wont start after cr250 ignition install...

[jcs003]

as stated above.

do i need a different kill switch or something?

[DnB_racing]

any spark at all???

[jcs003]

Originally posted by DnB_racing
any spark at all???

i didnt check for spark. it started with the stock ignition.

tom at ESR said i might need a different kill switch but hes not sure. WTF!

[Jesse1980]

Originally posted by jcs003
i didnt check for spark. it started with the stock ignition.

tom at ESR said i might need a different kill switch but hes not sure. WTF!
mine worked fine, check the spark. It usually is somthing simple

[jcs003]

Originally posted by Jesse1980
mine worked fine, check the spark. It usually is somthing simple

if there was spark wouldnt it of started or at least tried to start??

[DnB_racing]

you have to start somewhere and checking if the spark is there or weak is a good starting point,

then check your grounds, check your stator for proper resistance, but I would first see what type of spark you have

[Honda 250r 001]

Be sure the coil is grounded well.

[jcs003]

maybe i need a different kill switch.

there are two types. normally open and normally closed. maybe i have the wrong one.

[jcs003]

Originally posted by DnB_racing
you have to start somewhere and checking if the spark is there or weak is a good starting point,

then check your grounds, check your stator for proper resistance, but I would first see what type of spark you have

its a brand new 2001 cr250 ignition from ESR.

[SilverLake250R]

It doesnt matter how new it is if you don't have a good ground....

You can just take the kill switch off and see if it sparks with the wires either closed or open...

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by jcs003
its a brand new 2001 cr250 ignition from ESR. so you are saying there is no spark??

you still should check its part of trouble shooting, you cant guess at anything, there is such a thing as factory defects,

what type of resistance do you have on your stator?
is there continuity to ground from your blk/white stripe wire?
without info everything is a guess

I can tell your aggravated but that doesn't mean you shouldn't make sure of the obvious!! relax and start toubleshooting from the beginning and it will lead you to the problem

[jcs003]

Originally posted by DnB_racing
so you are saying there is no spark??

you still should check its part of trouble shooting, you cant guess at anything, there is such a thing as factory defects,

what type of resistance do you have on your stator?
is there continuity to ground from your blk/white stripe wire?
without info everything is a guess

I can tell your aggravated but that doesn't mean you shouldn't make sure of the obvious!! relax and start toubleshooting from the beginning and it will lead you to the problem

no spark.

what are the specs for troubleshooting the cr ignition?

[1promodfan]

Be sure the harness and the coil is grounded. You MUST ground the coil.

[jcs003]

Originally posted by 1promodfan
Be sure the harness and the coil is grounded. You MUST ground the coil.

it is grounded. i grounded it to the same bolt one of the radiator support uses. the same place i had the sock ground.

if i connect the two wires that go to the kill switch together should that complete the circuit and allow it to start without the kill switch?

[steve250r]

Un hook the kill switch and leave the two kill switch wires unhooked. If they are connected it will not run. It will run without a kill switch.

[jcs003]

i just talked to ESR. they said the aluminum coil mount that goes on the frame is the ground for the coil itself. the green wire that goes to the frame is a different ground.

[K-Dub]

Both the stock 250R and the CR ignition are open kill circuits. Make sure you dont have a short somewhere in the kill circuit. And this one is stupid but Ive done it twice "if you have a tether switch make sure the tether is in place". Ive went as far as tearing the tank back off to look at the wiring to realize I just didnt have the tether in place. Aluminum does not conduct electricity as well as other types of metal, I would ground it with cooper wire. Also make sure where the aluminum connects to the frame is clean and is making good ground. Good luck.

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by K-Dub
Both the stock 250R and the CR ignition are open kill circuits. . whats an open kill circuit??

the 250r kill switch has open contacts at run.... no continuity when in the run position... so the contact would be a normally closed contact at rest, at rest is without the teather key installed!!

so that would make it a open run circuit wouldn't it??
and a closed kill if Im understanding what your saying??

