esr 250r ignition upgrade (is it worth it)

[250rice]

i am thinking of buying one of the cr250 ignition kits for my esr330pv does any on know any thing about it does it make more power and is the power worth the money and esr says it has a lighter flywheel will that take away from the bottm end

[Pumashine]

In my opinion the amount of pain I do not get anymore from the kickback of my 350 or 431 justifies spending the $500. Never have to worry about the stock system acting up or going bad.

You are probably talking about the power curve. Alot of people say it is better.

[rsss396]

Don't we answer this question every month?

I guess the search function must be broke

[Velvet-Casket]

Rsss396:....as a matter of fact this question is asked and answered every week or two at the most!
250rice:From my understanding it is increased power everywhere...low mid and top is all increased drastically. Supposedly one of the best mods you can do to an R.

[Derrick Adams]

Isn't the ESR ignition a CR ignition? I just find it hard to believe that you would gain low-end by switching to such a small flywheel.

[C41Xracer]

Originally posted by Derrick Adams
Isn't the ESR ignition a CR ignition? I just find it hard to believe that you would gain low-end by switching to such a small flywheel.
i dont find it hard to believe, the ignition is advanced by 8deg to start

[addictedtomud]

I agree with Derrick's line of thinking on this. I prefer stock ignition due to the lug-ability (heavier flywheel) as long as the stock ignition is working properly. I can see why people replace their broken or worn out electrical systems with a fresh, updated version. And I'm sure gigantic, high compression motors are easier to start with ESR's setup. Maybe I would run one if anyone knows of a flywheel weight to make it like stock. I can lug my 350pv way low and not stall. That inertia saves alot of clutching and shifting in the woods IMO.

[Fear250r]

I love the cr ignition, it's great around the pits, the little track we have and for fast trails. It revs extremely fast and is in powerband within seconds it seems.
However, when we get to the sloooow, rocky, rutted trails, I'm wishing I had the stock ignition on.

[atvmxr]

Originally posted by rsss396
Don't we answer this question every month?

I guess the search function must be broke

probably because you cant search for ESR or CR.... ;)

:D

[Fear250r]

Originally posted by atvmxr
probably because you cant search for ESR or CR.... ;)

:D

785 Results when searching for "ignition"

:D

[Burns310r]

If everyone started useing the seach function and stopped asking questions this forum would get quite in a hurry. Just about anything and everything that has to do with a 250r has been covered on this forum already once.

If you guys dont like it dont post???? whats so hard about that???

Why hassle a guy thats here to learn. Every one has a different learning curve.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

The question about the CR ignition probably does get ask a few time, but to me, it makes me feel good that somebody still needs me for something.

The lite flywheel does make the engine rev faster as well as slow down & that takes some getting youst to.

What you gain though from the CR ignition system over the old TRX system, longer you wait to get the CR set up, more you will kick yourself once you do get it for not doing it sooner.
I know I did, kicked myself good for messing around & waiting so long to get one.

Moose, offers a flywheel weight for the CR ignition system.
Neil

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by addictedtomud
I agree with Derrick's line of thinking on this. I prefer stock ignition due to the lug-ability (heavier flywheel) as long as the stock ignition is working properly. I can see why people replace their broken or worn out electrical systems with a fresh, updated version. And I'm sure gigantic, high compression motors are easier to start with ESR's setup. Maybe I would run one if anyone knows of a flywheel weight to make it like stock. I can lug my 350pv way low and not stall. That inertia saves alot of clutching and shifting in the woods IMO.

this is why someone needs to wire a CR CDI into a stock trx 250r ignition. :devil: :devil:

[Burns310r]

Does the flywheel weight provide much difference? Any links to the particular weight?

[Ruf Racing]

Originally posted by Burns310r
If you guys dont like it dont post???? whats so hard about that???

Why hassle a guy thats here to learn. Every one has a different learning curve.

^^ That's my thinking ^^ :D

[C-LEIGH RACING]

I cant remember how much the flywheel weight weighs, but seems like it will get it back to, if not more weight than the TRX flywheel.

Theres another place has CR flywheel weights, but cant remember what company it was.
I know Curtis Sparks had a weight for the stock TRX flywheel for the GNCC engines
Neil

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by C-LEIGH RACING
I cant remember how much the flywheel weight weighs, but seems like it will get it back if not more weight than the TRX flywheel.

