the best spindle and caliper combo for the buck

[gixxerbob]

So i have been thinking about doing some nice brakes for my R but unsure if the mods are worth the money

I have many sets of R front calipers/spindles.hubs of all years and a set of 400ex spindles and calipers. I was thinking about selling off all the parts and going to 04-05 450r spindle,hub,caliper,rotor and although the original cost for the swap isn't so bad its hard to find replacement parts and the cost adds up.



Options:

1) stock 250r parts w/ rebuild calipers ......most people already have these parts but they are going on 24 years old and not going to get easier to find rebuild parts for

2)i could use 400ex spindles,250r calipers and Baldwin motorsport adapter brackets.... but the brackets go for 140$ used or 200$ new and you might as well go complete 450r front end at that point, 400ex spindles are cheap and light weight but the brackets are overpriced in my opinion

3)400ex spindles and calipers...the calipers are no where superior to 250r parts so i didnt even consider them

4)450r spindle,hub,calipers...pricey but all new and every part is available new from service honda

5)400ex spindles, 450r calipers, and custom brackets... the spindles are easy to find used and cheap while they dont seem too diferent from the sought after 04-05 450r setup, the calipers brackets would be pricey but thats a one time purchase, the calipers are cheap on ebay and often include a 450r master cylinder.

I can assume that the 250r cast iron spindles are more durable than the aluminum spindles but maybe its worth the weight loss to go to Al. (In my 240sx i went from cast spindles to aluminum 300zx spindles to drop 14lbs overall of unsprung weight resulting in better traction and still more durable than i will ever need)

are the 450r spindles that much better, performance wise, than the 250r?
Why are the conversion brackets so expensive? can i but them cheaper and maybe for a 450r caliper to 400ex spindle?


Some interesting videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeWuU3AG0yU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG4QtQBPrck&feature=related

what are you using and how do you like it? has finding OEM REPACEMENT parts become a problem?

[atvmxr]

for awhile, I thought that the 04-05 450r spindles were the hot setup. but troybilt did some modeling and protyping and i thought his conclusion was that the 04-05 are not any improvement in handling, bumpsteer, etc. and may even be worse when used with 250r stem.
it is nice to be able to get some relatively new calipers for sure though.


as far as brackets, PUMA seems to be pretty damn handy making stuff, perhaps he could make some brackets at a better price?

one options I didnt see you list was 450r calipers on 250r spindles. is that possible?

[250Renvy]

The best setup you can possibly go for is honestly the 250R setup. Spend the money to rebuild your brakes. They are the best design and functionality.

400ex spindles and hubs are great, but then you need the caliper adapters to get the better 250R brakes. Or you lose on the braking power.
When I had 400ex brakes I found them lacking, but some people don't notice the difference.

450R spindles/hubs/brakes are expensive because the better ones are the 04/05 setup and they don't work quite as good as a 250R setup because it's not designed for that. People have had problems with camber/caster.

I have an 06 setup and it's terrible on a 250R compared to 250R stuff.

[gixxerbob]

i actually talked to troybuilt and he said that he wanted to try and make something to adapt the 450 calipers to the 250r spindles.

Whats the better year 250r soindles and hubs? 86-87 or 88-89?

[fearlessfred]

Originally posted by 250Renvy
The best setup you can possibly go for is honestly the 250R setup. Spend the money to rebuild your brakes. They are the best design and functionality.

400ex spindles and hubs are great, but then you need the caliper adapters to get the better 250R brakes. Or you lose on the braking power.
When I had 400ex brakes I found them lacking, but some people don't notice the difference.

450R spindles/hubs/brakes are expensive because the better ones are the 04/05 setup and they don't work quite as good as a 250R setup because it's not designed for that. People have had problems with camber/caster.

I have an 06 setup and it's terrible on a 250R compared to 250R stuff. x2

[troybilt]

250renvy is spot on!!

Yea I've measured the 04/05 and the 06+ 450r hubs and spindles I've had several sets of both, and I still have a full set of 04/05 spindles, hubs and brakes to use on something.

The 04/05 is not superior to the 250r if anything its about the same as far as scrub radius, i.e. dimensions etc... basically the offset of the spindles sticks out 10mm farther on the 450r and the hub is sunk in 10mm to make up the difference, otherwise they are virtually the same dimensions as the 250r.

I don't know why they changed in 06 but they went backwards as far as design, way more push, I've got first hand experience with both on my 450r... I read they tried to improve the cornering bite with 06+ design, but in reality they created more problems than they fixed...

