Production rule needs to go!

[K-Dub]

If ATV racing is going to survive the production rule needs to go! Down to only 13 pro riders at some events, we need qualifiers and full gates. The production rule did nothing but throw mud in the face of the company's that kept ATV racing alive for the 14 years the factories snubbed thier nose's at us ie- Duncan, Baldwin, Sparks, LRD, CT, ESR, Leagers, JP/LSR, Roll design, Walsh racing and more that Im not thinking of. Within a couple years of the factories coming back most of these companys race teams where gone, I know a few still have teams. They kept the racing going year after year with the King of quads and all the aftermarket parts for the 250R. Where are the factorys now? Seem to me they pretty much dumped us by the wayside once again when the enconomy went bad. Now I feel the AMA made a mistake when the WPSA went under, the AMA should have bought the WPSA's air time on ESPN2. And added the quad terrain challenge to thier progam. I believe this would have kept ATV racing in its up swing of popularity of 06 and 07 and kept the factories here longer with the tv shows. So the production rule in my opinion was put in place for two reasons
1. kill off the almighty 250R so the 450 four strokes wouldnt be shown up by the 2 strokes and Hybirds.
2. get the factorys back. It worked for awhile, we had all of the big 4 competting in the 450 pro class and even brought Can-Am in as a newbie to the game and pretty much the only one left. But for how long? If memory serves this is the first time the big 4 all competed in the same class. Suzuki didnt make an ATC and Yamaha didnt make a 250cc quad.

So now that the factories left has the production rule out lived its usefulness? And if we drop the production rule to allow 250Rs and Hybirds back into racing and adopt the EDT 306cc 2 stroke cc limit do you think the pro class would make a come back? Do you think the aftermarket companys would come back and pick up were they left off and bring thier race teams back? I believe allowing the 250R and Hybirds back to racing will put the money back in to the aftermarket companys hands so they can once again affoard race teams. And that inturn keeps our talent from turning to bikes or just quitting all together. The trend in bikes seems to be going back to the 2 strokes due to cheaper engine maintence and repair, could this happen with the 250R and the Banshee in the open class?
To get ATV racing moving forward again in my opinion we need a full gate at the nationals, a stadium series in the winter, and back on TV. Plus ad the Quad Terrain challenge, it was a bit hit with alot of people I know, due to the fact they could relate to the riders racing a machine like thiers on terrain they ride. Plus you could see most of the track unlike a GNCC. (not knocking GNCC)

What do you think?

[Pappy]

I do agree the rule should be done away with, but in all honesty, I do not believe it will help fill the gate in the MX series. It could allow a few GNCC racers to get on a chassis that doesnt have alot of issues (breakage/handling etc) and that could apply to MX, but again, I dont see it filling the gate.

[MX450]

http://www.walshrc.com/custom-quad-builds.html

[trompen542]

If you want to fill the pro gate, run the pro and pro-am production on different days, and let the pro-am riders try to qualify for the pro class race, there were a number of pro am riders that were faster all year then a number of the pros, Joel, Chase, and others would have made the pro races pretty much every time.. also change the pro sign up rules, not many riders can afford to run enough races to get the 150 points needed to move up. This has worked for the bikes for years, and we need to catch up, or get left behind. Also I am for the no production rule, it opens up the way for new technology, like the walsh yamaha.

[Sjorge450R]

I would love to see the production rule disappear. Imagine hearing all the 250r's flying through the woods during a GNCC again?

[RATPACK Z400]

As for the 250r showing up the 450 PLEASE the 450 has had the best lap times EVER on the same tracks the 250r ran they should just have there own class and maybe a mixed class just to mix it up and let the 250r vrs 450 battles begin !Let the pro,s decide on which quad they want to run in the mixed class ! then you would need to let 450,s have aftermarket frames(in mixed class) and the 250r to 310cc. think thats fare? I also would like to see V-twin rule gone too then you,ll see some monster 4-strokes! maybe even a unlimited(hybred class) 2 or 4 stroke single cylinder or V-twin class too.

[skyeryder]

K-DUB I'm with ya, but we all now that the Big 4 whether they are sponsoring us or not, they will still be in bed with the AMA

[SRH]

is it just me or did the talent pool seem stronger pre 06

the biggest season i remember is 05 and from 01-05 we had constant growth

i say do away with the production rule, its not going to affect the average joe who isnt going to drop 20k but the compeititve guys and pros can build something to last and the r and d walsh puts into handling is prob more than most manufactuers

[Sjorge450R]

Originally posted by SRH
is it just me or did the talent pool seem stronger pre 06

the biggest season i remember is 05 and from 01-05 we had constant growth

i say do away with the production rule, its not going to affect the average joe who isnt going to drop 20k but the compeititve guys and pros can build something to last and the r and d walsh puts into handling is prob more than most manufactuers

depends what side you look at . National MX, yes. I feel like ti was stronger pre 06. GNCC on the other hand....there are so many talented young pro riders now.

[rageatvsupermom]

Personally I don't care one way or the other about the production rule...I don't think it will help bring in riders to the Pro class. I do think the rule about 150 points to qualify to race the pro class is necessary. There are quite a few Pro-Am riders that have no business racing with the pros...there are even some A class riders that have no business racing with the Pro-Am. I think you should have been in the top 10 in the A class before moving up to the Pro-am. There are to many people who think they are a better rider than they really are. Nothing against anyone but I believe you should earn the move up. Just my opinion.

[trompen542]

there are a lot of racers, that can't get their pro license, because of the 150 points rule, I am sure some of the itp pros, neatv pros, canadian pros feel they are fast enough, and many of them are, they just don't have the money to travel the atva circuit. Thats why you have qualifing at the races, a lot of them will suprise you. You could have the top ten in points all ready qualified, and let the remaining ten spots be in the qualifiers. you would have full gates, and if they weren't fast enough they wouldn't qualify.

[rageatvsupermom]

I am sure there is something in the rules that will allow another pro from another association to race with our pro's. Who is this ITP, NEATV or Canadian Pro that does not already race the ATVA that is not allowed to race? Why would a ITP quadcross pro want to race with the ATVA? What is the incentive? It certianly is not the money....that is why they stay on the west coast, not worth it.
The Canadian's race the CMRC or the NEATV because the incentives there are just as good as the ATVA if not better.
So really not sure who you are referring to but I don't think the 150 point rule is what is keeping the pro gate small. I could be
wrong, but I doubt it.

