How Die Hard are you?

[250Renvy]

So I want to gauge how die hard are 250R guys on here? Please read the post before answering.

I've been wanting to get the 250R/2-stroke thing going for a while and have been working on a couple projects that could fill in the missing gaps that ESR or other aftermarkets and especially OEM hasn't been able to fulfill.

The question is always - will it fly? HOW die hard are you guys? Are there guys that you know are die hards that don't use forums/internet?

I have 2 opportunities to raise some capital necessary to start the comeback, but if people don't buy or give input it will be dead in the water.

I have an investor lined up to put $100K into R&D. Originally I was going to put the R&D into developing something new, but since ESR announced that they are going to be producing cases, maybe we just stick with the old and go into production. Maybe the $100K would be better to go into product? There's a potential of 1 million investment if it proves itself. I'd hate to see that lost because nobody steps up or I'm missing some market.

Either way, he needs to know there will be a return so he wanted to do a market test. I have found a product that I can get made for cheaper than the current product out there therefore sell cheaper. The stipulation is I need to move 50 units at $200 in less than 4 months to prove demand.

The other option is to do a raffle in which we offer a discount on product of the raffle price and the main prize is a brand new 250R - choice of stock original show piece or custom aftermarket. $100/ ticket and only 1000 tickets.

NEED input if you want more products brought to market.

I've posted inquiries before, as have others, but it seems like nobody puts their money where there heart is.
We can't do it if we are going to lose money or barely recoup just the initial investment over 5 years. It has to be economically viable. It seems that with the new ama rules 250R's could make a comeback but not if people don't buy parts or ditch for a new quad.

[SilverLake250R]

PM Sent.

[skyeryder]

Make sure I understand is this for motor cases?, parts in general?, or building a 2-stroke race ready quad???

[250Renvy]

Probably not cases since it seems others are already going down that road, but other parts that are not available through other means or possibly a redesign to update and produce motor kits.


What price point would make everybody who has a 250R jump in to support that product, especially if it means in the future they will be able to buy other parts that are no longer available?


For example - since cases were discontinued people were looking into getting cases made - What pricepoint would make you decide to buy cases whether you need them or not?

My focus is transmission and internals - what price would get you to replace a whole new tranny without thinking?

Maybe it'll even just end up being a fund to get others to develop product, like Houser and their suspension nerf bars. Companies will develop stuff if we put in the orders - but there has to be demand or we just sit on product and/or lose money.

[J250r]

I like where this is headed... *subscribed* :)

[wilkin250r]

Like anything else, price is a huge portion of the equation.

For example, a complete set of cases (left and right) was about $500 brand new. If you could make a set for half that price, I think they'd sell like hotcakes. I know I would have bought a set.

[bigmatt61]

X2!

[Pumashine]

Originally posted by 250Renvy
My focus is transmission and internals - what price would get you to replace a whole new tranny without thinking?


I was hoping you were talking about OEM plastic. I would through down $800 a set for 10 sets. And I know we would be able to get alot of different colors. The new builds would be insane.

[1promodfan]

Originally posted by 250Renvy
Probably not cases since it seems others are already going down that road, but other parts that are not available through other means or possibly a redesign to update and produce motor kits.


What price point would make everybody who has a 250R jump in to support that product, especially if it means in the future they will be able to buy other parts that are no longer available?


For example - since cases were discontinued people were looking into getting cases made - What pricepoint would make you decide to buy cases whether you need them or not?

My focus is transmission and internals - what price would get you to replace a whole new tranny without thinking?

Maybe it'll even just end up being a fund to get others to develop product, like Houser and their suspension nerf bars. Companies will develop stuff if we put in the orders - but there has to be demand or we just sit on product and/or lose money.

I know you said trannys etc.......but can you elaborate on which parts exactly you're talking about? Personally I would love to be able to buy a new tranny, especially when I'll be drag racing.

Are you talking about cylinders too? Or just mainly trannys, shift drums, shift forks, flywheels etc? I like the idea you have, but personally I like a lot of the parts that ESR sells. I know someone like him has done a lot of R&D.

Just asking..............

[Lasher]

Being around MX racing for the last 10 years and seeing the 250R rule the track to being pushed aside for the new 450 4 strokes I can only see 1 way that the 250R makes a return.

Having the AMA allow 2 strokes in the pro class.

Sure MX racing is a small amount of sales, but people will buy what the pros are running. If the AMA only allows 250cc 2 stroke to run against 450cc 4 strokes, this will never take off. I know NEATV does not have the "handicap" of displacement and the EDT series that Neil talk about raised their cc limits is a start.

A lot of people at the track are sick and tired of high cost to rebuild a 4 stroke motor. Would they switch back to 2 strokes? Not sure about quad riders, but I have heard of many 4 stroke bike races are switching back to the 2 strokes. They just cannot afford the rebuilding costs during the year.

Am I die hard 2 stroke guy and am glad that ESR and others are starting to pick up the slack from Honda. Hearing that another player (you) are thinking of stepping in is another plus.

I think the two biggest points to making the 2 stroke a comeback is pros running and doing well in racing and most importantly...bringing down the costs of running a season.

[250Renvy]

Originally posted by 1promodfan
I know you said trannys etc.......but can you elaborate on which parts exactly you're talking about? Personally I would love to be able to buy a new tranny, especially when I'll be drag racing.
Just asking..............

If it's going to be direct replacement then it'll be parts that have a void. Right now, that is gears/internals. I'd also like to bring to market a few updates, but that may not be possible unless everything is updated - hence the R&D. We may also look into funding OEM cranks as well, to bring down the cost, but that will take some research as to Honda's contract area.

Since it's an investment, I'm not going to start making products that other companies already make - like cylinders.

Parts that will be necessary right now include:
Complete transmissions, shift forks, kick start gears, pinion gears, waterpumps, counterbalancer gears, updated wireharness.

I'd love to do plastic, but I've looked into it and it is not economically viable in and injection molding system.

I'm also, not so concerned with MX racing since the majority of 250R owners don't race. I'd just like to make sure that we can get everything out there for 250R owners who need it.

[morse250r]

nate mccoy has a billet tranny for the r

[1promodfan]

Originally posted by morse250r
nate mccoy has a billet tranny for the r

Yeah, but you're also looking around $2500+ for one of those. The average 250R owner (like me) ain't gonna shuck out that kind of dough for a tranny.

[morse250r]

Last time I talked to him they were 1100 not bad when a new oem would cost about 700 400 hundy is worth billet at that point

[C41Xracer]

my opinion is tranny gears and those parts will sell slowly. why do you think yukon stopped making them like they were at first.
its gonna be tough to get enough guys on board so you'll make your quota but i hope you do so this pans out.

[250Renvy]

Originally posted by C41Xracer
my opinion is tranny gears and those parts will sell slowly. why do you think yukon stopped making them like they were at first.
its gonna be tough to get enough guys on board so you'll make your quota but i hope you do so this pans out.

