Questions about sparks key.

[DirtyBirdRacing]

I keep reading posts about how good a sparks timing key is and haven't come across any bad things about them. I'm just wondering if any one has personaly used one and something went bad because of it, over heating issues, anything. Just trying to get an idea of some negatives about useing one. Also, does anyone know where I can find information on how much of an horsepower gain it may give maybe a before & after Dino chart?

[ish416]

A timing key is the most cost effective upgrade you can do to a stock internal EX engine. I am not sure how much power it adds by itself but you will notice an increase in torque and throttle response will be a bit snappier.

There are no negatives at all as long as you are running a stock compression or 10:1 piston.

The key is $20 and it does make a noticeable improvement.

Here is the link for the key. (http://www.alwaysopenmall.com/layouts/02/unsecure/item.asp?SiteID=223&DepartmentID=85&CategoryID=949&GroupID=7033&ItemID=31633&StartNum=1&Sort=&ShowPics=0&ListByCode=1&Brand=&GenderAgeGroupID=0&MaxPrice=&SearchString=&ItemCode=&IsOnlyOnSale=0&FromHomePage=0&FromFamily=0&ProductFamilyID=0&RelatedItemID=0)

[DragonGunner]

Seems to me that I read somewhere when they came out that you gain about 2 horsepower. Thats a big gain for a little money. I have one in a stock motor, been nothing but good, no troubles...Sparks will tell you not to use in a built motor with high compression.

[MtnEX]

I know guys have been getting braver with the sparks keys and more compression.

So who is above 10:1 and what do you have?

[rcatvrider]

If incorrectly installed you can shear the key off but if installed correctly there's no downside granted you're running a stock bore.

[fearlessfred]

Originally posted by MtnEX
I know guys have been getting braver with the sparks keys and more compression.

So who is above 10:1 and what do you have? if u raised the octane with the increase in compression it should be allright,but that would be like thowing money away. all the key is doing is advancing the timing

[DragonGunner]

Originally posted by fearlessfred
if u raised the octane with the increase in compression it should be allright,but that would be like thowing money away. all the key is doing is advancing the timing

Advancing the timing is what the Sparks does, this is what will heat up the engine. You raise the octane for higher compression to prevent pre-ignition an hand grenading the engine. Higher octane, plus high compression, plus Sparks key can still mean trouble. I don't recommend it, an I know over the phone Sparks will say "Don't do it!!"

[quadmanw]

Can you run high octane with a stock motor and they key?

[MtnEX]

Yeah, 6 degrees of across the board mechanical advance is fairly aggressive.

Are some guys choosing to do maximum pump gas compression instead?

[DragonGunner]

Originally posted by quadmanw
Can you run high octane with a stock motor and they key?

Sure, but then again you don't have to either. Octane should be matched
to compression. Better a litttle over than under, plus IMO higher octane seems to be cleaner. I ran aviation 100 octane in a 428EX with 11:1, if I ran 93 it would start to "ping", even though Wiseco said 93 would be enough it wasn't...I ran alot of hours on that 428EX an 2 years later when I tore it down the piston, cylinder, was way cleaner than thought, great near perfect condition...plus the guys behind me seemed to enjoy the high octane aroma!!!!

I usually ran 93 octane in the stock motor, an same with the Sparks Key installed.

[chronicsmoke]

My 426 doesnt have a cam and is using 10:1 compression.. Would I benefit from the Key, or should I just stick to my plans of installing a cam when doing the valve train maintenance?

[fearlessfred]

Originally posted by DragonGunner
Advancing the timing is what the Sparks does, this is what will heat up the engine. You raise the octane for higher compression to prevent pre-ignition an hand grenading the engine. Higher octane, plus high compression, plus Sparks key can still mean trouble. I don't recommend it, an I know over the phone Sparks will say "Don't do it!!" u kinda missed my point.maybe i should be less smartass and more to the point.I definitly agree with u and sparks.when saying dont do it.my point is that ignition timing and octane are so interelated that one should not be mentioned without the other.advancing the timing is an attempt to get the flamefront to meet the piston as soon as it starts its downward travel,instead of chasing the piston on its downward travel causing a loss in power. higher octane fuel slows the burn time and burns more evenly.so if u were to add the sparks key and raise the octane to much then you would be canceling the affects of the sparks key.honda built the motor to last thru the 6 month warrenty in the worst of conditions and the poorest of fuels and that is the reason they dont have more advance in it in the first place. when raising compression the mix is more explosive and the piston is closer to the sparkplug and so u dont need as advance in the timing .EXCESSIVE ADVANCES IN TIMING will cause pinging or knocking and possible engine damage. sparks is a highly regarded shop and would not lead u in the wrong direction.when raising compression in this motor u have lost the need to advance the timing .if u are building a motor,raising the compression is one of the easest ways to make more power and the advance key shouldnt even be concidered as part of the build.