MAMA manshack you are correct. there is a lot of goons/squids that race in classes they are not cut out for. the 150 rule is good and if you cant afford to run the full pro-am class what makes you think you can run the full Pro class. its a huge step and you cant be throwing guys in their that cant run that pace.

Yes they should get rid of the production rule but i think you would only see a few guys go back to hybrids. privateers have so many parts for what they ride now it would be a huge pain and a lot of money for them to switch to hybrids.

example... Greg Gee and Nick Denoble have been on hondas for along time now. (exception of gregs year with can-am) i know for a fact that those 2 guys have SOOOOO many spare parts and practice bikes that they would have a hard time switching brands esp to a hybrid. just not worth it. and hybrids are crazy expensive to build. so taking it out wont make the sport better. IMO

[quad2xtreme]

hybrid could just mean a nice chromoly frame instead of being forced to run the stock frame.

I would think this would allow a company like Lonestar or Walsh (and others who wanted to jump into this market) to increase revenues from selling more frames.

What is the rule now, engine year and frame year must match?

[01screamindemon]

My take on the Situation is this:A big part of the reason Pro gates wont be ever filled is because of how many different series there are for the Pros Quads to run, I.E. ITP, ATVA, NEATV etc. Then look at how many different series the Pro Bikes have. Ya the Pro bikes have to travel all across the U.S. but they all come together in one series, generating a much larger talent pool for one series, well 2 if i guess if you count sx and mx separate. All their efforts(whether it be factory support,aftermarket,fan base, etc) is much more focused and is not spread thin among like the Pro Quads between 3 or 4 different series/divisions/locations whatever you want to call it. Drop the Production rule, let the aftermarket back in the game, and lets get things rolling with growth and expansion in our sport. Heck it would even be worth a shot to run the Pro Quads with the Pro Bike series. Let people see what quads can do. If ATVA can fit 36 classes into a weekend, Im sure AMA could fit a Pro Quad class into there race weekend, and include them in the supercross series. Try it for a few select races even, see how it plays out. Anything to get things going. Okay done ranting.

[TWISTED]

The factories are the ones who pushed for the production rule, and with the exception of Can Am, where are the factories now???? Think about that......

[trompen542]

if there was no 150 points rule you could try to qualify for pro like you do in canada. mrs manshack, there is no cross over license for any of the pro classes from any of the other series to the ama. its a shame too, because with this economy I know some of the neatv riders would like to try to qualify for the close nationals,but because of the rule they can't. there are also some of the dade city fla. pros, that i am sure would also like to try, at some of the southern races, but can't because of the rules. this is just my opinion, and I am not looking to start anything, but if something doesn't change, the pro class will die,

[quad2xtreme]

yep, stealing the thread. leave individual examples out of it, we are tired of reading about it.

[rageatvsupermom]

Well, Mr. Trompen what I am saying is that I really don't think the 150 point rule is what is keeping the pro class small. I think it is a lack of money.....the factories have pulled out and the satellite teams are gone and that is what alot of the pros were counting on. The rest got tired of spending family money to race a series where there was no money. I think it is stupid to pay to the 20th place in the pro class....if you aren't in the top 10 heck even the top 5 you should not be getting money as an award. This goes back to promoting and sponsors. Lets just agree to disagree.

[norris19]

Did Mike Pilotte ever earn his 150 points in the AMA ATV MX series? I know for a fact that he ran the pro class at Unadilla this past year.

[rollie]

im honestly not sure if the NEATV pro's would run the national's if they had the chance, maybe a few of them but some of them are making just as much money here as they would there, with can-ams and stuff. And the ones not making money a few of them retired or quit and won't be comming back next year. I agree with the production rule i would just keep it, people have soo many spare parts now it will only hurt if they change the rules again costing people more money, i think allowing changing the frame to chromoly or whatever would be cool.

[TWISTED]

I think they should let the pros run whatever they choose to........

[K-Dub]

Originally posted by skyeryder
K-DUB I'm with ya, but we all now that the Big 4 whether they are sponsoring us or not, they will still be in bed with the AMA

I hear you. Thats something that really got me excited about the WPSA and how fast some of the factories jumped at TV coverage. The Ama really droped the ball when the WPSA went under. The AMA should have grab the ESPN airtime and found bigger sponsers for the series. The WPSA showed them it could be done. The WPSA just needed better managment from my understanding. The AMA is alot bigger than the WPSA ever was and could/should pull some money from the bike side to invest in the quads so they gain enough popularity to hold thier own. Maybe it just me but as I watch the WPSA races I taped vs the AMA races on VS the crowds looked larger at the WPSA races. Maybe Im just seeing things but I dont think. As far as the 150 point rule is concerned I think its a good thing to keep riders that arnt ready for the jump to the pro class from hrting them selfs or the established stars that there. But they need to grandfather pros from other series in, if they are running pro in another established pro series then they can handle the AMA pro class.

Why I think the dropping of the production rulle will help bring the entries back in the pro class is: that if the aftermarket compinies can start selling there wares again they will hopefully bring thier teams back. This creates more rides. A couple years ago I was talking to one of these company's and asked why they dropped thier race team. The answer was with the factories paying the riders more money than they could affoard to have a good rider. So if they couldnt compete there was no reason spending the money. From my understanding Creamer was only getting paid for a top 3 finish and had the bikes provided for him. So now if we get the production rule out and the aftermarket companys bussiness picks up again they can afford to have thier race teams again. That equals more sponsered rides, maybe not a paycheck but atleast the riders wont be paying for the parts out of pocket and to get the quad to the track. So this puts more riders on the gate. Also if the factories wanna play they are welcome, they ran works bikes for years in SX/MX, they could bring out works quads vs the aftermarkets. How cool would it be to see a works 450R vs a Duncan racing Roll Lobo chassis 306cc 2 stroke. Can Honda build a better frame than Roll, Leager, and Walsh? Honda has more money but I give the nod of experence to Roll, Leager, and Walsh. This sport survived for years with having to have an aftermarket chassis, even with the 450s you have to add swing arm and a arms with after market shocks and a gusset kit to the frame. As far as a Hybird for me that can mean a LTR450 engin in a Roll Lobo chassis. What do you think will handle better a 450 with a stock frame and after market a arm/ swin arm and shocks or a Roll design Lobo chassis no matter the engine?

