So did it work?

[slightlybent47]

Our wonderful president said all we needed was a stimulus package to help boost the economy. So he spent over 700 billion dollars and another 750 billion on bail outs for a total of 1 ½ trillion dollars.
And what do we have to show for it?
We still have a weak economy and very few jobs. The companies that received this money have not started rehiring, they have discovered that with a down sized work force that is working for less money then they were before, there profit margin has increased to record levels. Yet they are not hiring new workers because of this. So what was all the money spent on?
Looks like all that happen is big companies got richer and the little guys went under.

Thank you Mr. President you said we need hope and change. The only hope I have is when I reach in my pocket I will find some change.

[trailrider894]

Can i get a BIG i told you so??!?!?!? Looks like the conservative right wingers were correct.... AGAIN!!!!!

http://johngaltfla.com/blog3/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/i-told-you-so1.jpg

[trailrider894]

We all knew this was gonna happen..... Our president is a DUMB @$$ and shouldn't even be allowed to live in this country.... For heavens sake, i know twelve year olds and blonde movies stars that could do a better job... and no... i am not kidding.

[beastlywarrior]

eh its getting better around here, what he did accomplish though is stop the downward spiral in the market

[biker]

im not too far from you beastly warrior and you my friend still have
the covers over your head, must be like all the rest of the Obama supporters that voted this idiot in the office.:o

[Ruby Soho]

We'd be in the same position if McCain was in office. The president doesn't decide ****, its all the other greedy *******s in the government that decide for what benefits them best and could give two ****s about us working class people.

I'm not huge on Obama, but there's nothing you can tell me that will convince me that McCain would have done that's so much better, and actually happened. Or anyone else.

Every candidate says all this great ****, and none of it will happen. Plus Bush put us so far down the ****ter its going to take years to climb back out of.

Get real.

[beastlywarrior]

nope im actually a conservative country boy but i recognize that if mccain was in office there'd be a post like this b*#!%ing about him

[slightlybent47]

Originally posted by beastlywarrior
eh its getting better around here, what he did accomplish though is stop the downward spiral in the market

“Really” you bought that crap? The economy would have fixed itself as it always has in the past. He should have let the market take its own course and we would be much better off by now and we wouldn’t be deeper in debt.



Originally posted by Ruby Soho
We'd be in the same position if McCain was in office. The president doesn't decide ****, its all the other greedy *******s in the government that decide for what benefits them best and could give two ****s about us working class people.

I'm not huge on Obama, but there's nothing you can tell me that will convince me that McCain would have done that's so much better, and actually happened. Or anyone else.

Every candidate says all this great ****, and none of it will happen. Plus Bush put us so far down the ****ter its going to take years to climb back out of.

Get real.


So the question is would Mc Cain have spent 1 ½ trillion dollars on stimulus and bail outs that benefited only those who helped get us into this mess in the first place. The free market would have fixed itself just as it has in the past. Never before in our history has a president forced a bill on us that and even with strong opposition against it. The bill was never even read or understood by those that helped force it through.

[Ichoptop]

the President doesn't make descisions. He is the figure head. He can't do anything without votes from both houses. Since you didnt know this simple fact your opinion on the situation is probably without any factual basis as well.

Also if you remember the unemployment rates were increasing drastically the last year of former President Bush's administration's tenure. Since they were in office for seven years before this happened I would put more blame on thier heads then our current administration. Just as many put the 9-11 issue on Bush's head you must remember he was only in office a short time when it happened so my blame would be on Clinton and his administration since they decided not to persue the first WTC bombing.

The whole market collapse was kick started by the housing collapse, until they both ran themselves into the ground side by side. President Carter was the originator of the housing for all laws and pushed banks into over credit for Americans.

Please get ALL the facts before you try to make a point about a topic that has so many sides.

After 2 years of doing nothing at work (thankfully I never was dismissed as a lot of my friends and co workers were) we are now as busy as we have ever been and I have a stack of apps on my desk for positions I need to fill. I personally dont think the Obama administration has much to do with it as I think mostly the market goes in trends. It will climb slowly for the next 10-12 years and we will get hit again.

The one thing to remember and learn from all of this is that CREDIT IS BAD. If you dont have it in your pocket in cash, you dont need it.
It is kind of like getting scared straight. I payed off my credit cards and the second on my house. I refied my 1st mortgage at the lower rates and am trying to make double payments. If I own it the bank cant take it.

[slightlybent47]

Originally posted by Ichoptop
the President doesn't make descisions. He is the figure head. He can't do anything without votes from both houses. Since you didnt know this simple fact your opinion on the situation is probably without any factual basis as well.

Also if you remember the unemployment rates were increasing drastically the last year of former President Bush's administration's tenure. Since they were in office for seven years before this happened I would put more blame on thier heads then our current administration. Just as many put the 9-11 issue on Bush's head you must remember he was only in office a short time when it happened so my blame would be on Clinton and his administration since they decided not to persue the first WTC bombing.

The whole market collapse was kick started by the housing collapse, until they both ran themselves into the ground side by side. President Carter was the originator of the housing for all laws and pushed banks into over credit for Americans.

Please get ALL the facts before you try to make a point about a topic that has so many sides.

After 2 years of doing nothing at work (thankfully I never was dismissed as a lot of my friends and co workers were) we are now as busy as we have ever been and I have a stack of apps on my desk for positions I need to fill. I personally dont think the Obama administration has much to do with it as I think mostly the market goes in trends. It will climb slowly for the next 10-12 years and we will get hit again.

The one thing to remember and learn from all of this is that CREDIT IS BAD. If you dont have it in your pocket in cash, you dont need it.
It is kind of like getting scared straight. I payed off my credit cards and the second on my house. I refied my 1st mortgage at the lower rates and am trying to make double payments. If I own it the bank cant take it.

I have the facts, thank you.
I didn’t go into when it all started or why it happened, that wasn’t my point. The president lead the way to the bail out and stimulus, he could have easily vetoed the bill down and gotten more senators and house representatives to stop the ridicules solution he and his cronies came up with. Just throwing money at a problem is what helped get us here in the first place. The point I was trying to make is I believe the market would have fixed itself without any help form the government. The fact is it has done nothing that I can see to prevent a recession. Instead it rewarded those responsible for some of the problems we are having.

[feuerstack411]

LOL at all the ignorant uneducated people ITT

[ben300]

Originally posted by feuerstack411
LOL at all the ignorant uneducated people ITT

i take it your a liberal?

because this is a standard rebuttal from liberals when discussing president obama and his policies...

..when people dont agree with them...they are instantly uneducated

[CJM]

Originally posted by Ichoptop
the President doesn't make descisions. He is the figure head. He can't do anything without votes from both houses. Since you didnt know this simple fact your opinion on the situation is probably without any factual basis as well.
he does make some decisions, he has final say on any bill that gets signed into law incase you have forgotten. He also uses his personally appointed cabinet to do his bidding for him. Also doesnt help the democrats were in charge again either, always pushing for more social welfare programs.




Also if you remember the unemployment rates were increasing drastically the last year of former President Bush's administration's tenure. Since they were in office for seven years before this happened I would put more blame on thier heads then our current administration. Just as many put the 9-11 issue on Bush's head you must remember he was only in office a short time when it happened so my blame would be on Clinton and his administration since they decided not to persue the first WTC bombing.
Economy is cyclic, almost like a pendulum. It continually moves back and forth and sometimes reaches a happy medium for awhile (think of the late 90's). Bush like his predecessor Clinton inherited problems that began LONG ago with many past presidents. Were talking about 100 years in the making.

Simply put the fact of the matter is it caught up on us finally. 9-11 could have been prevented-clinton cut the funding of spy programs that would have found it out. It also didnt help we tried to kill osama 3-4x before hand and he figured it out (yes we sent cia ops in there as well as used indigenous peoples in other attemps). Agreed also clintons fault we did nothing about WTC bombing number 1.



The whole market collapse was kick started by the housing collapse, until they both ran themselves into the ground side by side. President Carter was the originator of the housing for all laws and pushed banks into over credit for Americans.
President carter is to blame quite a bit for this. The housing market and the subprime loans and fluctuating rates are the biggest to blame. it should have never been allowed-but everyone was to busy lining their pockets. Fact of the matter is people who couldnt afford the home should have been denied, instead they were approved.

Main thing everyone must remember is social programs that were totally govt funded began with FDR. he is the reason to blame for ALOT of our problems. Want to go even further back, good old honest abe is the reason for the war of northern aggression. it has very little to do with slaves and alot to do with urbanization, pocket lining and industrialization. Slaves were used as a scape goat to jumpstart it (this coming from a NJ yankee btw). This war began what many deem to be the time the govt took control of the states and stripped away the rights they had. Prior to the civil war, the US was referred to as "These United States" (plural..these!) a nation made up of many in effect city states that operated autonimously fromt he fed govt. About 90% of the bs that goes on now is illegal by very nature of the constitution since the states hold the power-not the govt-but somewhere along the line someone made sure it was reversed. Good example is the federal gun laws, the federal govt actually has ZERO authority according to the const to do anything-the states do-but someone decided an armed nation was dangerous-thus they continually try to remove the arms we have (good luck, there are more guns in private hands than people in this country).