[DragonGunner]

I just may of missed your point, in the previous post, what you said above is spot on. Just didn't want anyone hurting their motor.

[fearlessfred]

i was trying not to sound like a broken record,because i am constently preaching to use only enough octane to prevent pinging,detonation,knocking preignition plus a little for insurance. anymore than needed will cause losses in horsepower and your wallet.i have nothing against race fuel and i use it when needed and the correct octane needed.lots of people beleive that high octane fuel is instant power and it is not.now i really do sound like a broken record and im not offended if somebody wants to tell me to shutup

[DragonGunner]

Originally posted by fearlessfred
i was trying not to sound like a broken record,because i am constently preaching to use only enough octane to prevent pinging,detonation,knocking preignition plus a little for insurance. anymore than needed will cause losses in horsepower and your wallet.i have nothing against race fuel and i use it when needed and the correct octane needed.lots of people beleive that high octane fuel is instant power and it is not.now i really do sound like a broken record and im not offended if somebody wants to tell me to shutup

Ha....your right on the just enough octane, a little over is better than a little under....but my brother in law runs 113 race gas in his piped 450R, I've tryed telling him thats way over kill......it runs good, but would probably run better on 93.....can't seem to convice him.

[fearlessfred]

Originally posted by DragonGunner
Ha....your right on the just enough octane, a little over is better than a little under....but my brother in law runs 113 race gas in his piped 450R, I've tryed telling him thats way over kill......it runs good, but would probably run better on 93.....can't seem to convice him. a fool and his money will soon be departed

[DragonGunner]

Originally posted by fearlessfred
a fool and his money will soon be departed

Except in this case he runs his own trucking business hauling GAS! I betting he's getting it cheaper than most.

[DirtyBirdRacing]

So my understanding is that there is nothing bad about installing a key with a stock bore? my friend said that the heat from the stock motor makes the pin drop in the motor. so with the key it would make it more likely?

Is he wrong with it droping the pin? has any one ever herd about this problem and is it a common problem?

[MtnEX]

A couple of you guys have typed up enough knowledge/experience to make this a pretty good thread.


Seems to me like this is a good mod for a good stock motor, an OK mod for say a 10:1 rebuild... but really one should just bump up to max pump gas compression instead if rebuilding.

[Phantasm400ex]

will it be okay to run the sparks key with white brothers rev box on stock internals with rejetting and full exaust?

[2001400exrida]

yes that would be just fine. read the thread, they are talking about compression and the sparks key.

what compression is a 450r? i would say 110 isn't a problem for a 450r aren't they liek 11:1 compression? i mean it might be a litle overkill but not much, it would run just fine on it.

i know that the fuel argument has been around forever but i know pleny of people that run high octane in their lightly modded quads.

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by Phantasm400ex
will it be okay to run the sparks key with white brothers rev box on stock internals with rejetting and full exaust?
No.

If you read the rest of the thread, it say that its okay to run a sparks advance key in a 400ex as long as the compression is not higher than 10:1. So yes it will be okay to run a sparks key as long as your running a stock compression piston

Originally posted by tri5ron
No.

[2001400exrida]

i think triton was talking about running the sparks key with a rev box. which is just fine anyway.

ignore tritons post that said no and you will be just fining to run with that setup.

[MtnEX]

Well now wait a minute... I don't know what all the White Bros Rev Box does....

If it has a more aggressive timing curve and/or a much higher rev limit... well then it might not be safe to use them in conjunction.

Like I say though, I don't know what the White Bros piece does... just trying to make those who do know think about it and respond.

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by 2001400exrida
i think triton was talking about running the sparks key with a rev box. which is just fine anyway.

ignore tritons post that said no and you will be just fining to run with that setup. in reguards to the above comment,
the only advice I will respond with, is a quote from the famous writer Mark Twain...

"Never argue with a fool,
Onlookers may not be able to tell the difference".

[426kidz]

I hear good things but I also would never do it unless i was already in there...replacing clutch or something, Just somethin you do cuz your in there imo!!:)

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by 426kidz
I hear good things but I also would never do it unless i was already in there...replacing clutch or something, Just somethin you do cuz your in there imo!!:) Uhmmm,...
the clutch is on the OTHER side of the engine.