[CorvetteZ06]

Originally posted by K-Dub
If ATV racing is going to survive the production rule needs to go! Down to only 13 pro riders at some events, we need qualifiers and full gates. The production rule did nothing but throw mud in the face of the company's that kept ATV racing alive for the 14 years the factories snubbed thier nose's at us ie- Duncan, Baldwin, Sparks, LRD, CT, ESR, Leagers, JP/LSR, Roll design, Walsh racing and more that Im not thinking of. Within a couple years of the factories coming back most of these companys race teams where gone, I know a few still have teams. They kept the racing going year after year with the King of quads and all the aftermarket parts for the 250R. Where are the factorys now? Seem to me they pretty much dumped us by the wayside once again when the enconomy went bad. Now I feel the AMA made a mistake when the WPSA went under, the AMA should have bought the WPSA's air time on ESPN2. And added the quad terrain challenge to thier progam. I believe this would have kept ATV racing in its up swing of popularity of 06 and 07 and kept the factories here longer with the tv shows. So the production rule in my opinion was put in place for two reasons
1. kill off the almighty 250R so the 450 four strokes wouldnt be shown up by the 2 strokes and Hybirds.
2. get the factorys back. It worked for awhile, we had all of the big 4 competting in the 450 pro class and even brought Can-Am in as a newbie to the game and pretty much the only one left. But for how long? If memory serves this is the first time the big 4 all competed in the same class. Suzuki didnt make an ATC and Yamaha didnt make a 250cc quad.

So now that the factories left has the production rule out lived its usefulness? And if we drop the production rule to allow 250Rs and Hybirds back into racing and adopt the EDT 306cc 2 stroke cc limit do you think the pro class would make a come back? Do you think the aftermarket companys would come back and pick up were they left off and bring thier race teams back? I believe allowing the 250R and Hybirds back to racing will put the money back in to the aftermarket companys hands so they can once again affoard race teams. And that inturn keeps our talent from turning to bikes or just quitting all together. The trend in bikes seems to be going back to the 2 strokes due to cheaper engine maintence and repair, could this happen with the 250R and the Banshee in the open class?
To get ATV racing moving forward again in my opinion we need a full gate at the nationals, a stadium series in the winter, and back on TV. Plus ad the Quad Terrain challenge, it was a bit hit with alot of people I know, due to the fact they could relate to the riders racing a machine like thiers on terrain they ride. Plus you could see most of the track unlike a GNCC. (not knocking GNCC)

What do you think?

excellent post, I agree 100%

[MX450]

production rule or not this sport needs EXPOSURE. Yes the aftermarket companies keep the sport going, and make some great products, but we are never going to be as big as the bikes without EXPOSURE. The only reason factories get involved is bc of money. They dont give 2 craps about racing, but when racing is big enough for them to make tons of money (ie. supercross) then they get involved.

The pro gates are geting smaller because the factory rides are leaving, and the factory rides are leaving bc only die hard fans, and family are at the races. When atvs can tour the country and fill a stadium thats 30 min away from millions of people, instead of 2 hours out in the boonies, then you will see factory rides and tons of guys fighting for them.

Stock frame, aftermarket frame, makes no differance if nobody is there to watch

[dinliracer17]

doesnt matter races are in the boonies. bikes race at half or if not more of the same tracks and they get crowds

[Scro]

Keep this thread on topic, and take the personal attacks to PM.

[RATPACK Z400]

Your right with Exposure ,this sport needs tv coverage ! I have never seen MX on tv just GNNC racing if they would only(speed channel) air it instead of 12hrs of BS nascar you would see some interest in sport .Most people dont even know that quads race MX! all they know is Dirtbikes,if that RETARDED RENECK speed channel would air some MX races people could see It and maybe get more interested, involved,For gods sakes they air Lawnmower racing more than ATVS.That BS ! AMA should talk to Speed channel and see about so air time they might be able to give us a 1/2 hr a week .By the way NASCAR SUCKS ! the younger generation is into rally,drifting nascar should have there own channel and let the public see other forms of racing besides Nascar!

[walker054]

atv mx races will all be aired on vs this year just like the GNCC races.

[FHKracingZ]

Im gonna throw in my opinion.

#1. What makes you think you can build a hybrid cheap? Also do you think aftermarket companies like walsh, laeger, or anybody are gonna pay good salaries for pro riders? No. They dont make enough money to do so.

#2. I say go away with the 150 point rule. I say knock it down to 75 so you weed out the real jokes and let them race. Pro bikes are lapping people on the 7-8 lap of pro races, does that mean they dont deserve to be on the track with them? No.

You guys act like they are gonna let some retards in the pro class which will never happen as long as AMA ATV Pro exist. Anybody that has dealt with harve knows how strict he can be and HE runs the show for the pro-am prod and pro's, nobody has head above him on any kind of call.

I say let the top 10 of pro-am try for the pro class. Tell me one Top 10 or even top 15 pro-am rider that is a serious danger to the pro riders. Heck most of the top 15 riders are running fast times than keith little ( no offence ) so whats the difference?

[laeger2fiddyr]

Originally posted by FHKracingZ
Im gonna throw in my opinion.

#1. What makes you think you can build a hybrid cheap? Also do you think aftermarket companies like walsh, laeger, or anybody are gonna pay good salaries for pro riders? No. They dont make enough money to do so.

#2. I say go away with the 150 point rule. I say knock it down to 75 so you weed out the real jokes and let them race. Pro bikes are lapping people on the 7-8 lap of pro races, does that mean they dont deserve to be on the track with them? No.

You guys act like they are gonna let some retards in the pro class which will never happen as long as AMA ATV Pro exist. Anybody that has dealt with harve knows how strict he can be and HE runs the show for the pro-am prod and pro's, nobody has head above him on any kind of call.

I say let the top 10 of pro-am try for the pro class. Tell me one Top 10 or even top 15 pro-am rider that is a serious danger to the pro riders. Heck most of the top 15 riders are running fast times than keith little ( no offence ) so whats the difference?


X2!!!

[K-Dub]

Originally posted by FHKracingZ
Im gonna throw in my opinion.
#1. What makes you think you can build a hybrid cheap? Also do you think aftermarket companies like walsh, laeger, or anybody are gonna pay good salaries for pro riders? No. They dont make enough money to do so.


