Fix The National's

[mtr450]

How do you make the national better's without the factory's? It will be fun to here people opinion's and idea's

[blaster99]

Free entry and pay out in every class :D

But really the numbers seemed to drop, mostly in the B class. The nationals are already really fun, they are just to damn far away for most people.

[tjsdaname]

it would make a HUGE difference if we could get it live on speed like the bike nationals

[quad2xtreme]

divide the country in at least 4 regions then bring the top riders together at the end of the season for 3 National races...one east coast, one central, and one on the west coast. Riders should get paid enough just for showing up to the 3 Nationals that are by invitation only to the top placers in the regionals.

There is no such thing as a National IMO. It just happens to be the AMA sanctioned race series occurring mostly in the Eastern US.

[939yamaha]

have a northern five and southern five races whoever is in top ten in points in north and south after the five races meet together at the end of the year for a three moto format at lorrettas. whoever wins at lorettas is the national champ. the first five races are pretty much just district qualifiers. maybe have a drop one in the north and south. same championship, less races, and makes lorettas more of a big deal

[440racer66]

Originally posted by 939yamaha
have a northern five and southern five races whoever is in top ten in points in north and south after the five races meet together at the end of the year for a three moto format at lorrettas. whoever wins at lorettas is the national champ. the first five races are pretty much just district qualifiers. maybe have a drop one in the north and south. same championship, less races, and makes lorettas more of a big deal

i would be down for something like this.

[SRH]

drop the production rule

drop the pro am class

run a 450 class which would be t he premier class

a 250 class which would be the beginner pro pro class, just like with dirtbikes


this would open the door for companies like walsh, apex and others to field teams

utv class

drop any other production based classes over 90cc

then instead of 4 stroke and 265 and all these weird nonsense classes run 250cc , and 450cc a b c and age groups

[dan harris]

There should definately be Area Qualifiers and then regional qualifiers then a big weekend like the bikes have at Loretta's. You wouldn't have to race all over the country - you could qualify in your neck of the woods then go to the national and race others that have qualified to be there. Same way the amateur bike riders do.

[mtr450]

u guys sould send some ideas to the ATVA.

[protraxrptr17]

Originally posted by SRH
drop the production rule

drop the pro am class

run a 450 class which would be t he premier class

a 250 class which would be the beginner pro pro class, just like with dirtbikes


this would open the door for companies like walsh, apex and others to field teams

utv class

drop any other production based classes over 90cc

then instead of 4 stroke and 265 and all these weird nonsense classes run 250cc , and 450cc a b c and age groups

Good ideas. I completely agree with that.

[eastside 400]

if you made a 250 "lites" class it would have to be 12-15 yr olds and would not be like the dirtbikes lite class. A 250f in a quad will have no where near the power and the main thing, torque, to lug around a full size adult enough to actually race a national track.

[KingpinsEx]

Originally posted by eastside 400
if you made a 250 "lites" class it would have to be 12-15 yr olds and would not be like the dirtbikes lite class. A 250f in a quad will have no where near the power and the main thing, torque, to lug around a full size adult enough to actually race a national track.

X2 this just is not practical for atvs.

[SRH]

Originally posted by KingpinsEx
X2 this just is not practical for atvs.


yes it is...apex makes a 250f quad using a yz 250f powerplant, dont quote me but i beleive its nearly as fast as a out of the box 450 quad

the fact you guys say lug around barely pulling ann adult leads me to beleive you have no exprience with a 250 mx bike

i didnt mean a yamaha raptor class lol...even if it was werent guys like dustin nelson running them in a 250cc class at some of the quad cross races???


with the system i was talking about you could still keep the 200/300 class as a stepping stone, but 250f and 450f classes all 15+

[quad2xtreme]

Was thinking how nice one of those 250f quads would be for my wife instead of her 450r. She doesn't use the power of the 450r nor does she need it. She would have better weight to hp ratio on a 250f quad than I would on a 450r.

yea, off topic from the National's...250f class would be great.

[SRH]

i wouldnt swear to it but i think 250f push hp numbers in the mid to upper 30's.... whats a stock yfz or trx 450? 37-38hp?

[K-Dub]

I like the 2 pro class's and doing away with the pro am.

Have a 265cc pro class = to the 125/250 lites.

The premier 450 Pro class.

The Pro's run 12 races, divide the amateur up in to 3 divisions, each division has 3 races. The 11th race is a qualifier for the 12 race witch is your main event to decide amateur champions.

Rules for Pro class's
250 Pro:Engine must be 265cc or smaller- no stroke rules, 2 or 4 we don't care (MX bikes amateur runs 250 vs 250 straight up). Any frame as long as it fits a template IE not over 50" wide and the wheel base is under a certain limit.

