Cylinder/head leaking help!!!!

[98300exduner]

Okay well earlier this week my cylinder bolt is stripped out of the head and will need to be helicoiled because it is starting to leak a little,but now there is a leak in the middle of the cylinder I'm not blowing any smoke but I'm not sure what caused it . Please help

[trailrider894]

Originally posted by 98300exduner
Okay well earlier this week my cylinder bolt is stripped out of the head and will need to be helicoiled because it is starting to leak a little,but now there is a leak in the middle of the cylinder I'm not blowing any smoke but I'm not sure what caused it . Please help

First off NEVER helicoil a Cylinder Stud... You'll have to install HD oversized studs from GTThunder. Can i get a pick of exactly where it is leaking?

[2001400exrida]

you can helicoil. just saw it done last weekend. unless you're running a 440, you will be fine with helicoil.

[jensenracing77]

are you talking about the head studs or the long bolts in the right side of the cam cover that goes down to the cylinder? i have seen head studs heli-coiled and hold but i would not do it myself. it would be best to go to the big studs. the long cam cover bolts i heli-coil all the time.

[trailrider894]

Originally posted by 2001400exrida
you can helicoil. just saw it done last weekend. unless you're running a 440, you will be fine with helicoil.

Yes, it can be one, anything is possible. You say it done last weekend, but in a month it will likely fail. Been there done that an had it fail on other ATV's... Trust me, its better to do the HD Oversized Studs and do it the right way! I know all the major builders who ACTUALLY KNOW what they are doing would never Heli-Coil ANYTHING!

[jensenracing77]

Originally posted by trailrider894
Yes, it can be one, anything is possible. You say it done last weekend, but in a month it will likely fail. Been there done that an had it fail on other ATV's... Trust me, its better to do the HD Oversized Studs and do it the right way! I know all the major builders who ACTUALLY KNOW what they are doing would never Heli-Coil ANYTHING!
carefull, many major engine builders will heli-coil many things but not the head studs. i know of an 11:1 400EX that has heli coils in the head studs and is ran hard for a couple years now. i was telling to not do it because it is not the right way to do it but it is still holding for them. even with it working for them i still wouldn't do it for the head studs. Honda really screwed up on that part of the 400 engine.

[trailrider894]

Originally posted by jensenracing77
carefull, many major engine builders will heli-coil many things but not the head studs. i know of an 11:1 400EX that has heli coils in the head studs and is ran hard for a couple years now. i was telling to not do it because it is not the right way to do it but it is still holding for them. even with it working for them i still wouldn't do it for the head studs. Honda really screwed up on that part of the 400 engine.


I apologize for that last part. I would heli-coil other parts that aren't responsible for anything major. I would never heli-coil a head stud.

[rubbersdown]

You should never use a standard heli-coil to repair a head stud, whether it "works" or not its just not the right way to do it.
Heli-coil makes kits to repair metric or standard head studs. The inserts are not standard heli-coil inserts they are made from a hardened stainless and actually work very well but even these should only be used if there is no other option. I used one a few years back on my fathers 55 gmc pickup that had a 450hp crate 350 in it and never had any problems and i beat the piss out of that poor motor. Problem is unless you own a shop or build/repair cars all the time the kits arent worth it because they run about $250 per kit. It would be cheaper and better in the long run to spend the $60 and buy the Gt thunder head studs. If you ever have the option of just running an over sized stud that is 100% the correct way to go.

[400man]

what about using large over-size bolts in place of the studs? this local shop I go to does this and has never had any problems with em. they use these big allen head bolts with big *** threads, probably the same size/pitch as the gt thunder studs, idk for sure, just guessing? they have to drill out the stud holes just a hair and re thread em. they claim that they are just as strong as the gt thunder studs...

[2001400exrida]

Originally posted by trailrider894
Yes, it can be one, anything is possible. You say it done last weekend, but in a month it will likely fail. Been there done that an had it fail on other ATV's... Trust me, its better to do the HD Oversized Studs and do it the right way! I know all the major builders who ACTUALLY KNOW what they are doing would never Heli-Coil ANYTHING!

it won't fail, he's done it several times there buddy. I'll let you know in about 6 months how it's holding up ok?

stock compression and bore, it will hold for a lifetime i garuntee you.

[trailrider894]

Originally posted by 2001400exrida
it won't fail, he's done it several times there buddy. I'll let you know in about 6 months how it's holding up ok?

stock compression and bore, it will hold for a lifetime i garuntee you.