I never said you could build a Hybird cheap. No I dont believe the aftermarkets companys can afford rider saleries, hence I stated earlier that one aftermarket company told me they couldnt compete with the factories offering saleries. So they dropped thier team. My point is Creamer didnt recieve a salery this past year, he got paid on top 3 finishs and his championship plus quads and haullage to the track. Since the factories are gone the aftermarket teams hopefully can pick back up and just offer rides and get the gate full again.

To me the ultimate ATV racing we can see is a stadium series Jan through may and a national series may through sept. Aired on TV (Speed or ESPN2) with outside sponsers like the Gieco powersports team in supercross or Joe Gibbs racing team. But the first step in this is to get the gate full once again and that dont happen without the aftermarket race teams now that the factories are leaving again like in the 90s. There are outside sponsers to go get if we have something to offer, right now 13 quads on a 20 quad gate isnt nothing to offer and not much tv coverage. Look at NASCAR and Verison, its now Sprint cup and Verison isnt allowed to have thier name on the car. Now how would the Verison quad racing team sound riding say LTR450s with 2 riders? In the NHRA its sponsered by Poweraid and no other energy drink is allowed to have thier name on a car, more potention outside sponsers? If only we had more to offer. Im biased but I would rather watch ATV SX/MX than bikes let alone car racing.

The first step in making this sport grow is a full gate, with out that the rest is a waste of time. To achieve this we have to get the aftermartet teams back.

Thanks Scro.

[FHKracingZ]

I totally agree Scro, I dont think the problem with making ATV racing mainstream has to do with the factories or aftermarkets. It has to do with the marketing/publicity side of it.

Motocross is a riders sport.

Supercross/Stadium type racing is a spectator sport.

First you must have spectators interested in trying it and getting started.

[rageatvsupermom]

For the sport to grow the promoters have to promote the races, that means advertising and bringing in sponsors. If it can be done for the bikes and GNCC then the Mx side can reap those rewards as well....the promoter just has to want to.

The 150 rule should stay....just because the Pro-am had as fast as lap times as some of the pros does not for one second mean they will beat the pro. Just because you have the fastest lap time does not mean you have won the race....many of the winners were not the fastest. I wish they would do away with the lap times because they really mean nothing unless you are qualifying.
More people waste energy worrying about lap times to do what is necessary......which is race.

[catch22blaster]

None of it really matters sport will never grow with the costs of everything. The world is out of control an crazy. What It comes down to Plain an simple is Money. Who ever has the biggest wallets will only survive an continue to race cuz they can afford to throw away 20g + for a race season. There are alot of talented local riders around the United states that are way faster then half the people that race nationals an can run with guys that race nationals. It comes down to money. The sport will never go anywhere when it takes so much to put a race program together. The average person cant do it. Whats the point to travel half way around the country to get a damn plack?? If you dnt race pro am or pro ya you get few hundred bucks every other weekend but still not enough. The winnings are a joke they need to pay out more money instead of puttin it in there pockets when it costs you a grand to get there an your headed home an then gotta deal with more maintance an spend more money. Theres no insentive quads are not on tv No big pay outs dnt attract crowds. Theres alot of people that dnt even no what quad racing even is. An they will never be where the bikes are at. Dirt bikes is where its always been at an always will be.. Ya I had a blast the 4 yrs I raced nationals an won 4 national championships. But If I knew it was going to lead to no where from the beggining when I had high hopes of goin pro someday an got sucked into this money pit like everybody else would I do it all over again knowing what I no now about it Hell no It was a great dream had fun but not worth it. Only a few selected riders survive it an make it pro every couple yrs. An as for the pro gate clearly proves that unless you got money to race pro or sponsorships the privateer pro will never survive. Ive seen alot of riders come an go. And Only the select few have made a living at it an thats that. IDC what anybody says to this post ive typed. Bash it tell me im an idiot whatever. Its all facts and its reality people.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Well, I guess I'll post something.
I was asked to come over here, but I dont think I have a part here because it is mostly about MX & I only deal with Extreme Dirt Track (TT) type of racing.

I can tell you I have contact with some high people that can make change.
I will agree, we need TV for our sport, just like other sports that do have it & have grown, but, what is going to happen to that TV coverage if Speed or Versis came on here & read Patricks post.
Somebody needs to tell him Nascar owns Speed TV.

After reading all these pages, best I can see it is all about the Pro classes & how much money they can make.
Do any of you Pros know where the money you DO get comes from ??.
Do you know, the more riders you have in a class wheather that rider can RIDE or NOT the more money that class pays out, have you missed that some where.
Am riders at the races, did you know if it wasnt for the AM riders showing up & paying to race, TRERE WOULDNT BE ANY MONEYS TO PAY THE PROS, did I make that clear enough that you could understand.

If you dont beleave it, lets seperate the Pros & Am riders, one weekend for the Pro riders to race & then let the Am rider run the next weekend, guess what, will be no more Pro events cause the track finely made a little money & wont have the money to pay out come the next Pro race.

Production rule needs to go, be done with it & open up to let who ever run what ever, just keep the cc rules per class.

In all types of outdoor racing, not including Extreme Dirt Track, all have lost riders, but EDT has grown 15 to 18%.

Pro riders, I know your big, but you need to stop & think for a minute.
Neil

[blaster99]

You have to make it worth it for someone to go out and race the pro class. No one will move up to pro until they dominate pro-am because there is nothing in it for them! Would you rather get top 3s in Pro-am or 15th in pro? I'm not saying the fast pro-am guys will do not so great next year, but I doubt they will do as good as everyone thinks.

Bottom line is money, and no one will run the pro class battling for 15th spot for very long unless they aren't spending any or that much money on it.