Anyways, FDR created social programs due to the depression, which was caused by a runaway stock market that crashed despite the many warnings. His social welfare programs were furthered by johnson who not only created even more social welfare programs, but left us with generation of generation, of generation on them cause why bother working when they get provided for. They acclimated to the life of being provided for so why bother is there tude.

Then we have the democrats, Im not saying one party is really better than the other-what I will say is the fore runners in the democratic party have been slowly causing a meltdown and creating more govt programs and dependency, killing the regular joe sixpack workers with taxes, removing the middle class in effect. The republicans arent much better if marginally at that.

We also have a federal deficit thats not actually accurate nor accountable in the trillions of dollars. What are they doing to cut spending-they say they are doing this or that-but in reality NOT A DAMN thing is being done. Reason or economy is so poor is our money is worth nothing. They just keep artificially inflating it by never letting the printing presses stop. 10 years ago I was in canada on a trip, our money was worth 1.50 or so vs theres, now there moneys worth more-inflation is making sure our money is becoming devalued by the second.

Basically our country is turning into a socialist nation. Where the govt rules and you have very little say. Similar in nature to communism-just somewhat more relaxed. As time wears on it seems more and more people have a growing distrust and hatred of whats going on, more and more see whats going on these days as well. Its gonna come to a head and sooner or later its gonna pop like the ginormous zit it is.

There is no real "fix", we can try fixing it, which it seems we have tried before, but the politicians mostly dont care and the ones who want it fixed cant get anywhere. Until you remove the elected idiots you wont get anywhere, try removing them and it seems you cant. Oh but wait you say, they will eventually die-plenty more to fill the spots they vacate that think just like them. We live in a nation full of people who seem to feel that they all deserve everything for nothing. An entitled nation of fools!

When that day finally happens you better be ready, cause theres gonna be a whole load of people cying "but hey,w heres mine..I need it, I always got it before!!!" once they find out the parties over, all hell will break loose. If Katrina was any indication of how people who have no food, water and shelter will react I pray you all have firearms and know how to use them, along with plenty of things to eat and drink-cause its gonna be one bumpy ride. If your SOL, sorry-stick your head between your legs and kiss your arse goodbye!


Originally posted by feuerstack411
[B]LOL at all the ignorant uneducated people ITT

If your really from italy and not just living there, please dont comment on our country and its policies.

[rbgnwa45]

I'm Canadian, and I think I'd make a great politician.

Keep it simple stupid. Your intentions will always make or break you. It's too bad that loads of people have DIFFERENT INTENTIONS! Eventually everyone will have to settle or it's just going to be a gigantic ****-storm forever.

We don't give the president the power to do whatever he wants. The people still make the decisions.

I don't know much about politics, but they ought to be simple, otherwise it's like those insurance commercials ("egg management fee ;)"). We all need to eat ETC, and we should all have equal opportunities, but not if it puts you miles ahead of the other guy, the guy who'se doing more work, work that actually helps us grow - IE sports figures making $10M/year is just pointless when the woman sewing clothes for needy kids does it for free. Give me a f'ing break! WHERE'S YOUR HEAD AT?!

Why is health care still privatized? Until you care about the stranger beside you, why should that stranger beside you care about your financial situation?!

Talk about trickle up & down economics. It's the same as always. The rich guy gets richer and the poor guy gets poorer, then people turn around and complain about the poor people doing crime.

Obama won because:

1) he's not an idiot like Bush, he's a great public speaker, and he sounds like he's got a great head on his shoulders

2) he's not an old guy like Mccain. I'll bet most people are younger than him, and they see that generational difference. Somehow it's factored in, which is stupid. Young people relate old people as trying to tie the young people down with their crazy rock music and skateboards.

3) we eventually had to have a black president. 13% of people in the states are black, so that means more white people voted for him.

I don't think everyone should have the right to vote - look who'se doing the damn voting. Look at all of the idiots. There should be a screening process.

Voting and having a president is stupid because having a government is for means of moving a mass of people in one general direction, which isn't happening! The only thing you should be able to vote for are things that DON'T MATTER AT ALL! There are obvious things that need to be handled first, and if you don't recognize that for your country than you simply shouldn't vote.

Free breakfast at Denny's... thanks. Thanks a lot. Now feed me for the other 364 days or you're just wasting EVERYONE's MONEY!!!!!

I tells you this is all rich people's faults :ermm:. What do you need a hundred million dollars to yourself for anyways?

[CJM]

Obama didnt win, he was installed.

He was until 5 years ago: A small, little known politician from IL who somehow mixed it up with the right bunch and they propped him up and created him in their image.

It is still not proven if hes an american citizen. If he was and it was on record, then why is it still being covered up and hush hush.

Just like Hoover killed JFK, someone installed Obama.

BTW, what you propose is socialism.Look it up and see just how good and how well its worked out for others.

I will admit right now that our politicians are not concerned at all with the economy, the direction the country is going, or much else. What they are interested in is working a job where they get paid for very little actual work, create laws that benefit or dont even apply to them (b/c your a congress member it exempts you-at least they seem to get away with it) or laws that are for the "good" of the people. If you saw some of the things they actually voted on you would laugh its so pathetic.

[CJM]

Here..enjoy this food for thought:

Numbers dont lie, I found the change-its called hyper inflation (which we are very close too). Hey, he said he was gonna give us change-just never said which direction. Say all you want bad about GWB, but during his terms in office I dont think we were ever this bad off.

Just look at the prices of oil corn, unemployment, national debt, poverty rate...

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/01/report_card_on_obamas_first_tw.html

http://iowntheworld.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Picture-21.jpg

[ben300]

Originally posted by rbgnwa45
I'm Canadian, and I think I'd make a great politician.

I don't know much about politics


sentence fragment 1, and sentence fragment 2, should automatically disqualify you from this discussion...especially sentence fragment 2...

you go on to talk about uneducated people...and that not everyone should have the right to vote...


[i]I don't think everyone should have the right to vote - look who'se doing the damn voting. Look at all of the idiots. There should be a screening process.[/B]


well you sir, are uneducated in terms of politics, therefore, by your logic, you should not have the right to vote...

[slightlybent47]

Sorry I forgot in 2012 the world comes to an end anyway so why does it mater?lol

[slightlybent47]

Originally posted by rbgnwa45
I'm Canadian, and I think I'd make a great politician.

Keep it simple stupid. Your intentions will always make or break you. It's too bad that loads of people have DIFFERENT INTENTIONS! Eventually everyone will have to settle or it's just going to be a gigantic ****-storm forever.

We don't give the president the power to do whatever he wants. The people still make the decisions.

I don't know much about politics, but they ought to be simple, otherwise it's like those insurance commercials ("egg management fee ;)"). We all need to eat ETC, and we should all have equal opportunities, but not if it puts you miles ahead of the other guy, the guy who'se doing more work, work that actually helps us grow - IE sports figures making $10M/year is just pointless when the woman sewing clothes for needy kids does it for free. Give me a f'ing break! WHERE'S YOUR HEAD AT?!

Why is health care still privatized? Until you care about the stranger beside you, why should that stranger beside you care about your financial situation?!

Talk about trickle up & down economics. It's the same as always. The rich guy gets richer and the poor guy gets poorer, then people turn around and complain about the poor people doing crime.

Obama won because:

1) he's not an idiot like Bush, he's a great public speaker, and he sounds like he's got a great head on his shoulders

2) he's not an old guy like Mccain. I'll bet most people are younger than him, and they see that generational difference. Somehow it's factored in, which is stupid. Young people relate old people as trying to tie the young people down with their crazy rock music and skateboards.

3) we eventually had to have a black president. 13% of people in the states are black, so that means more white people voted for him.

I don't think everyone should have the right to vote - look who'se doing the damn voting. Look at all of the idiots. There should be a screening process.

Voting and having a president is stupid because having a government is for means of moving a mass of people in one general direction, which isn't happening! The only thing you should be able to vote for are things that DON'T MATTER AT ALL! There are obvious things that need to be handled first, and if you don't recognize that for your country than you simply shouldn't vote.

Free breakfast at Denny's... thanks. Thanks a lot. Now feed me for the other 364 days or you're just wasting EVERYONE's MONEY!!!!!

I tells you this is all rich people's faults :ermm:. What do you need a hundred million dollars to yourself for anyways?