Theres another place has CR flywheel weights, but cant remember what company it was.
I know Curtis Sparks had a weight for the stock TRX flywheel for the GNCC engines
Neil

But we have to remember here, that a smaller diameter flywheel on the CR will not have as great of a "flywheel" effect as a larger diameter flywheel on the trx would. I'm not engineer here but i bet it would take quite a bit more weight on a smaller flywheel to get the same effect on a larger, lighter flywheel.

Not trying to correct you, just making sure everyone knows that a flywheel weight most likely will not make the CR flywheel equivalent to the TRX flywheel.

[Burns310r]

You are correct sir, but its a step in the right direction.

[Jesse1980]

I just got my cr ignition kit today. I will let you know what I think about it.

[250rice]

thank you all for helping me make up my mind it looks like iam going to get one does any one sell one cheaper than esr that would be a big help to oh mabe i should use the search box first before you guys get really mad

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by Honda 250r 001
But we have to remember here, that a smaller diameter flywheel on the CR will not have as great of a "flywheel" effect as a larger diameter flywheel on the trx would. I'm not engineer here but i bet it would take quite a bit more weight on a smaller flywheel to get the same effect on a larger, lighter flywheel.

Not trying to correct you, just making sure everyone knows that a flywheel weight most likely will not make the CR flywheel equivalent to the TRX flywheel.

Absolutely correct. Even if they are the exact same weight, the CR flywheel would rev much faster because of the smaller diameter.

[fearlessfred]

Originally posted by Burns310r
If everyone started useing the seach function and stopped asking questions this forum would get quite in a hurry. Just about anything and everything that has to do with a 250r has been covered on this forum already once.

If you guys dont like it dont post???? whats so hard about that???

Why hassle a guy thats here to learn. Every one has a different learning curve. x2 keep asking questions. i learn something from allmost all posts

[1promodfan]

YES, its well worth the money. Just like Neil said, you'll be kicking yourself for not getting one sooner!!

[Fear250r]

Originally posted by 250rice
thank you all for helping me make up my mind it looks like iam going to get one does any one sell one cheaper than esr that would be a big help to oh mabe i should use the search box first before you guys get really mad

Just bustin' your balls bro, don't worry about it.

Seriously though, if you can hang out for a while, wait to find a used one. I scored mine for 300 bucks off a member here.

[atv fan 28]

Originally posted by Burns310r
If everyone started useing the seach function and stopped asking questions this forum would get quite in a hurry. Just about anything and everything that has to do with a 250r has been covered on this forum already once.

If you guys dont like it dont post???? whats so hard about that???

Why hassle a guy thats here to learn. Every one has a different learning curve.

Well said Burns!!

But I believe the ESR ignition is one of the best mods you can do to a R.

[jcs003]

Originally posted by Honda 250r 001
But we have to remember here, that a smaller diameter flywheel on the CR will not have as great of a "flywheel" effect as a larger diameter flywheel on the trx would. I'm not engineer here but i bet it would take quite a bit more weight on a smaller flywheel to get the same effect on a larger, lighter flywheel.

Not trying to correct you, just making sure everyone knows that a flywheel weight most likely will not make the CR flywheel equivalent to the TRX flywheel.

if the cr ignition with weight is spinning faster than a stock flywheel does it will have a similiar effect or better.

F=ma force=mass x acceleration

there is a lil more to it, but the premise is baseically the same.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

I'm not quite following that weight deal either, if an external weight is added to the CR flywheel.

If you weigh the TRX flywheel & then weigh the CR one, yes theres quite a bit of difference between the two flywheels total weight, but, if you add weight to the CR flywheel & get it up to the same weight as the TRX flywheel, are you not trying to rotate the same amount of mass as the stock TRX flywheel would be.
Yes the CR is smaller OD than the TRX flywheel, but if both weigh the same after added the weight to the CR, then it takes just as much force to rotate either one.


About the CR250R ignition systems, 2000 & up year models are digital & what most will use in the conversion, but the older models below the 2000 year, they can be used as well but are analog CDI.
Still though, even though the old CR is analog ignition just like the old TRX ignition system, it is a far greater improvement than having to deal with the old TRX system.
Neil

[Burns310r]

The F= M x A does play a difference with diameter.

Example.

Say we have a disk with uniform mass all the way from the inside to the outside.