[mx8]

Originally posted by catch22blaster
None of it really matters sport will never grow with the costs of everything. The world is out of control an crazy. What It comes down to Plain an simple is Money. Who ever has the biggest wallets will only survive an continue to race cuz they can afford to throw away 20g + for a race season. There are alot of talented local riders around the United states that are way faster then half the people that race nationals an can run with guys that race nationals. It comes down to money. The sport will never go anywhere when it takes so much to put a race program together. The average person cant do it. Whats the point to travel half way around the country to get a damn plack?? If you dnt race pro am or pro ya you get few hundred bucks every other weekend but still not enough. The winnings are a joke they need to pay out more money instead of puttin it in there pockets when it costs you a grand to get there an your headed home an then gotta deal with more maintance an spend more money. Theres no insentive quads are not on tv No big pay outs dnt attract crowds. Theres alot of people that dnt even no what quad racing even is. An they will never be where the bikes are at. Dirt bikes is where its always been at an always will be.. Ya I had a blast the 4 yrs I raced nationals an won 4 national championships. But If I knew it was going to lead to no where from the beggining when I had high hopes of goin pro someday an got sucked into this money pit like everybody else would I do it all over again knowing what I no now about it Hell no It was a great dream had fun but not worth it. Only a few selected riders survive it an make it pro every couple yrs. An as for the pro gate clearly proves that unless you got money to race pro or sponsorships the privateer pro will never survive. Ive seen alot of riders come an go. And Only the select few have made a living at it an thats that. IDC what anybody says to this post ive typed. Bash it tell me im an idiot whatever. Its all facts and its reality people.



You could not have said it better. That is 100% true.

[FHKracingZ]

Lol cleigh the pros dont make there living off payout they make it from sponsors paying contingency or factories. The wpsa was a whole nother story, serious payout for those events.

[dinliracer17]

hey blaster99. i dunno about chase but joel wants it bad enough that he will be atleast top 5 maybe even top three!! cuz in this sport. its not about talent or skill its about heart and how bad you want it !!!!

[mx8]

WANT WHAT????? There is nothing to win in this sport.

[dinliracer17]

want what someone else cant achieve. victory!! where you stand alone on the podium!

[mx8]

Before long it's going to be real easy to stand alone on the podium. When your the only one left racing. Not trying to knock anyones dreams down. But sometimes you have to look at the big pic. If your friend is that good a mx, and still young, maybe now is a good time to get into something else that he might be able to earn some money at. And has a future in it.

[dinliracer17]

ur a clown buddy

[mx8]

I might be a clown. But at least Im not going to be a broke clown with a dead end dream, to be on top of a dead end sport. ;)

[catch22blaster]

Originally posted by mx8
I might be a clown. But at least Im not going to be a broke clown with a dead end dream, to be on top of a dead end sport. ;)

Exactly man ur right. Im a clown to but finally gettin out of debt from it haha

Jamen theres no goal to be achieved man its an endless money pit.
An its alot about talent an skills. Its easy to be super fast when you dnt have a job ride 24/7 dnt have to go to school an hav a wallet full of money lol. Every yr its the same ppl an its that way bcuz there the ppl that have the money to continue to do it. Or there chasing that dream like the rest of us did.

Think bout it in my time racing nationals for 4 yrs Ive only seen like 8 guys go pro outta 500 -600 some A an pro am riders. Like i said only select few survive an make it. Its facts man lol .

But im not downin anybody of living there dream either of trying to go pro though go for it an enjoy it. But in reality its very doubtful. its facts

[rageatvsupermom]

Originally posted by catch22blaster
Exactly man ur right. Im a clown to but finally gettin out of debt from it haha

Jamen theres no goal to be achieved man its an endless money pit.
An its alot about talent an skills. Its easy to be super fast when you dnt have a job ride 24/7 dnt have to go to school an hav a wallet full of money lol. Every yr its the same ppl an its that way bcuz there the ppl that have the money to continue to do it. Or there chasing that dream like the rest of us did.

Think bout it in my time racing nationals for 4 yrs Ive only seen like 8 guys go pro outta 500 -600 some A an pro am riders. Like i said only select few survive an make it. Its facts man lol .

But im not downin anybody of living there dream either of trying to go pro though go for it an enjoy it. But in reality its very doubtful. its facts

Nothing against you but with your logic, then everyone who palys football, basketball, baseball, runs track needs to quit. How many really make it to the pro's.......in reality there is no sport that quarantee's anyone to make a living. If anyone who does anysport with the logic that they are going to rely on it to make money is lost. That is why parents stress to get a college education so you will have something to fall back on. There is nothing wrong with the people who do have the money and do this for fun.....don't knock them. I am sorry you are so bitter that you got yourself in debt thinking there was a light at the end of the tunnel....but you can blame no one but yourself....I don't know of anyone who promotes to the amatures that they are going to make it to the pros and millions of dollars. It is a shame
that this has gotten off topic.

[mx8]

I never seen a 20,000 dollar football or a 15,000 dollar basketball. I think that what is trying to be said here is for all the money you put into racing. The payoff stinks. Just ask doug gust theres a reason one of the fastest men in racing is gone. But to each there own.

[K-Dub]

Thanks for adding to this Neil. This thread was to be about raising all forms of ATV racing to a higher level not just MX, but I geuss it went heavily biased that way. I also wanted Neil to add to this thread because of the changes he and others are making in the EDT series. As Neil stated it is on an up swing and rider turn out is up. I believe Neil has the production rule out of most of the EDT class's. Does the EDT recieve any TV coverage at all? I have not seen it if it does. To me it was better when we had a GNC champion as oppesed to 2 seperate championships and respect a GNC champion a little more than a EDT or MX champion because guys like Gary Denton had to be versatile enough to ride both fast. If we can get a stadium series would it be possible to race both mx and EDT on the same night? Didnt LL build thier TT track around the mx track? Give the fans double bang for thier buck.

I dont know maybe Im dumb for wanting to see a Geico powersports team vs a Verison team vs a Budwieser team etc etc. I forget the guys name but he raced SX in the early mid 90s and had Surf laundry detergent as a sponser that long ago, it was one of the first outside sponsers. But it takes a full entry field to start all of this. In the 90s there was pretty much a full field and its my understanding the riders rode for just bikes and parts, this is how its gonna have to be for awhile to get this moving upward. But one thing is for sure if we can get this built up enough to gain outside sponsers we have to be alot cheaper than NASCAR to field a team if we could get 1/4 of that exposure for a sponser.

I understand what your say about ATV racing being a dead end dream, but part of that has to be for the love of it. But this whole thread is about changing it from a dead end dream to a dream with a finish line. Im old enough to remember when you had to hunt long and hard to find a SX/MX bike race on tv and if you did it was usally the wee hours of the morning. Even in the 90s when SX was on tv on a weekly basis it was shown after midnight, and look where it is now, shown live a few races a year and in primetime and on CBS sunday afternoons. So dont tell me ATV racing cant do it also. The WPSA was on the right track. As already stated bigger payouts and on tv on saturday afternoons. Thats better than aftermidnight or on a channel not everyone gets.