It’s funny when you talk about a subject that has so many elements and because it would take a book sized post to cover it all. There will always be someone to bring up the one thing you didn’t cover in your post and pick it apart and say you’re uneducated or that you just shouldn’t vote. Stay in Canada and continue to pay all those taxes and stand in line for all your handouts.

[finsteratv]

Originally posted by slightlybent47
Sorry I forgot in 2012 the world comes to an end anyway so why does it mater?lol
JUST WATCH nothing will happen
and i'll be one of the many laughin ang yelling i told you so :) .....or it will end an i wont be so happy haah

[rbgnwa45]

I still proved my point. I wouldn't care if I couldn't vote if I knew the more educated people could. I'd be fine with that. Don't try to tell me you know everything about politics because as you said "it would take a huge post" to explain all of it, but then I could just pick something you missed and pick you apart. So it really doesn't matter if I say I'm not educated in politics - they ought to be simple. When something comes up you do the right thing, and you don't have to go to a prestigious school to do that. I wouldn't have to understand economics because if everyone lived as if they weren't screwing over the next guy then everyone is financially covered. Principality & morals would solve that. Money isn't just going to sit there and fix itself, therefore people are the only way to solve things! DUH!

I'd gladly let the government take the same percentage off everyones salary for health care. What I call being a good person you call standing in line to collect hand outs? :o Do you consider that communism?!

You're making it sound like politics is supposed to be confusing enough so that nobody understands it so that you can get away with things :huh. Governing shouldn't be left to matters of vastly differing opinions - isn't there a right & wrong way to do something? There shouldn't be any gray areas, and that's a no-BS mind state for you. It's a bunch of idiots and smart people trying to get their way.

I know what you guys vote on :ermm:. Like I said, the only things that should be voted on are things that really don't matter because everything else should be a done deal, the answers should be clear.

If I campaigned to be your president, I'd put money on you voting for me.

Who'd you vote for? :confused:

[Quad18star]

Originally posted by slightlybent47
Stay in Canada and continue to pay all those taxes and stand in line for all your handouts.

Funny thing is ... after paying all those taxes, Canada faired the downturn during the recession MUCH stronger than most countries... in fact many nations took our economic model and applied it to their own country to get them out of the slump. Go figure, Eh ????

To go back to the OP, if it weren't for the bailouts ( as much as I hate seeing companies bailed out over their own stupidity) , the whole US economy would have collapsed...you could have added another 100 million people to the list that had already lost their jobs. The bailout was about saving whatever little was left and without it, the greenback would have lost all it's value, since China has valued their money so low. It's my view that your people in head office made the right decisions . You either inject the cash needed to keep your economy bobbing in the water, or you let it all sink and lose the status as the world superpower.

[ben300]

Originally posted by rbgnwa45
I still proved my point. I wouldn't care if I couldn't vote if I knew the more educated people could. I'd be fine with that. Don't try to tell me you know everything about politics because as you said "it would take a huge post" to explain all of it, but then I could just pick something you missed and pick you apart. So it really doesn't matter if I say I'm not educated in politics - they ought to be simple. When something comes up you do the right thing, and you don't have to go to a prestigious school to do that. I wouldn't have to understand economics because if everyone lived as if they weren't screwing over the next guy then everyone is financially covered. Principality & morals would solve that. Money isn't just going to sit there and fix itself, therefore people are the only way to solve things! DUH!

I'd gladly let the government take the same percentage off everyones salary for health care. What I call being a good person you call standing in line to collect hand outs? :o Do you consider that communism?!

You're making it sound like politics is supposed to be confusing enough so that nobody understands it so that you can get away with things :huh. Governing shouldn't be left to matters of vastly differing opinions - isn't there a right & wrong way to do something? There shouldn't be any gray areas, and that's a no-BS mind state for you. It's a bunch of idiots and smart people trying to get their way.

I know what you guys vote on :ermm:. Like I said, the only things that should be voted on are things that really don't matter because everything else should be a done deal, the answers should be clear.

If I campaigned to be your president, I'd put money on you voting for me.

Who'd you vote for? :confused:

first of all, i wouldnt vote for you...

one the basis of several different reasons.
1) i do not trust any man who would give away his right to vote, just because he thinks there is someone else out there that is smartter than him, or more educated. I firmly believe that there are millions of americans who may be more intelligent than i am, but i also do not believe that jsut because all of these americans are educated more than myself, that they would vote with my best interests at heart..if i didnt know or understand what was going on wiht my nations politics, simply because i did not understand, then it is my god given obligation and duty to go out, research, understand, and develop my own opinion and idea on the issue at hand. its people like you, who blindly follow others's decisions like sheep, are the primary reason why pathetic excuses of politicians get elected into office....this leads me to

2) politics are as far from simple as can be empathetically possible. when you are discussing politics, you are discussing decisions, that are made by a very small few, that affect hundreds of millions of people. this is far from being simple. every decision that they make has some consequence in their constituents lives, whether or not those people realize it or not...this leads me to

3) you say to do the right thing...the right thing, when dealing witt millions of people, all who see taht thing through their own eyes, in millions of different ways, the right thing becomes an extremely, and i mean extremely, blurred, confused, and squiggly line.

who is to say that one decision is right, more than the next. who is to say that raising taxes ,5,10,15% to help pay for non working peoples entitlements is the right idea. i do not believe in that, i know there are millions of people who feel the same. there are also millions of people that feel exactly opposite of how i feel...there are millions of people who dont care, adn there are millions of people who are unsure of this decision....this is why thinking between right in wrong is not always right when dealing with such large decisions..

what if president roosevelt had decided to not enter WWII after the attack on pearl harbor, simply because he thought it was wrong and not right to go after the japanese, regardless of what they did.....you know what, if we had gone by that logic, we'd all probably either be speaking german or japanese at this point..

4) not everyone is out there living trying to screw over the next guy. that is simply not how it is. this is the mentality of those who believe they are owed something. the government doesnt owe you anything.. i dont owe you, your mom, grandma, aunts, uncles, or john and jane doe anything. neither do my neighbors or anyone around me..

what i call being a good person, is if you have the extra money, and dont need it, DONATE THAT TO CHARITY...the federal government should have no right to take my money that i worked for. this is why i disagree with the federal income tax. the states are the ones who should have the right to tax citizens. i feel the government already takes to much from a vast some, and gives it to a very little.

and yes...standing inline, to collect handouts, when you could go out and get it yourself, is communism, it is socialism...it is worthlessism....

i have no problem having some of my earnings goign to handicapped people, or children...but not to 40 year old porch rats that never worked a day in their life and are sitting, living fatter than i am.

5) by your logic, if hte only things that should be voted on are things like the price of a can of tunna, how many times they play miley cyrus songs on the radio, and what color should school buses be. these are all thigns that really dont matter.


this and a million and a half other reasons are why i would not vote for you, or anyone who thought like you..

go ahead..put your savings and your house and car on the table..ill take the bet.....i wont vote for ya

[slightlybent47]

Originally posted by ben300
first of all, i wouldnt vote for you...

one the basis of several different reasons.
1) i do not trust any man who would give away his right to vote, just because he thinks there is someone else out there that is smartter than him, or more educated. I firmly believe that there are millions of americans who may be more intelligent than i am, but i also do not believe that jsut because all of these americans are educated more than myself, that they would vote with my best interests at heart..if i didnt know or understand what was going on wiht my nations politics, simply because i did not understand, then it is my god given obligation and duty to go out, research, understand, and develop my own opinion and idea on the issue at hand. its people like you, who blindly follow others's decisions like sheep, are the primary reason why pathetic excuses of politicians get elected into office....this leads me to

2) politics are as far from simple as can be empathetically possible. when you are discussing politics, you are discussing decisions, that are made by a very small few, that affect hundreds of millions of people. this is far from being simple. every decision that they make has some consequence in their constituents lives, whether or not those people realize it or not...this leads me to

3) you say to do the right thing...the right thing, when dealing witt millions of people, all who see taht thing through their own eyes, in millions of different ways, the right thing becomes an extremely, and i mean extremely, blurred, confused, and squiggly line.

who is to say that one decision is right, more than the next. who is to say that raising taxes ,5,10,15% to help pay for non working peoples entitlements is the right idea. i do not believe in that, i know there are millions of people who feel the same. there are also millions of people that feel exactly opposite of how i feel...there are millions of people who dont care, adn there are millions of people who are unsure of this decision....this is why thinking between right in wrong is not always right when dealing with such large decisions..

what if president roosevelt had decided to not enter WWII after the attack on pearl harbor, simply because he thought it was wrong and not right to go after the japanese, regardless of what they did.....you know what, if we had gone by that logic, we'd all probably either be speaking german or japanese at this point..

