard when i pull it all the way. steve

[uchi]

good to know, chances are ill end up in the same situation as you so ill have to borrow a buddies bleeder when im ready. what kind of pads are you running?

[CJM]

ebc severe duty. 2 years now and going strong-but I dont use the brakes that much lol.

[uchi]

i prefer trees too, lol

[honda400ex2003]

cjms nickname is flipper for a reason. :D


thats for ignoring my post marc. :p

steve

[tri5ron]

here ya go Steve,

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n148/tri5ron/Emoticons%20and%20funny%20pics/flipper.jpg

LOL ! ! ,
Sorry Marc, But I just couldn't resist

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n148/tri5ron/Emoticons%20and%20funny%20pics/popcornsmilie.gif

[honda400ex2003]

:D thanks ron! im keeping it this time. lol steve

[CJM]

Ya know steve I dont even remember now that I think about it. What I do know is I put the lines on them primed them by gravity bleeding them. It didnt do anything and I had poor lever feel. Then I tried to do the 2 man method by myself and still poor feel. Then I vac bled them and holy hell the lever is almost too tight. I think thats the downside to the 2 line setup. B/c there is no distribution block so both lines get full uninterrupted pressure period it seems. Im not quite sure, if it was a car and the brake pedal was hard I would say the brake boosters bad but these things dont have a booster lol...

Also I needed to run iirc +2 lines up front b/c of the way I had to route them. Stock or even +1 wouldnt have worked.



btw: I didnt even see your steve. Plus I havent crashed in a long time. Although 2 weeks ago I got hung up like 3x in 15 mins on junk. But the trails were really tight and I went on a ridge and it just slid too. Then the branches somehow got me hung up. You know what the sig says, I live by that motto lol

curse you Ron...curse you.. :blah:

[honda400ex2003]

lol ive never had any luck at all with the pump it manually method.

steve

[CJM]

I got the back brakes done that way, takes a bit tho.

I think the main reason is the masters are SO tiny on these thing that they dont push pressure.

Now funny thing is my back brakes have the same brand stainless lines, the calipers new and the pads are all new when i put it on-the pedal doesnt have nearly the feel the fronts lever does and I bled it with the pump too.

Really tho I seriously hardly ever use the brakes unless I want to some to a complete stop. otherwise I just lay off the throttle.

[uchi]

i didnt have any issues bleeding mine with the stock setup. ive had both calipers off for one reason or another, i think it had something to do with not being able to take them apart while on the machine so they had to come off and i think i ended up replacing hardware on them, been so long cant remember what. and the back was going metal to metal after a big day of hill climbs and eventually stopped working, had to rip that caliper apart like 4 times before it would stop sticking, lol.

getting hung up sucks, there have been many times where ive wished for a reverse gear. entering an obstacle that i knew id get stuck up to my *** in, or some off camber stuff that has one foot on the peg and the other on the seat and has most of the seat under water. not sure how she kept running but she did, lol.

lately ive been learnign how to pump wheelie this thing and just jump it through ditchs. so far its been successful, so far, im bound to fail not wheelie go in nose first and get tossed, lol.

oh real funny story about trying to be gentle in a residential area, haha. theres a park right beside my house i ride through to get to the trails. theres a ditch thats for rain water to drain off and there are a couple small bridges made of those big pipes, usually we go over them. one day i decided to go through it. i was running my current maxxis zillas on the rear. i walked into it to make sure it was a solid bottom, my intention was to go through it and not destroy it. bottom was a rock base. so i drop in and try to ride it without spinning. no such luck. i tried to be gentle, i tried to clean about it. wasnt happening. the front end ended up sliding off to the side so i was on a 45 degree angle in this ditch, by now i had started to tear up the wall on the exit which was extremely soft and the water had that dirty **** mud stink to it. so second gear, lots of throttle, clutch drop, standing on the pegs rocking side to side. took a bit but i got out. i destroyed this poor ditch, buried the back tires nearly to the axle in it and the zillas are real aggressive. wish i had a picture of it. looked like a bomb had gone off on there and took it apart, lol. ill do it again this year and ill mount the go pro or something to the quad cause itll make it that much funnier when theres a video :D

[CJM]

Reminds me of about a week ago. I ride in a large sand pit and one are has a lake they used to keep the dust down. Alot of people can ride the sandy wall that leads down to this lake and right back up to the other side (its a huge off camber wall about 300ft long or more). I tried it and just kept digging in no matter what I did. Friends of mine tried to pull it out, we tried to ride it out-just wouldnt go, I kept climbing half the wall and digging or just sliding sideways on the sand.

Finally figured out the shore of the lake was only about 6 inches of water, rode it for a good 1/4 mile till I found a spot to climb out..

Talk about a bad day.

[uchi]

Yup that's a bad day. Another bad day is trailering to the sand pits in my area for a full day of riding and 5 minutes out crashing into a tree and bending the lower control arm about 2 inches back. Made the rest of the day that much more interesting lol

[CJM]

Friend of mine hit something in the open sand pit that twisted his tierod up. We bashed it back in place with a rock we found and continued riding lol.

[uchi]

Haha nice. I kept going with my **** bent up. Made landing jumps interesting. Turns out later i not only bent it but broke the weld. Ill try and find the pic when i get home

[CJM]

Sounds like it was quite a fun ride that day lol.

I rode with a bent steering stem for months lol, it bent to one side about 1/2". Didnt effect much so I didnt care for awhile.

[uchi]

It was a great day it felt like i was constantly turning left. Lol i bent the stem on my 400 aswell hit a rut in high grass while turning slammed me into the bars it was a rough day

[uchi]

here you go, when i saw it was cracked i made te mistake of pulling it off to weld it while i tried to find another one, damn hard to do. and threw some paint on it to keep it from rusting. but you can see just how good i bent that ***** :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v96/turbocav/controlarm.jpg

[uchi]

and i did this after work today :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqOHW9ovKw8

[honda400ex2003]

nice bike there g. one day ill have to make it over there and ride with you. we can hit up some of the twisties around your place.

steve

[uchi]

thanks steve, weve got lots of them here, ride them for hours, not as nice as some of the mountains the guys run but we have a nice collection and depending on how far we go out we can run them and not see the same road twice all day