The only real advantage is saving 1/2 lb or so in weight vs. the cast steel design and the overal "bling" factor.... Keep in mind I'm only refering to the 88/89 spindles as those are the sets I've used and probably not worth the 200+ to switch to 450r... 250r brakes are great... the 450r's might be slightly better but with the lighter 250r probably not necessary, ...unless of course the rebuild cost/ease has you concerned.

400EX I'm not familiar with those yet. By the looks of them they are similar to the 04/05 450r's if I remember right.

Best design I've seen so far is the KTM SX spindle, hub and brake setup, but that is big bucks to swap new, neighborhood of $2k plus... I'd also like to investigate the LTR setup since that seems to be the flavor of the month right now.

This is just my opinion, someone else might think the 06+ is the best thing since sliced bread. But the general consensus is the 04/05's are better and they are similar in design to the 88/89's.

Also like mentioned before, with the 450r's you don't quite have the same camber adjustment as you do with 250r spindles.

[sameltoe]

Just throwing this out their...but yfz450 calipers bolt right on to 400ex spindles...and thier dual piston.

[troybilt]

Originally posted by atvmxr
...may even be worse when used with 250r stem.
it is nice to be able to get some relatively new calipers for sure though

That's a good point I didn't even mention is the ackerman of the steering geometry... that comes into play as well.

Is interesting how close the 450r front brakes are to just bolt right up as they are. I've tried on my protrax, if you line up one of the holes the other is about 2-3mm off.... even the offset to the rotor seems to be correct or at least pretty close. fwiw...

[fastredrider44]

06 up 450 spindles, hubs, calipers seem to work just fine on fully adjustable a arms, and can usually be picked up for a decent price since most 450 guys are looking for 04-05.

[fearlessfred]

Originally posted by troybilt
That's a good point I didn't even mention is the ackerman of the steering geometry... that comes into play as well.

Is interesting how close the 450r front brakes are to just bolt right up as they are. I've tried on my protrax, if you line up one of the holes the other is about 2-3mm off.... even the offset to the rotor seems to be correct or at least pretty close. fwiw... i have often wondered if the different quads have modifyed ackerman. have you ever looked into this troybilt

[All250R]

Originally posted by troybilt
That's a good point I didn't even mention is the ackerman of the steering geometry... that comes into play as well.
..
I've unofficially decided I like the ackermann setup in the 250R spindles. It's nice in tight, lower speed cornering is my impression. I want to say it makes the chassis that much more nimble in those situations at least.

[troybilt]

Originally posted by fearlessfred
i have often wondered if the different quads have modifyed ackerman. have you ever looked into this troybilt

I haven't really looked into it much. I know there is several theories out there. Lately, there seems to be a lot of favorable discussion on a less ackermann setup which (I assume) on a heavier 4 stroke helps the front end bite better with more weight on the outside tire... I could see this but I don't have any first hand knowledge and I'm still a student of the suspension geometry stuff...

In my opinion, everyone is still trying to get their new fangled bikes to turn and handle like a 250r for the most part. Hmm... wierd.. :D

[troybilt]

Originally posted by sameltoe
Just throwing this out their...but yfz450 calipers bolt right on to 400ex spindles...and thier dual piston.

Excellent, you should post that in the cross-compatibility thread...

[Rich250RRacer]

Originally posted by 250Renvy
450R spindles/hubs/brakes are expensive because the better ones are the 04/05 setup and they don't work quite as good as a 250R setup because it's not designed for that. People have had problems with camber/caster.

Major camber problems here, even with fully adjustable Lonestar arms. :mad:

[troybilt]

Originally posted by Rich250RRacer
Major camber problems here, even with fully adjustable Lonestar arms. :mad:

You're the one I remember reading about that said something to the effect you couldn't get the camber adjusted more than a few degrees, 1 or 2 I think before you ran out of adjustment.... I was wondering if one went with a one inch narrower top aarm... if it would work.. not worth the cost in my opinion... But if you were buying all new, if you could buy +3 lowers and +2 uppers if you'd have enough adjustment. food for thought.

[gixxerbob]

what is considered the more desireable year 250r hubs and spindles? 86-87 or 88-89?

[troybilt]

89 for me.

[deathman53]

88 or 89, both nearly the same, except for one being tapered shaft(89). Hubs fit both, as well as 400ex and 06+ 450r. Difference is the NOT using the tapered center collar on 88 250r spindle.