[426kidz]

Completly wayyyy to tired for this,lol 2 a.m here just off work.. but still no excuse,lol im sorry Im sayin just in general idk if its worth goin through the work for that....this will help much more than i will be able too... and save you some typing again,lol


http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=349499&highlight=sparks;) ;)

[426kidz]

and guys if he says NO he would know...he knows alot about this subject and much more....and has the proof!!!:D

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by 426kidz
Completly wayyyy to tired for this,lol 2 a.m here just off work.. but still no excuse,lol im sorry Im sayin just in general idk if its worth goin through the work for that....this will help much more than i will be able too... and save you some typing again,lol


http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=349499&highlight=sparks;) ;) Ok, umm yeah,.... but did you happen to notice that it was ME who WROTE that "How To" ?

[426kidz]

THAT is why i said save you some time re typing!!!......so yea i did notice,clearly:confused:

[426kidz]

I guess i could have said save you some time and help HIM more.

[tri5ron]

OK, gotcha,
wasn't sure just where you were comin' from.
my bad.

I'm a little "off" tonight myself, and brain is getting a little fuzzy. I'm kind of doped up, for an early morning surgery, and the pain pills are starting to kick in pretty good now. LOL !

didn't mean to pick on you,
were good.

[426kidz]

no big deal, But yeah is the reason it wouldnt be ok is cuz of the rev box he has on it??? i take your word concidering you do know more.

[bherriman]

Originally posted by tri5ron
"Never argue with a fool,
Onlookers may not be able to tell the difference".


This post is priceless.

[tri5ron]

426kidz,
Yes you are correct.

The reason you can NOT run both a revbox and the Sparks key, is because the key mechanically advances the ignition timing by 6 degrees.
No electronically altered timing curves, No rpm variables, No bull$#!T,...
just a straight up, positive, solid, 6 degree advance on the ignition timing. period.

This is about as much as a 400EX engine should EVER be advanced.

On a internally stock,... or,.... up to a 426 bore, and/or,... up to 10.5:1 compression ratio,...
The Sparks +6 key, is still a great performance enhancement, with noticeable improvement, in both throttle responce, and lower end torque. (hence, the "bang for your buck" value and gains).

cams, carbs, pipes, and intakes, do not matter or figure into THIS PART, of the engines proper functioning....
(they all come with their OWN seperate and different issues, LOL!).

Adding a revbox to that, which ALSO advances the ignition timing, would be a very bad choice, as well as would have a high possibility of causing serious mechanical problems.

The 400EX engine, produces over 90% of it's USEABLE power, well below the rev limits set in the stock OEM box. Therefor, a aftermarket box is relatively useless, and by all functional reasoning,... a waste of money.

in other words, a 400EX engine, simply can not effectively benefit from additional RPM's made available by the aftermarket revboxes.

With all that being said, it is also necessary to note,
That once a 400EX is modded OVER a 426 bore,... and/or,.... OVER 10.5:1 compression,....
then the advantages of the Sparks +6 key, become a mute point, and it should NOT be used in conjunction with the bigger bores and higher compressions.

(although you CAN push it a LITTLE more, if you so choose to do so,... and use one of Wheelies +3, or +4 keys).
He has had some good feedback, and satisfied members who can attest to his keys being used with the bigger bore kits, and higher compression set-ups.

PM him, or look up his thread on the keys, and he will be glad to help you if you are interested in going that route.

but again, NOT in conjunction, with a aftermarket revbox.

hope this helps to clear up some of the confusion.

[2001400exrida]

Originally posted by 426kidz
and guys if he says NO he would know...he knows alot about this subject and much more....and has the proof!!!:D

tri5on pleast check your stats dude.

My buddy is running an AMR rev box with a 6 degree sparks timing key and it runs perfect, nothing over heats or runs to hard. He has had this setup for 2 years now!

I'll take a picture of the quad today since we are going riding.

Tri5on do you have any personal experience with running a rev box and the sparks key? If not then you might want to check yourself seroiusly, i hate ill advice!

I'll show you guys my buddies setup after we ride today, but like i said he has a sparks key and the rev box, and it runs great!

[MidnightBlade]

Originally posted by DragonGunner
Ha....your right on the just enough octane, a little over is better than a little under....but my brother in law runs 113 race gas in his piped 450R, I've tryed telling him thats way over kill......it runs good, but would probably run better on 93.....can't seem to convice him. reread your sig and remind yourself of that every once in a while

[MidnightBlade]

Originally posted by 2001400exrida
tri5on pleast check your stats dude.