Ha ha sounds good man. I just do everything right from the start, and never skimp. Last thing i want to happen is my lack of knowledge on building engines and use a heli-coil and get stranded in the sand 5 miles from my RV.

[CJM]

The problem with helicoils on this engine is the engine is mostly made of aluminum and its SOFT! The helicoil just doesnt grab nearly as well as it would on steel or other harder metals.

I had one of my exhaust studs break off in the head when I was removing the header once. I drilled it out and helicoiled it right and even loctited it in. It came out due to vibrations. I tried it again, again it came out. I said F it and tapped it for a piece of a bolt that I made into a stud-hasnt come out since.

Buddy of mine valve cover was all helicoiled when he bought it, every single one failed. Maybe they did it wrong, who knows.

I dont trust helicoils unless the application will endure no stress at all. The caliper on an old E250 van I fixed has been fine for a long time now, but its not a high stress application. My sparkplug that blew out I didnt helicoil, I used a special metal bushing insert.

For the 60 bucks I would do HD studs from GT Thunder.

[trailrider894]

Originally posted by CJM
The problem with helicoils on this engine is the engine is mostly made of aluminum and its SOFT! The helicoil just doesnt grab nearly as well as it would on steel or other harder metals.

I had one of my exhaust studs break off in the head when I was removing the header once. I drilled it out and helicoiled it right and even loctited it in. It came out due to vibrations. I tried it again, again it came out. I said F it and tapped it for a piece of a bolt that I made into a stud-hasnt come out since.

Buddy of mine valve cover was all helicoiled when he bought it, every single one failed. Maybe they did it wrong, who knows.

I dont trust helicoils unless the application will endure no stress at all. The caliper on an old E250 van I fixed has been fine for a long time now, but its not a high stress application. My sparkplug that blew out I didnt helicoil, I used a special metal bushing insert.

For the 60 bucks I would do HD studs from GT Thunder.

Thanks for once again agreeing with me on something. lol

x2

[rubbersdown]

Originally posted by 2001400exrida
it won't fail, he's done it several times there buddy. I'll let you know in about 6 months how it's holding up ok?

stock compression and bore, it will hold for a lifetime i garuntee you.

A lifetime guarantee! those are strong words in the motosport world lol.

It all comes down to the fact that people will do what hey want. Most helicoils will more then likely fail after a short time but some may last. Doesnt change the fact that its not the right way to do it. Even the cheap style helicoil kit is $25-35, if you have to buy that anyway might as well spend an extra $30 and buy the head studs and do it right the first time. Dont even know why this is turning into an argument when the obvious correct solution is only $30 more then the one that MIGHT work.

[2001400exrida]

i would say most will last and that some may fail if not done properly.

a proper helicoil on a stock comp will last if you do it right.

yeah a lifetime might have been stretching it, but you'll have to get in and replace rings or piston before those helicoils give.

if you do a good helicoil is will most likely hold. it's the half butt jobs that don't hold.

HD studs are what i have on my 416 and those babies won't budge! if you want to save some money just do what the other peple are saying and get the HD studs, they're very sturdy.

[CJM]

Just to add some more fuel to the fire..

Combined the soft metal of the EX's engine cases/components with the fact helicoils are rather soft themselves, add some vibrations and even the best ones fail. Look at my exhaust stud problem for example, I know I did it right and it failed 2x before I gave up and tapped it for a piece of bolt-no issues since.

Thats why I dont like them.

Also, why go thru all the trouble of doing a helicoil when in alot of applications you can just upsize the fastener and tap for that size? Works much better as you can now thread the entire thing if you want vs a helicoil thats 1/4 long. Just gotta make sure you use the correct drill bit and have a tap. Whole setup is cheaper than a helicoil as you can buy a tap at HD or Lowes or an entire set at Harbor Freight (believe it or not they have held up to my abuse btw).

My opinion...but BTDT have the t-shirt. Wanna helicoil it, go ahead-but if it fails then you got bigger issues.

Main reason people even have issues is they overtorque the bolts, those little 6mm bolts (8mm head) aint all that tough and neither is the engine metal.

[trailrider894]

Originally posted by CJM
Just to add some more fuel to the fire..

Combined the soft metal of the EX's engine cases/components with the fact helicoils are rather soft themselves, add some vibrations and even the best ones fail. Look at my exhaust stud problem for example, I know I did it right and it failed 2x before I gave up and tapped it for a piece of bolt-no issues since.

Thats why I dont like them.