Price plays a factor, Yukon was selling them at $600+ for 5 gears. A whole tranny for $600 might do better.

[C41Xracer]

Price plays a major roll , I would like to see an oversize radiator that wasn't an arm and a leg

[1promodfan]

Originally posted by morse250r
Last time I talked to him they were 1100 not bad when a new oem would cost about 700 400 hundy is worth billet at that point

Sorry, then I stand corrected. $1100 sound a lot better, I wish I had that kind of cash to get one.

[sixer3]

yep price will play the biggest factor and your ability to market such a product. though exriders is a great start, its not enough to make any product you have successful enough for a million dollar investor, are you planning on pulling this off privately? patents? possible branding for distribution to larger sales only companies? With all the options for marketing out there, you could easily pull this off privately using nothing but an ebay store and a facebook page and minimal facebook marketing campaigns. maybe I'm thinking too hard on this. either way subscribed. Working in the search engine marketing industry this is how i look at things.

best of luck

[All250R]

Originally posted by 250Renvy

I'm also, not so concerned with MX racing since the majority of 250R owners don't race. I'd just like to make sure that we can get everything out there for 250R owners who need it.
Kevin,
My opinion is this approach is where the project may run into trouble. To be successful you have to make the 250R, and possibly 2strokes as a whole a growing market again. The 2stroke market has been suffering a huge shrinking over the last several years. That would have to be stabilized, and then re-reversed so that owners thinking about buying a quad, will choose a used or new framed 250R. I fill in a small portion for the R community, and in my opinion the industry in 2stokes and R's is not going to be seriously profit worthy on maintenance items from a market that doesn't look like its going to grow (and possibly shrink) in customers.

From that premise, in order to grow the market, the competition for customers is against the Japanese OEM's (not to mention Green marketing) for their customer share and ideas of value that is now mainstream. Effective marketing/advertising is almost synonymous with public opinion and so profit which is why they sponsor in the AMA obviously. I used to think it was IMpossible to get people to think a 2stroke was an inferior engine for power compared to a 4stroke, and I was wrong; not because 4strokes are better for power (anymore than a small 2stroke is better for fuel economy and emissions), but because the advertising, and making a good product proved to be what pulled customer dollars. KTM has been trying to satisfy market share with 2strokes as well. Is anyone in the mainstream taking a profitable bite from the 450 market?

I have the slow burner project of building high quality, cost effective frames that could be titled to replace bikes that are worn and scraped in order to support the existing market, but it's not a front line priority from my perspective in terms of time and dollars. I don't know how I'd go to an investor looking for a return, with a business plan that doesn't indicate strong market potential. With some creative business strategies, maybe it's there, but I think it's an interesting challenge, and basically to the point, I don't think the profits people think of when investing large money will come without eyeing large advertising venues (like TV aired racing) targeted beyond maintenance items for a stable or even shrinking customer base. 2strokemotocross.com has been hot on this path to bring 2strokes to the mainstream again. Get in touch with Jonathan if you haven't already.

We don't have to be big investors to know that big money is found in undervalued markets however, but it's going to take a bigger or new mindset in my opinion.
Jason

[8686]

Not nearly enough demand for something of that scale. Your market would have to be a snapshot of ten years ago when there were hundreds and hundreds of 250R's being abused at every national and wearing out parts like crazy. After the very few 250R faithfuls of today are satisfied with a few new parts, then what? There's not many of us in the big picture. And there would need to be for a project like this to work.

[250Renvy]

Originally posted by All250R
Kevin,
My opinion is this approach is where the project may run into trouble. To be successful you have to make the 250R, and possibly 2strokes as a whole a growing market again.



The project could have gotten off the ground already, it's the marketing that kills. We need a small number of people to step up to the plate to show serious interest.

At this point, it still needs to be shown that there is some kind of market - how you reach that market is the hard part. Marketing dollars eat at production money.

In the next couple months we will be bringing a couple products to test market. If they go well, the R&D money will be decided what will happen with it. If it doesn't go well, the project will be abandoned and we will have to rely on someone with more money.

I understand the challenges, I just don't know if anybody is really that die hard that they would put up money when they can just go buy a new 4-stroke since bringing a whole quad to market is out of reach $10000 race ready 250R is barely 100 with a $1million investment.

Maybe in the future?

[wilkin250r]

Personally, I think you'd see a profitable investment with a unique product, combined with affordable price. If you could get a set of case halves that use CR250 gears, you'd have a profitable market.

The OEM market would still be alive and kicking if the demand was there, right? The reason it's dying is because the demand is dying. I can't see you making a huge profit with a comparable product with comparable prices. To revive that market (without a miracle like 250Rs back in the racing circuit) you'd have to change the market itself. Either by coming up with a new product, or by drastically reducing prices.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see it happen. But the obstacles are tremendous.

[skyeryder]

Would love to see a gate half full or full of R's(2-strokes)again.....
Heres my questions how do all these China company's build these cheap quads and pit bikes with one off xr50, xr70 etc etc motors is there a way that Honda would sell the rights to the R motor???? I doubt it, the price would probably be ridiculous but it's a thought....

[troybilt]

I'd help anyway that I can. I'm not sure what you're after? Keeping the 250r alive...?

I'd like to see R&D money invested in innovation and new ideas...

In my opinion, some of the areas we will see new innovative ideas in the atv world in the next 5-10 years, I've been studying this for awhile now:

Direct injection - 2 & 4 strokes, the EFI now is BS throttle body injection basically.
Traction control, I'm not talking about the LTR's primitive traction control either
SCM - suspension control management, i.e. "brain" suspension, Fox is already working on it.

As far as cases, I'd scrap the 250r cases if ESR is going to be making them, where, I'd focus on is reverse engineering the CR500 to add a counterbalancer into the bottom end... all the Puma's, big bore 250r's, all would be forgotten if there was a legit vibe-free CR500 motor available, and reasonably cost effective. Its the end-game.

If you want to invest in nerfs, bumpers, etc... that's easy stuff, that doesn't take much capital or engineering...

I'm all for keeping the 250r tranny alive, and its a legit concern, but I'd be hard pressed to believe that ESR will go thru the work to redesign the cases, only to have the tranny's difficult to find parts for.

my $0.02

[2-330s]

i was just talking to the local yahama-kawi dealer on my ride home tonight. (ordering yfz and raptor parts lol) he was telling me that 250r s were coming out of the woodwork this summer at the mx and flat track races. the thought was that the high costs of running a four stroke isn't that affordable for a a non sponsored racer. i guess when you drop a valve eat a $1000 head,$250 piston and a $300 cylinder it's good that you didn't have to buy a crank and cases as well lol ;)

guess you gotta pay to play!!:blah: :blah: :blah:

[wilkin250r]

Price and demand are a goofy thing.