4) not everyone is out there living trying to screw over the next guy. that is simply not how it is. this is the mentality of those who believe they are owed something. the government doesnt owe you anything.. i dont owe you, your mom, grandma, aunts, uncles, or john and jane doe anything. neither do my neighbors or anyone around me..

what i call being a good person, is if you have the extra money, and dont need it, DONATE THAT TO CHARITY...the federal government should have no right to take my money that i worked for. this is why i disagree with the federal income tax. the states are the ones who should have the right to tax citizens. i feel the government already takes to much from a vast some, and gives it to a very little.

and yes...standing inline, to collect handouts, when you could go out and get it yourself, is communism, it is socialism...it is worthlessism....

i have no problem having some of my earnings goign to handicapped people, or children...but not to 40 year old porch rats that never worked a day in their life and are sitting, living fatter than i am.

5) by your logic, if hte only things that should be voted on are things like the price of a can of tunna, how many times they play miley cyrus songs on the radio, and what color should school buses be. these are all thigns that really dont matter.


this and a million and a half other reasons are why i would not vote for you, or anyone who thought like you..

go ahead..put your savings and your house and car on the table..ill take the bet.....i wont vote for ya

Amen to that.

[slightlybent47]

Originally posted by rbgnwa45
I still proved my point. I wouldn't care if I couldn't vote if I knew the more educated people could. I'd be fine with that. Don't try to tell me you know everything about politics because as you said "it would take a huge post" to explain all of it, but then I could just pick something you missed and pick you apart. So it really doesn't matter if I say I'm not educated in politics - they ought to be simple. When something comes up you do the right thing, and you don't have to go to a prestigious school to do that. I wouldn't have to understand economics because if everyone lived as if they weren't screwing over the next guy then everyone is financially covered. Principality & morals would solve that. Money isn't just going to sit there and fix itself, therefore people are the only way to solve things! DUH!

I'd gladly let the government take the same percentage off everyones salary for health care. What I call being a good person you call standing in line to collect hand outs? :o Do you consider that communism?!

You're making it sound like politics is supposed to be confusing enough so that nobody understands it so that you can get away with things :huh. Governing shouldn't be left to matters of vastly differing opinions - isn't there a right & wrong way to do something? There shouldn't be any gray areas, and that's a no-BS mind state for you. It's a bunch of idiots and smart people trying to get their way.

I know what you guys vote on :ermm:. Like I said, the only things that should be voted on are things that really don't matter because everything else should be a done deal, the answers should be clear.

If I campaigned to be your president, I'd put money on you voting for me.

Who'd you vote for? :confused:


There comes a point where there are not enough people working to support those who are not. Please stay up there in Canada where socialism is the norm, we need a place for people like you who think you are so dumb that you can’t even make a decision for yourself. That’s part of our problem with our politicians these days is they think we are so dumb we can’t see the truth. Our system may not be perfect and we are still fighting to this day to keep socialist like you out and keep our government form takeing over and running everything for us.

[Quad18star]

Originally posted by slightlybent47
There comes a point where there are not enough people working to support those who are not. Please stay up there in Canada where socialism is the norm, we need a place for people like you who think you are so dumb that you can’t even make a decision for yourself. That’s part of our problem with our politicians these days is they think we are so dumb we can’t see the truth. Our system may not be perfect and we are still fighting to this day to keep socialist like you out and keep our government form takeing over and running everything for us.

A health care system that helps the sick is a bad thing? I don't mind paying a little extra to ensure that if I get sick or if a friend or family member gets sick , they won't go so far into debt that they'll lose everything they own. Why kick someone when they're already down? There's a lot more to life than Me, Myself and I.

That's where the differences exist !!!

[slightlybent47]

My question was did it work. And here you go off on health care and accuse me of having no compassion for my fellow man. Like I said before I ask one question and I get all kinds of reactions that have nothing to do with the question at hand. It’s a simple yes or no question and a brief description of why you think that way. You guy’s crack me up.lol

[ben300]

Originally posted by Quad18star
A health care system that helps the sick is a bad thing? I don't mind paying a little extra to ensure that if I get sick or if a friend or family member gets sick , they won't go so far into debt that they'll lose everything they own. Why kick someone when they're already down? There's a lot more to life than Me, Myself and I.

That's where the differences exist !!!

theres a difference between helping the sick, providing for "your" families well being, and then providing for everyone..regardless of what their condition is...

...that is what i do not agree with...i personally am currently living in an area where over 65% of the surround people receive more than two types of government entitlements...sure some of these people are elderly and cannot provide for themselves anymore. sure some of these people are physically disabled like my next door neighbor, and cannot work..

..yet a mass majority of these people do not work, will not work, sit around all day, give nothing back to this country, our community, to their families, or man kind in general, and yet...my, and everyone else, who pays state and federal income taxes, and medicare and medicade taxes, provide for these people...

for what, so they can go adn buy dvds and make up, and little debi snacks at walmart? for what, so every tiem they think they have a dcold, they rush to the emergency room?....it stuff like this that bothers me..

get a job, pay some taxes back..educate yourself. then, you wont have to rely so much on my money....

like i said...i have no problem providing for most of my family in times of need...****, i wouldnt even have a problem helping my next door neighbors out, any time they need it....but i dont see why i have to pay for people that give absolutely nothing back as an american...

...its preposterous to think that your idealistic entitlement system is the correct way to go about things...i for one do not believe this, and believe its ideas like this, which stray away from what this country was founded on..."hard work and freedom"...what are bringing this country down as a whole...

[BenHonda400ex]

Originally posted by Ruby Soho
We'd be in the same position if McCain was in office. The president doesn't decide ****, its all the other greedy *******s in the government that decide for what benefits them best and could give two ****s about us working class people.

I'm not huge on Obama, but there's nothing you can tell me that will convince me that McCain would have done that's so much better, and actually happened. Or anyone else.

Every candidate says all this great ****, and none of it will happen. Plus Bush put us so far down the ****ter its going to take years to climb back out of.

Get real. That's a great answer. That's all I have to say Haha

[ben300]

Originally posted by BenHonda400ex
That's a great answer. That's all I have to say Haha

bush wasnt all this countries problem during his presidency. sure, he spent way to much money, and let two wars get completely out of hand, for what ever reason that may be......


but you have to remember, a couple of things..

1) the housing and credit bubble is what started this financial crisis in the US. this began clear back during the carter administration and was escalated during the clinton administration. during that time, clinton who opointed federal reserve members, who kept lower, and lowering and lowering the federal interest rate, which was to make it easier for americans to get big loans, for houses and businesses and such, with low interest rates....

it was later found out, that these loans were given to just about anyone who wanted one..most of which could not pay them back...i have a aunt and uncle who are a prime example of this...

clinton also had the community reinvestment act..this was a law that is enacted during the clinton administration, which basically made it easier and forced banks to give loans to all people, specifically lower income families and persons. this is another reason there was such a huge housing and banking bust...since the 90's..the banks gave out millions of loans to people who could not afford the loans...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act

2) since 2006, up until recently, the democrats had taken mass control over congress, and saw fit to pass what ever laws they deemed necessary. and dont give me the "bush was a republican" because, in actually, during his second term...he voted very liberally and was extremely liberal in many of his decisions other than the war.

[Ichoptop]

The biggest issue that puts everyone at odds is public wealth vs. private wealth.

Public wealth is for social programs, military, national forests, grants, VA Hospitals, and public industry (roads, bridges, gov. employees)

We all know what private wealth is.

You can't have one without the other. If you had all the money in the country but there were no roads, no services, no public schools where would you be? You would be a rich man in a third or fourth world country.

So no one gets raises, unemployment is high. For the Gov to sink money trying to save the public wealth helps the country as a whole. I know its hard to see when your eating rice and beans every day. But the always follow each other. Build up one and the other follows. Let one blow in the wind (i.e. letting 2 of the 3 biggest industries in the country die) and the othe will follow shortly behind.

This isnt a new idea. It was done in 1918 during WW1, 1931 to ward off the great depression, 1943-1945 WW2 and in 1974 when the economy crumbled.

Bring industry back to our country, heavily tax anything imported, build up a descent public school system to teach our children something more then Jersey Shore and we should be ok in the greater future.

[CJM]

^ I can agree with some of that.

One form of wealth cant exist without the other-however when the govt pretty much stops using the taxes and monies for appropriate things is when it goes awry-and thats all they seem to be doing with it these days.

Wasteful is the word of the day here, so wasteful in fact that it would amaze some of you to find out exactly where your money goes. Sure it funds the proper things, but it also funds things like private vacations for your politicians (using public money), cars, buildings we dont need, entire divisions of govt that really dont even need to exist, etc. They dont spend the majority of money on the people-they spend it on themselves. Thus you wonder where your money really goes.