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by jcs003
maybe i need a different kill switch.

there are two types. normally open and normally closed. maybe i have the wrong one.

My 01 cr 250 ignition is normally closed. meaning you connect the two wires to kill it, so if your confused, just try unplug your kill switch and kick it over and see if it has spark.

[jcs003]

got her to run. thanks for all the help. now time for the test ride:D

[snacob14]

what was the problem?

[wilkin250r]

Yeah, really. Don't just tell us you got it fixed, TELL US WHAT THE FIX WAS!

We've had a lot of talk recently about the CR250 igntion, and I've seen quite a few that have bought them. Somebody else might run into the same problem and could benefit from your experience.

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by DnB_racing
so the contact would be a normally closed contact at rest, at rest is without the teather key installed


Originally posted by Honda 250r 001
My 01 cr 250 ignition is normally closed. meaning you connect the two wires to kill it, so if your confused,

You guys have your terminology all goofy.

When talking about a circuit, the "normal" position is whatever state makes the circuit operate normally. In this case, that means RUNNING. Your kill switch is "normally open", because that's the operational status, when it's running. When you close it, it kills the circuit.

[jcs003]

Originally posted by snacob14
what was the problem?

sorry for not being specific.

the problem was: i didnt have the coil mounted to the coil mount that mounts to the frame. i hope that was understood.

anyways, i rode it for a bit today and there is noticeably more power. she will wheelie in fourth easy. this is surprising seeing how my carb feels rich still.

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by wilkin250r
You guys have your terminology all goofy.

When talking about a circuit, the "normal" position is whatever state makes the circuit operate normally. In this case, that means RUNNING. Your kill switch is "normally open", because that's the operational status, when it's running. When you close it, it kills the circuit. Wilkin you must have covered this the week before spring brake!!LOL

arnt all contacts rated in there denergized state??normal meaning at rest?

and the definition a normally closed is::a switch that returns to the closed position when the actuator (level or switch) is released

and the definition of a normally open:Relay or switch contacts that are open when the relay is not energized

making the kill switch a "normally closed"

I certainly hope im right or Ive got thousands of contacts to change LOL

[mx91a]

I'd have to say Wilkin has it right. If the kill switch was 'normally closed' the engine would not run unless you had your finger on the button (the energizing source to put it in relay terms) because the ignition would be grounded out when the switch is closed, completing the circuit between the ignition and ground (frame).

Pro Design Kill Switch (http://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/productDetail.do?navType=type&navTitle=Electrical&webTypeId=205&webCatId=20&prodFamilyId=9295)

The #1 quality atv kill switch
Used by most top atv champions
In order for kill switch to function on banshee, key switch must be disconnected.
Normally open type circuit switch.

[wilkin250r]

Yes and no. We're talking apples and oranges here.

Yes, the terminology for RELAYS is their de-energized state. If the contacts are closed when the relay coil has no power, then it's normally closed.

But we are talking about a switch, which doesn't really have a de-energized state. It stays in whatever position you put it in last. And to get really technical, we're not even talking about a switch, we're talking about a CIRCUIT. And in that case, "normal" is whatever state allows the circuit to operate under normal circumstances.

It's like an error light. Normally it's green, but if you get an error, it flashes red. Well, it's de-energized state isn't green, it's off. But we don't say that, we say normally green, because that's the normal operation of the circuit.

A "Normally Open" kill switch is designed so the ignition will RUN while it's open, it's normal operation. Tether IN is the normal operation of that circuit. It doesn't have an "energized" and a "de-energized" state. Normal is defined as operational.

That's how I've always known it in the engineering world.

[troybilt]

Do you need to ground this to the frame? Or jsut connect the ground wires from the hardness to the coil ground? I just installed mine last weekend, and don't want to run into the same problems. I have a coil mount as well, and didn't plan on running a seperate ground...