Let's run through the numbers, and we'll use today's prices (not the original $2500 price tag of a 250r in 1986). And we'll pretend all parts are still available.

Today, a new 250r would go for about $8000 (same as a YFZ450). But if you were to buy all the parts to put one together yourself, you're looking at a $25,000 endeavor. But Honda can sell them for $8k and still make profit. $1k goes to the dealers ($7k now), and a minimum of 40% goes to labor and overhead ($4k), and $1k to profit, advertising, ect ($3k).

So $25k in parts is only $3k actual cost. That means every part we buy OEM has a 800% markup.

So your $500 set of case halves, Honda only pays $63. Even if we double that, heck, triple that (because of low quantity), wouldn't it be great if we could get a complete set of cases for $190?

[D Bergstrom]

I know I would be interested in a complete transmision (gears, washers, collars, forks, drum, etc.) I feel Service Honda prices would be fair, even a little more would be fine, even better if it could be cheaper. As far as other stuff, I really have no use for it unless I break something. I don't see me buying parts just to have them.

That being said, I agree with others about there not being alot of demand. I feel 250R's are getting more rare, seems to be a few die hards left and that is about it. I don't even remember the last time I saw a 250R other then mine at a local riding area. I am on two 250R sites, it is pretty much the same people on both. Yes, people still will buy parts for the 250R, just not sure if the volume will be there to make it worth it.

As far as the 250R making a comeback to racing, I don't see it. I actually did a update to the suspension on mine to get it working as well as my 450R's do. Figured if I could get it working better I would start racing it on occasion. My update did wonders, the suspension works great, to bad I am still faster on my 450R. Just easier to ride, my 250R wears me out faster. I love riding it, but I think the days of me racing it are done. In my opinion, this is the reason the four stroke took over anyway, just plain easier to ride.

I really hope I am wrong, I really would like a brand new transmission to keep my 250R going for years to come!

Doug

[K-Dub]

First off I think we need to do away with the production rule in ATV racing for many reason but that will be off subject. And we need the 306cc limit Neil and others just got approved for EDT in all forms of ATV Pro racing and the 250R would take off again if for no other reason its cheaper to maintain the engine if parts are avalible. In my opinion Honda left us high and dry to force us to by the 4 strokes.

Ive been working on a 250R to race MX with for the last year, had a major set back with me (tore tenden and legament in right elbow) not the bike. My tranny is shifting hard and has been getting worse what little Ive rode the R. Ill be sending the tranny parts out to be speced in a couple weeks to a well known mechanic. When I asked him to spec it, his words to me was: sure will but parts for 250Rs are scarce and you will have to track the parts down if you need any.

Yes Im interested in a new trannmission.

[slainwarrior]

I think if the parts that are no longer available from honda can be made easily regularly available again the market would pick back up... I own a 450r but most of my life i wanted to build a mx 250r just for the fact that they are classics and have lasted the test of time and the simplicity of being able to customize one however you please. I kinda gave up on the dream of building one when i started seeing how hard it was getting to find certain parts and watched a buddy go through hell buying cylinders and cases that need all kinds of work and end up wasting lots of money that could of been spent in other areas..

If i knew i could build a 250r with out spending countless hours searching classified adds and ebay for certain hard to find parts id deff do it.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

This is tuff.
I kinda didnt know where to start first after reading all this, but I guess a thums up to 250Renvy for his part is best, what your doing realy sounds great.

It is going to take an effort from all of us 2 stroke people to pull this off. It wont be easy & there may be times we just have to pump it up & do what we dont want to do.
#1, is just like Doug said, the 4 stroke is just plain easier to ride, now what is that telling you about the riders your seeing on the tracks today.
I'm 59 years old & seen a lot of bike & atv racing in my years & I know what it is saying to me & makes no difference if it is a Pro riding one.

#2, K-Dub, Honda had a big part in it all of this, but it took two to tango. Honda didnt exclude the 2 stroke from sanctioned racing, guess who did & what choise did a Pro rider have after that.

To an extent, I'm doing what I can in EDT racing for the 2 strokes, but that is only one type of racing.
I can say, that the atv type of racing has grown 15 to 18% over all other types of racing across the country. While other type are loosing riders, we are growing, even with the shape the country is in right now.
I dont know how anybody else looks at it, but for a change in the 2 stroke cc limit like has been done in EDT, I dont know, who would have ever thought it would happen, but it has.

My hope is, that the other types of racing offered, will see what is going on in EDT & follow us so they can grow as well.
If it cost more, it will not grow & only the rich will be there & the poor on the outside looking in, that has got to change.
Our part, the doing what you dont want to do, we got to get those 2 strokes out, get them back on the tracks where others can see them & do the same, its the only way wheather we finish first or last in a race, numbers make a difference.
If nothing else, look at the money you'll save.
Neil

[croat1]

Originally posted by 250Renvy

Maybe it'll even just end up being a fund to get others to develop product, like Houser and their suspension nerf bars. Companies will develop stuff if we put in the orders - but there has to be demand or we just sit on product and/or lose money.

trust me i'm a die hard. but just to let you know even with orders comapnies are staying away from the R. heres what i did/went through:

1. called curtis sparks and wanted to order 5 pipes. answer was NO.

2. called both n-style and factory effex wanted to order 10+ graphics kits. answer was NO.

3. called TPR and wanted to order 20 sets of heel guards. 13 months later still waiting for a final product.

4. called laegers directly and wanted 2 frames built in 2009 and the answer was no. still got them built but had to go to the source.

not important parts but this is where the sport is gone. maybe if the orders were increased by 50 things would be made.

what am i anterested in??? a complete transmission. COMPLETE.
and new.

[skyeryder]

If this is the answer you need I WILL buy a tranny also, or whatever else we need

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Originally posted by croat1 [/i]
[B]trust me i'm a die hard. but just to let you know even with orders comapnies are staying away from the R. heres what i did/went through:

1. called curtis sparks and wanted to order 5 pipes. answer was NO.

2. called both n-style and factory effex wanted to order 10+ graphics kits. answer was NO.

3. called TPR and wanted to order 20 sets of heel guards. 13 months later still waiting for a final product.

4. called laegers directly and wanted 2 frames built in 2009 and the answer was no. still got them built but had to go to the source.

not important parts but this is where the sport is gone. maybe if the orders were increased by 50 things would be made.

what am i anterested in??? a complete transmission. COMPLETE.
and new.


,,,,,,
Answers simple, easy money working on 4 strokes for business owners.
Untill every 4 stroke owner realizes they are being robbed with over priced parts & labor, it wont change, not this day & time.