One of our major issues is we dont make anything here anymore! Gone are the factory jobs, gone are the items proudly made here and sold here. If it is made here you have a 50% chance its absolute garbage unless you pay for that quality. Reason you pay for the quality is in order to put out a better product and compete with imports-they gotta pay the people to make it-not some third world sweatshop where they pay you a penny an hour.

Also we regulated everything out of existence or closing in on doing so to the majority of things and ideals we have. We made it so that the govt controls everything (socialism) and it seems thats what the people wanted. Most people never wanted it, those that did however are the ones in power.

There is no fixing this melting ice cube at this point. No one person can simply step up to the plate and fix all the issues. We are to generationally, economically tied into this system of doing things.

Like i said before-only way you get change is collapse-one day it will occur and it will be like someone hit the reset switch and things may balance out or really go to hell. Either way, until that breaking point is reached we will continue on down this path.

It took a small faction of men who decided they didnt like what England was doing to us to start a revolution and create America. It only took them 2 wars (revolution and 1812), alot of sweat, blood and tears. These were very intelligent men, men who envisioned what was wrong with society under the King and wanted to fix it. They succeeded in fixing it, only for it to start all over again 100+ years later. There is a growing dissent in the public right now to do the very same thing they did in 1776.. a scary thought to a degree isnt it?

[sexysilverado45]

I agree with parts and pieces of everybody's post. I think america has left its roots and thus we are in the current position were in. Its not all obama,bush,clinton,ect it started way back. It seems to me that alot of people in this country are lazy. I'm a full time community college student, and work part time at ups,and farm. I don't like getting up at 530 to go to school but i do, i don't like going to work for a company that wants to work me like a mule, BUT I DO IT BECAUSE IT HAS TO BE DONE FOR ME TO DO THE THINGS I NEED TO DO AND WANT TO DO. There are people who are sellings drugs, or robbing people or things and making a good living off of it that are still on wellfare. There are people who spend every bit of there last money to buy drugs. These are the things that need to be cracked down on. Drug test should be given to anyone wanting to be on wellfare(not saying everybody on it shouldn't be.) I do agree that if you have extra money you should donate it to a worthy cause. I make 9.50 an hr and still find some money to donate. I also think that government decisions should be clear cut there should be no grey line it is either right or wrong. They should set there and try to please everyone because its not going to happen either way. I think there is a lot of deception in our government and the people who make the laws and decisions, but I as an individul can't do anything it will take multipule people to realize this.

I think our whole government should be relieved of their duties and blue collar workers should be their replacement. I believe that politicans these days are in it for the money way more than they are to be there and make the right decision.

Next thing THERE IS NO GLOBAL WARMING. hundreds of years ago there were glaicers over kansas, later they melted. Guess what? They weren't from suv's, trucks, fourwheelers, dirtbikes,semi's. the earth has a natural cycle of heating up and cooling down. Thus we don't need to be wasting our money on head up are arse agency's like the epa just to name one.


Iv never smoked pot in my life to let you know but i think pot should be legal and the government should collect taxes on that instead of income. Why? their are people in jail who are wasting my money because they smoked pot or were selling it. There is a way to save money. Also with the prisions system i think we should find an island that is remote put them on their air drop them food and let them be have a few people guard them to make sure somebody doesn't come get them and thats it if they wanna kill each other then let them be.

I don't know I think the government trys to fix things so much that they end up doing more damage then good. It should be simple

my .02

if you don't agree with my view thats fine I understand, because I might not agree with your's. So, we'll agree to do disagree in advance.

[Ruby Soho]

Originally posted by Ichoptop

Bring industry back to our country, heavily tax anything imported, build up a descent public school system to teach our children something more then Jersey Shore and we should be ok in the greater future.

100% correct.

[feuerstack411]

Originally posted by Ichoptop

Bring industry back to our country, heavily tax anything imported, build up a descent public school system to teach our children something more then Jersey Shore and we should be ok in the greater future. [/B]

Too bad this will never happen seeing as China owns us.

[trailrider894]

Originally posted by feuerstack411
Too bad this will never happen seeing as China owns us.

It will never happen as long as there are JACK @$$'s like you.

[feuerstack411]

Originally posted by trailrider894
It will never happen as long as there are JACK @$$'s like you.

lol, go do some research.
You are truly blind if you don't understand what I'm talking about.


And no, I'm not a liberal. I never even posted my political views in this thread. So you guys assuming that I'm a liberal is just pure ignorance. Nor do I like Obama. I'm just pointing out the fact that its absurd that some of you think its' only Obama who has the power. Go back to 3rd grade.

And no, I don't live in Italy.


If you guys really feel strongly about your opinions, how about getting off the internet and do something about it? Thats how **** got done in 1776.

[trailrider894]

Originally posted by feuerstack411
lol, go do some research.
You are truly blind if you don't understand what I'm talking about.


And no, I'm not a liberal. I never even posted my political views in this thread. So you guys assuming that I'm a liberal is just pure ignorance. Nor do I like Obama. I'm just pointing out the fact that its absurd that some of you think its' only Obama who has the power. Go back to 3rd grade.

And no, I don't live in Italy.


If you guys really feel strongly about your opinions, how about getting off the internet and do something about it? Thats how **** got done in 1776.

I'll tell you what... When i get off work, i'll dig up the paper i wrote last semester on this very subject.

[RATPACK Z400]

You see those whinny babys in Wisconsin ! here most of us dont get free health /pensions but they do ! all the state gov whats is the unions to pay 5.8 of there own retirement pension (Not asking to much) and 12% of there health plan (equels to $200 a month for entire family .why we if we want healthcare plan have to pay $900-1500 a month for same coverage! then these whinning piece,s of cr2p cant be fired from there jobs if there bad teachers ETC ! this country has a bunch of liberal/democrates that think tax payers should pay these insane entitlements to unions and screw the rest of us that arent in a union it BS !Then that moron ED from the ED SHOW was there suporting them he should be taken off tv ! he,s only trying to start fight between dem,s /rep,s that all he,s about !

[Ruby Soho]

Originally posted by feuerstack411
lol, go do some research.
You are truly blind if you don't understand what I'm talking about.


And no, I'm not a liberal. I never even posted my political views in this thread. So you guys assuming that I'm a liberal is just pure ignorance. Nor do I like Obama. I'm just pointing out the fact that its absurd that some of you think its' only Obama who has the power. Go back to 3rd grade.

And no, I don't live in Italy.


If you guys really feel strongly about your opinions, how about getting off the internet and do something about it? Thats how **** got done in 1776.

Thats pretty much what I was trying to get across in my first post

[honda250xrider]

I seen so many bumper stickers out there that say bring industry back to america. And quite frankly its almost annoying because its contradictory to what the public wants. The Consumer wants a product that doesn't cost much. This just isn't going to happen in america we have unions-big corporate taxes that put the price back on to the public. In turn China products will be cheaper for quite some time.

China can produce quality products far cheaper than america can. Many new plants are investing into the future of China along with big corporations and future technologies. The consumer can't afford and is simply unwilling to spend the money needed to purchase products that are american made.

The fact is China is advancing at an incredible rate right now and is predicted to surpass our gdp in 2050.

[feuerstack411]

Originally posted by honda250xrider
I seen so many bumper stickers out there that say bring industry back to america. And quite frankly its almost annoying because its contradictory to what the public wants. The Consumer wants a product that doesn't cost much. This just isn't going to happen in america we have unions-big corporate taxes that put the price back on to the public. In turn China products will be cheaper for quite some time.

China can produce quality products far cheaper than america can. Many new plants are investing into the future of China along with big corporations and future technologies. The consumer can't afford and is simply unwilling to spend the money needed to purchase products that are american made.

The fact is China is advancing at an incredible rate right now and is predicted to surpass our gdp in 2050.

This is what I'm getting at.

You cant simply just bring back all the industry to the U.S. Unless, we went to war with China, which would not end well...
Eitherway, even if we did start producing all of our own stuff again, the vast majority, and probably including members on this site would be *****ing and moaning that prices are to expensive blah blah blah

[ben300]

Originally posted by feuerstack411
Too bad this will never happen seeing as China owns us.

china does own us...but our manufacturing started dissapearing a couple of decades ago when the first bush admin and the clinton admin passed nafta....

couple that with with federal and state environmental regulations..

federal mfg regulations...

and the out of control demands that unions make, that basically put companies like gm and chrysler out of business...