[jcs003]

Originally posted by troybilt
Do you need to ground this to the frame? Or jsut connect the ground wires from the hardness to the coil ground? I just installed mine last weekend, and don't want to run into the same problems. I have a coil mount as well, and didn't plan on running a seperate ground...

you must use the coil mount. it will be bolted to the frame.

the ground wire must also be bolted to the frame.

both are necessary for it to work.

i tried to start it without the coil grounded and it didnt work. i guess its just a different way to ground the coil. our OEM set-up has a wire that goes into the harness then is grounded to the frame.

i hope i made it clear.

[troybilt]

Basically, I have the ground wire from the harness and coil ground wire mounted to the same place on the coil mount. My coil mounted is not grounded to the frame due to the powder. Do I need to makesure its ground to the frame or just those 2 grounds need to be connected?

[jcs003]

Originally posted by troybilt
Basically, I have the ground wire from the harness and coil ground wire mounted to the same place on the coil mount. My coil mounted is not grounded to the frame due to the powder. Do I need to makesure its ground to the frame or just those 2 grounds need to be connected?

i didnt have to remove any paint/powder. i bolted the other ground/lead to one of the radiator mount bolts. also, i have just a simple pro-armour killswitch. i removed the lights and all the unnecessary components to run the ignition.

[troybilt]

Originally posted by jcs003
i didnt have to remove any paint/powder. i bolted the other ground/lead to one of the radiator mount bolts. also, i have just a simple pro-armour killswitch. i removed the lights and all the unnecessary components to run the ignition.

I did the same, no lights, and pro-design kill switch. Thanks... hopefully I won't have a problem.

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by wilkin250r
Yes and no. We're talking apples and oranges here.

Yes, the terminology for RELAYS is their de-energized state. If the contacts are closed when the relay coil has no power, then it's normally closed.

But we are talking about a switch, which doesn't really have a de-energized state. It stays in whatever position you put it in last. And to get really technical, we're not even talking about a switch, we're talking about a CIRCUIT. And in that case, "normal" is whatever state allows the circuit to operate under normal circumstances.

It's like an error light. Normally it's green, but if you get an error, it flashes red. Well, it's de-energized state isn't green, it's off. But we don't say that, we say normally green, because that's the normal operation of the circuit.

A "Normally Open" kill switch is designed so the ignition will RUN while it's open, it's normal operation. Tether IN is the normal operation of that circuit. It doesn't have an "energized" and a "de-energized" state. Normal is defined as operational.

That's how I've always known it in the engineering world. I see were your coming from about being a switch!! The one question I still have is on a teather, they are designed to fail with motor not running , as all saftie switches are ...so if im going to buy a teather wouldn't it be a normally closed??? cause if I was to use a open it would fail open and not kill the circuit,,


Designation which states that the contacts of a switch or relay are closed or connected when at rest. When activated, the contacts open or separated. Im looking at this as when you insert the tether key you are putting tension on the spring and removing from rest and activating the switch
im looking at this as being activated when you insert the tether key, am I looking at this backwards for this situation?? your saying activated is actually removing the key releasing the stored energy of the spring and putting the switch at rest??

[K-Dub]

Most tether switch's you can buy: Pro design, Gunnar killar, Pro Armor are considered a normally open circuit. Because in order for the circuit to operate normally it has to be open: as in allow the engine to run. When we close the circuit it kills the spark and shuts us off. I know you know how the kill switch works. My dad has been an electrician for 35 plus years and he taught me that on a CR and our 250Rs the kill circuit is known as a normally open circuit. This is because in its normal state IE: running the circuit is open. I learned this as a kid on my first CR80R Elsinore, broke the kill switch while he was at work and tried to complete the circuit by twisting the wires together and needless it wouldnt start. Dad came home and untwisted the wires and she fired right up, even as a 6 or 7 year old I felt like a dumbass not thinking to even try that.My reason not to try it was on how the lights in the house worked, close the circuit to get light.