$250.00 for a 4 stroke piston & what you dont know, has been machined wrong, so you ended up with a slug that wont survive. Stuff like that & soon as it blows up you got to spend more money, better for business but sad for you.
Neil

[K-Dub]

Originally posted by C-LEIGH RACING

#2, K-Dub, Honda had a big part in it all of this, but it took two to tango. Honda didnt exclude the 2 stroke from sanctioned racing, guess who did & what choise did a Pro rider have after that.


I realize the AMA has the final control in whats allowed in what class, but from what Ive read in Cycle news, and RacerX over the years shows the Big 4 has the AMA by the tail. I know you cant believe everything you read. RacerX had an article a couple years ago about them and some others trying to be allowed to race a 250 2 stroke in the 450 SX class. They had a meeting with the AMA and got turned down, from my understanding of the article it was because the Big 4 told the AMA basically we wont race if you allow 2 strokes on the track. Now you and I both know the Big 4 races in pretty much every form of racing the AMA sactions and that gives them alot of control behind the scenes in my opion. So my gut feeling on this is Honda and Yamaha told the AMA we are gonna build 4 stroke ATVs and if you want us to race you gotta get the 250R outta there and kill the aftermarket frame business.


Is ESR for sure going to make case's? To me the 2 biggest things we need that are not being made are case halfs and transmission parts. We need the transmission parts for sure, but how far can you go if there isnt cases to run the tranny in. I would make sure ESR is going to make case half first. If they are not going to thats were I would go first and then bring on the transmission. It was already stated that there is intreast in building 250Rs but witht the parts supply the way it is people turn to the 450s. I was one of these 5 years ago, I sat and pondered which to buy (250Rvs450R) when I decided to get another racing/sport quad. At the time I didnt have the money to spend rebuilding a quad and the thought that it may be sitting waiting on me to find a part so I could ride. I wanted something I was confident I could ride every day or have parts in a few days to get it running again. 5 years later I have both. My 250R is built for MX so not much of a woods machine, thats what the 450R is for. To take out and thrash in the woods. Someday in the future my goal is to do a XC 250R build for an everyday rider, but parts are gonna have to easier to get a hold of than now.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Sofar as I know from ESR, clutch cover molds are being sent to the castor, so it will be cast clutch covers first & once they are off & running, center cases will be next.
Now those center cases from ESR, wont be a retro fit half direct on to a Honda case half, both ESR case halfs will need be bought to make a complete bottom end, so I've been told.
Could be in the future through machining, a Honda & ESR case half might match up, but not in the beginning.
Neil

[CorvetteZ06]

I would def. be interested in a complete transmission, and a updated wire harness!!!!

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Sofar as I know from ESR, clutch cover mock up molds are being sent to the castor, so it will be cast clutch covers first & once they are off & running, center cases will be next.
These new cast parts, will have a slite textured outer surface, not smooth like OEM.
Now those center cases from ESR, wont be a retro fit half direct on to a Honda case half, both ESR case halfs will need be bought to make a complete bottom end, so I've been told.
Could be in the future through machining, a Honda & ESR case half might match up together, but not in the beginning of casting cases.
Has been stated as well, ESR cases will probably be cheaper than Honda OEM cases.
Neil

[KSRRider]

I'm am definitely on the bandwagon for a transmission and wire harness.

[trx250racer]

first observation, a few members have answered your question, "how die hard are you?" they were considering getting a 250r and opted to get a 4-stroke beacause parts are not easy to find for the R.... those are are not die hards!!

who has a 250R sitting abandoned because the can absolutely not find the part they need to get it running?

second oberservation, would ESR survive if the 250r dissappeared? ESR will not allow it. the proof is that they are willing to manufacture new parts. clutch covers now, then cases. who knows they may make the transmission parts next if no one else steps up!!

if you are thinking about getting in the bussiness of the 250R, you need to jump on the wagon now, pick your poison and roll with it..

a few members have clearly pointed out the the key would be make or offer unique parts.. something that people will absolutely want.

transmission would be a great addition, also what taking that capitol available to you and work out some large quantity orders, parts like CROAT1 was talking about. then you would be the exclusive dealer for all those hard to find parts.. hinson parts, quadtech parts, and roll pegs, just to name a few..

remember bling is king!!!

[250Renvy]

O.k. I now need price points. The manufacture cost is going to be determined by quantity ordered.

As of now the plan is going to be complete transmissions. Producing individual gears in different quantities will cause inventory nightmares until I/we can get distributors.

I'm going to shoot for $600-$800. Tranny's from honda were upwards of $1200. Yukon gears still run $300 for 5 gears. What do people think of that price?

R&D will have to be done to make them the strongest possible to handle big bore motors. Some engineering will have to be done to see if they can be improved in design as well and still fit in the cases.

[bigmatt61]

I would buy at least one transmission and maybe two.
Your price point is right on for a complete tranny.

[86honda250]

I will be all over the trannys if they were going to be stronger. If you were to make a billet trany that is not an over ride. I would buy 3 tommorow.

[D Bergstrom]

Originally posted by 250Renvy
I'm going to shoot for $600-$800.

I would be in for one at that price, maybe even two. I am guessing when you say complete, that includes forks, shift drum, etc? If so, I would even be willing to pay a little more especially if they will be stronger. (Much more then the above price I would only be in for one though.) I would guess you will be making the 87 -89 ratio trans?

Doug

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Renvy,
You saying the transmission would be both shafts, all the gears, washers, locks & E clips,,, or just the gears.

Stronger shift forks would be good. The shift drum, man that would be an undertaking getting that right.

If your saying all the above trans stuff, 6 to $800 would be a great price.
Neil

[250Renvy]

Originally posted by C-LEIGH RACING
Renvy,
You saying the transmission would be both shafts, all the gears, washers, locks & E clips,,, or just the gears.

Stronger shift forks would be good. The shift drum, man that would be an undertaking getting that right.

If your saying all the above trans stuff, 6 to $800 would be a great price.
Neil

At this point, I only have a company to make the gears / shafts. It'll still take some time to do the testing and cost calculation to see if it's viable at that price. I was thinking that $ figure cause that is what I would pay, anything over and I'd either have to think about it or wait until something broke.

There may only be one run, so I want people to see it and think "I have to get me one of those" no matter if I need it or not, eventually I will"

I'd like to be able to do all internals, shift forks, drum, kick pinion gear, shifter gear, but I suspect I'll have to source a few more places to get everything done.

Early next year, when the test product comes out, they will need to sell decently fast in order to get the 100K for R&D money. If they don't sell, I have some other ideas to raise capital.

[Honda 250r 001]

Does anyone other than me believe this may be too early? I mean if someone produces a single run of gears. That means that companies like ESR will not be getting that business. ESR has the money to buy a huge supply of gears, a supply that will last a LONG time and they most likely wont have to sell right away. it sounds to me, 250renvy, that you would like these to sell ASAP to make your money back? Nothing against you man, i think its a GREAT idea, but i just think its too early and we can always do this later, but ESR is not always gonna have the chance to build gears. IMO

just my high school .02.