Open Pro: Any CCs, any frame as long as it fits a template IE not over 50" wide and the wheel base is under a certain limit.

450 Pro (Premier class): any engine under 450cc 2 or 4 stroke. Any frame as long as it fits a template IE not over 50" wide and the wheel base is under a certain limit. Want to sleeve down a CR500 engine 50cc and put it in a quad frame bring it. Got a 403cc stroker Banshee bring it! Got a sleeved down Quadzilla bring it on! Any frame, this hopefully will bring Doug Roll and Mark Leager back into the frame game. Increased business for Wlash and LSR. Also if we are lucking this will bring back the engine company's teams that carried us through the 90s IE Duncan racing, CT racing, TC racing, and ESR. Some say going back to aftermarket frames raises cost, we survived the 90s on aftermarket frames, it worked and we survived with out the factory's then. It can work again.

These equipment rules fall down though the amateur class's with A, B, and C designations. Age class's are open as long as you fit the frame dimension rules.

[madskrillz2]

I think they should just separate the pros from amateurs like the bikes. Then have something like the bikes and qualifying for a Loretta Lynn type national for amateurs. Not necessarily at Loretta's but area qualifiers for like a 5 or 6 race series.

[dan harris]

yeah - instead of using Loretta's they can use Breezewood - just throwin it out there !!!! lol

[walker054]

just go to the races that you want to. just because there are 10 -12 races, doesn't mean you have to race 10- 12. i pick the couple that fit into my schedule and race them. some years that means 1 or 2 races. personally i hate lorretta's, would rather go to red bud, steel city, budds creek, unadilla, high point, daniel boone or echeconnee.

[Moser87m]

why would u get rid of pro-am its like bush to nascar its where the better A riders get a chance to be noticed before they enter the pro-class if u want to get rid of anything get rid of the 4 classes they have for the A,B and C classes and have maybe 2 what would u say to that ......? thats my idea,,, and i agree with the fact that the 250 idea b for up to 15 ,,, a big kid can hardly jump a big double on a worked 300 let alone on a 250......if u would put adults on a 250 that r already used to a 450 thats pushing almost double the horse power that u can maybe get out of a 250 ,,,, my bet is u would have a lot of hurt adults.....u guys have a lot of ideas ............but personly the only idea i like is Dans(luv ya man)......... i think everyone should do whats best for them,,,,,, thats just my opion......77/87's Dad

[KFX450Rrider490]

you guys realy have some open minds! i like the idea of the 250 lites class but i realy dont know if it would be enough for the bigger guys.

something i always thought was a great idea was the stock and open classes of the snomobiel industry. imo this would be the best of both worlds!

think about it the stock classes for the sleds are bone stock sleds, granted the are built just like the race bikes but who says they cant start doing this with the quads? then have the open class with mabe a 500cc limit, and no frame restrictions. except for gncc/ xc events the top pro riders could run both the stock and open classes, bringing more riders into all of the heats..

[motofreak2772]

Get rid of the production rule. The factories aren't helping us so why should we support them. It would be awesome if the pros ran the custom frames from LSR, Walsh, Laeger etc.

[Kovatch]

I know this comment isn't related to the classes, but has anyone noticed how unorganized staging is at most of the Nationals.

In 2005, we raced every round. Since then just a few per year. The best place was Unadilla. They had a dry erase board with the class name/number as to who is on the gate. Plus, they listed two lines for staged quads. It had a gate number and your name on the board for staging so you can stage without the "official" need of an official. Very much mindless and efficient.

Many of the other Nationals are horrible. Especially at Loretta's it is horrible. 200 racers all trying to hear the brunette scream into a megaphone while the motos rip holeshots right behind her. If they had something showing which of the 2 or 3 lines are what classes maybe things wouldn't be a nightmare for staging.

Just a thought.

[eastside 400]

i actually do have experience with 250f's considering i ride a CRF250 also. The HP numbers you are looking at are not correct at all for the application, a 250f might make 30-35 HP but that is in a bike, with one tire to turn, dirtbikes have alot less rotational mass and the bike is around 100 lbs lighter. A 250f in a quad would not be able to go as fast as you people are thinking, it would work good for a 300 class but not a "pro lites" class. Also, the cost of running a 250f in a quad would be crazy, you would have to ride that bike so hard that you would be doing valves and topends probably every 10 hrs and the transmissions are no where near strong enough to be used in a quad application with Pro caliber riders.

