old shock linkage vs. updated linkage. [Archive]

extremetrucker

12-05-2010, 08:28 AM

hmm, i must be losing it, i coulda swore i seen some new 400ex's with the "dog bone" portion fabbed outta steel plates with bushings welded between them, but now that im looking, it appears the lower link piece is machined as opposed to cast, they dont look any different geometry wise, but theres no telling by looking at pics...

jcs003

12-05-2010, 08:33 AM

Originally posted by extremetrucker
hmm, i must be losing it, i coulda swore i seen some new 400ex's with the "dog bone" portion fabbed outta steel plates with bushings welded between them, but now that im looking, it appears the lower link piece is machined as opposed to cast, they dont look any different geometry wise, but theres no telling by looking at pics...

to me they look more like the GT thunder XC-link.

400man

12-05-2010, 09:51 AM

Originally posted by jcs003
to me they look more like the GT thunder XC-link.

I just looked at some pics on ebay and yea they are different. they have the same looking shape as the gt thunder links, just not as much bend though. I bet if you replaced the 1st gen. link with the later model one it would probably lower it down just a little bit.

jensenracing77

12-05-2010, 07:24 PM

i am not so sure they changed the geometry. if they did i sure hope they didn't copy the GT thunder link. (i'm sure that will upset people) the motion ratio of the GT thunder link sucks. i have yet to see a linkage for the 400Ex that is better than the stock linkage with a shock that is set up right.

trailrider894

12-05-2010, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by jensenracing77
i am not so sure they changed the geometry. if they did i sure hope they didn't copy the GT thunder link. (i'm sure that will upset people) the motion ratio of the GT thunder link sucks. i have yet to see a linkage for the 400Ex that is better than the stock linkage with a shock that is set up right.

wow... not sure what planet you came from. The GT Thunder link is way better than stock... The stock linkage is crap because it throws you around so much.

jcs003

12-06-2010, 03:16 AM

Originally posted by jensenracing77
i am not so sure they changed the geometry. if they did i sure hope they didn't copy the GT thunder link. (i'm sure that will upset people) the motion ratio of the GT thunder link sucks. i have yet to see a linkage for the 400Ex that is better than the stock linkage with a shock that is set up right.

all i know is that alot of pros use the GT thunder link.

jensenracing77

12-06-2010, 03:33 AM

Originally posted by jcs003
all i know is that alot of pros use the GT thunder link.
how many pros are on a 400EX? the one for the Honda 450 sucks worse. i hear that the yamaha link is good but never seen any specs on it. i have not see n any specs of the GT link for a 400 for several years. maybe they updated it.

jcs003

12-06-2010, 05:55 AM

Originally posted by jensenracing77
how many pros are on a 400EX? the one for the Honda 450 sucks worse. i hear that the yamaha link is good but never seen any specs on it. i have not see n any specs of the GT link for a 400 for several years. maybe they updated it.

i wasnt specifically arguing for the 400. the GT thunder links in general. off the top of my head. traci cecco uses a GTT link and she is the winningst woman XC racer.

the facts are that it is a commonly used aftermarket suspension enhancement and the updated 400ex link is similiar to the GTT link. is it better or worse...i dont know. this is wht is started the thread.

jensenracing77

12-06-2010, 04:07 PM

i don't mean to bash a product that so many people like and most of my experience is MX setups. for some reason the cross country guys just love these links. if (and that is a big IF) you can get a shock company to be honest with you, most of the TOP shock builders will tell you the same thing about the 400EX and 450R GTT link. most shock companies won't tell you that and will just built the shock to overcome the motion ratio and the rider don't know the difference.

dustin_j

12-07-2010, 02:06 PM

I have a GTT mx link, an 06+ stock 400ex link, and a 99 stock 400ex link. The 06+ is definately not very close to the GTT link. I quickly laid the two generations of 400ex links over each other and they look to be the same, just manufactured differently. I'll try to take some measurements sometime to confirm.

I love my GTT mx link! Jensen: what shock builder told you to use a stock link over a GTT link? I'm guessing the builder either only had charts for the stock link, or they used different extended and compressed lengths to "fix" the stock link. Would you care to share any info on the shock setup you received (number of springs, length, etc)?

jensenracing77

12-07-2010, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by dustin_j
I have a GTT mx link, an 06+ stock 400ex link, and a 99 stock 400ex link. The 06+ is definately not very close to the GTT link. I quickly laid the two generations of 400ex links over each other and they look to be the same, just manufactured differently. I'll try to take some measurements sometime to confirm.