You start to spin it, the inside portion of a disk. (pick a spot doesnt matter) will be accelerating as you speed up. Now if you slide directly out to the outside of the flywheel to a point, it will be the same mass, but the acceleration will be much higher, because it has to accelerate faster to stay at the same spot as the inside of the wheel.

So the Force generated will be larger. F = Mass (fixed) x accelration (larger because it has to be) will make the Force generated larger.



So by adding weight to the CR flywheel it will increace th force produced, but it wont create the same force as a flywheel that has the same mass but is 2x larger in diameter. due to the fact that the acceleration changed with diameter.




Im not a teacher, so i dont have the best way of describing things, but i hope some of you could follow that.


Adding weight to the CR ignition will help it a lot, but even if you add weight to it to make it as heavy as a Stock TRX, it wont generate the same force.


If someone could give me the dimensions and weights of the two flywheels, i could possibly calculate the needed weight to add to a CR flywheel to get the same effect, might have to dust off my physics books from college.

[troybilt]

This goes way back for me... but:

Look up angular momentum. That will get you there. Law of conservation of momentum... BTW.

L= Iw, I is the mass moment of inertion of the object and there is an R for radius in the Inertia equation, w is the angular acceleration, L is the total angular momentum.

...and L = Iw can be derived from F=MA...

[C-LEIGH RACING]

:eek2: :p Ya'll better stop that cussing on here, all them fancy words :D .
Neil

[2-330s]

pick 25 lbs up from by you leg, then pick that same weight up with your arm fully extended. there it a lot of difference there.

[jcs003]

Originally posted by Burns310r
The F= M x A does play a difference with diameter.

Example.

Say we have a disk with uniform mass all the way from the inside to the outside.

You start to spin it, the inside portion of a disk. (pick a spot doesnt matter) will be accelerating as you speed up. Now if you slide directly out to the outside of the flywheel to a point, it will be the same mass, but the acceleration will be much higher, because it has to accelerate faster to stay at the same spot as the inside of the wheel.

So the Force generated will be larger. F = Mass (fixed) x accelration (larger because it has to be) will make the Force generated larger.



So by adding weight to the CR flywheel it will increace th force produced, but it wont create the same force as a flywheel that has the same mass but is 2x larger in diameter. due to the fact that the acceleration changed with diameter.




Im not a teacher, so i dont have the best way of describing things, but i hope some of you could follow that.


Adding weight to the CR ignition will help it a lot, but even if you add weight to it to make it as heavy as a Stock TRX, it wont generate the same force.


If someone could give me the dimensions and weights of the two flywheels, i could possibly calculate the needed weight to add to a CR flywheel to get the same effect, might have to dust off my physics books from college.

it been quite a while since i did these problems. freshman year i think.haha

we cant look at this as centrifugal. its the centripedal forces that matter. acceleration and decelleration of the flywheel at the crank.

you would be correct if the mass was at the perimeter of the circular path. like swinging a weight at the end of a rope or something like that.

i looked around on the net to find some other info but was unsuccessful. someone will locate some good info on this.

[Derrick Adams]

So really its back to figuring out how to wire a CR ignition into a trx stator signal

[troybilt]

I'm sending Wilkin250r a perfectly good stator to experiment with to do just that. I hope to pick up a CR iginition this weekend.

[All250R]

Been a while for me too, but wouldn't we use kinetic energy, rather than force, which would be e=1/2m x v^2, which is the similar formula used for rotational energy? In that case the angular distance would make a much larger difference in stored energy at a given rpm than mass. That said, the CR flywheel doesn't feel too awfully different to me than a lightened TRX flywheel.

I'll be a little controversial too and say that the TRX ignition if its healthy doesn't make much difference either. The timing curves between the CDI's from rsss's work shows that the CR ignition is actually a bit more retarded than the TRX ignition. The CR enjoys the benefit of the powervalve and would require less timing than a less efficient combustion process in the usual TRX cylinder. Advancing the timing mechanically is going to make a larger difference than the CDI map between the CR and the TRX. I don't recommend the expense of the CR igntion unless you have a problem with the TRX ignition, or really want to lessen the flywheel effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotational_energy

[jcs003]

this is explaining that the mass is the signifigant component of flywheel effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel

the diameter of the rotating mass appears to be less signifigant in the energy storing properties of the flywheel.