[SRH]

oh please!!! a pro on a 250f would turn faster laps than any b class and probably a class

yeah your hp to weight may not be as good as on the bike but the riding style will be completely diff it would make things interesting and i bet the pros would still jump the same jumps...it would be like racing mildly modded 400ex's....have you guys forgotten??

and yeah..it would be expensive if you ran a honda 250f in there :p

pro am is just pointless it just dilutes the talent pool...you shoudl either be pro or A

they might as well have classes for blondes and brunettes
if they decide to add anymore dumb classes

i think spectators who just go for a show get bored there is no difference to them in speed, you got slow lil faster, mildly fast, fast and really fast....and they cycle thru the classes at the rate of watching paint dry

a
b
c

a lites
b lites
c lites

kids classes

womens

age groups

pro

pro lites

side by side

those classes will keep it interesting for everyone , youd think the promoters would be interested in bringing in more cash, more intrest, and open up the classes for the companies at its core to keep it going

but instead its like there milking a dead horse

[1_5_1]

isnt pro am basically pro lites?

[K-Dub]

I agree a 250F has around equal horsepower to a 400EX, and they was and are raced. My idea of a 250 lites class allows the G.O.A.T. back also though. This will bring some excitement in its own right.

1 more thing I think needs added, QUAD TERRAIN CHALLENGE. When the WPSA first came out and I seen that they was racing 4x4 utes I thought great an hour show and Ill fast forward through the first 30min of the show. But instead I enjoyed it as much as the MX racing. For my friends that ride utes they loved and started watching it on their own. The QTC brings a wider audience to the table. I even had a couple friends that I had tried to get them to go to a national and wouldnt, beg me to take them to a WPSA race cause they wanted to see the QTC in person. The AMA dropped the ball in 2 places when the WPSA went under 1 didnt buy the TV time on ESPN2 the WPSA had. and 2 Let the QTC die.

[Moser87m]

its seems like most of u need to lay of the dope because its obviously fogging ur brain because ur trying to compare apples to dog food the funny thing is that most of u r at best a decent weekend warrior and most of u probably never been to a national,,,, so why r u trying to change things that dont even involve u,,,, and if u were involved with the nationals u would already know that they dont give a rats *** on what people think trust me i know we have been running them full time since 2005,,, i also think that the eastside 400 guy is the only 1 that knows what he,s talking about ,,,,do u even know what the average B rider and up has for horse power on their 450,s????? i'll give u a hint B to a good A rider 48 to 52 a real good A rider and up 52 to 60 plus ....... and u want them to ride a 250 that might make high 30,s dumb dumb idea ....

[SRH]

Originally posted by Moser87m
its seems like most of u need to lay of the dope because its obviously fogging ur brain because ur trying to compare apples to dog food the funny thing is that most of u r at best a decent weekend warrior and most of u probably never been to a national,,,, so why r u trying to change things that dont even involve u,,,, and if u were involved with the nationals u would already know that they dont give a rats *** on what people think trust me i know we have been running them full time since 2005,,, i also think that the eastside 400 guy is the only 1 that knows what he,s talking about ,,,,do u even know what the average B rider and up has for horse power on their 450,s????? i'll give u a hint B to a good A rider 48 to 52 a real good A rider and up 52 to 60 plus ....... and u want them to ride a 250 that might make high 30,s dumb dumb idea ....

as educated as you sound i disagree, there are rider who will exceed on a small bore that wont have it on the 450f the national tracks are all wide open regardless, the fast kids on raptor 250's were jumping everything the midpack a class riders jump

this is a hypothetical discussion, changing up the equipment is one thing to make it interesting, you can rant and rave about a 6 hp difference some kids parents paid 3k for but it all boils down to how good of a rider is on the quad

btw no i dont know what the average b rider has...but i guarantee he doesnt need it to turn the lap times hes turning...thats my point about what a lites class would make interesting, hp is there to bail you out of mistakes, the less hp you have the more the smooth rider is rewarded

[939yamaha]

dont know if i could disagree with yall more. 250f's would work too well in quads. look how the 150 supermini quads are compared to 150 dirtbikes. their alot slower. it would be the same concept. 250f's and 150f's just dont make the torque that race quads need.and as for quad has nothing to do with speed. take your fastest rider in A or B put them on a bonestock honda and see how they do

[KingpinsEx]

Originally posted by Kovatch
I know this comment isn't related to the classes, but has anyone noticed how unorganized staging is at most of the Nationals.

In 2005, we raced every round. Since then just a few per year. The best place was Unadilla. They had a dry erase board with the class name/number as to who is on the gate. Plus, they listed two lines for staged quads. It had a gate number and your name on the board for staging so you can stage without the "official" need of an official. Very much mindless and efficient.

Many of the other Nationals are horrible. Especially at Loretta's it is horrible. 200 racers all trying to hear the brunette scream into a megaphone while the motos rip holeshots right behind her. If they had something showing which of the 2 or 3 lines are what classes maybe things wouldn't be a nightmare for staging.

Just a thought.