[gixxerbob]

so now im torn between putting fresh bearings in my 89 hubs and rebuilding the 250r calipers and powdercoating spindle, hubs, and calieprs or going with my 400ex spindle and buying a set of yfz calipers. 400ex spindles and yamaha calipers seems like the cheapest/best upgrade towards easy to find replacement parts and cheap at that. I would have to imagine that the yfz calipers are amazing since they are on the top of the line yamaha race quad and dual piston like the trx450r.

How does the 400ex spindle perform compared tot he 250r? not too much information was mentioned about this.

hmmmm decisions decisions....

[matt250r21]

Back in the day the hot setup was 400EX spindles, 250R calipers and caliper adapters made by either Walsh or Baldwin. 89 250R and 400EX hubs are almost the same, only real difference is the rotor bolts are 8mm on 400EX hubs. Properly working 250R calipers are as good as anything out there today including YFZ or TRX450R calipers.

[fastredrider44]

I always thought the 400 Spindles and 06 up 450 spindle's geometry was nearly the same. Also, hubs are interchangable between the two. A friend of mine has 06 spindles/hubs on his Laeger bike (along with rear brakes) and I have put 06 up spindles on a 400 because 400 front brakes suck.

Biggest advantage we saw to using the 450 components was the ease of getting replacement parts. It's not a big deal to rebuild the 250 brakes, but 450 parts are cheaper and easier to find.

[deathman53]

most of the parts to rebuild the 450r and 250r calipers are the same parts, including the rear calper. I don't see how 450r parts are cheaper and easier to get, if they are the same parts. Caliper body and brackets are easily different.

[fastredrider44]

True, but when you always have 450 stuff laying around to work with, it beats hunting 250 parts.:p

[Rich250RRacer]

Originally posted by deathman53
most of the parts to rebuild the 450r and 250r calipers are the same parts, including the rear calper. I don't see how 450r parts are cheaper and easier to get, if they are the same parts. Caliper body and brackets are easily different.

Big difference in price when I did mine, but this was back in '05. 450R stuff was cheap, mainly because the 04-05's were built here. I think I still have the receipts for my parts somewhere, and I know the calipers were under $40 a piece with my discount, and that was 12% over dealer cost.

[reconracer64]

just wondering if u can use 400ex hubs on 250r spindles

[SilverLake250R]

You can on '89 spindles, not the earlier 86-87 spindles though. Check out the compatibility chart, it should be on there.

[C41Xracer]

I have 400ex spindles with yfz450 brakes on my hybrid, ive compared some 86 hubs and spindles to them and cant see any difference. Im just throwing this out there but I do have baldwin adapters for the R brakes on 400 spindles and dont need them. I have working front brakes and braided lines too

[mxduner]

awesome read here guys. Thanks for all the input and knowledge.

I put the 400ex complete front end on. Very little ride time, but bump steer was improved by having the flatter profile in the tie rods. brakes sucked tho.

my route will be either adapters and my 88 calipers, with the ex spindle and hubs, or the yfz brakes... if that ends up the flavor of the month:D

[mxduner]

Originally posted by C41Xracer
I have 400ex spindles with yfz450 brakes on my hybrid, ive compared some 86 hubs and spindles to them and cant see any difference. Im just throwing this out there but I do have baldwin adapters for the R brakes on 400 spindles and dont need them. I have working front brakes and braided lines too its how the outside tie rod ends mount up, on top vs. on the bottom

[gixxerbob]

im glad i made this thread, it has lots of valuable information.

I ended up going with the 400ex spindle, 400ex hub, fresh hub bearings,seals, and collars, 400ex master cyl, ss galfer lines, and the yfz450 calipers.

as expected the calipers were 50$ (cheap) and the 400ex parts are so readily available and also dirt cheap, plus the tie rod mount does not get in the way.

once i recieve my esr carb ring i will let you know how good the spindles feel and how hard the calipers stop my trx500r

[Motofool250r]

We are working with spindles in the shop right now.

We have a set of 1988, 1989, 400ex and 06+ 450

So far the 400ex is the winner in bump steer arena.

we are using i shock arms for the mock up that are adjustable

were going to do some more testing with the 450r setup versus the 1989 spindle.

fyi for people that don't know the yfz brakes have a steel bracket that is heavy compared to the other Honda options. and don't buy yfz brakes without the mount bracket its not available through Yamaha without the caliper but burgard does sell some.

[hondaREX]

I went with the YFZ450 calipers on the front of my 400EX. Easy plug and play mod. I have 400EX spindles and 400EX calipers on my 250R because they were cheap when i was building it. But my vote is the YFZ calipers. They are cheap and work great. Almost work too good. I find myself sliding alot because they lock up so well.