[wilkin250r]

Wow. I know the physics behind it, and I still have no idea what you guys are talking about. :huh

Diameter DOES make a significant impact. If you took two disks of identical weight, but one of those disks was twice the diameter, it would take significantly more force to spin it.

I don't want to get too technical with equations and all that, so I'll explain it in simple terms. It's just like torque on a wrench. A longer wrench enables you apply more torque, because torque is force times distance. Same thing. If you can use a longer wrench to apply more torque, than it stands to reason that it requires more torque to spin something that's further away from it's center.

Anybody actually want to see equations proving the same, let me know, I'll gladly post them up.

[slamdak8782]

So much easier to understand. Thanks wilkin

[All250R]

Originally posted by jcs003
this is explaining that the mass is the signifigant component of flywheel effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel

the diameter of the rotating mass appears to be less signifigant in the energy storing properties of the flywheel.
But in those various formulae for the different flywheel types, the radius or angular velocity is what's squared.

This is how I picture it. I think of the rpm's of a spinning ice skater who when they tuck their arms and legs closer to their body the stored energy makes them spin at those super fast speeds. They started with the same energy, but the reduced angular momentum, causes the axis to spin pretty fast, which indicates a lot of energy is required to spin at the larger radi. Check this out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQLtcEAG9v0

[jcs003]

Originally posted by wilkin250r
Wow. I know the physics behind it, and I still have no idea what you guys are talking about. :huh

Diameter DOES make a significant impact. If you took two disks of identical weight, but one of those disks was twice the diameter, it would take significantly more force to spin it.

I don't want to get too technical with equations and all that, so I'll explain it in simple terms. It's just like torque on a wrench. A longer wrench enables you apply more torque, because torque is force time distance. Same thing. If you can use a longer wrench to apply more torque, than it stands to reason that it requires more torque to spin something that's further away from it's center.

Anybody actually want to see equations proving the same, let me know, I'll gladly post them up.

a flywheel is an energy storing device. now, getting it moving is the easy part. that is where your moment/torque equations come into play. keeping it moving is whats important. the forces acting on the crank are centripedal. so, the smaller diameter, similiar mass will have a better flywheel effect than a larger diameter flywheel. you are correct that the larger diameter is capable of storing more energy per se. i.e. r^2. but at a cost in performance. a smaller diameter/equal mass, will spool up faster and stay spinning longer, while creating enough torque to have a managable power delivery.

once in object is in motion it stays in motion until an outside force acts upon it.

i dont want to turn this into a carlos type thread, but i can derive the equations too.

[addictedtomud]

Anyone ever operate a wood chipper? It has a gigantic diameter, very heavy flywheel. Takes forever to get it going, but once it is spinning up to speed is almost impossible to stop due to inertia. That spinning flywheel has gobs of torque due to its weight and diameter. If they made it smaller in diameter or weight, it would have less torque.

That same principle applies to a 250r flywheel. I simply prefer a stock flywheel because that torque allows me to lug it through a low rpm without stalling - that big ol flywheel just keeps the motor churning (compared to a lighter and smaller cr flywheel). Yes a cr will rev up quicker and the motor will seem snappy / responsive. That's appealing to some riders who don't prefer torque (dunes, mx, tt). I am a woods / XC rider.

If you add enough weight to a cr flywheel to make it the equal to stock, it still will not have the same torque as a stock flywheel because its not the same diameter! It would actually have to be much heavier.

[Burns310r]

everyone keeps saying the same thing. I feel like we are beating a dead horse here.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Well I aint through yet :p .
Those flywheel weights for the CR flywheel, are the same OD as a stock TRX flywheel. So, would that make any difference.

Wouldnt adding weight to the flywheel be like an extra load on the crank that it has to spin.

Those flywheel weights offered, if they do nothing, why would a company bother producing them.

I know this much for sure, you add the weight offered for the stock TRX flywheel, to the flywheel & it will make that engine sluggish when revving & will slow from revving as well.
Neil

[Burns310r]

The flywheel weights will help. As stated.

if you add enough weight to the CR flywheel to make it as heavy as a Trx, it wont be the same still. It will be much improved over a stock CR, but not the same as a stock TRX. ITs due to the where the weight is in relation to the diameter. The more weight you have at the out side will provide more inertia.