How soon do you believe you are going to be able to get the prototype made?

[8686]

Originally posted by 250Renvy
At this point, I only have a company to make the gears / shafts. It'll still take some time to do the testing and cost calculation to see if it's viable at that price. I was thinking that $ figure cause that is what I would pay, anything over and I'd either have to think about it or wait until something broke.

There may only be one run, so I want people to see it and think "I have to get me one of those" no matter if I need it or not, eventually I will"

I'd like to be able to do all internals, shift forks, drum, kick pinion gear, shifter gear, but I suspect I'll have to source a few more places to get everything done.

Early next year, when the test product comes out, they will need to sell decently fast in order to get the 100K for R&D money. If they don't sell, I have some other ideas to raise capital.

Stop beating around the bush. What exactly are the "test" products and how much will they cost?

[250Renvy]

Originally posted by 8686
Stop beating around the bush. What exactly are the "test" products and how much will they cost?

They are not finished yet. I've learned as soon as you say you are working on something then people want to know and if the timeline is delayed then people get angry/frustrated and go elsewere.

When they are ready, they'll be for sale.

[8686]

Shouldn't you at least mention what these test products will be? If you have to sell them fast, wouldn't you want to be sure people could prepare (if they had to) to buy it, seeing as how people aren't wiping their *** with 20's these days?

[troybilt]

I love the enthusiam, and would possibly be able to do something (monitarily) after the New Year. But doesn't Honda hold the ultimate trump card? All they have to do is see there is demand for something, say transmission parts, flip the preverbial "switch" and then you're dead in the water, even if you're at a cheaper cost. sorry to be the debby downer, I guess I've somewhat of a realist. I tried to get folks on board with the cases and you saw how far that went, for 20 g's you could have most of the R&D expenditure for the cases done, that's not charging for engineering work, but includes the patterns, etc...

Take cranks for example, Hot Rod, Wiseco, all make cranks for the 250r, but when it comes right down to it, people still want the OEM cranks, mostly because of what a few "builders" say on here and other 250r sites....

On another note, CT is apparantly making clutch covers again, I bet its not long before some other aftermarket companies jump back on board... maybe Mark Laeger will come back with MLF and build MLF chassis... I'd love nothing more than to give the OEM's the "finger", but it takes all of us to be on board.

[250Renvy]

Originally posted by 8686
Shouldn't you at least mention what these test products will be? If you have to sell them fast, wouldn't you want to be sure people could prepare (if they had to) to buy it, seeing as how people aren't wiping their *** with 20's these days?

Fine, but if they aren't on time because of delays, I don't want people complaining that they are waiting.

The first batch is going to be Oversize radiators with fans and harnesses.

The radiators by themselves will be $200, and if someone wants the fans and harness it'll be $400.

The Radiators and fans are fine, it's the harnesses that will take longer.

It's also a matter of advertising on this site. Hopefully there will be some leniency since I'm not a company or business yet, it's just an individual trying to get some parts made.
Wilkin will probably have to chime in about that.

[C41Xracer]

I'm all for just the radiator. Keep me posted on that for sure and when I can buy

[troybilt]

Originally posted by C41Xracer
I'm all for just the radiator. Keep me posted on that for sure and when I can buy

X2 I need an oversized one myself. 200 bucks doesn't sound bad at all. Can you add the fan and harness later?

[sameltoe]

X3 on the radiator...

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by 250Renvy
It's also a matter of advertising on this site. Hopefully there will be some leniency since I'm not a company or business yet, it's just an individual trying to get some parts made.
Wilkin will probably have to chime in about that.

Big gray area. I'll run it up the ladder and see what I can do, but I obviously don't have the final say.

We might get some leniency because we are trying to get parts that are currently unavailable, and because we NEED participation to make that happen, and (the next logical step is) you won't get any participation if you can't tell anybody about it.

Gimme a little time, I'll work on it.

[fastredrider44]

Be lenient, There's a lot of lurkers like myself that if this thread got locked, I wouldn't know diddely squat about.

[havinnoj]

Throwing some ideas out:
Buy out all of the OEM Parts and sell them.
Make a silencer for the 250r and other 2 strokes that is emissions legal without robbing much power
I like the cr500 idea
Plastic and little aftermarket parts are solid ideas. I'd get in touch with Jon Safarian at Sand Toyz Unlimited (he's been in the R game for years) and he would probably have some great ideas up his sleeve. Ask any other tuners as well and see what they need.

[Pumashine]

Originally posted by 250Renvy
O.k. I now need price points. The manufacture cost is going to be determined by quantity ordered.

I'm going to shoot for $600-$800. Tranny's from honda were upwards of $1200. Yukon gears still run $300 for 5 gears. What do people think of that price?



Why don't you shoot for $300-$400 for a complete tranny? $60 a gear should be an individual price. $30 a gear for set price. It just seems you are just trying to get as much money as possible for these parts. I am hearing Yukon is going to make another run. Competition is only going to bring the price down.

Yes I am a Die Hard. Why do you think I have these just sitting around?

http://i52.tinypic.com/b5gt3a.jpg

Some people really think about what they are building. Have some insight!
Is this $10,000 worth of gears? LMAO!

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by 250Renvy
Fine, but if they aren't on time because of delays, I don't want people complaining that they are waiting.

The first batch is going to be Oversize radiators with fans and harnesses.

The radiators by themselves will be $200, and if someone wants the fans and harness it'll be $400.

The Radiators and fans are fine, it's the harnesses that will take longer.

It's also a matter of advertising on this site. Hopefully there will be some leniency since I'm not a company or business yet, it's just an individual trying to get some parts made.
Wilkin will probably have to chime in about that. the radiator sounds great, but im not sure how the wire harness will move... the reason I say this is almost anyone can get some automotive grade wire and go to Granger and get the right connectors and build there own harness, Ive built several different types and anyone with a little knowledge can do one! but not everyone has access to a machine shop! Im just saying that you might not sell many harness unless they are real inexpensive.

[atvmxr]

holy :eek2: puma!!

[DnB_racing]

the only way it will work is if you dont get gready!!! the parts that are available have a huge mark up!!!!a part that costs $10 to produce by the time we buy it its marked up 100%, im not saying to give it away but something that costs you with r+d and total cost $10 then charge $15 not $100 and you will sell quick!!!

[JoePA]

I'm all about, as I'm sure everyone else is, buying affordable NEW parts. If I could get new cases, trans or whatever at a price that is affordable I would have noproblem spengin the money.

As mention before you have to sell somethign that every R owner wants and every R owner can afford. Right now what I see is those damn cases. I won't pay $600 for NEW cases but if you get that price down to say $350ish now your talking!

Price and quality. Mo one wants to buy junk but willing to pay for an item at a fair price that holds up. keep your overhead down and get the word out

[250Renvy]

Originally posted by JoePA
I'm all about, as I'm sure everyone else is, buying affordable NEW parts. If I could get new cases, trans or whatever at a price that is affordable I would have noproblem spengin the money.

