How many of you would buy a new "hybrid" chassis if the rule was changed?

[protraxrptr17]

Just wondering how many would actually be interested in switching to a new "hybrid" if the rule was changed? I dont really know why the rule change would be necessary because most of us run classes that have no rules on that, but it seems like everybody is getting excited about the possibility of the change.

Would you buy a complete roller, just a chassis, chassis with arms? What would you be willing to pay for each?

Personally I have always thought it was a BS rule. It killed all the small guys.

I'm not talking about buying a used hybrid from the early 2000's. I mean a totally brand new bike from Walsh or somebody else with new ideas that have not been available before.

[RATPACK Z400]

nobody would be able to buy them but the rich! those quads would sell for 15-20 thousand . and your really not getting that much more than a gusseted frame would offer ! sure there would be a slight weight difference/handling but not enough too pay the money they want !

[blaster12s]

^your just flat out wrong, they will be expensive but far better then anything a production bike could ever be.

[trick450r]

I dont think anyone is going to want to go back to having to buy a $20,000 crf hybrid to be competitive, especially seeing as though nobody has any money!

I myself love hybrids and wish I could buy one, but i never even ride anymore honestly.

[Jackson723]

I would like to have a stronger frame for my LTR. If it breaks on me this year I will be calling Mike Walsh for a new one.

[protraxrptr17]

But what does it cost to rig out a production bike? To have a competitive production bike you will have at least 12k invested. Would you buy a turn key hybrid that out lasts and out performs any production bike for $12K? I should have added that option.

If you ride much, a production chassis will fall apart in two seasons. What if you could buy a 4130 chassis that would accept all your current parts? Would you do it?

Not trying to change minds. Give your honest opinion. We need to have this discussion.

[Jackson723]

I would much rather buy a Walsh frame than have this one that has been welded on over and over. I had a Laeger 250r chassis and it was rock solid. It would be cheaper to change a frame than buy a new bike every year. Plus the frame would last a long time.

[RATPACK Z400]

The thing is if you could afford 3-4000 dollar frame you would need to buy the rest (a-arm/shocks/swing arm,axle,nerfs,plastics,steering stem,etc would cost alot more than gusseting factory frame (LTR/YFZ/KTM) then just upgrading shocks/motor! Not saying if you had the money/rules changed wouldn,t be good ,But alot more expensive !The only thing you could use from factory quad would be motor /wiring but i could be wrong! And All frames break(aftermarket/factory) after a couple good crashs !

[blaster12s]

it would cost less for the first year, then once frames start to break, like the 3 i have broken on my production bike in the past 3 years it would of been cheaper to buy a hybrid.

[Ellingsoc26]

They always cost sooooo much. I will stick with my trx!

[quad2xtreme]

I already bought a Lonestar frame but I don't race at Nationals or in production classes. Best move I've made. May not be for everyone but it was right for me.

[outacontrol]

Originally posted by protraxrptr17
But what does it cost to rig out a production bike? To have a competitive production bike you will have at least 12k invested. Would you buy a turn key hybrid that out lasts and out performs any production bike for $12K? I should have added that option.

If you ride much, a production chassis will fall apart in two seasons. What if you could buy a 4130 chassis that would accept all your current parts? Would you do it?

Not trying to change minds. Give your honest opinion. We need to have this discussion.

I dont think you will be finding a turn key walsh 2010 crf hybrid for $12k. Just guessing.
I had a 03 full crf laeger hybrid. (former QOTM) with protrax front and cr 500 rear. Had $23k in reciepts in 03. So i doubt in 2011, you will build that same bike for half price, and be as good/better.

[RATPACK Z400]

would cost more if you broke aftermarket frame ! If you crash something gonna break ,yes the after market frame will hold up better but not by much in a big crash. Ive heard yamaha,s sub-frame break alot on older models dont know about the new design .Haven,t heard the LTR/ktm,s breaking alot when gusseted. all in all a production quad would be cheaper IMO.If its one of the three=YFZ,KTM,LTR.I wouldn,t put Can-am in there cause I dont think there frames are as they say. and honda/Kawi dont make 50in width quads.

[protraxrptr17]

Originally posted by outacontrol
I dont think you will be finding a turn key walsh 2010 crf hybrid for $12k. Just guessing.
I had a 03 full crf laeger hybrid. (former QOTM) with protrax front and cr 500 rear. Had $23k in reciepts in 03. So i doubt in 2011, you will build that same bike for half price, and be as good/better.


Good discussion. Seems like everyone is concerned about the cost most of all. What is the cutoff on what would be acceptable? I threw out the $12k figure. Is it lower? What if the price was 10K for a turn key bike with a stock used atv or dirtbike engine and everything else was new? Would that change minds? Not sure if it could be done that cheap, just asking if it could be done if that would be the magic number?