What flywheel weight do you recomment C-Leigh? I would like to buy one that will help out my small flywheel issue. Haha.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Moose, had one for the CR engine I know for sure & there was another company offered them, but I cant remember what name it was.
Sparks had one for the stock TRX flywheel.
Neil

[slamdak8782]

whats the difference between digital ignition and stock 250r setup. If the stator was rewound on the trx250r and a timing advance adaptor plate installed wouldnt it be almost as advantageous as the CR setup and then you still have lights

[croat1]

Originally posted by C-LEIGH RACING
Moose, had one for the CR engine I know for sure & there was another company offered them, but I cant remember what name it was.
Sparks had one for the stock TRX flywheel.
Neil



the other company that offers flywheel weights for the CR is:
Steahly Off Road


neil: you wouldn't happen to have a curtis sparks weighted trx flywheel lying around would you? to sell me

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by jcs003
a smaller diameter/equal mass, will spool up faster and stay spinning longer,

This is a direct contradiction. Anything that accelerates easier will also decelerate easier. That's simple, unavoidable physics, whether linear, rotational, or even thermal. If a smaller flywheel spools up faster, it will "spool down" faster as well.

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by C-LEIGH RACING
Well I aint through yet :p .
Those flywheel weights for the CR flywheel, are the same OD as a stock TRX flywheel. So, would that make any difference.

Wouldnt adding weight to the flywheel be like an extra load on the crank that it has to spin.

Those flywheel weights offered, if they do nothing, why would a company bother producing them.

I know this much for sure, you add the weight offered for the stock TRX flywheel, to the flywheel & it will make that engine sluggish when revving & will slow from revving as well.
Neil

Close, Neil, you're on the right track. Those flywheel weights DO have an effect. Any mass you add to the flywheel will make it slower to rev, any mass will have an effect.

All we were saying was that mass isn't the only aspect, the diameter also factors into it. Making the CR flywheel the same weight as the TRX flywheel doesn't mean they'll act the same, because the CR flywheel is still smaller diameter.

[jcs003]

Originally posted by wilkin250r
This is a direct contradiction. Anything that accelerates easier will also decelerate easier. That's simple, unavoidable physics, whether linear, rotational, or even thermal. If a smaller flywheel spools up faster, it will "spool down" faster as well.

newtons first law. law of inertia.

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by C-LEIGH RACING
Well I aint through yet :p .
Those flywheel weights for the CR flywheel, are the same OD as a stock TRX flywheel. So, would that make any difference.

Ok, I wrote this really long post, but as I read it back to myself, I got bored with it. I won't blame you a bit if you you don't feel like reading it. And I couldn't bring myself to create pictures. It would make it easier to understand, but it's still boring as hell

I did this in two posts, to make it easier to understand.

Since your flywheel weight is the same diameter as a TRX flywheel, it DOES make a difference, and the best way to explain is to use the torque wrench example again.

Torque is really what we're talking about here. We all think of torque on a bolt using a torque wrench, but in reality, it's ANY rotational force.

The CR flywheel is like putting a short wrench on something. Let's say it's 8 inches long (0.75ft), and you apply 12 lbs of force. Your resulting torque is (12lbs*0.75ft=9ft-lbs of torque). A TRX flywheel is larger, so let's make our wrench 12 inches long (1 foot), and it's heavier, so let's put 16 lbs on our wrench. (16lbs*1ft=16flt-lbs of torque).

Bored yet?

Ok, so let's make our CR flywheel the same weight at the TRX, by putting 16lbs of force on our wrench. It's still only 8 inches long (0.75 ft), so we get (16lbs*0.75ft=12ft-lbs) That's still 25% shy of the 16ft-lbs we had with the TRX flywheel, even though they're the same weight.

So let's use the original CR flywheel (12lbs*0.75ft=9ft-lbs), but the additional weight of 4lbs, we'll also make that larger so it will be added at 12 inches, instead of 8 inches.

(12*0.75) + (4lbs*1ft)=9+4 That comes out to 13ft-lbs. That's more than the 12ft-lbs we had by just making the CR flywheel the same weight as the TRX, but we're still shy of the TRX's 16ft-lbs.

So the additional diameter DOES have an effect on the flywheel weight, but it's still not the same. We would have to make the total weight HEAVIER than the TRX flywheel to get the same effect, to make up for the smaller diameter.

[Burns310r]

Originally posted by wilkin250r
Close, Neil, you're on the right track. Those flywheel weights DO have an effect. Any mass you add to the flywheel will make it slower to rev, any mass will have an effect.