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by troybilt
I did the same, no lights, and pro-design kill switch. Thanks... hopefully I won't have a problem. a good thing to do Troy is use a (No-lox) or some similar compound on all you ground connections to help avoid any corrosion or oxidation caused by galvanic action

on all my builds every bolt gets some sort of treatment, whether it be a locking agent, or a dielectric grease, or a conductive non corrosive agent (no-lox),
and Ive never had any grounding or seizing issues with this method, use a good dialectic on your pivot to help keep that from turning into a cathode from bad grounding

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by K-Dub
Most tether switch's you can buy: Pro design, Gunnar killar, Pro Armor are considered a normally open circuit. Because in order for the circuit to operate normally it has to be open: as in allow the engine to run. When we close the circuit it kills the spark and shuts us off. I know you know how the kill switch works. My dad has been an electrician for 35 plus years and he taught me that on a CR and our 250Rs the kill circuit is known as a normally open circuit. This is because in its normal state IE: running the circuit is open. I learned this as a kid on my first CR80R Elsinore, broke the kill switch while he was at work and tried to complete the circuit by twisting the wires together and needless it wouldnt start. Dad came home and untwisted the wires and she fired right up, even as a 6 or 7 year old I felt like a dumbass not thinking to even try that.My reason not to try it was on how the lights in the house worked, close the circuit to get light. ya I guess im thinking about it in a electrical way, instead of a mechanically activated device that controls an electrical device,

the kill switch is more of a dead mans switch, so yes activation is not really activating the switch by inserting the tether key as much as removing the key by means of the rider falling off and activating the switch to close,
but in the end its still the same logic that closed is off,

the way they are called normally open and normally closed isn't really a accurate description,
as contacts are rated in the rest, non energized state... but for the dead man's switch yes running is the normal position,

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by DnB_racing
am I looking at this backwards for this situation??

I think this is just one of those oddball situations, one of the exceptions to the rule of thumb.

I agree that the tether kill switch itself is, yes, normally closed, because you're putting a tether in to open it up, and it's no longer at its "rest" state.

However, think about how it evolved, BEFORE the introduction of the tether kill. Your normal kill switch on your handlebar doesn't have a "rest" state, it's not spring-loaded. So what would you describe as it's "normal" state? In that situation, "normal" would generally be described as it's "RUN" position, which is also the open position. Closing it kills the engine.

Therefore, the kill switch portion of the circuit is described as "normally open", because that's the position that allows for normal operation of the ignition.

Because the circuit is described as "normally open", then the tether kill switch is thus described as "normally open", even though (as you pointed out) that's not the normal "rest" state of the switch itself.

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by wilkin250r
I think this is just one of those oddball situations, one of the exceptions to the rule of thumb.

I agree that the tether kill switch itself is, yes, normally closed, because you're putting a tether in to open it up, and it's no longer at its "rest" state.

However, think about how it evolved, BEFORE the introduction of the tether kill. Your normal kill switch on your handlebar doesn't have a "rest" state, it's not spring-loaded. So what would you describe as it's "normal" state? In that situation, "normal" would generally be described as it's "RUN" position, which is also the open position. Closing it kills the engine.

Therefore, the kill switch portion of the circuit is described as "normally open", because that's the position that allows for normal operation of the ignition.

Because the circuit is described as "normally open", then the tether kill switch is thus described as "normally open", even though (as you pointed out) that's not the normal "rest" state of the switch itself. yes I just was thinking its actually a deadmans switch and the normal state of a deadmans switch is running ....Ok your were paying attention before spring break!!lol

[1promodfan]

Originally posted by jcs003
you must use the coil mount. it will be bolted to the frame.

the ground wire must also be bolted to the frame.

both are necessary for it to work.

You don't have to use the coil mount. The coil must be grounded like I said earlier. I have my coil grounded the same place as the rest of the harness.

[jcs003]

Originally posted by 1promodfan
You don't have to use the coil mount. The coil must be grounded like I said earlier. I have my coil grounded the same place as the rest of the harness.

well, you would need another wire going from coil to frame ground. no matter how it is done the coil must be grounded for it to run. that is basically, the problem i had. the OEM coil has a two wires and one is ground and the cr only has the one and thats what had me stumped at first.