Also, why go thru all the trouble of doing a helicoil when in alot of applications you can just upsize the fastener and tap for that size? Works much better as you can now thread the entire thing if you want vs a helicoil thats 1/4 long. Just gotta make sure you use the correct drill bit and have a tap. Whole setup is cheaper than a helicoil as you can buy a tap at HD or Lowes or an entire set at Harbor Freight (believe it or not they have held up to my abuse btw).

My opinion...but BTDT have the t-shirt. Wanna helicoil it, go ahead-but if it fails then you got bigger issues.

Main reason people even have issues is they overtorque the bolts, those little 6mm bolts (8mm head) aint all that tough and neither is the engine metal.

x2 everything you said!! I have overtorqued the 8mm headed bolts myself!! I talked to my father, who is a 25yr ASE, and GM Master Tech. 10yr GM Mark of Excellence, mechanic, and he said that he would NEVER heli-coil a head stud. He said they use a sleeve that is threaded and they drill out and tap the hole and screw in this sleeve and then it expands into the threads. He says that it is stronger than the stock studs. He said it is a heli-coil on steroids, that actually holds.

[CJM]

Originally posted by trailrider894
x2 everything you said!! I have overtorqued the 8mm headed bolts myself!! I talked to my father, who is a 25yr ASE, and GM Master Tech. 10yr GM Mark of Excellence, mechanic, and he said that he would NEVER heli-coil a head stud. He said they use a sleeve that is threaded and they drill out and tap the hole and screw in this sleeve and then it expands into the threads. He says that it is stronger than the stock studs. He said it is a heli-coil on steroids, that actually holds.

Thats what I used to repair my blown out spark plug. It expands as you thread it into the head and you also tap it in securely with a special tool or punch.

[rubbersdown]

Originally posted by CJM
Just to add some more fuel to the fire..

Combined the soft metal of the EX's engine cases/components with the fact helicoils are rather soft themselves, add some vibrations and even the best ones fail. Look at my exhaust stud problem for example, I know I did it right and it failed 2x before I gave up and tapped it for a piece of bolt-no issues since.

Thats why I dont like them.

Also, why go thru all the trouble of doing a helicoil when in alot of applications you can just upsize the fastener and tap for that size? Works much better as you can now thread the entire thing if you want vs a helicoil thats 1/4 long. Just gotta make sure you use the correct drill bit and have a tap. Whole setup is cheaper than a helicoil as you can buy a tap at HD or Lowes or an entire set at Harbor Freight (believe it or not they have held up to my abuse btw).

My opinion...but BTDT have the t-shirt. Wanna helicoil it, go ahead-but if it fails then you got bigger issues.

Main reason people even have issues is they overtorque the bolts, those little 6mm bolts (8mm head) aint all that tough and neither is the engine metal.

Agreed, there is no point what so ever in using any type of heli-coil if re-taping and using a larger head stud is an option. That goes for any application be it atv, motorcycle, drag car or lawnmower.

[jensenracing77]

WOW!
1 the Heli-coil is MUCH harder than the aluminum
2 a properly done heli-coil is much stronger than the original threaded hole in aluminum
3 the reason a heli-coil is not a good idea for the head studs are the fact that the heli-coil is to short.
4 the heli-coil that the friend of mine done in the head stud hole with 11:1 and is holding, he put one in all the way down and a second one on top of that to make the thread surface longer. i would just go with the head studs but i have seen it work with Heli-coils.
5 i have used 100s of heli-coils and never had one fail. i have even used them in ATC70 spark plug holes and never had a problem.
6 i even have a set of heli-coils in my aluminum bell housing on a 442 4 speed car. where the 4 speed bolts to the bell housing. the engine has 500ft lb of torque and they have ben there since 1991.

[rubbersdown]

Originally posted by jensenracing77
WOW!
1 the Heli-coil is MUCH harder than the aluminum
2 a properly done heli-coil is much stronger than the original threaded hole in aluminum
3 the reason a heli-coil is not a good idea for the head studs are the fact that the heli-coil is to short.
4 the heli-coil that the friend of mine done in the head stud hole with 11:1 and is holding, he put one in all the way down and a second one on top of that to make the thread surface longer. i would just go with the head studs but i have seen it work with Heli-coils.
5 i have used 100s of heli-coils and never had one fail. i have even used them in ATC70 spark plug holes and never had a problem.
6 i even have a set of heli-coils in my aluminum bell housing on a 442 4 speed car. where the 4 speed bolts to the bell housing. the engine has 500ft lb of torque and they have ben there since 1991.