(now dont get me wrong, unions do server their purpose and protect workers when need be. However, they make outragous demands of companies for their workers, and make extremely huge donations to democrat and liberal politicians, in the amounts of tens of millions of $. unions have essentially become a political tool that politicians use to corral the working man and force them to vote to the politicians they see fit.

this is precisely why the federal governemtn did not let GM collapse, or get bought out by a foreign automaker like chrysler did. that would mean voter lose, and union restructuring of teh largest auto maker in the world in terms of shear automobile sales.)

i agree, obama, jsut like bush, all they are, are jsut men. they are technically figure heads. the presidency is just a public figure for hwat goes on behind close, and those closed doors are the decisions made by the people in congress.

people jsut blame the president becuase they are like the ceo of a company, or the head coach of a pro football team...they are the scape goat for the blame...

do i honestly think that obama is qualified for his position and is doing a good job..absolutely not..their is no way a jr senator should have been elected as president...he's never held an executive position for anything in his entire life...his clame to fame was a community organizer..

do i think bush did a good job...yes and no...there were things that he did that were good, and there were things that he did during hsi presidency that were really bad...

wher the problem lies in our national government system is wiht the congressmen and women themselves. we have to many lifers in congress...examples, mccain, pelosi, reed, boxer, and past lifers like strom thurman, and arlen specter....

these are the people that cause teh problems in our government and with our country....these people hold office for so long, trying to push their political agendas, ideas, and ways for decades...regardless of the outcomes of their decisions.

also, the problem arrises with checks adn balances...our federal government was designed with three separate branches that were originally intended to not let the power of the others get out of hand....and our congress was divided into two branches to check the power fo the two houses or chambers...however, when you get like waht has been goign on for the past four years since 2006 up untill november of te past year, you have one political party, basically controlling all three branches of the government..

this causes problems because that party is then enabled to do what they please when making laws and decisions for this country...tahts why you see things like huge bailouts or massive entitlement programs being passed. there is no check on the power that one party has over teh government....sure you can do things like veto a bill or fillibuster adn what not, but those process sometimes do not work, can be overrulled, and are often not done because back door deals are made and things are added to bills so that vetoing senators/represenatives will now become happy because some money is being thrown to their constiuents.

its things like this, like the lifers, and the total control by one party, that cause problems in our federal government and opress teh people of the country...

im not saying all members of congress are bad, however, some just do not have the best intentions when it comes to the overal well being of the people of this country.



also, the fed gov't has become to large in itself..each satate and commonwelth in this country has more than enough ability to govern their own people...thats hwo the governemtn was originally intended, but has slowly morphed over the centuries with things like the interstate commerce act...

if we did not have things liek the interstate commerce act...we would be able to buy things liek 2012 ltr's, because each state's environmental agency and gov't would make the decision on whether or not to allow the sale of the quads..

also, we talk about educating our children, so that they can make better choices in the future....well this will never happen as long as the federal gov't has their hadn in public schooling..

the public school system in our country is a mess...teachers dont teach, schools dont care...adn its just a cyclic system

this can stem from a couple of problems..1)teachers unions 2) standardized tests 3) tenure 4)taxes...

currently, most states, like pennsylvania, teach students, mainly based off of information in order to make them do better on standardized test....if the students do well on tests like the "iowa" tests, the school will get a larger portion of federal money, fi they do good on tests like the "pssa" test, they get a larger portion of tax payer dollars from teh state....this causes problems beause teachers then teach in subjects liek math, reading, and english, in order to have students do better on tests...they do not teach students for teh betterment of education...they jsut do it for money...this is not how it should be...students should be tought, waht they need to learn, to make them more educated, so they can have a brighter future...

also, unions and tenure have caused problems in the public school system...currently, their are thousands of horrible teachers out there, and im sure any of us can name several in our own home school district...and we wouuld always wonder why these teachers were never fired or replaced....well its because of things like tenure...if a teacher teachs so long..they can be jsut replaced...and because of unions...basically protect teachers from the get go...both of these things protect teachers that are horrible, and do not provide the education our children need...

schools should not be liek this...schools should compete for the best teachers...if they hire a teacher that is bad at their job, they should be fired or replaced....schools should try and provide the best teachers for every position...and pay for these teachers accordingly with tax payers dollars...

paretns also should have the right to take their children, and tax dollars, and shoudl be able to enrolll their students in what ever school or school district they see fit...if a parent truly believes that a school district is not properly providing for their child...they should hten have the right to enroll their child in another school as they see fit..

..if a school starts loosing students and money...they'll then decided to change their ways, hire better teachers, improve the education they provide, and compete with other schools...otherwise they fail...plain and simple....should be run like a free market system..

i may seem radical..but this is how i feel..i could go on for days

[ben300]

Originally posted by honda250xrider
The fact is China is advancing at an incredible rate right now and is predicted to surpass our gdp in 2050.

look at every other international super power throughout the ages...egyp, rome, england, us, and now china...every great power reaches a peak in terms of society, economy, etc..and declines...some last longer than others...

[feuerstack411]

I agree 100% with ben300

[rbgnwa45]

Originally posted by ben300
first of all, i wouldnt vote for you...

one the basis of several different reasons.
1) i do not trust any man who would give away his right to vote, just because he thinks there is someone else out there that is smartter than him, or more educated. I firmly believe that there are millions of americans who may be more intelligent than i am, but i also do not believe that jsut because all of these americans are educated more than myself, that they would vote with my best interests at heart..if i didnt know or understand what was going on wiht my nations politics, simply because i did not understand, then it is my god given obligation and duty to go out, research, understand, and develop my own opinion and idea on the issue at hand. its people like you, who blindly follow others's decisions like sheep, are the primary reason why pathetic excuses of politicians get elected into office....this leads me to

2) politics are as far from simple as can be empathetically possible. when you are discussing politics, you are discussing decisions, that are made by a very small few, that affect hundreds of millions of people. this is far from being simple. every decision that they make has some consequence in their constituents lives, whether or not those people realize it or not...this leads me to

3) you say to do the right thing...the right thing, when dealing witt millions of people, all who see taht thing through their own eyes, in millions of different ways, the right thing becomes an extremely, and i mean extremely, blurred, confused, and squiggly line.

who is to say that one decision is right, more than the next. who is to say that raising taxes ,5,10,15% to help pay for non working peoples entitlements is the right idea. i do not believe in that, i know there are millions of people who feel the same. there are also millions of people that feel exactly opposite of how i feel...there are millions of people who dont care, adn there are millions of people who are unsure of this decision....this is why thinking between right in wrong is not always right when dealing with such large decisions..

what if president roosevelt had decided to not enter WWII after the attack on pearl harbor, simply because he thought it was wrong and not right to go after the japanese, regardless of what they did.....you know what, if we had gone by that logic, we'd all probably either be speaking german or japanese at this point..

4) not everyone is out there living trying to screw over the next guy. that is simply not how it is. this is the mentality of those who believe they are owed something. the government doesnt owe you anything.. i dont owe you, your mom, grandma, aunts, uncles, or john and jane doe anything. neither do my neighbors or anyone around me..

what i call being a good person, is if you have the extra money, and dont need it, DONATE THAT TO CHARITY...the federal government should have no right to take my money that i worked for. this is why i disagree with the federal income tax. the states are the ones who should have the right to tax citizens. i feel the government already takes to much from a vast some, and gives it to a very little.

and yes...standing inline, to collect handouts, when you could go out and get it yourself, is communism, it is socialism...it is worthlessism....

i have no problem having some of my earnings goign to handicapped people, or children...but not to 40 year old porch rats that never worked a day in their life and are sitting, living fatter than i am.

5) by your logic, if hte only things that should be voted on are things like the price of a can of tunna, how many times they play miley cyrus songs on the radio, and what color should school buses be. these are all thigns that really dont matter.


this and a million and a half other reasons are why i would not vote for you, or anyone who thought like you..

go ahead..put your savings and your house and car on the table..ill take the bet.....i wont vote for ya

Great points. I'm not an idiot, and just because I try to make intelligent arguments without knowing *everything* about politics doesn't mean I wouldn't have the intention to treat a mass population equally & ideally. I didn't attack your comments, I only stated my own. Politics obviously requires diplomacy, and I have a ****load of it. Sometimes you just have to put your foot down. I didn't cause your countries mess, nor did my perspectives so don't complain to me if I'm seemingly unknowledgable. Don't respond to my posts.

I told my mom everything said here, and she really schooled me on everything. Even she told me that I shouldn't be talking about politics without knowing everything. Is that to say that I shouldn't vote either? I was more or less trying out my nice-guy approach because I see everything as being unfair (otherwise you wouldn't be having a problem!), and I am that naive, but oh how good would it be if we all were (without expecting hand outs - I certainly don't). I don't see why everyone differs in opinion when we all generally want the same things - health care, education, and we don't ever want to wake up one day and say we're bankrupt even with a descent salary. We don't want to be f'd. I see it as two paths: everyone either gives their money to the gov't and they spend it on needed things or nobody gives the gov't money and they end up spending on things that the gov't would spend on anyways. Someone tell me how that economy works because I see the simple version.