All we were saying was that mass isn't the only aspect, the diameter also factors into it. Making the CR flywheel the same weight as the TRX flywheel doesn't mean they'll act the same, because the CR flywheel is still smaller diameter.

I have been saying the same thing here. Glad someone is on the same page as me.

[troybilt]

You see! Sometimes its good to ask similar questions, heck we got 6 pages worth of good discussion!!!

[jcs003]

Originally posted by Burns310r
I have been saying the same thing here. Glad someone is on the same page as me.

with all do respect. you guys are grossely oversimplifying this.

[Burns310r]

That was the point.... Make it so it was easy for everyone to understand. Regardless it is correct.

I could pound out all kinds of equations and make it overly complicated, but whats the point. It will just prove what we have already said.

Diameter and mass have an effect on rotational inertia.

Given this example oh flywheels, two objects even if they where the same mass (add appropriate weight to the CR flywheel), one x diameter and one with a diameter of 2x ( just rounding). The one with 2x will have larger rotational inertia.

[jcs003]

Originally posted by Burns310r
That was the point.... Make it so it was easy for everyone to understand. Regardless it is correct.

I could pound out all kinds of equations and make it overly complicated, but whats the point. It will just prove what we have already said.

Diameter and mass have an effect on rotational inertia.

Given this example oh flywheels, two objects even if they where the same mass (add appropriate weight to the CR flywheel), one x diameter and one with a diameter of 2x ( just rounding). The one with 2x will have larger rotational inertia.

this isnt a simple plug & play physics problem. the whole rotating assembly plays a role on the flywheels overall effect and inertial energy. get out your diff eq's book if you want the correct equations to explain this correctly.

[wilkin250r]

Yeah, but what's the point in the differential equations? An answer of "425.8 joules"doesn't do anybody any good. We're not looking for specific answers, we're looking for a basic rule of thumb.

I'll use Neil as an example. That guy knows more about high performance than we'll ever know. That guy has forgotten more about the 250r engine than you or I will ever know combined. He's a 250r guru.

But he's under the misconception that mass is all the same, that diameter doesn't play any factor in flywheel effect. He isn't going to be interested in a bunch of differential equations, he doesn't need to know the moment of inertia on the crankshaft, he doesn't care how many joules the piston expends on it's upstroke.

He just wants a basic understanding of the issue. So we gave him a basic explanation.

[jcs003]

Originally posted by wilkin250r
Yeah, but what's the point in the differential equations? An answer of "425.8 joules"doesn't do anybody any good. We're not looking for specific answers, we're looking for a basic rule of thumb.

I'll use Neil as an example. That guy knows more about high performance than we'll ever know. That guy has forgotten more about the 250r engine than you or I will ever know combined. He's a 250r guru.

But he's under the misconception that mass is all the same, that diameter doesn't play any factor in flywheel effect. He isn't going to be interested in a bunch of differential equations, he doesn't need to know the moment of inertia on the crankshaft, he doesn't care how many joules the piston expends on it's upstroke.

He just wants a basic understanding of the issue. So we gave him a basic explanation.

ok. now i see a basic understanding is what we were after. i realize that i over complicated the subject.

i would never question neils authority as a 250r guru. nor was i trying to insult you(wilkin250r) as you are an extremely knowledgable guy. you have helped me in the past.

bottom line is: with the weighted cr250 flywheel it is a beneficial compromise to have a rich spark energy, while maintaining stock luggability. if that is a word.

[Jason Hall]

I had this discussion with Derrick Adams when we built his flywheel weight. With his I started with a Huge weight and slowly widdled It down until I found a happy place between fitting It under the cover, and seat of the pants feel. If you want LOTS better roll on power, and Lots more traction heavier Is better! I'm sure there Is a point when the added weight will overcome the strength of the flywheel key. I started at about 4LBs of added weight LOL, and ended up with close to 2 lbs added to the stock flywheel. The engine pulls 1 gear higher off the same turn and does not spinn the tire's off the rims like It did before. Our weight Is bigger In diameter than a stock R flywheel, by about .125. I made a spacer for the stator cover to fit.