I too have never had a heli coil fail but I feel that if larger head studs are a possibility that that should be the rout to go....on a side note, what year 442 you have? I am a HUGE 442 fan, I have been keeping my eye out for what seems like FOREVER for a 64' hard top coup project, but being as there were only about 2,300 of those made that year there pretty hard to find. I have only ever found 2, 1 was trashed and 1 was to nice for a project....someday lol

[CJM]

Im happy the helicoils worked for ya Jensen, your the minority imho tho-most I know have failed.

[trailrider894]

Originally posted by CJM
Im happy the helicoils worked for ya Jensen, your the minority imho tho-most I know have failed.


x2

[jensenracing77]

Originally posted by rubbersdown
I too have never had a heli coil fail but I feel that if larger head studs are a possibility that that should be the rout to go....on a side note, what year 442 you have? I am a HUGE 442 fan, I have been keeping my eye out for what seems like FOREVER for a 64' hard top coup project, but being as there were only about 2,300 of those made that year there pretty hard to find. I have only ever found 2, 1 was trashed and 1 was to nice for a project....someday lol
to tell you the truth my car is not a 442 but a 1970 Rallye 350, but most people don't know what a Rallye 350 is. it is easier to say 442 than to explain it. it has the original engine in it now so it don't have 500 torque any more. but it is still the same 4 speed and bell housing. it is going to be hard to find a 64 442. would be easier to find a 65 but not much. i just bought and sold a 67 442 4 speed car that was borderline parts car or restorable car. it will wind up restored because it was all original and documented.

[2001400exrida]

Originally posted by trailrider894
x2

you keep x2'ing it like you're in love with CJM or something.

CJM whoever is doing the helicoils must not have a clue what they are doing because majority should definetly not fail. and those people that i know that have helicoils that are holding just fine are not a minority.

if done right majority should hold just as they are designed!

trailrider how many times are you going to reference your father or whoever that is a 249908 year GM mechanic? big deal, i'll tell him straight to his face that i've seen several helicoils hold strong just as they are designed!

[AtvKid4Eva]

can someone please ban 2001400exrida already?? ever thread i read he is in there with pointless posts and its pretty annoying. for example ^^. he is always bashing someone and it ruins the entire thread.

[2001400exrida]

^^^another pointless post.

i've been involved in this thread since the beginning maybe you need to check your stats atvboy.

CJM said NEVER helicoil the head studs. I said it's just fine if you do it right.

there's not much more to it there kiddo, there's gonna have to be room for the both of us on this forum so i suggest you learn to live with my experiences and opinions.

[trailrider894]

Originally posted by 2001400exrida
^^^another pointless post.

i've been involved in this thread since the beginning maybe you need to check your stats atvboy.

CJM said NEVER helicoil the head studs. I said it's just fine if you do it right.

there's not much more to it there kiddo, there's gonna have to be room for the both of us on this forum so i suggest you learn to live with my experiences and opinions.

Hey man... i am telling you nobody wants to listen to some that is gonna be pushy. I just give m .02. CJM has thousands more posts than you... respect is to be earned around here and being a smart@$$ isn't getting anybody anywhere. If heli-coils work for then thats fine, i'll never use em and neither will CJM. and BTW i don't " love " CJM we just agree on a-lot of things. and I only refer to my father because i look up to him and respect him and his knowledge, he taught me most all the things i know about engines so i consult him when i have questions about things. There is nothing wrong with that. If you wanna make room for both of you and CJM then i suggest you earn the space like everyother member and not FORCE yourself onto it. Stop Power-Tripping. Again i am anti-heli-coil just out of opinion, i don't have much experience with them except on cars and they all pulled out. If you have had them work then great for you.

[2001400exrida]

nobody HAS to listen to me.

I'm giving my input. it's just like the jetting thread. when i see a post that i don't agree with.

I reply back with personal experience. majority of the helicoils i have seen or used have held very well for me.

Somebody posted and said that majority won't last or hold. well, i disagree....and i gave my 2 cents.

take it how you will but don't all in a tissy when you don't agree.

[trailrider894]

Originally posted by 2001400exrida
nobody HAS to listen to me.

I'm giving my input. it's just like the jetting thread. when i see a post that i don't agree with.

I reply back with personal experience. majority of the helicoils i have seen or used have held very well for me.

Somebody posted and said that majority won't last or hold. well, i disagree....and i gave my 2 cents.

take it how you will but don't all in a tissy when you don't agree.