My buddy is running an AMR rev box with a 6 degree sparks timing key and it runs perfect, nothing over heats or runs to hard. He has had this setup for 2 years now!

I'll take a picture of the quad today since we are going riding.

Tri5on do you have any personal experience with running a rev box and the sparks key? If not then you might want to check yourself seroiusly, i hate ill advice!

I'll show you guys my buddies setup after we ride today, but like i said he has a sparks key and the rev box, and it runs great! if you do a +6 key and a +6 in a rev box, lets see here, thats +12 degrees of timing, my truck cant even take that much without blowing a fuel pump.
just waiting to see a new thread, "why my 400ex wont start/run properly" or "why is my engine knocking" and when you ask him what his mods were at the time of the problem he will say "i had a white bros rev box and +6 key" then we will all tell you are wrong AGAIN.
ok stepping off the soap box now, my point is 12 is WAY too much for a 400ex that is over 10% timing advance

oh, and my cousin did this with his lightly modded 400ex and had the same problems except he was running a dyna rev box with tunable power curve

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by 2001400exrida
tri5on pleast check your stats dude.

My buddy is running an AMR rev box with a 6 degree sparks timing key and it runs perfect, nothing over heats or runs to hard. He has had this setup for 2 years now!

I'll take a picture of the quad today since we are going riding.

Tri5on do you have any personal experience with running a rev box and the sparks key? If not then you might want to check yourself seroiusly, i hate ill advice!

I'll show you guys my buddies setup after we ride today, but like i said he has a sparks key and the rev box, and it runs great!
I always love a post that begins with "My buddies, this"... or " "I read in a magazine, that"....
All I can really tell you Dude,... is if it works for you, (or Your Buddy) then Great!,... rock on !!!

Im pretty sure that if you were to want to squeeze a little more, see just how far you can take it, and were to ask him real nicely,.... Wheelie might do a custom +20 degree key for you, and you'll be the next "Rocketeer", that we will all quest to imulate.
we will at least CERTAINLY, be interested in reading the results of your endeavors!

BTW, you might want to start pricing out the cost of a bent connecting rod, or a blown lower end, before you give that a shot.

JMHO.

[DragonGunner]

OOOOPPPPSSSS!!!!! I just read through this thread an came to the part about running a rev box with the key....I put the key in my sons all stock motor, k&n filter an white brothers exhaust....the rev box was on my race 400EX...well that engine came out an a KTM motor went in....somewhere along the line I didn't want the white brothers rev box just sitting an I didn't need it anymore so put it on the stock sparks ket motor....well it ran on it for about 2 yrs!!!! Ran perfect....no problems, last yr. I took the stock motor out an put my old race motor in....thought I would sell the stock motor, but decided just to keep in under the kitchen table for a future street legal trike project. I may have to call Sparks an tell them what I did an see if I was just lucky not hurting the motor or if this was ok???? I ran the crap out that motor that way in a 45 min. mud race for 2nd place, if it was going to hurt the engine it should of been then.....oooopppps?

[426kidz]

seems like alot of advancement and a whole lot of risk if you ask me...:huh :huh I would never risk my motor like that but thats just me!

[DragonGunner]

Originally posted by 426kidz
seems like alot of advancement and a whole lot of risk if you ask me...:huh :huh I would never risk my motor like that but thats just me!

I agree, but didn't realize this might of advanced it more...however it ran better with the rev. cdi...?.....So we have to find out why it didn't damage the motor. Did it in fact advance the timing even more? Do we know this for a fact? The rev. box does change the power curve, an the sparks key advance's this....but is the rev. box adding more on, or is the cdi programmed to only advance the power curve to a certain point an realizes the rpm an is going to stop its advancement at a certain point when reached....if the sparks key is reaching a certain point in the advancement the cdi might climb to that point but not add onto it because of its program.....not sure if anyone follows...its in my head but not sure i'm typing it right..lol..!!!
If the above is true then this would be why the engine was never damaged an ran so good,,,,,I would imagine with too much advancement, like any motor, it wouldn't even run right, it should of started hacking, an not run smooth.

[MtnEX]

I would have to guess the aftermarket CDI really isn't advancing the timing above stock... or not much if it is at all.

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by 2001400exrida
tri5on pleast check your stats dude.

Tri5on do you have any personal experience with running a rev box and the sparks key? If not then you might want to check yourself seroiusly, i hate ill advice!
Here's some discussions we've had in the past reguading the subject.
Take from it what you will, but for me,... I prefer to play it on the safe side. (both on my bike, as well as my responsibilities).