I gotta agree here and whats really messed up, they just don't care. I was sitting at staging in steel city two years ago and did not hear the woman call my class. She obviously was not paying attention because my quad was sitting right in the middle of everyone. With it being my first national I did not know what to do, but all I can say is that is a long way to go and alot of money to spend, not to get to race both motos due to not being called! One way to improve the nationals would be to have an attitude adjustment with the people running them..

[motofreak2772]

The idea of a lites class is a good concept but a 250 would not have enough power for the quads. The way I see it is that our 450's are comparable to the 250 dirtbikes so instead of downsizing for a lites class we should create a larger quad for the pro class. I don't know if this idea is crazy and the weight would cancel out the power but if manufacturers produced 600cc engines for the quads it may be similar to the 450 in the dirtbikes.

[tjsdaname]

Originally posted by motofreak2772
The idea of a lites class is a good concept but a 250 would not have enough power for the quads. The way I see it is that our 450's are comparable to the 250 dirtbikes so instead of downsizing for a lites class we should create a larger quad for the pro class. I don't know if this idea is crazy and the weight would cancel out the power but if manufacturers produced 600cc engines for the quads it may be similar to the 450 in the dirtbikes.


not gonna lie..... bigger quads for the pro's is a stupid idea...
they already have as much power as they need. and if a manufacturer made a quad with a 250 dirt bike engine in it, it would easily haul an adult around a national track... a raptor 250 could, and its a ****ty engine.

[motofreak2772]

Originally posted by tjsdaname
not gonna lie..... bigger quads for the pro's is a stupid idea...
they already have as much power as they need. and if a manufacturer made a quad with a 250 dirt bike engine in it, it would easily haul an adult around a national track... a raptor 250 could, and its a ****ty engine.
That's just like the 250's with the dirtbikes.. They have enough power for any amatuer rider and even the pros. 450's are almost overkill because everything can be done with a 250. The bigger engine just makes those riders using all of the 250's power even faster. So quads with bigger engines will only make the racing faster aswell. With more speed our pro's will run closer lap times to the bikes(I know it is totally different riding but I'm just saying more power will make up for the extra weight).
It's just an idea to make the lites concept work. It doesn't even need to be exactly like that, it could be like 350s and 550s or whatever number manufacturers decide to produce. This is why I say get rid of the production rule so the racers can control how things are setup. Then after a couple years the factories will build quads to compete in our newly setup classes and maybe even start sponsoring riders to try and sell their new quads.

[tjsdaname]

Originally posted by motofreak2772
That's just like the 250's with the dirtbikes.. They have enough power for any amatuer rider and even the pros. 450's are almost overkill because everything can be done with a 250. The bigger engine just makes those riders using all of the 250's power even faster. So quads with bigger engines will only make the racing faster aswell. With more speed our pro's will run closer lap times to the bikes(I know it is totally different riding but I'm just saying more power will make up for the extra weight).
It's just an idea to make the lites concept work. It doesn't even need to be exactly like that, it could be like 350s and 550s or whatever number manufacturers decide to produce. This is why I say get rid of the production rule so the racers can control how things are setup. Then after a couple years the factories will build quads to compete in our newly setup classes and maybe even start sponsoring riders to try and sell their new quads.

you do realize that the pro 450 quads are running about the same lap times as the pro 450 dirt bikes right?
in 2010 at red bud chad wienen was putting down laps that were like 6 seconds faster then the fastest bikes on the exact same track....

[motofreak2772]

Originally posted by tjsdaname
you do realize that the pro 450 quads are running about the same lap times as the pro 450 dirt bikes right?
in 2010 at red bud chad wienen was putting down laps that were like 6 seconds faster then the fastest bikes on the exact same track....
Yeah I remember something like that. That's pretty crazy but it just depends on the track. Cornering is different for quads and bikes but I'm just talking general speed. Equal power + lighter weight = faster riding.

[Lquad71]

if power is really the problem for a 250 like some would say for a quad, perhaps a high-performance water cooled 300 or 350?
Just an idea

[scotturban]

the transponder deal is a bad one...

[trompen542]

We build a 250 based quad, with a light weight frame, and all the goodies, what a lot of you are forgetting is the power to weight ratio on the 250's is, they are about 80 to 100 pounds less then the 450's, so it all equals out. I am 215 lbs, and have no problem getting around a track on one. We ran a rmz 250 in ours, and the motors, had no problems with breaking trannys, clutches, or had any more maintance then the 450's we have. I am sure when the apex has a little time on it it will show what they can do. Jody at jb makes a smaller version for the kids, and you see them out west all the time. I think it would be good to run it as a pro lights class, because not everyone is 6 foot tall, and weighs 175. I would really like to see a smaller rider like Joel Hetrick on a 250, to see what they can really do.

[axellmusic19]

If a production rule is dropped, (which I am a fan of) would two-strokes be allowed again? This might now open up more people to the idea of 250's. Just wondering but don't shoot me...