Hey, i'll work on that " tissy?" thing i apparently have. But you got the same problem too so it'll be a joint thing...

[jensenracing77]

the problem is that most posts are about what someone done or found or know someone who. the only way to not have a difference in opinion is to give facts to back something up. not just because i seen this or that. like global warming, just because there is a consensus about it don't mean it is real.

just like my, no 11:1 on pump gas thing. i can't give facts here to back it up other than i said so. no one here knows my experience. that make my posts just as correct (or incorrect) as the next guy saying it is ok. all this makes for someone leaving here as confused as they were when they came looking for answers. also why i never got involved here for so long. i am on some 3 wheeler sites and the knowledge there is incredible and very accurate.

[2001400exrida]

i agree 100%. that's why when i see something that's not the same as my situation. I feel free to share my personal knowledge on the subject that way they don't take 1 persons word for it, because alot of times people are just relaying their knowledge from what they read on here or somewhere else.

if you've seen it in real life you can share that experience.

i've seen several helicoils on the head studs, i've seen them on tractors, race cars, go karts, they've been around for awhile and i think it does a good job, now if i see one fail i'll be sure to let you guys know!

[CJM]

The only thing I can factually ground is the 3 different helicoils I tried to use to hold a exhaust stud in. They all failed and I loctited them and I know I did it right. What I can say is the metal of these engines is rather softer than I would like them to be.

Only other I can say is Ive been a gearhead for many years and over that time Ive learned what has worked/not worked for me. Others might have had better luck with certain fixes that I didnt.

Bottom line:

Do what you want, but dont come crying if it fails :blah:

[jensenracing77]

don't use lock tight on a heli-coil. the lock tight will be on the bolt also when you screw it into the heli-coil. then when you take the bolt out you risk the helicoil coming out of the hole and not the bolt coming out of the helicoil. loc tight will not cure well between the heli coil and hole till the bolt is in place. then the loc tight has cured on the bolt also.

[CJM]

FWIW I loctited it the 3rd time cause it wasnt holding.

Even so Im just not a fan of of helicoils on these engines.

[400man]

just buy a new cylinder or head...:o

[CJM]

Originally posted by 400man
just buy a new cylinder or head...:o

Why would you want to do that when all you need is a gasket and a repair for less than 100 bucks including shipping?

A new cylinder head from honda is $400+ and a cylinder itself is $300! Even used they arent less than 150-250+ bucks on ebay and then you dont know what your getting.

Or did I miss your sarcasm (if thats what your intending)?

[400man]

Originally posted by CJM

Or did I miss your sarcasm (if thats what your intending)?

yes......I guess you couldnt smell it...:rolleyes:

[CJM]

Originally posted by 400man
yes......I guess you couldnt smell it...:rolleyes:

Long day :p

[2001400exrida]

Originally posted by CJM
FWIW I loctited it the 3rd time cause it wasnt holding.

Even so Im just not a fan of of helicoils on these engines.

you said you loctited all of them. are you sure it didn't fail because you were trying to remove the bolt later on and found that it didn't hold after you tried to remove it with loctite?

u shouldn't need to loctite if you've got the bolt in the helicoil. the bolt isn't gonna move it'll be the helicoil that moves if you didn't do it proper.

the point is, you can hold your studs with a helicoil, i would not advise against it to anybody, if you do it right it WILL hold 9 times out of 10. i'm amazed that you say the majority of your helicoils don't hold.

you're doing something wrong.

[CJM]

I never said I loctited all of them, I just said I loctited them. The first 2 I didnt-3rd one I did. I also WAITED for it to dry before I even put a stud in there the last time. I gave up, tapped and threaded the hole to the next size up and no more issues.

You have to look at it like this: When you have a threaded blind hole the ENTIRE hole is usually threaded, a helicoil is only threaded for maybe a 1/4 or so-much less holding capacity than a fully threaded hole.

Hey, if they work for you thats fine, I dont trust them on soft metals or much else.

[2001400exrida]

Originally posted by CJM
The only thing I can factually ground is the 3 different helicoils I tried to use to hold a exhaust stud in. They all failed and I loctited them and I know I did it right. :blah:

sounds like you loctited more than one? or am i just reading that wrong? you loctited only the 3rd one?

[CJM]

Originally posted by 2001400exrida
sounds like you loctited more than one? or am i just reading that wrong? you loctited only the 3rd one?

I loctited the last one, thats it. Hope that clears up the confusion.