I tested It on my personal ATC250R, with the weight around 4 lbs. It would rev very lazy when just burping the throttle when In neutral, but pulled Very nice still through the gears. It Smoothed the power out BIGTIME, but did rev to slow. Where It would ride a out of control wheelie with the stock flywheel, It rode controlable wheelie's with the added weight. I noticed the engine braking was less, I found that It wanted to roll deeper Into the turns. So I was forced to use more brake's, but the roll on power was Unbelievable. Our finished weight looks Alot like a sparks weight, but Is probably a touch heavier. I would like to play with the CR setup. I would be sure the more modern Ignition would be a big Improvement, but just don't know If the power would be as smooth as the weighted stock setup???

Everytime I think about the diameter of any flywheel, I think about my old John Deere B tractor. You started It by hand with the flywheel, and Man they are freekin torque monsters. I would Imagine It was partially because of the huge flywheel keeping the big long stoke spinning Inbetween the cylinders firing. Great discussion, I enjoyed reading It All!!!

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by Jason Hall

Everytime I think about the diameter of any flywheel, I think about my old John Deere B tractor. You started It by hand with the flywheel, and Man they are freekin torque monsters. I would Imagine It was partially because of the huge flywheel

Indeed. A flywheel is really an energy storage device. You're taking energy from the combustion stroke of the engine, and spreading that energy out for all the other strokes.

If you look at a simple flywheel, the energy stored "E" is equal to the mass times the radius squared times the rotational speed squared, divided by two.

E=(1/2)*(M)*(R^2)*(W^2)

Boring so far, but if you look at this equation, double the mass ends up with double the energy. Double the diameter ends up with FOUR times the energy. The equation changes a bit depending on how the weight is distributed around the flywheel, but you get the idea.

[Jason Hall]

Originally posted by wilkin250r
Indeed. A flywheel is really an energy storage device. You're taking energy from the combustion stroke of the engine, and spreading that energy out for all the other strokes.

If you look at a simple flywheel, the energy stored "E" is equal to the mass times the radius squared times the rotational speed squared, divided by two.

E=(1/2)*(M)*(R^2)*(W^2)

Boring so far, but if you look at this equation, double the mass ends up with double the energy. Double the diameter ends up with FOUR times the energy. The equation changes a bit depending on how the weight is distributed around the flywheel, but you get the idea.

Not bored at all, this Is some good stuff :D

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Hold on now,,, I dont know about all this guru stuff ya'll talking about, no not me.

All I know, is what I've put my hands on over the years that if it worked or it didnt work & normally, had to take nothing & make something out of it. School of hard knocks is where I learned.


All I know about this flywheel weight deal, is what I've seen the years I've done it, & all the books you want to read or how ever many fancy figures you want to add in for it, not going to mean to much when you sitting on a hill revving to the moon spinning tires trying to get up it & that ol boy with bib overalls on & ragged out ol 4 wheeler come lugging by you right on up to the top cause he has a weight on his flywheel.

Books say a fly, not suppose to be able to fly, but guess what.

In racing, you got to go slow first before you can BE fast.
Neil

[twopump78]

doesn't it mean the heavier the flywheel the more power it takes to move it??? and harder it is to stop it???

[troybilt]

I just picked up a CR ignition and all I want to know is who makes a weight for it so I can lug this beast?

[jcs003]

how is the PVL ignition? it has a very small diameter flywheel. it actually rides inside the stator.

now the consensus implies it will be no good for any type of "lugging". i assume it will only be good on a drag engine...

[1promodfan]

Originally posted by troybilt
I just picked up a CR ignition and all I want to know is who makes a weight for it so I can lug this beast?

I never had any problem lugging mine.

[troybilt]

I found them thanks to Joe.

Here's the site for the CR weights:

http://www.steahlyoffroad.com/

[KSRRider]

Can't believe I just found this thread. GREAT discussion.

If you're lucky enough to have both a stock trx ignition and a CR ignition in good working order then the only way to ever determine what is going to work best for your application is to run each system in the same environment. I have played with both and will say that the CR does not 'lug' as good as the TRX as you would expect, but the trade-off is for easy starting high compression big bore engines and super fast revs. I love the trx ignition in the woods, it hangs in there forever and lets you ride lazy. It's alot more 'work' to ride the CR ignition in the woods but at the end of the day if it's a 'race' situation I'll take the CR everytime, no matter what the situation.

Maybe it's true that the trx ignition allows for a smoother, more tractable pull than the small flywheel of the CR, but the CR ignition creates the 'illusion' that you're going faster or accelerating faster but I'm ok with that, still prefer it :D

[jcs003]

Originally posted by KSRRider
Can't believe I just found this thread. GREAT discussion.