[RATPACK Z400]

Bottom Line is you get MX on tv (speed/VRS channel ) for one season that season full gates sponcers/promoters get paid then riders .TV COVERAGE is all it takes thats whats missing! it isnt rules and points thats stopping it from growing .Its all EXPOSURE! then comes sponcers like Bud,verizon,etc sponcing teams thats what it takes but it never got the coverage it needed ,yami,suzuki,honda etc, should have 4-5 yrs ago put some of there money in coverage and this sport would have taken off IMO. the brands(suz,yami,etc) would have sold more quads and everybodys happy!instead they got big fancy trucks and trailers when who but the fans at track are gonna see these trucks and trailers like there on TV or something like the dirtbikes !waste of money for all that fancy crap could have used money on coverage!Thats where they f-up!

[RATPACK Z400]

First the AMA / manufactors NEEDS too get MX/freestyle in Gravity games/ X Games ect. that would be the key to getting this sport off the ground ! until then things will stay the same! I know if I was pro rider Id be knocking on all doors to get in Xgames/gravity games talk to there sponcers something! Id even go too games with quad and several other pro,s and challenge the dirtbike riders/sponcers of event,to let us compete, if i was pro rider like dustin,creamer etc. I wouldn,t care Id make some serious noise in parking lot calling them all out to race us! Ha Ha

[dinliracer17]

you see its your fault for being in debt and everyones fault for them being in debt. if ur in debt simply dont do it. dont be on here complaining how ur broke no one cares!!!!

i work all week to make it to all the races, and work hard because it funs and what i like to do. im in no way rich, and will never go into debt to do it. i barelly have time to ride, but i find time because i like to do it.

we all could be drinking it and outting it up noses. i barelly spend any money for my bikes. everyone thinks u need new bike and that bs. i redo all of mine as cheap as possible

if u just keep saying the sports dum and worthless get the hell off here because you arent helping it by doing that

[trompen542]

You know what is funny, every one says to make our sport bigger, the thing we need is tv coverage, but no one will let us on. mav tv covers the ice speedway atv racing, and sometimes its on 3 times during saturday afternoons. Why haven't the promoters, tried them? I know why, they are satisfied with our numbers, because we sheep will keep coming reguardless of weather we are on tv or not.

[Lasher]

On the TV issue...

There are two ways to get something on a cable channel, like ESPN or Speed.

1) You buy the air time slot from the network. You have film/edit/etc the show, ie....pay all the bills.

2) The network produces the show and puts it in a time slot. Here the network eats the production costs.

I can tell you right now, ESPN will NOT be producing motocross racing show, especially for quads. Just not enough money in it for them. WSPA brought the airtime from ESPN back then. ESPN did not film/produce anything for that air time.

Ad revenue is what will make or break a quad motocross show. You need to sell the commercial time and the ratings will dictate the price of an ad slot. Are their companies willing to pony up the dough for ads?

Overall, I wish the AMA would just put the Pro class on the same day as the bike races. Sorry, harsh words for some and completely my opinion. Run district regionals for ameteurs with a pro qualifier at the end...yes...just like bikes.

[trompen542]

I have been saying the same thing for years.

[quad2xtreme]

At some point, sports/activities just take off and grow. I really can't answer whether ATV racing got enough exposure or not but for some reason the general population doesn't take to quad racing. I have to admit I wouldn't invest my money into marketing ATV racing as I don't see any indication there is a direct return on investment for those who put up the bucks to promote ATV racing.

IMO ATV racing isn't as exciting to watch as the bikes. The real issue is most tracks aren't even close to being wide enough and having a long series of jumps in a row where a faster rider can't be blocked from passing. Even some alternative option lines might help alleviate this issue. Bikes have 4-5 good ruts in most turns and 3-4 can jump at a time. There is just so much more bar to bar racing going on with the bikes.

And let's not forget the whips and flat whips going on in bike racing. I flag for both and would far rather flag for bikes even though I am a quad guy. I am going to Atlanta for Supercross in 2011 and probably Vegas. I'd never go through the expense or effort to do that for a quad race.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Some one please enlighten me, is this thread about dirt bikes or atv's ??.
Neil

[quad2xtreme]

It's a pretty open discussion based on the very first post.

Ultimately he is looking to know what it would take to grow the ATV gate. You have to consider the competition to ATVs too. Right now, there are many but arena cross, supercross, and motocross are probably primary. Soccer is huge worldwide but doesn't do much in the US due to our own professional sports like football.

So what is your opinion for helping fill the gates?

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Originally posted by quad2xtreme [/i]
[B]It's a pretty open discussion based on the very first post.

Ultimately he is looking to know what it would take to grow the ATV gate. You have to consider the competition to ATVs too. Right now, there are many but arena cross, supercross, and motocross are probably primary. Soccer is huge worldwide but doesn't do much in the US due to our own professional sports like football.

So what is your opinion for helping fill the gates?


In ATVA EDT Racing, we have grown 15 to 18% & all others, dirt bike mx, atv mx, AMA flat track bike all declined.

My thoughts, what it will take to fill the gates, for EDT, it is make it more affordable for anybody wants to race & one way is to get away from these $5 to $8,000.00 dollar 4 stroke engine builds that will blow up & you end up throwing it all in the trash can.
How many of those builds can any one rider or team stand.
I cant even start to count, how many riders couldnt be at the next event just because they had to rebuild or replace an engine.
We are not Nascar where everything is brand new every time we hit the track.
Riders just cant keep spending like they are, it already cost to much just getting to the events.

I been doing this a long time, seen many come & go & that is what I'm seeing, right now.
Neil

[C41Xracer]

gate fees and entry fees are killing the sport too not to mention upkeep on your quad, fuel prices arent helping it either

[FHKracingZ]

CLEIGH nobody is making you spend 5k on a motor setup. Im sure in EDT just as in MX a better rider can make up for a slower motor. The difference between a 20hour motor and a 50hour motor is not that much, maybe 3-4 horse. A good rider, or a better gear setup can easily make that up.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by FHKracingZ
[B]CLEIGH nobody is making you spend 5k on a motor setup. Im sure in EDT just as in MX a better rider can make up for a slower motor. The difference between a 20hour motor and a 50hour motor is not that much, maybe 3-4 horse. A good rider, or a better gear setup can easily make that up.