When we ride as a family, it is usually in the open desert, with no other available assistance, or help, from fellow riders in the same area.
We are often, many miles away from camp, and I'm usually riding with my wife who at best is a novice, my 9 y.o. daughter, and my 12 y.o. Special Needs son.
He has Down Syndrome, but he is learning to ride his own machine.
He has now recently advanced to, "solo riding",... something that is a HUGE accomplishment for him, and is something that we are very proud of him for. the mere fact that he is willing to ride, and wants to continue, is both a blessing, and hurdle, both at the same time.

It is solely, MY Responsibility, to insure that the entire family is safe, and their machines make it back to camp.

This means it is VITALLY Important, that MY quad maintains Total Reliability, and has the availability to tow anyone else back to home camp if ever needed, if there was a mechanical failure on any one of the other quads.

We are out there to have fun, and we don't need, nor can we afford, for a stupid choice to make it change, from a fun family ride, to a question of safety or possibly even a case of survival.

Read, learn, and make your own choices.

http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=393544&highlight=advances+timing+curve

http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=389064&perpage=10&highlight=advances timing curve&pagenumber=2

http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=355395&perpage=10&highlight=advances timing curve&pagenumber=1

That's about the best I can offer up, as advise for you guys.

Each of you will need to decide exactally what is important to you,...
your riding style and specific conditions,..
and what your level of confidence vs. reliability is worth.

You asked for opinions, and that's what I offered up, from my own experience as well as research.
Do with it what you will, and I hope it all works out well, in the choices you ultimately decide on.

Ride hard, Ride safe, and Keep the rubber side down.

-Ron

[fearlessfred]

Originally posted by DragonGunner
I agree, but didn't realize this might of advanced it more...however it ran better with the rev. cdi...?.....So we have to find out why it didn't damage the motor. Did it in fact advance the timing even more? Do we know this for a fact? The rev. box does change the power curve, an the sparks key advance's this....but is the rev. box adding more on, or is the cdi programmed to only advance the power curve to a certain point an realizes the rpm an is going to stop its advancement at a certain point when reached....if the sparks key is reaching a certain point in the advancement the cdi might climb to that point but not add onto it because of its program.....not sure if anyone follows...its in my head but not sure i'm typing it right..lol..!!!
If the above is true then this would be why the engine was never damaged an ran so good,,,,,I would imagine with too much advancement, like any motor, it wouldn't even run right, it should of started hacking, an not run smooth. i was wondering what fuel you ran,with the key and aftermarket cdi.was it high enough octane to counter any additional advance from the cdi.
As far as the cdi goes it does not know that know that there is a mechanical advance in the timing and would not compensate for the advance key.on a motor with a computer would be different,because it see other input besides just the ignition signal

[DragonGunner]

Originally posted by fearlessfred
i was wondering what fuel you ran,with the key and aftermarket cdi.was it high enough octane to counter any additional advance from the cdi.
As far as the cdi goes it does not know that know that there is a mechanical advance in the timing and would not compensate for the advance key.on a motor with a computer would be different,because it see other input besides just the ignition signal

This stock motor with the sparks usually ran on 92 octane, an usually with a splash of 100 octane aviation fuel. When I put it in to race it was on 100 octane. I was running the 100 octane all the time in my race motor so it was always around. The aviation fuel always seemed to run really clean an good. The CDI was a White Brothers.

I'm going to read some more of those threads posted above. I doubt I will run this again like this, If I ever put the motor on another project I'll just run the sparks, an stock cdi sense the rev cdi is back working with my race motor....

[DirtyBirdRacing]

Well bringing back a 8 month old Thred,

I GOT MY SPARKS KEY TODAY! ( well my firend that has my quad in PA got the key I had shipped to him, ) im planning on going in for a week next month when i have all the parts to get it up and running
My quad has been apart for close to a year now, and I kinda forget how it was rideing it,
My question - Should I put the quad back together with OUT the key in it, ride it around for a day, Then take it apart and put the key in it? or do you think that I will notice the diffrance no matter waht?

[grassman]

I had the key in before and after my rebuild. No problems what so ever. Runs like a raped ape!

[DirtyBirdRacing]

Im not fraid of it not running good, im just woundering if I will notice what the Key is doing. lol

[grassman]

You will notice that it revs quicker and makes it all around "snappier". I noticed it took some of my top end away. I made up for the difference with gearing. I think its a good mod for the $.

[jake"08"400]

I personally don't think the key was worth the time are money to put in. Sure it might help with accel some but not enough to go threw the trouble of putting one in. Just my 2 cents lol