If you're lucky enough to have both a stock trx ignition and a CR ignition in good working order then the only way to ever determine what is going to work best for your application is to run each system in the same environment. I have played with both and will say that the CR does not 'lug' as good as the TRX as you would expect, but the trade-off is for easy starting high compression big bore engines and super fast revs. I love the trx ignition in the woods, it hangs in there forever and lets you ride lazy. It's alot more 'work' to ride the CR ignition in the woods but at the end of the day if it's a 'race' situation I'll take the CR everytime, no matter what the situation.

Maybe it's true that the trx ignition allows for a smoother, more tractable pull than the small flywheel of the CR, but the CR ignition creates the 'illusion' that you're going faster or accelerating faster but I'm ok with that, still prefer it :D

KSRRider, with your experience with both systems. do you think with the proper gearing, tire selection and pipe; that the stock ignition's tractability can be recouped using the cr ignition? seeing how the cr's reliability is its best attribute.

[KSRRider]

I dunno, to some extent yes.

Love to see what those flywheel weights would do for the CR system that Troy had posted a link to before. Everyone will have their preference. I run two 310's, one is drag ported one is low end ported. The drag port has the CR ignition and the low end ported 310 has the TRX ignition. I have ran the CR on the low end ported engine just to see how much low end I lost. To me it didn't feel significant but it may not have been a true test since I was out in the snow and traction was limited!

[2-330s]

ksrrider you should try the ftz drag ignition if you want a fast reving motor 5 oz flywheel:eek2:

[jcs003]

Originally posted by 2-330s
ksrrider you should try the ftz drag ignition if you want a fast reving motor 5 oz flywheel:eek2:

do you know what the PVL flywheel weighs?

[2-330s]

not off hand i have a friend that runs one. his pvl is lighter than his cr flywheel was. if you buy the pvl from ftz they are digital instead of analog. i here people complain about the analog ones.

[250rRyan]

lets see some dyno's with and without the cr ignition setup on the same R . That should show what's going on with each setup. IF it don't gain me more hp and torque then spending close to $600 for that up grade isn't worth it to me.

[1promodfan]

Originally posted by 250rRyan
lets see some dyno's with and without the cr ignition setup on the same R . That should show what's going on with each setup. IF it don't gain me more hp and torque then spending close to $600 for that up grade isn't worth it to me.

Believe me............its worth it!! If you ever get one, you'll agree 100%!!:D

[wilkin250r]

A dyno isn't going to show you throttle response (that you'll get with a hotter spark and timing advance), acceleration (that you'll get with a lighter flywheel), and easier starts, or show you what the CR ignition will ALLOW you to do (higher compression and higher revs)

Dyno numbers aren't everything. There are a lot of real and valuable aspects to a motor that won't show up on a dyno graph.

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by troybilt
I found them thanks to Joe.

Here's the site for the CR weights:

http://www.steahlyoffroad.com/

Troy, gimme an update. Did you ever get flywheel weight? Did you try it before and after? What's the results, I'm curious, because I just got two CR 250 ignitions, and I'm thinking about flywheel weights.

[troybilt]

No not yet... My bike isn't done yet. Just got the adapter plate in yesterday.

[wilkin250r]

Are you going to make ME be the guinea pig?

Although I just got my ignitions in, it will be a little while before I can thoroughly test them. I could ride up and down my street, but all the surrounding area is still covered in snow, I can't really test in real-world riding conditions.

I probably won't be able to give a proper review until spring when I hit the dunes.

And looking at the website you posted, those guys are really expensive! $100+ for a flywheel weight seems kinds pricey to me. I'm probably still willing to do it, especially if you don't, just so we can have the info on here. But I was expecting somewhere in the $35 range... :ermm:

[troybilt]

Might talk to Joe (croat1) he was going to buy one of every size to test. I don't know if he has done that yet or not. I don't know where to start, I was going probably go in the middle somewhere..., like 10 or 12oz.. maybe Neil has a suggestion on weight to try..

[croat1]

Originally posted by troybilt
Might talk to Joe (croat1) he was going to buy one of every size to test. I don't know if he has done that yet or not. I don't know where to start, I was going probably go in the middle somewhere..., like 10 or 12oz.. maybe Neil has a suggestion on weight to try..



i was looking at later this summer to experiment with the weights.