As mention before you have to sell somethign that every R owner wants and every R owner can afford. Right now what I see is those damn cases. I won't pay $600 for NEW cases but if you get that price down to say $350ish now your talking!

Price and quality. Mo one wants to buy junk but willing to pay for an item at a fair price that holds up. keep your overhead down and get the word out


That's definitely one of the problems to be worked out. What you say is good in theory, but you have to realize when money is involved, nobody does it for nothing. Being that it's a specialty item now and there won't be 50000 customers it'll be costly to do low number runs. The first batch has all the design and tooling costs as well.

The fact is that this stuff is NOT available and if it becomes available it will cost. So the die hard question is, are you die hard enough to pay for it to get it or will you just go 4-stroke/ what's available?

[JoePA]

True no doubt BUT $600 for new cases??? I purchased my quad for $750. Just one of those things I guess. If I needed cases in the worst way... then I'll bite the bullet and purchase.

Die hard.....yes! But a very cheap one!! LOL

[trx293pv]

I'm a die hard two-stroke guy. I couldn't care less if I was running a "250R" or whatever. I don't know about anyone else on this forum but if a viable new two-stroke was developed I would buy one even if it was ten or twelve thousand bucks. I just have 250Rs because they are the best platform to build from. I certainly don't do it because it's cheaper. It's not and everyone knows it. There would have to be a lot hype surrounding them though so parts could be easily had...everyone breaks stuff.

Look at crotch rockets for example.. the prices of them keep going up and up and they just keep getting better and better. dirt bikes the same.. four-wheelers no. $2500 in 1986 and the same in today's money for a YFZ. Where else are people complaining because twenty-five year old technology is banned. ha "hey guys please let me race my 1986 CR 250 at your national motocross...please!" I don't think so.
Something new and big has to come out soon. it's already been mentioned on here that ATV racing is gaining in popularity. Money talks...hopefully the tree huggers will walk.

The quad I'm building now has like four 250R parts on it. seat pan, rear brakes, radiator and transmission. You can either bank on nickel and diming me out of a new tranny and radiator if and when the time comes. Or suck it up and find some more funding to do the R&D for something awesome and take me for everything I've got. I've read the rules for GNCC and it's got nothing to do with tree huggers or the big four or whatever. The rules simply say production frame - not more than 450cc. Tree huggers aren't that smart. Live by the rules. Build and sell wicked two-strokes under 450cc. I'll buy one, pros'll buy one, everyone will buy one because they're cheaper and better in the long run. Two-stokes might blow smoke but it's smoke I don't mind breathing.

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by 250Renvy
That's definitely one of the problems to be worked out. What you say is good in theory, but you have to realize when money is involved, nobody does it for nothing. Being that it's a specialty item now and there won't be 50000 customers it'll be costly to do low number runs. The first batch has all the design and tooling costs as well.

The fact is that this stuff is NOT available and if it becomes available it will cost. So the die hard question is, are you die hard enough to pay for it to get it or will you just go 4-stroke/ what's available? Im sorry to say this but it seams that your more interested in the future of your account then the future of the 250
if your in it for the quick buck then you will probly loose money. but if you stick with it for the big picture and ride out the losses to make a long profit then you have a chance
an analogy that i can make is,,,,,, these quads are our crack!!sell us that first *hit* for low profit for something that we cant live without in the end we will spend every penny to get the product

[slamdak8782]

Although I agree new parts would be awesome. I think a new honda 2 stroke would be better. There is nothing insurmountable about building an r. There are a ton of viable options. Most any machinist can repair the stock cases as good as new for less than 600 dollars. Gears and other small internals are the stumbling block. Maier has plastics covered. Tons of cylinder options. Boss bearings has bearings covered. Spindles hubs are easy buy some 450rs and upgrade. Tanks are available as are carriers axles steering stems wheels and tires, clutches and baskets. The way I see it all we need are internal non available parts. Even headlight assemblies for 87 and up are easy. Just use a 300 ex light washers and nuts bolts right up. I have no trouble finding what I need other than trannys at this point but the reman cases will eventually dry up. But mostly I think there is still a market but realistically what is needed is a total off the shelf redesigned motor much like what. Troy was talking about.

[honda400ex2003]

subscribed! Interesting topic. I dont really have anything to add except a complete stock engine would be great along with fenders, graphics, and radiators. that would be a great place to start.

I know if i could find oem pistons and cylinders i would be all over them. cases would be nice along with trannies would be good. boots for intakes, water pumps and covers, exhaust boots, and reed stuff would all be great. I have not really looked into what Service honda has on hand or anything but im sure they dont have enough to build a complete new engine from the bottom up by the discussion here.

this is where the main problem lies and will continue to lie imo. i am one of the guys that would be interested in something priced right. All of the esr stuff is super cool and is great quality but it comes at major $$. I cant afford to drop 1000-2000 on a few things from esr just because it is cool. OEM style stuff would be great for guys like me that are in school or something with not much money to spend. I had a hard enough time getting the parts i did for mine this fall. I got everything used since they were all discontinued on the bike bandit site. I know i did not check service since i had forgot. I just assumed that if bandit didnt have them service wouldnt either. I was wrong on a few things that i needed though, service did have them. this spring ill def be finding more stuff that i need to get my r back to almost stock and have enough parts to build another top end or 2. cheaper oem cylinders would be a bonus for sure. Id be all over buying a few of them for my 87 for sure. ill be looking at the service honda ones this spring along with a couple of pistons.


Side cases will be purchased this spring also since i have a broken one at the moment. this will be priced out and looked for all over also as will everything else. ebay is a powerful thing, that would be my suggestion to get your stuff going a bit. sell it on ebay, the only problem with ebay is the fees to go with the paypal fees. they can nickel and dime you to death.


I hope i didnt get too off topic. Just the thoughts of someone that is new to the r club and started looking for parts with little success but has high hopes of restoring an r to its original 87 glory again before modding it out. It will be modded again one day, it has to return to stock or find all of the stock parts first before that can happen though. thats just how i work, as long as i have stock parts on hand to replace if something gets broke... let the mods begin. :devil:

steve

[250Renvy]

Originally posted by DnB_racing
Im sorry to say this but it seams that your more interested in the future of your account then the future of the 250
if your in it for the quick buck then you will probly loose money. but if you stick with it for the big picture and ride out the losses to make a long profit then you have a chance
an analogy that i can make is,,,,,, these quads are our crack!!sell us that first *hit* for low profit for something that we cant live without in the end we will spend every penny to get the product

This is where forum threads go south. People need to think before they write stuff.

You don't know what you're talking about. Think for one minute how businesses work. They need to make money - if a business loses money, they can't keep producing stuff : THEY GO UNDER.