I'd want people to give up their rights to vote if they were really stupid, otherwise they'd just getting in the way of doing things right. Don't say "yeah but the right thing is opinionated" - no. I'm talking about the most intelligent conclusions, such as health care should be paid for equally by all. You have no grounds to dispute it when so many in the states can't even afford health care. If one person can't afford health care than you don't really have a true "health care", do you? It's more like "health don't care". That's my "no gray areas" Canadian thinking for you. Just because can learn about politics enough to make an informed vote doesn't mean they'll vote in a way that's best for all involved, just themself, and that's damn selfish.

I don't believe there should be insanely rich people when there are people who can't afford to eat, that's not jusifiable by humane standards. I don't care if a person went through 7 years of education because it shouldn't matter. Time off your life shouldn't matter because you ought to be doing that education because you like what you'd be doing for a living, not because you want to make a hundred million dollars a year. Principality over unrealistic goals is what I want.

When I said "the right thing to do", I was talking about putting health care, education, and insurances up front, just really obvious things. If a right course of action is incredibly confusing because of a massive population than why aren't the states broken up into smaller sects like how it was way back? It would atleast group the like-minded people, and you'd see less complaints. Is that wrong? What are the benefits of sending laws down from the top to control everyone the same?

Welfare... I say make the bas***** work, it's so unfair for one to sit around and collect the money that you've worked for. Illegal immigrants - throw them out!

Ben300 is telling me that he understands that everyone is going to have a different opinion, yet he votes the way he wants things to go. How nice of you to think about yourself and not the rest of your fellow citizens. The economy is the LEAST of the states problems.

I guess I'm Robin Hood :scary:. Nobody liked that guy... just the other good guys.

Land of the free & home of the slaves.

[feuerstack411]

Originally posted by rbgnwa45
Great points. I'm not an idiot, and just because I try to make intelligent arguments without knowing *everything* about politics doesn't mean I wouldn't have the intention to treat a mass population equally & ideally. I didn't attack your comments, I only stated my own. Politics obviously requires diplomacy, and I have a ****load of it. Sometimes you just have to put your foot down. I didn't cause your countries mess, nor did my perspectives so don't complain to me if I'm seemingly unknowledgable. Don't respond to my posts.

I told my mom everything said here, and she really schooled me on everything. Even she told me that I shouldn't be talking about politics without knowing everything. Is that to say that I shouldn't vote either? I was more or less trying out my nice-guy approach because I see everything as being unfair (otherwise you wouldn't be having a problem!), and I am that naive, but oh how good would it be if we all were (without expecting hand outs - I certainly don't). I don't see why everyone differs in opinion when we all generally want the same things - health care, education, and we don't ever want to wake up one day and say we're bankrupt even with a descent salary. We don't want to be f'd. I see it as two paths: everyone either gives their money to the gov't and they spend it on needed things or nobody gives the gov't money and they end up spending on things that the gov't would spend on anyways. Someone tell me how that economy works because I see the simple version.

I'd want people to give up their rights to vote if they were really stupid, otherwise they'd just getting in the way of doing things right. Don't say "yeah but the right thing is opinionated" - no. I'm talking about the most intelligent conclusions, such as health care should be paid for equally by all. You have no grounds to dispute it when so many in the states can't even afford health care. If one person can't afford health care than you don't really have a true "health care", do you? It's more like "health don't care". That's my "no gray areas" Canadian thinking for you. Just because can learn about politics enough to make an informed vote doesn't mean they'll vote in a way that's best for all involved, just themself, and that's damn selfish.

I don't believe there should be insanely rich people when there are people who can't afford to eat, that's not jusifiable by humane standards. I don't care if a person went through 7 years of education because it shouldn't matter. Time off your life shouldn't matter because you ought to be doing that education because you like what you'd be doing for a living, not because you want to make a hundred million dollars a year. Principality over unrealistic goals is what I want.

When I said "the right thing to do", I was talking about putting health care, education, and insurances up front, just really obvious things. If a right course of action is incredibly confusing because of a massive population than why aren't the states broken up into smaller sects like how it was way back? It would atleast group the like-minded people, and you'd see less complaints. Is that wrong? What are the benefits of sending laws down from the top to control everyone the same?

Welfare... I say make the bas***** work, it's so unfair for one to sit around and collect the money that you've worked for. Illegal immigrants - throw them out!

Ben300 is telling me that he understands that everyone is going to have a different opinion, yet he votes the way he wants things to go. How nice of you to think about yourself and not the rest of your fellow citizens. The economy is the LEAST of the states problems.

I guess I'm Robin Hood :scary:. Nobody liked that guy... just the other good guys.

Land of the free & home of the slaves.


Some very socialist views in there. Can't say I'm surprised coming from a Canadian.

[01 250exman]

blah blah blah...why fight about it useless rich Ivy league people rule the us always have always will, the average Joe can't do anything but pretend to have a say the government is not ran by the people. I am done playing there game! ;)

[CJM]

Originally posted by 01 250exman
blah blah blah...why fight about it useless rich Ivy league people rule the us always have always will, the average Joe can't do anything but pretend to have a say the government is not ran by the people. I am done playing there game! ;)

They didnt rule in 1776 thats for sure. The avg joes rose up and made sure of it.

Dont worry, one day it will topple.

[Quad18star]

Originally posted by feuerstack411
Some very socialist views in there. Can't say I'm surprised coming from a Canadian.
Haha... not surprised comming from a ..... ah nevermind !!!

[SRH]

why does every american, rich, poor, dirt poor beleive they are the hard working wealthy americans getting screwed by bottom feeders who dont want to work ...its funny to me, then everyone is so smart they know more about obama than the cia or his wife himself

another thing is how many ppl complain about some bum getting pocket money each month..if you didnt give them money they still wouldnt work, they would rob you or engage in some criminal activity so you can spend double or triple in lawn enforcement and prison or give the bums there check let them spend it how they want at least some american businessman is profiting

another thing is the ones who ***** are the ones who wont get there fat *** out of a bar or off the couch all weekend they feel there entitled to 40 hrs and every luxury they desire from that

increasing our debt is a bad idea but were on a sinking ship obama ...some white dude... whats it matter

if obama and mccain were car salesmen i feel mccain would leave you walking funny, not to mention his personality urks me

we all know the pres has little power obama has better intentions for the everyday guy, mccain would use the position like big auto or bank exec... milking out the sinking ship for him and his pals at least obamas spending is aimed at helping the clock punchers


the economy is def better in my area, hasnt been a better year in almost the last 10 id say, 08 -09 was more out of fear than income, thank the media

big money has a way of herding all the sheep around and manipulating the sheep to protect there intrests when there not even about it themselves , thats the reason your all on here *****ing ohhh hes a liberal ohh hes this...what a joke

[SRH]

Originally posted by trailrider894
Can i get a BIG i told you so??!?!?!? Looks like the conservative right wingers were correct.... AGAIN!!!!!

http://johngaltfla.com/blog3/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/i-told-you-so1.jpg

bahhhh bahhhh :chinese:

[derekhonda]

Originally posted by SRH
why does every american, rich, poor, dirt poor beleive they are the hard working wealthy americans getting screwed by bottom feeders who dont want to work ...its funny to me, then everyone is so smart they know more about obama than the cia or his wife himself

I run the books at work. I see each week what gets paid into what and Ill just pick out unemployment since you talked about it. I see how it has DRASTICALLY went up (from about 40$ a week to $300) Oh yeah, we've never lost an unemployment claim either, we have the lowest "rating" possible. It does effect us, and that is almost half an employee we could hire, or buy some new equipment, or maybe give me a raise! but I guess we wont, govmt needs it to fund 99 weeks unemployment.


Originally posted by SRH

another thing is how many ppl complain about some bum getting pocket money each month..if you didnt give them money they still wouldnt work, they would rob you or engage in some criminal activity so you can spend double or triple in lawn enforcement and prison or give the bums there check let them spend it how they want at least some american businessman is profiting[/B]
You are right, we should shoot em. Not good for a thing, 100% drain on the economy.


Originally posted by SRH

another thing is the ones who ***** are the ones who wont get there fat *** out of a bar or off the couch all weekend they feel there entitled to 40 hrs and every luxury they desire from that
[/B]
Yeah, ok so how does that differ from your post above? You state that you might as well give a bum a dollar so he doesnt break into your car, but yet you yell at the people that do work and don't have a social life that you agree with? Ok.....

For the record, I agree with most of what you said at the bottom. We were in a hole, and there is plenty of blame to go around. My top 3 blames the massive debt weakening the dollar, the huge and unexplainable run-up in the price of oil, and the horrible mortgages banks were "encouraged" to make.