[hontrx265r]

The thing is a turn key hybrid is going to be in the 18-20k range if built new... Just like before... I think more people would be likely to buy a replacement frame though.

My game plan is to buy a hybrid frame from walsh. Buy a used honda motor and use all my ltr parts on it. Since there new walsh CRF chassis will use 80% of ltr components. Weather they change rule or not. Hybrids are the best. Nothings better then a honda motor. And nothing will handle better then a suz.

[K-Dub]

I race local, to big and to old to think about nationals. So I went and baught the best frame made: 2004 Roll Design Lobo. Oh another plus is it has that great 250R 2 stroke motor in it. Woohoo! My dream is to open the Pro class up to any frame and any engine 450cc or smaller 2 stroke or 4 stroke. Or just put the cc limit back 265cc and forget it.

[D-7#61-450r]

Kinda lost on all the hype over this. Walsh never stopped making frames and niether did lonestar. The only classes that you can't run a hybrid in are the production classes. Remeber why you would mainly want to run a production class is if you can become a pro the real money is with the manufactures. Yes you can be a pro and make cash without the factories ex. Joe Byrd. Hybrids do last longer and should out perform a production quad but you do pay the price. Ask anyone who built a hybrid for 20k or more and sold it to JRSPAWN (hybrid king) for 5k or less how much that hurt.
I never am going to be pro or want to be, and if I could afford a hybrid I would love to have one. That would be the last quad I would have. In reality I don't know if I would like it any better than a production quad. Which I enjoy riding.
Ride and race because you love it. If your any good at it the money will come. Don't race for the money. My $.02

[hontrx265r]

I do agree that yes people still make hybrid frames but they lost popularity because they are 250r based. Not that the R is bad but its old now thats fact. If they used trx450, ltr compents. etc..That class of atv would probably grow.

[Lasher]

Originally posted by hontrx265r
I do agree that yes people still make hybrid frames but they lost popularity because they are 250r based. Not that the R is bad but its old now thats fact. If they used trx450, ltr compents. etc..That class of atv would probably grow.

Walsh CRF hybrid (not the one he talks about in the vids) uses trx450r parts.

My son is building a hybrid to race and when we ordered the frame last year we had a choice. 250r parts or 450r parts. We picked the 450r parts model.

Two reasons we went with a hybrid...

1) Handle awesome. I upgraded from an 89 250r to a Walsh 250r last season and it is a night and day difference.

2) Reliability. The 250R Walsh chassis I brought was an 02 and when I sent it to Walsh for a "check up" he said the frame was in great shape for its age. While my 89 frame needed repairs after each season.

[quad2xtreme]

I just look at my Lonestar frame as an aftermarket replacement frame. Honestly don't know if it is based on 250r or 450r technology. I had to order it as a 2006+ 450r frame and everything bolted right up. I never noticed if the handling was improved or not. Not sure Lonestar changed anything up to improve handling. If so, I am not good enough rider to feel the difference.

To me the term hybrid makes me think of a frame designed to support some other engine than what would normally fit in a stock frame. For example, a frame designed to fit 400ex components but use a 650 engine.

To me, a quad should be based on the powerplant. Run a Yammy engine then you have a Yammy on the line...even if you've put it into a Honda450r frame and plastics.

[RATPACK Z400]

Why do people think the honda motors the best? and the suzuki has best handling? I havn,t heard anything bad about the suzuki motor and it seems to pull away from the rest in races on the straight so how is that bad compared to the honda? It would be cool to see after market frames in racing but i dont think it would be that big of improvement unless there some serious weight differences. does anybody know how much weight saved? cuase the design looks the same as factory frames just better metal,s ?

[quad2xtreme]

Originally posted by RATPACK Z400
Why do people think the honda motors the best? and the suzuki has best handling? I havn,t heard anything bad about the suzuki motor and it seems to pull away from the rest in races on the straight so how is that bad compared to the honda?

You haven't heard about tranny issues with the Suzuki...especially 3rd gear? I hear about it from friends quite often. Of course, they don't do rebuilds until required so they aren't constantly pulling the engine apart and seeing early signs of wear like pro rider's quads likely have done.

I don't think any engine is best for everyone...it is really what you are comfortable with, etc. Timing can be everything too. I bought my Honda before the LTR came out. So far, I haven't seen a substantial reason to throw away my investment for the latest and greatest. I hear people talking a lot about Honda being behind the times but I don't see anything that makes me want to start over.

[Lasher]

Going on what I know...

Usually...
There are two types of aftermarket frames:

Stock Replacement
These frames have the same geometry/bolt patterns/etc as a stock frame, just better materials/gussets. Sounds like quad2xtreme has a stock replacement.

Hybrid/Special
These frames either change the geometry or set up for a different motor. My Walsh 250R frame is made for the stock motor, but you need the whole chassis to see the huge improvement. My son's Walsh CRF may be based off the 250R geometry but uses a CRF motor and trx450R parts.