If I can't make it pay for my time and recoup investment, It's not going to happen. Do you work for free? Your analogy is also stupid. Crack is literally addictive, and when people don't have the money to fill that addiction they turn to prostitution and crime. 250R's and quads are not crack. Even the so called die-hards often sell their 250R's for house payments and other stuff.

I don't have a million dollars sitting around, but I have some connections in the investment sector and some close friends in a venture capital firm. If I can show that this is viable, even at a 10% return they can feel safe investing.


Originally posted by trx293pv

You can either bank on nickel and diming me out of a new tranny and radiator if and when the time comes. Or suck it up and find some more funding to do the R&D for something awesome and take me for everything I've got. I've read the rules for GNCC and it's got nothing to do with tree huggers or the big four or whatever. The rules simply say production frame - not more than 450cc.

I agree, however it would take 10 million+ to produce a completely new product. Since the only people who have the money to do that are not interested in it, we have to do what we can with what we have.

If we can revive what's out there or even get enough people to buy something "production" as I believe we only need 100 to be classified as that it could go somewhere.

I will be talking to ESR in the new year to see what their plans are, but until I heard they were producing cases I was originally thinking of doing R&D to make dirtbike motors into counterbalanced motors then all we would need to produce are cases and their would be a variety of machines to adapt - mostly European but yamaha makes the YZ250, KTM300, GasGas 300, Maico 250-600. I figued if we do the design work, maybe we could get them to go into production saving us the major investment.

[troybilt]

Originally posted by 250Renvy
....until I heard they were producing cases I was originally thinking of doing R&D to make dirtbike motors into counterbalanced motors then all we would need to produce are cases and their would be a variety of machines to adapt - mostly European but yamaha makes the YZ250, KTM300, GasGas 300, Maico 250-600. I figued if we do the design work, maybe we could get them to go into production saving us the major investment.

This^^^ has got my vote, being an engineer I prefer new ideas and innovation!! I'd love to help in anyway that I can. I'm all for a KTM, Husaberg, Yamaha, Rotax, 2 stroke powered bike, I'd even design a new chassis to handle the newly designed Counter balance motor. I'd also like to invest in researching a CDI-reverse, that would be killer IMO and a nail in the 4 stroke's coffin. EFI I'm not sold on, it would have to be direct Orbital injection to go anywhere...

Its "your" money sort of speak so I think you do what you think and forget about us on the message boards! I hope you make a killing on 250r parts, that would help you invest in more parts down the road!!

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by 250Renvy
This is where forum threads go south. People need to think before they write stuff.

You don't know what you're talking about. Think for one minute how businesses work. They need to make money - if a business loses money, they can't keep producing stuff : THEY GO UNDER.

If I can't make it pay for my time and recoup investment, It's not going to happen. Do you work for free? Your analogy is also stupid. Crack is literally addictive, and when people don't have the money to fill that addiction they turn to prostitution and crime. 250R's and quads are not crack. Even the so called die-hards often sell their 250R's for house payments and other stuff.

I don't have a million dollars sitting around, but I have some connections in the investment sector and some close friends in a venture capital firm. If I can show that this is viable, even at a 10% return they can feel safe investing.



I agree, however it would take 10 million+ to produce a completely new product. Since the only people who have the money to do that are not interested in it, we have to do what we can with what we have.

If we can revive what's out there or even get enough people to buy something "production" as I believe we only need 100 to be classified as that it could go somewhere.

I will be talking to ESR in the new year to see what their plans are, but until I heard they were producing cases I was originally thinking of doing R&D to make dirtbike motors into counterbalanced motors then all we would need to produce are cases and their would be a variety of machines to adapt - mostly European but yamaha makes the YZ250, KTM300, GasGas 300, Maico 250-600. I figued if we do the design work, maybe we could get them to go into production saving us the major investment.

I did think before I wrote this ...and im sorry if you dont understand my point

I went into my own business knowing that my first few years I wasn't going to make a profit! but you have to be able to ride out the losses to make a profit. all I meant is if your in it for a quick buck it will backfire. but its you money do what you think will work and i really hope It does work out
if I had tried to make the first customers pay for my investments I would have been out of business even before I had a chance to recoup my losses, any profits made has to go back in the bussness not the pockets or thats when it ends

[250Renvy]

Originally posted by DnB_racing
I did think before I wrote this ...and im sorry if you dont understand my point

I went into my own business knowing that my first few years I wasn't going to make a profit! but you have to be able to ride out the losses to make a profit. all I meant is if your in it for a quick buck it will backfire. but its you money do what you think will work and i really hope It does work out
if I had tried to make the first customers pay for my investments I would have been out of business even before I had a chance to recoup my losses

No I understand it, it's just when you go into business with your own money you have the luxury of riding it out - IF YOU CAN. Since you used an analogy - this would be a better example of the same situation we would be in.

Electronics - televisions, cameras, computers. When a new product comes out the prices are really high - the people who don't care will pay those prices because they have to have those new products. As market increases and investment is recouped, all that is left is production cost and prices drop and demand goes up.

When you have investors involved they will usually do 1 of 2 things - pull the plug and take the loss and lose the capital or feed it with more capital until they recoup the losses and turn a profit.

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by 250Renvy
No I understand it, it's just when you go into business with your own money you have the luxury of riding it out - IF YOU CAN. Since you used an analogy - this would be a better example of the same situation we would be in.

Electronics - televisions, cameras, computers. When a new product comes out the prices are really high - the people who don't care will pay those prices because they have to have those new products. As market increases and investment is recouped, all that is left is production cost and prices drop and demand goes up.

When you have investors involved they will usually do 1 of 2 things - pull the plug and take the loss and lose the capital or feed it with more capital until they recoup the losses and turn a profit. now are you saying that you will be producing something thats a NEW idea? if so then it could work. but if its something that can be got from someone else, then most people will just get the one thats cheapest, if your hoping that die hards will pay more for the same product then I dont see it selling

[Ruf Racing]

Originally posted by 250Renvy

I was originally thinking of doing R&D to make dirtbike motors into counterbalanced motors.

Now, you have my attention! I believe this is our best option.
Counterbalanced CR250 motor, damn good!

[trx293pv]

Doesn't Gas Gas already make a two-stroke quad that would qualify as a production four-wheeler if 100 is all it takes? If so, how come no one is running them? Lack of aftermarket development? Cost or availablity of replacement parts? Lack of dealers?

For me anyway these are enough to be a deal breaker but I'm not pro either so... Maybe if they raced they'd get some market share and we'd have a cost-effective alternative to running hopped up 80's era quads.

Good luck.

[C41Xracer]

theres no aftermarket support for the gas gas and ive heard there heavy

[Langbolt]

I have a friend that owns/operates a gear manufacturing shop.

He has made 250R gears before....I will ask him to quote what a complete transmision (Main shaft - Output shaft & the gears inbetween) would cost....just to see what is involved.