Obama didn't help the first one. And yet his spend spend spend mentality is still going strong. Have they raised the debt ceiling yet? Heard that was next on the agenda cause the way he is spending we will have maxed out our credit card by mid year. Oil, who know, seems like anytime someone in the oil fields farts gas prices shoot up. Housing, well, just a ****ty situation...and that is what happens when the government sticks their ****ing hands into a free market. Housing operated just fine for the last 200 years, government decides to force banks to make loans to people who wouldnt conventionally qualify, and 5-10-15 years later this is the result.

[Pappy]

I won't get into a pissing match, not worth it

I will say that the VAT (Value Added Tax) is what is coming. Niether the Rebubs or Dems want to give, and they wont. They will butt heads and we will see another tax (VAT) that will affect every single person no matter what you buy.

I don't like Obama's policies, nor that of the majority of the Democratic party. I am not onboard with the Rebulicans either.....they are holding out so they make sure Obama is out in 2012. In the meantime, we all suffer.

I could careless if the president was orange with pink polka dots, do the right thing for the country period. This is really what this country needs, it will awaken the spirit that made us great. Lets just hope idocy doesn't stomp out liberty and freedom for too much longer.

[Quad18star]

Originally posted by Pappy
I won't get into a pissing match, not worth it

I will say that the VAT (Value Added Tax) is what is coming. Niether the Rebubs or Dems want to give, and they wont. They will butt heads and we will see another tax (VAT) that will affect every single person no matter what you buy.

I don't like Obama's policies, nor that of the majority of the Democratic party. I am not onboard with the Rebulicans either.....they are holding out so they make sure Obama is out in 2012. In the meantime, we all suffer.

I could careless if the president was orange with pink polka dots, do the right thing for the country period. This is really what this country needs, it will awaken the spirit that made us great. Lets just hope idocy doesn't stomp out liberty and freedom for too much longer.

What's your thought on protectionism?? That seems to be the way things are going right now.

Also the recent talk of adding new fees to people entering the USA from Mexico and Canada .. currently visitors from other countries are being charged $5.xx to enter the USA. But with Canada and Mexico being the USA largest trade partners with visitors cross the border for shopping, travelling and industry ... this is generating quite a bit of business and revenue plus employment. What's your thoughts on this? Should this be implemented?

[Pappy]

1st time i've heard the term used Greg

[SRH]

Originally posted by derekhonda
I run the books at work. I see each week what gets paid into what and Ill just pick out unemployment since you talked about it. I see how it has DRASTICALLY went up (from about 40$ a week to $300) Oh yeah, we've never lost an unemployment claim either, we have the lowest "rating" possible. It does effect us, and that is almost half an employee we could hire, or buy some new equipment, or maybe give me a raise! but I guess we wont, govmt needs it to fund 99 weeks unemployment.


You are right, we should shoot em. Not good for a thing, 100% drain on the economy.


Yeah, ok so how does that differ from your post above? You state that you might as well give a bum a dollar so he doesnt break into your car, but yet you yell at the people that do work and don't have a social life that you agree with? Ok.....

For the record, I agree with most of what you said at the bottom. We were in a hole, and there is plenty of blame to go around. My top 3 blames the massive debt weakening the dollar, the huge and unexplainable run-up in the price of oil, and the horrible mortgages banks were "encouraged" to make.

Obama didn't help the first one. And yet his spend spend spend mentality is still going strong. Have they raised the debt ceiling yet? Heard that was next on the agenda cause the way he is spending we will have maxed out our credit card by mid year. Oil, who know, seems like anytime someone in the oil fields farts gas prices shoot up. Housing, well, just a ****ty situation...and that is what happens when the government sticks their ****ing hands into a free market. Housing operated just fine for the last 200 years, government decides to force banks to make loans to people who wouldnt conventionally qualify, and 5-10-15 years later this is the result.

i can see your side too, but the ppl on the system isnt the problem its the govt, what im saying is and everyone is riding obama's *** for the increase in spending thats helping the middle to poor class etc , but i bet you could wrap that up in some nice packaging with a fancy name and spend the same money to fund some nonsense that ends up in a rich guys pockets and theyd say it didnt work and everyone would be cool with it, as soon as they hear to help out the poor anyone with a job gets pissed and complains

i can agree with the fact that obama could possibly be heading in the wrong direction but i can appreciate the fact hes making the effort to help the ones on the hardest time not the guys who gotta sell there sportscars, i dont know if you can honestly say you wouldnt be seeing a increase in taxes regardless of who was president or where the money was going

basically i feel obama is has more of the robin hood , republicans ...there like vikings who rape and pillage... and honestly i think either way we were screwed

[Pappy]

Billy, Obama hasnt helped anyone, and even the poor are seeing it. The only thing his policies have done thus far is further divide the country and get us all into more debt then we can manage.

[Quad18star]

Originally posted by Pappy
1st time i've heard the term used Greg

The term protectionism? Or about the tax for visitors entering ?


Protectionism is the economic policy of restraining trade between states through methods such as tariffs on imported goods, restrictive quotas, and a variety of other government regulations designed to discourage imports and prevent foreign take-over of domestic markets and companies.

This policy contrasts with free trade, where government barriers to trade and movement of capital are kept to a minimum. In recent years, it has become closely aligned with anti-globalization. The term is mostly used in the context of economics, where protectionism refers to policies or doctrines which protect businesses and workers within a country by restricting or regulating trade with foreign nations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectionism

This is what is being suggested by your government offcicials.

[Pappy]

My opinion is that traded goods should be equally taxed between two countries. Tariffs should be applied when the trade gap is out of balance (china and mexico).

I blame greed on things being so out of balance, with a great portion of blame sitting squarely on our elected officials for allowing such trade agreements to be allowed. Companies are in business to make money, get out of their way and let them do what they do inside the legal guidlines set forth by the law that governs businesses or trade. You would be surprised what would happen if the feds and epa would chill out, and our governemnet wouldnt tax US businesses so heavily.

Thats it for me, you have used up the few minutes I will waste on this issue. I will be awaiting my turn to vote in 2012

[derekhonda]

Originally posted by SRH
i can see your side too, but the ppl on the system isnt the problem its the govt, what im saying is and everyone is riding obama's *** for the increase in spending thats helping the middle to poor class etc , but i bet you could wrap that up in some nice packaging with a fancy name and spend the same money to fund some nonsense that ends up in a rich guys pockets and theyd say it didnt work and everyone would be cool with it, as soon as they hear to help out the poor anyone with a job gets pissed and complains

i can agree with the fact that obama could possibly be heading in the wrong direction but i can appreciate the fact hes making the effort to help the ones on the hardest time not the guys who gotta sell there sportscars, i dont know if you can honestly say you wouldnt be seeing a increase in taxes regardless of who was president or where the money was going

basically i feel obama is has more of the robin hood , republicans ...there like vikings who rape and pillage... and honestly i think either way we were screwed

I hear your general message. Yes, he is trying to help people out. The problem is, he is just giving them too much aid. You know the old saying give a man a fish he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish he will eat for his lifetime? Obama is handing out fish not just to feed them for a day, he's given them a all you can eat pass.

I understand or atleast try to understand peoples frustrations. Look, I know you had a dream job where you made 60 grand and didn't have to do a whole lot before. It's gone now. Find another job, even if you have to take a pay cut and blah blah blah, we hit the reset button about 2 years ago and EVERYONE had to adapt

What I strongly hate, is I still don't think Obama GETS IT! He is proving it time and time again, lately with the fiasco in Wisconsin. I don't live in wisconsin, I'm not gonna try to pretend I know everything about the situation, But I do watch the news and read the paper, THEY ARE BROKE!
They atleast have one thing going for them, their governor apparently has atleast a little bit of common sense and a business background, he knows its either raise taxes or cut spending. He chose to cut spending, smart move! All the state workers now are crying boo hoo because they aren't getting their standard wage increase and are going to actually have to pay a portion of their health care and pension!

"Oh my god! You mean this ******* governor actually wants me to pay money out of MY pocket for MY healthcare and MY retirement! Rediculous!" - Wisconson state workers.

Yeah Boo hoo Wisconsin, welcome to the real world. I had been working for about a year at my job and had just signed papers to buy my first house. The ink wasnt even dry on me closing the house and the boss calls me in and says we are struggling, I knew it. He told me I got 2 options either a 20% pay cut or else they would have to let me go. Easy decision. Took a pay cut for about 14 months, it was a struggle, had to really watch my expenses, but then things started turning around for us, got back to full salary.

Obama is helping the state workers in winsconsin to boycott and do their sit outs, if you didnt know. Thats why I'm saying even after all this time he just still doesnt get it. Little ol' workers like me see it, if he truly GOT IT he would side with the governor and support him in his case to cut costs, but he doesn't. He stands next to teachers who call in sick in order to shut down the schools. Thats who he sides with, thats how much integrity he has.