While I understand that people do not want the "CRF Type" hybrids back in the pro class, allowing stock replacement frames is a must for racing. Getting a season out of a stock production frame is a joke in my book. I went through this with my stock 89 250R frame, ever winter it needed to be welded up.

[RATPACK Z400]

Yeah i have but thats the trans not motor! and the honda has crank issues havn,t you heard that ? as with the YFZ having oil issues .both motors problems seem worse the trans or maybe not ?but to say honda,s motor is the best then why isn,t it dominating racing seems suzuki has dominated the MX/crosscountry/dirtbike/streetbike races more yrs than most other brands. But you wont hear too much on that, its all about honda and i dont understand it!what doe,s suzuki have to do to get some props. i think honda are good but i like Suzuki better! just look back since 2006 how many DNF,s the suzuki had compared to the rest I bet it has the least amount. but its still called junk compared to the honda! as far as after market frames does anybody know if there,s a weight difference? some one have a crf450 hybred they could weigh and compare to production quad,s weight !

[Lasher]

Hybrid frame weight...trying to remember from shipping...

Walsh CRF frame/sub-frame was a little over 50lbs I think.

I am pretty sure that my Walsh 250R frame/subframe/swingarm/lower a-arms was around 80lbs?

[RATPACK Z400]

what im trying to know is weight to weight on both fully built quad is one heavier than the other and by how much?

[john willhoite]

I think the main thing is to not even use an ATV engine.

the Dirtbike motors are way lighter and have all the new technology.

The new wlash frame using a Fuel injected honda motor that only weighs 50lbs. sounds very cool.

[SRH]

the walsh is going to be trick no doubt , but i think this is my fav ive seen so far has the new yz 450 engine alot nicer job than the big gun one


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Originally posted by RATPACK Z400
Why do people think the honda motors the best? and the suzuki has best handling? I havn,t heard anything bad about the suzuki motor and it seems to pull away from the rest in races on the straight so how is that bad compared to the honda? It would be cool to see after market frames in racing but i dont think it would be that big of improvement unless there some serious weight differences. does anybody know how much weight saved? cuase the design looks the same as factory frames just better metal,s ?

My suz motor hauls. Im not saying that. Honda motors are by far more reliable. Cheaper to rebuild and make power very easy. And are alot easier to work on.

[quad2xtreme]

Originally posted by RATPACK Z400
Yeah i have but thats the trans not motor! and the honda has crank issues havn,t you heard that ? as with the YFZ having oil issues .both motors problems seem worse the trans or maybe not ?but to say honda,s motor is the best then why isn,t it dominating racing seems suzuki has dominated the MX/crosscountry/dirtbike/streetbike races more yrs than most other brands. But you wont hear too much on that, its all about honda and i dont understand it!what doe,s suzuki have to do to get some props. i think honda are good but i like Suzuki better! just look back since 2006 how many DNF,s the suzuki had compared to the rest I bet it has the least amount. but its still called junk compared to the honda! as far as after market frames does anybody know if there,s a weight difference? some one have a crf450 hybred they could weigh and compare to production quad,s weight !

We've all read about every issue with every brand. Most consider the engine/tranny to be one unit so it is fair to say Suzuki has a generic "power delivery to the rear wheels issue".

I don't promote Honda as being the best. Specifically, I stated I don't think any engine is "best" for everyone. Personally, I am willing to give up easier cold starting and quicker throttle response to eliminate electronics and be able to jet my own carb. I am dreading when there isn't a factory option for a carbed engine. I definitely don't get into brand bashing. Everyone should buy what they think will work best for them and of course sponsorship and contingency $$$ play a part for many.

As a reference point to frame weights, my Lonestar frame was a few 1.5-2 lbs heavier than a stock Honda frame. Lonestar could have made it lighter by cutting down on the thickness of the tubes and some other reinforced points (glad they didn't). It is lighter than a gusseted Honda frame though.

[protraxrptr17]

Weight is one of the key selling points of using a dirtbike engine and a custom frame. I will use a KTM engine in my first new bike which will be my own. It is really light, simple wiring, has more power bone stock than my full ATP LTR motor, and will last longer.

[tayyo789]

I really only see weight being a concern in mx racing. And even then, a few pounds shouldn't deter you from an aftermarket frame. In my mind, the aftermarket frame was designed to be stronger than stock, and handle like a dream, plain and simple.
Talking motors, every single brand has its pro's and con's. Like it was said before, its basically whatever works for you. I prefer Honda, because they are easy to work on, and are very reliable. I have a friend who prefers Yamaha, because of all the "cutting edge technology". He also just had to get his tranny rebuilt, while I was out riding.
My point being, its all personal preference with motors, but when it comes down to frames, aftermarkets are simply better.