I love my GTT mx link! Jensen: what shock builder told you to use a stock link over a GTT link? I'm guessing the builder either only had charts for the stock link, or they used different extended and compressed lengths to "fix" the stock link. Would you care to share any info on the shock setup you received (number of springs, length, etc)?
i am not going to tell the Shock company. they build many shocks for that link. i should have not got involved in this discussion. my 400EX has a much older Axis shock. i went with a compression adjustable only and duel spring. at the time i would have lost some travel with a rebound adjustable and needed all i could get. i think there newer shocks don't loose any travel with rebound adjusters. i do have more up travel than most. this shock would never work for GNCC or similar racing. if bottoming out flat the frame will hit the ground first. this was not built for normal racing or riding tho. you won't believe this but i will tell you any way. i over jumped my freestyle ramp while jumping on a windy day. i landed from over 30 feet in the air to flat ground and never hurt this shock. axle and bearing carrier is another story. also broke a Hyper wheel. and no i did not get hurt.
good times :)

trailrider894

12-07-2010, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by jensenracing77
i am not going to tell the Shock company. they build many shocks for that link. i should have not got involved in this discussion. my 400EX has a much older Axis shock. i went with a compression adjustable only and duel spring. at the time i would have lost some travel with a rebound adjustable and needed all i could get. i think there newer shocks don't loose any travel with rebound adjusters. i do have more up travel than most. this shock would never work for GNCC or similar racing. if bottoming out flat the frame will hit the ground first. this was not built for normal racing or riding tho. you won't believe this but i will tell you any way. i over jumped my freestyle ramp while jumping on a windy day. i landed from over 30 feet in the air to flat ground and never hurt this shock. axle and bearing carrier is another story. also broke a Hyper wheel. and no i did not get hurt.
good times :)

Honestly in my opinion this sounds like your setup is wrong. I see now why you don't want to tell who the shock builder was. I don't want my shock built by whoever it is because it sounds like they don't know what they are doing. The ATV SHOULD BOTTOM before everything flattens out. You run so many risks like that including cracking the engine cases, swingarms, wheels, axles, subframes, ruining calipers, exhaust, etc... I would know that i would rather buy a new shock than all of those things.

dustin_j

12-07-2010, 08:08 PM

jensen, I understand if you don't want to tell the shock company. I hope I didn't offend you, I'm just trying to get some discussion. Glad you weren't injured; I can believe you shock survived, Axis makes some nice stuff:D . Side question, is your 450R trike using the stock linkage?

I did check, and the two vintages of 400ex linkages are the same. The 06+ link is deceptive since it's actually slightly lower and thinner between the frame and shock mounts.

jensenracing77

12-08-2010, 03:11 AM

no problem, i don't come across very good on the net. my setup is definitely not the proper setup for most people but you may be surprised how well it works for what i am doing. even Jon Gutter and his friends was amazed how great it worked.

the TPC 450 has the stock link on it now and that is what i was doing freestyle on but i was not going very big. the stock 450R back suspension SUCKS real bad in 4 wheeler form. with this setup, you have less weight and a longer swingarm. that gives you more leverage ratio but lighter. it turns out to not be so bad in this setup. i have a DC6 link i am going to put on and should have my PEP shock this week.

jensenracing77

12-08-2010, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by trailrider894
Honestly in my opinion this sounds like your setup is wrong. I see now why you don't want to tell who the shock builder was. I don't want my shock built by whoever it is because it sounds like they don't know what they are doing. The ATV SHOULD BOTTOM before everything flattens out. You run so many risks like that including cracking the engine cases, swingarms, wheels, axles, subframes, ruining calipers, exhaust, etc... I would know that i would rather buy a new shock than all of those things.