Oh I'm not & never will, not on a dirt bike or atv engine.
It would surly be a sad day when a good engine builder has to spend $5000.00 to make a 2 stroke perform right.
Neil

[FHKracingZ]

I totally agree lol, and I feel bad for the idiot who is paying $5,000 for a pro level motor because somebody is making way to much money. You can make a current 450 a pro level motor for around $2,500 max. and thats paying retail for valve train parts through xcyldyne.

[RATPACK Z400]

Atvs definitly need more Exposure! 10rs ago i never seen a race quad only 4x4! and rode dirtbikes my whole life Im 40 ! I still say the games (xgames etc) is the best avenue for the sport, then more interest in atvs, then more sales,then packed gates. and Atv,s ARE just as exciting to watch as dirtbikes !

[SRH]

forget x games and stuff, you cant put bikes and quads in the same show, its boring, im a quad guy but id rather watch dirtbikes, they go faster, jump higher and farther and do crazier tricks

[hasbeenttduner]

k-dub
That was Jeff Glass.

[K-Dub]

Thank you. I knew his first name was Jeff but for the life of me couldnt remember his last name. This is a perfect example of what quads need to do, if I remember correctly Glass had no factory involment in his Surf team. Strait priviteer.

[400grl]

Ok...I'm gonna jump into this topic, because over the last couple of years I have learned some things.

Everyone talking about TV exposure is dead on. Most people can't afford to really take on the challenge of the Pro classes - the Pro's that are racing can barely afford it, unless they were loaded to begin with.

So....there needs to be some major sponsors coming into ATV racing. However, you won't get major sponsors without showing them that they will get EXPOSURE for spending their money on you. They don't want the gratification of helping a struggling racer along....that doesn't pay bills or sell product. They want to see a return on their investment. These days, when there are other, TELEVISED forms of motorsports to put their sponsor dollars into, why would they sponsor a sport that gets PITIFUL exposure, compared to the rest?

Somehow, either a major sponsor needs to step in and pay for some time slots on MavTV or Versus, and get these races some exposure - or....someone needs to convince a program that is already seeing some TV time to add ATVs to the package.

I also feel that the WPSA was the BEST step in the right direction for ATV racing - had that been able to continue, I think ATV racing would be in a much better place today.

The GNCC races still seem to attract a ton of entrants still - and I attribute that to the fact that it IS on TV. IT doesn't have to be much.....but for many companies, unless even a little TV time can be promised, they just can't release their advertising dollars. If I were to race GNCC's and I were looking for sponsors, you better believe the first thing I would put on my proposal was the TV package that series was running.

I don't race ATV's anymore......I am now racing short-course in the Lucas Oil Off Road Race Series. This series, in a down economy, has been growing and getting even more racers and sponsors. It's MUCH more expensive than ATV racing (it's like MX for trucks - pretty awesome to watch, too!), but I have bigger, better sponsors now than I ever had racing MX. Companies like the Tilted Kilt (total outside sponsor), MagnaFlow, Lucas Oil, Walker Evans, Lonestar, Simpson, Maxxis, AEM, K&N etc.....these are all sponsors that I have picked up without our class actually even being on TV - JUST because many of the other classes ARE on TV, and those are classes they know we will move up to at some point. That is an eventual return on their investment! We also have videos, great promotions people within the series, lots of magazine coverage, contingencies, etc.

I know, without a doubt, that if there wasn't TV exposure present, this series would never have happened. At the most, it would be a small, local, grassroots series competing with several other small, local series. And that would be it.

ATV racing needs to get on TV - plain and simple. Or it will always be where it's at now........

[SRH]

Originally posted by 400grl
Ok...I'm gonna jump into this topic, because over the last couple of years I have learned some things.

Everyone talking about TV exposure is dead on. Most people can't afford to really take on the challenge of the Pro classes - the Pro's that are racing can barely afford it, unless they were loaded to begin with.

So....there needs to be some major sponsors coming into ATV racing. However, you won't get major sponsors without showing them that they will get EXPOSURE for spending their money on you. They don't want the gratification of helping a struggling racer along....that doesn't pay bills or sell product. They want to see a return on their investment. These days, when there are other, TELEVISED forms of motorsports to put their sponsor dollars into, why would they sponsor a sport that gets PITIFUL exposure, compared to the rest?

Somehow, either a major sponsor needs to step in and pay for some time slots on MavTV or Versus, and get these races some exposure - or....someone needs to convince a program that is already seeing some TV time to add ATVs to the package.

I also feel that the WPSA was the BEST step in the right direction for ATV racing - had that been able to continue, I think ATV racing would be in a much better place today.

The GNCC races still seem to attract a ton of entrants still - and I attribute that to the fact that it IS on TV. IT doesn't have to be much.....but for many companies, unless even a little TV time can be promised, they just can't release their advertising dollars. If I were to race GNCC's and I were looking for sponsors, you better believe the first thing I would put on my proposal was the TV package that series was running.

I don't race ATV's anymore......I am now racing short-course in the Lucas Oil Off Road Race Series. This series, in a down economy, has been growing and getting even more racers and sponsors. It's MUCH more expensive than ATV racing (it's like MX for trucks - pretty awesome to watch, too!), but I have bigger, better sponsors now than I ever had racing MX. Companies like the Tilted Kilt (total outside sponsor), MagnaFlow, Lucas Oil, Walker Evans, Lonestar, Simpson, Maxxis, AEM, K&N etc.....these are all sponsors that I have picked up without our class actually even being on TV - JUST because many of the other classes ARE on TV, and those are classes they know we will move up to at some point. That is an eventual return on their investment! We also have videos, great promotions people within the series, lots of magazine coverage, contingencies, etc.

I know, without a doubt, that if there wasn't TV exposure present, this series would never have happened. At the most, it would be a small, local, grassroots series competing with several other small, local series. And that would be it.

ATV racing needs to get on TV - plain and simple. Or it will always be where it's at now........

i see ne atv is starting to run trophy karts and utv's i really see the short course racing catching on

[400grl]

Are they, really?? That's pretty cool!! Any pics/coverage around?