The forks and shift drum is the tricky part.

I just looked at the microfische on the 2011 KTM 300xc and their prices for internals aren't bad at all.

Too bad the motor wasn't counterbalanced as BOTH cases are under $600

I wonder if KTM would ever put a 2-stroke in their ATV lineup ???

:devil:

[trx293pv]

I've thought about doing a ktm300 into 525 swap before. Even did some research. Looks feasible because the new ones are electric start. No worries about the kick starter clearing the fender. That's one of the main issues with dirt bike engines.

I don't know why the same engine can rattle in a quad but not on a bike. Hadn't thought about that. The only other thing I can think of is the air boot because the carb is so much higher on a four stroke. That's the whole point of the two stroke though; the weight sits lower in the frame.

I posted something on the ktm section of this sight about a swap but I didn't get much response. Maybe I'll freshen it up and see if anyone replies...

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by Ruf Racing
Now, you have my attention! I believe this is our best option.
Counterbalanced CR250 motor, damn good!

I agree here, but since ESR is making cases for the 250r now...

[bansheeboyo]

IF YOU MADE NEW LIGHT WEIGHT FRAMES I WOULD TAKE 2

[rsss396]

Originally posted by 250Renvy
No I understand it, it's just when you go into business with your own money you have the luxury of riding it out - IF YOU CAN. Since you used an analogy - this would be a better example of the same situation we would be in.

Electronics - televisions, cameras, computers. When a new product comes out the prices are really high - the people who don't care will pay those prices because they have to have those new products. As market increases and investment is recouped, all that is left is production cost and prices drop and demand goes up.

When you have investors involved they will usually do 1 of 2 things - pull the plug and take the loss and lose the capital or feed it with more capital until they recoup the losses and turn a profit.

I applaud your effort, but I think you will never make a dime.

The majority of the market of these parts will evaluate the cost of rebuilding with used or repaired pieces.
Only a select few will drop real money into these products because once you finally price everything out it will more than likely be higher than expected and as you can see you are getting hammered about making a profit.

A 100% profit on a set of gears will still take along time to recover your return on because of all the hours and testing of the products before releasing them to the masses.
What if your metallurgical specs are off and the gears break or wear premature. who pays for this, if you pass the buck onto the consumer you will be bashed and run out of business
And if you warranty them you may never recover from the losses or even the bad rap that a few will never let go no matter how good you treat them.

These bikes are a hobby some very serious but for the most just a hobby that many will move on to something different in a short time.
Large investments in non-bling items or items that don't really do anything more than replace something that is no long available will be a tough market.

How many people go to the car dealer to replace parts when parts stores are cheaper and will warranty longer.
Most people will opt for the cheaper option.

I would like to see a survey of the age groups and how many years of owning a 250r.

My guess the younger crowd will dominate but are early in their careers so between everyday living and starting a families it is tough for non-essentials.

How many Sabertooth and Puma motors do we see? not really that many and if you where to ask how many want them a bunch want them but the fund dictate why they don't.

sorry to be a downer just my thoughts and best wishes on your decision

[YFZ_Racer42]

Wow, a counter balanced 05+ YZ250 engine that bolt on in a 250R frame would be nice as hell... I've dreamed about it, I always wanted to try this engine in a quad as they have an awesome powerband for a stock bike, and as the YZ250 are still in production, we would have every part available for the next ten years and maybe more... the only problem would be to find an engine to put the cases on...

[smoke tractor1]

Why don't you make a poll in big bold letters,and have all the parts that might be in need to see what people would like!then you could see the part of the market.I personally would get mine back out if trannie and plastics were available,I'm sure most if not all of the company that made it through the years off of r parts would be more than willing to get back into frame production if there was interest in them again,There has been interest in them,we just have to get em out there and show them darn 4 strokers up some more.I've had no problem being competitive against 4 strokes but parts are too scarce to continue running them,I went to 4strokes completely this year and have already tripled my maintence costs in the first 1/4 of the season.Hope the parts market returns for the r,It's is the standard for the race quad!Hate to see it go away!I'm hanging on to my bikes hoping!

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by troybilt
EFI I'm not sold on, it would have to be direct Orbital injection to go anywhere...


EFI from a private-investor's standpoint, no. No point in it.

However, if they were to ever make their way back into production, EFI is the only direction I could see it possibly happening.

[troybilt]

I guess I don't want to see a warmed over throttle body injection which is what is out there today...

did you see what Suzuki did for 2011? Modified the ecm so you can't throw a cherry-bomb on there to remapp the fuel... EPA thing. So what that means, is its just going to cost the consumer more money to remapp the computer cause someone will figure it out. If there is power to be made then there is money to be made...

Closed loop Direct injection is the ticket... I only mention the orbital setup cause that is what KTM has been working on with their 2 strokes, and Evinrude has mastered it on their 2 strokes as well. Lower emissions that a 4 stroke...

[wilkin250r]

Throttle-body injection is a little bit more precise than carburetors for 4-stroke engines, but it doesn't accomplish what we need for 2-stroke motors. The main problem with anything injected from the throttle body is that the intake and exhaust ports are still open at the same time, and that's impossible to change. If the fuel is mixed with the incoming air, you'll always have losses out the exhaust port. As I understand it, the main pollution problem with 2-strokes is the unburned fuel.

You're correct, direct injection is the only method that will correct that problem. The ONLY way you can prevent fuel losses out the exhaust port is to inject fuel directly into the combustion chamber after the exhaust port has closed. The difference between Orbital, Ficht, and HDPI are the slightly different methods to achieve that same result, the injection of fuel directly into the combustion chamber.

(troy, you probably already knew most of that, this is just a basic overview and background for members that never had any exposure to it)

[troybilt]

I know the basics with injection that's about it.

Direct injection would open up a whole new bag of tricks... porting, exhaust, mapping, etc... Gone would be the days of tuning with jets, air screws, needles, grinding ports, timing, etc... the era of tuning with a computer would be ushered in... how many want that to happen?

Can the timing be setup with the direct injection mapping and exhaust port closing so that an expansion chamber is rendered useless? Or will you always need to have the expansion chamber exhaust pulse effect to push the volume clean fuel air mixture that is drawn from the transfer ports back into the cylinder? Honestly, I'm not real clear on that. I need to study that more...

[wilkin250r]

I agree about the era of computer tuning, and I don't like it, but at the same time I don't like the idea of 2-strokes disappearing completely, either. The days of carbureted 2-strokes are almost completely gone as it is, the computer-controlled era is the only era left that we can have any hope for.

And yes, you'll always need the expansion chamber, unless you could find a really fancy way to open and close the cylinder walls themselves. The returning exhaust pulse is what builds compression, and stuffs the cylinder full of oxygen-rich air. Without it, you'd be running on half your cylinder.