Axis built this shock. i will tell you that. if you land jumps correct, the frame hitting the ground is not a problem also if you are over jumping you need to land back first and on the throttle. the back will bottom out before the frame hits the ground in this situation. like i said, this setup is not for many people. you need to be very smooth for this setup and if making a mistake know how to keep the front up.

the biggest reason i don't like the GTT links for the 400EX is because it take the progression out of the leverage ratio. the stock 400EX link has a very consistent progression and works all the more in my favor for my type of riding. now for the 450, the stock link has very inconsistent progression and is part of the bucking problem with the stock suspension. in this situation anything is better than that. the GTT link is even better than stock. the DC6 and Walsh have a much more consistent progression than the GTT.

trailrider894

12-08-2010, 10:05 PM

Originally posted by jensenracing77
Axis built this shock. i will tell you that. if you land jumps correct, the frame hitting the ground is not a problem also if you are over jumping you need to land back first and on the throttle. the back will bottom out before the frame hits the ground in this situation. like i said, this setup is not for many people. you need to be very smooth for this setup and if making a mistake know how to keep the front up.

the biggest reason i don't like the GTT links for the 400EX is because it take the progression out of the leverage ratio. the stock 400EX link has a very consistent progression and works all the more in my favor for my type of riding. now for the 450, the stock link has very inconsistent progression and is part of the bucking problem with the stock suspension. in this situation anything is better than that. the GTT link is even better than stock. the DC6 and Walsh have a much more consistent progression than the GTT.

I am very aware of how landing is done and etc.... I personally would never build a setup like yours because its something i have never heard of. I would have to see and ride your setup to really be critical, but i am pretty familiar with the 450r and 400ex rear end geometry, and with the GTT Link and a Shock built to the GTT link specs i know that it will perform 110% all the time. I just struggle with the stock link in motorcross because of the rear end bucking up when on whoops. The GTT link and a shock built for it is the only thing i have found that is yet to fix it. Even a shock built to stop the bucking from happening on the stock linkage.

Black Sheep

12-09-2010, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by trailrider894
I just struggle with the stock link in motorcross because of the rear end bucking up when on whoops. The GTT link and a shock built for it is the only thing i have found that is yet to fix it. Even a shock built to stop the bucking from happening on the stock linkage.

I can fix that by removing 55lbs and adding a longer swingarm with a stock shock. You'll go through the woops faster than you ever have on 4 wheels :devil:

jcs003

12-09-2010, 01:11 PM

jensenracing77

12-09-2010, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by jcs003
how are you removing 55lbs?

like this :)

jcs003

12-10-2010, 12:22 AM

i see.:D i like those 450 trikes.

400man

12-10-2010, 10:31 AM

with my GT thunder XC linkage...........occasionally I bottom out sometimes and my frame hits the ground, like for example going down a long hill pretty fast, then when the ground levels out or goes back uphill, my frame/skidplate/ and sometimes my nerfbars will hit the ground. I dont do any jumping at all but I would imagine it would bottom out easy if I did. this is the only thing I dont like about my rear suspension....but in the trails it feels awesome how it feels all squatted down when you get on the gas. would getting the shock revalved and maybe resprung fix the bottoming out? I only weigh like 150lbs

dustin_j

12-10-2010, 11:25 AM

Originally posted by 400man
with my GT thunder XC linkage...........occasionally I bottom out sometimes and my frame hits the ground, like for example going down a long hill pretty fast, then when the ground levels out or goes back uphill, my frame/skidplate/ and sometimes my nerfbars will hit the ground. I dont do any jumping at all but I would imagine it would bottom out easy if I did. this is the only thing I dont like about my rear suspension....but in the trails it feels awesome how it feels all squatted down when you get on the gas. would getting the shock revalved and maybe resprung fix the bottoming out? I only weigh like 150lbs

The stock spring is actually pretty close for your weight with that link. Have you set your sag correctly, if you needed more than 3 turns of preload to get sag then you may benefit from a step stiffer. Revalve will help also, but overall, it's good you are bottoming occasionally as it means you are using all your travel. I think the frame hitting is more a function of tire height and pressure. What is the actual height of your tire at correct pressure. What pressure do you run, and what rim diameter? Your frame will drag in some areas, the goal is to make sure the shock bottoms before it does.

dustin_j

12-10-2010, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by Black Sheep
I can fix that by removing 55lbs and adding a longer swingarm with a stock shock. You'll go through the woops faster than you ever have on 4 wheels :devil:

I would like to see a video of a 3 wheeler going through whoops faster than a 4 wheeler:D . Those trikes are sweet for sure!