[woodsracer144]

I will like to say that i havnt been very big in the ATV stuff for a little while. i had to take a break because of funds, time and no one to ride with like i did before and a few other things but in my mind i think it should be what you wanna race you race it. open it up to run a 250r or hybred. I know there are some guys out there that have a **** load of 250r stuff still in boxes just sitting in the back of their shop as they race the 450's now. If you open it up I dont think it will hurt the racers anymore cause they will already have the parts for the quad they are racing.. if the choose to change what they are racing they can sell the stuff..
it shouldnt really hurt factorys like duncan or ESR LED or any one like that... it would only really hurt the 4 stroke shops and in their case they can run the 4 stroke stuff they got and then work on the 2 stroke stuff now also.

the other thing is they need to be brought out to the public. when you say motocross they know right off the bat of Ricky, Bubby Travis all those top known guys that run a bike... theres one person i know that when i said motocross the first person he said was Doug Gust. another thing is price. Bikes are flying off the show room floors and the quads they cant get rid of to save their souls. Im not saying the price tag to buy them are much different or that but the aftermarkets I find are. Now i understand that new stuff is quoted" race ready" I cant speak of the new stuff i've never rode anything newer than a 06 450r. so speaking from what i know if you wanted to race and do it every weekend it was taking thousands of dollars on shocks. a-arms. axles maybe a swinger and then motor work. bikes might do a valve job on their forks and rear shock, tripple clamps. and a little motor work. I have a buddy that raced pro for a little while and he would put a pipe on his bike and valve it for him self and run it for a year and sell it in the fall and buy new in the spring. I'm in WI so there wasnt much for winter riding untill the sandbox came around and even then thats the only really winter spot around here i know of.

another thing that i find is killing this sport is a monkey see monkey do. the top 5 pros could run what ever they want and every stupid kid will want what they are racing cause that person is running it. look at monster and rockstar... I'll say they have some good looking stuff at times but its monkey see monkey do.

this is one case there was like a 89-91 polaris 500 POS sled. the hood was all black with a HUGE monster sticker on it. there was a bunch of miles and i called it to see if he still had it for ****s and it was sold. he was asking 1800 ish.

in my mind a killer quad would be a 250r geo with a can am 300/350 E-tec motor maybe a auto or 6 or 5 speed. or else a ktm or something. but a 250r Geo for sure.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Woods,
I read your reply, & heres what I need you to do, sence you know of those 250R & hybred owners & could be they dont know.
Tell every one of those 250R or hybred owners you know, that they can run those 250Rs or hybreds in the AMA/ATVA Extreme Dirt Track series (TT) in any class offered long as it is not a youth class or is termed "production" class.

Pro class is still "production" rule, but, Pro Lite class or Pro Am Unlimited class is open to 306cc 2 stroke or hybreds.
Neil

[woodsracer144]

I will gladly get word out.

Not to be rude but i think that its kind of hard for some of us like me because its not like the track is in our back yard. the closest one for me was in SD or ND what ever state it was in... and that a hour to get to MN and then all the way through MN and then in to the next state to get to the track... thats a long ride. to and from and a very spendy day/ weekend. Could you PM or e-mail me some more information on it? moto-x-man199@hotmail.com

I'll do my best to help you out.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Yea, it is some riding, but it is a national event they would be attending.

It was Renner SD where the race was this past 2010 season, 26 hour ride for us from NC.

Might possible be a race at Muscogee, OK this comming 2011 season, not 100% locked in just yet though.
Neil

[#101]

I feel pretty lucky because ive got a few good tracks within a couple hours of me. The local series definitely supports quads which is awesome, but over the past 2 years atv mx has really been on a downward slope (im thinking mostly due to the economy since that is why most of the local guys quit). We are down to 5 or 6 quads (on a good day) racing here now. A few years ago i remember counting 20 ...which isnt bad for a little backwoods series where theres only 50 or 60 bikes at the most. On the bright side, the dirtbike riders vibe towards quad riders has done a complete 180 in the past few years. Quad riders used to catch crap 24/7 from the local dirtbikers. It seemed to all change around when me and some other local quad riders started backing up quads and not giving in to them. Eventually some of the top bike riders started backing us up too saying how a good bike rider can handle any kind of rut, and helped them realize that 60 bikes tear up a track just as muh if not more than 20 quads. Now at the races the top dirtbikers come and hang out with the quad guys. We have done a few lap time comparisons to show them that quad times can be right there with dirtbike times ( My lap time at a local track was half a second slower than the state champ b class dirtbike rider). I think that was a bit of an eye opener to the guys around here that are always ragging on the quad riders for being so much slower than the bikes. In fact i dont think theres been a single bike rider thats said anything of the sort since we did the lap times.

Also Neil i loveee the kinston fairgrounds tt track. The first race they had there was my first time doing flattrack, and i definitely want to do some more of it soon. I think Chuckie got me hooked on it a bit when he came out to Wilmington and was hangin with me and harris on an mx track that he had never been on before. It was awesome seeing how many quads showed up to the flat track race in Kinston, it definitely was an eye opener to see the numbers at the flat track race compared to the mx race the next day. I think the low entry fees and all is part of the reason why, it was really nice spending half as much to race. Im used to spending easily 100 bucks in a day of racing, i think i ended up spending around 40 to race tt that night. Also letting the 250rs run could have alot to do with it. Oh yea before i forget, tell Chuckie ive been catchin a few good hoglegs down here haha.

Anyways, im always trying to get people started in racing atvs because you never know how far that person is going to make it. We had a local marine around here 2 years ago on a 400ex that i talked into doing a race with us. He is one of the top guys in the A class in texas on his ltr now. It doesnt hurt anything to just promote the sport whenever you can, if you know anyone with a race quad, tell them about the next race coming up or try to get them to come ride with you and see how they like it. If they need a few parts to get started and you have some extras laying around, hook them up! Us quad riders need to stick together haha. Also it would help if we could get away from the "redneck beer chugging quad rider" picture. Showing the dirtbikers that we can hold our own might help out... it seemed to help out around here. I feel like whenever the economy gets better, quad racing is goint to start picking up pretty quickly here. Like alot of people are saying, tv coverage would be awesome since thats the easiest way to show people what quad racing is really like. Getting people started personally would help out alot too... but the economy needs to be better before any of that will start happening........ in other words its all up to Obama :eek: