Quick ?'s

[Hooligan]

I feel like a real newb with these :huh lol

I have an Apex 90 that is supposedly fully built (it is sick, almost as much fun as my YFZ)

-What's the correct spark plug?

-What's the jetting range for a built machine? (running premix w/ VP)

-Any idea why it's so hard to start this? Only kick start, and only starts w starter fluid and 20 kicks

-After we had it running, it overheated and wouldn't start again. Coolant blew through the hose and was spewing all over the a-arms :mad:

Any suggestions of where to start or where to find good info on these is appreciated!!

Thanks!

[xtremeatv]

I think the apex takes a BR8ES or a 9 depending on which you like,

Jetting is going to depend on what you have done to your machine and what carb your running.

To me it sounds like your running lean which could explain why its hard to start and why its overheating. could be lean simply because your carb isnt jetted right or your crank seals could be bad.

Give more info on what you got on your engine. Might not be a bad idea to do a compression and leakdown test on your engine.

[Logan #34's Dad]

Hooligan, How close are you to Hetrick's shop in Oil City? I know PA is a long state but it may be a wise investment to take it to them to get it straight so you don't blow it up. You could probably call there and they should be able to give you a good idea on where your jetting should be.
It sounds like your timing may be off a little. But jetting is more than likley the problem.

[woodsracer22]

Sounds like a blowen head gasket to me.

[mmsoup]

I'm with Woods

May have run lean first but sounds like impulses are hitting the coolant now

The leakdown test will help and a plug check wouldn't hurt

[Hooligan]

Not positive on what all was done to the motor, I bought it used :ermm:

Was going to check the plug color, but I couldn't get it running again and I had already put a new plug in.

I'm about 4 hours from Hetrick, which is why I'm doing it in my garage lol Wish I were closer

Guess I'm going shopping for a leak down tester tomorrow, I hope the head gasket is not blown :eek: What's normal on these at 100psi, 2% or less?


...this is a major PIA, especially since I want to work on my own quad :D

Thanks for all the input!!!

[Logan #34's Dad]

Originally posted by Hooligan

...this is a major PIA, especially since I want to work on my own quad :D

Thanks for all the input!!!

Bad news for you then because these cvt's just suck. You might as well put your quad on the back burner. You'll never be done messing with a cvt.

[mmsoup]

Dusenberry is right

These CVT's are time consuming but can be fun to work with depending on your perspective.

Leak down test:

1. Piston at bottom dead center
2. Exhaust blocked off with freeze plug or rubber gasket with metal back plate torqued down for zero leaks
3. carb off
4. Test Kit Adaptor plugged into intake adaptor (again tight)
5. Pressure up to roughly 6 lbs
6. Engine should hold ALL pressure for 10 minutes
7. Get a spray bottle with water/dish soap solution if leaks are indicated. Spray around intake area, cylinder base, and case halves first. If still leaking go to crank seals check the right one first (Stator Side) It is the weak link then move to the variator side if necessary

My wife made our test kit and it works perfectly. She bought a blood pressure cuff and took the gauge, hose and bulb off it. She then bought the neccessary PVC diameter to fashion an intake adaptor along with the required plumbing and pipe tape to make an airtight fit. Roughly $30 later we had a solid leakdown tester. We use a freeze plug on our daughters exhaust port (Malossi cylinder) works great. My son's DRR has a ported stock cylinder and I use the freeze plug but I have to use a safety wire tie bridge to keep it in place.

Compression test is a different kit and we look for different pressure readings depending on the cylinder. We bought our compression test kit at Advance auto for about $30. The Malossi runs around 145lbs The stock cylinder can range from 120lbs to 175 lbs depending on Squish and head shape. Some folks try to take compression up higher but life span becomes an issue and we race cross country

Good luck and you can get parts (In this case, Seals, O-Rings, Gaskets) from g-forcepowersports.com Gary Fallon keeps everything in stock and has always been excellent to my family.
Hetrick and Hot Quads are excellent companies as well

[cik orange]

Don't really know what the leakdown should be but hang in there keep asking ?s you'll be fine.

Rocky send me your mailing address so I can send you over a HUG!!! cvt's couldn't be all bad you stayed in them how many years?

[Hooligan]

I may just have to try and make a leak down tester, no one around me carried one (saw them on-line though...way more than $30 lol), so I grabbed a compression tester from Advance auto. Still wasn't exactly sure how many kicks i should give it to achieve a certain pressure..is it just one, or enough until it stops building pressure? I was assuming the more I kicked, it would obviously keep building pressure.

1st kick-30
2nd kick-60
3rd kick-less than 90
subsequent kicks inched it up until I realized I need to come back here for more help to determine if I was even doing it right.

Maybe I should just come out of denial and order a head gasket, and make sure the piston isn't warped or anything..not sure what else to do other than fuel, spark, & compression.

..not putting my quad completely on the back burner yet, just ordered a Rekluse clutch, new high comp piston, and some random stuff like a chain and new case saver..and bearings should be on the way
:devil:

Thanks again all!

[woodsracer22]

90psi is not enough the head gasket is out.

[mmsoup]

Woodsracer may be right

Just in case, the proper way to check compression is:

HOLD THROTTLE WIDE OPEN

Give ten full kicks

Check Pressure reading, it will not reverse

I am attaching a photo of our leak down tester. We used the existing pressure gauge with the Blood pressure cuff which has a higher scale than we need but works just fine. You don't want to put much more than 6 pounds of pressure in the motor when testing. (Seals) I believe the crankcase pressures are only around 1 1/2 atmospheres while running

[Hooligan]

@ 10 drunken kicks psi was at 130, earlier I had it up to 140 but not sure how many kicks I gave it. Is that still too low for this motor?

Ohhhh, that pic makes it a lot simpler, the description made it sound like a lot more parts for some reason. You could even add an air compressor quick connect in place of the manual pump couldn't you? The way it is keeps it pretty simple though..wonder if my girl will notice some of her nursing gear missing? ;)

[mmsoup]

Quick connect prolly a bad idea:) too much too quick.
130 is fine wouldn't get too worried about that.
Take the head off and look at the O-Ring to be sure, it won't hurt it and it won't take but a couple of minutes.

Check for leaks

Make sure the jetting is spot on

Then start eliminating electronics if necessary

Always wear a helmet during drunken testing:chinese:

[Hetrick Racing]

With the kicks for compression 10 is fine but always check that motor at 10 kicks and always kick it with the same force and always kick it the same speed.(time between strokes)
Or kick it until the gauge quits moving and read the gauge

Just being a smart ars but kick it until the gauge stops moving that way you do not have as many variables

[Hooligan]

...I should have had a helmet, I was heading out back for a smoke and put flip flops on...then decided to stop and see how many kicks it took for pressure to stop building (it was 10, about 140 psi). After 4 kicks I realized I needed shoes after recalling when an 85 KX80 kicker ripped though a sneaker I had on once :huh

WTF am I missing on this? I have fuel, spark, and apparently compression??

@ Hetrick-The one time I had this running, it was a beast! I'm almost positive the guy I got it from in East Stroudsburg (here in PA) said he you did all the motor work and I believe the exhaust is yours. ?? Oh, my buddy got one of your pipes for his YFZ and it's sick too!!

[mmsoup]

What carb and size?
jetting?

Still think you have a leaker as well

What type of ignition is on the quad? Stock or PVL?

Just for future precaution, have you checked the impeller to make sure the water pump is intact? They have a tendency to melt when things get too hot

Don't get mad but kill switch?

Engine Grounds?

[Hetrick Racing]

Ok,
three things to start and run you have ,so you have to now check the control of those three things.
Start with the reeds(thats easy)
then check your flywheel(loose or if stock woodruff key M.I.A)just had a stock ignition quad sheer a woodruff yesterday--odd but hey.
are you getting fuel in the cylinder?(plug wet) you will answer 2 things with this if it is soaked then reeds would be my check.if it is dry then you may be getting fuel to the carb but not through it.clean carb
I didnt read every post so if I over lapped someone I apologize

[Hooligan]

I will have to double check what carb, I know it's a Keihin just not sure what size. Jetting (if I recall correctly) was 50P 128M.

I have no idea what ignition is on it, didn't even think to check yet...just been kicking the crap out of the kicker.

I will also check the impeller, and thought it may have something to do with grounding out, especially since I can pull the tether and it still takes a while to shut off.

I will also check the flywheel..and figure out what a woodruff key is?

Plug was wet, but I was hosing the carb down with starter fluid.

Thanks guys for some good leads for me to try! I feel like an idiot for knowing so little about these little quads lol

...good news is, I decided to scrap it last night and put my new piston in my own quad! ha ha :devil:

[mmsoup]

Woodruff Key is the tab on the Crank that forces the flywheel into proper timing. The stock flywheel is slotted and only fits on the crank in one spot.

PVL ignition is an inner rotor igniton that allows for less rotating mass and allows revs to build quicker, spark to fly earlier and is generally more stable at higher RPM's. No woodruff key used most of the time. Need a dial indicator to set the required advance for your cylinder/stroke.

The Kill switches tend to get corrosion on the leads inside and can be taken apart to be cleaned, have dielectric handy. Probably wouldn't be the cause of the current problem as it wouldn't stop as opposed to wouldn't start........

Try a 42 Pilot and keep the main at 128 1 1/2 turns out on the screw and then start moving the main jet in jumps in one direction only at a time to see if you can get it to fire and then ultimately to take tuning. I believe my 28mm Airstriker ships with a 38 Pilot though.

My daughters motor has always been sensitive to Pilot and will only start comfortably with either a 45 or 48 if the main is off. We are running a longish intake with a Haggaerty on a Malossi Big Bore set up and it requires larger jets than normal to account for the longer air intake. If the carb is directly on a KOSO style intake and the reeds are in the case 50 sounds awful fat to me.
I would almost counsel a 38 pilot then a 40

[Hooligan]

:( Man I've been f'ing busy..no time to check these out yet! Tonight I'm gonna try to get out in the garage and dig in to his quad.

For the reeds, what am I looking for (yeah, not too much experience with the 2 pokers)? Just for clogs or damage? I'm assuming if there is fuel on them and nothing apparently wrong looking they're OK.

Another buddy mentioned the flywheel key as well. I'm not sure if it slipped out of place, or was possibly sheered off...I will definitely be checking that tonight. Do I need a puller for this flywheel or is there anything abnormal I'm going to run in to getting to this? Is the woodruff key just like a typical circlip kind of deal? Hopefully I can figure it out as I rip it apart, but was hoping I could get a little insight beforehand.

Thanks! :cuss:

[Hooligan]

Guess the reeds and reed cage look Ok, never seen one's like this though with the bent out metal...
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k242/Lijepa888/1294254287.jpg
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k242/Lijepa888/1294254321.jpg

How do you get the magneto & flywheel off?? :eek: I didn't want to use my normal fix-all of a hammer..but I was close. :mad:
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k242/Lijepa888/1294254354.jpg

[mmsoup]

DON'T USE HAMMER :)

You need a flyweel puller (Yamaha)

You can order online from G-Force or Hotquads

I doubt that you have a stator out of time if it's stock. The woodruff key is the tit on the crank that fits into the slot on the flywheel to set the timing and by extension, it keeps the flywheel from slipping time

We use a PVL system that requires setting the advance on the spark and occasionally the flywheel can slip on the crank.

Looks like stock pipe, stock flywheel and stock cylinder, Any engraving on the side of the cylinder?

[Hooligan]

I'll check the side of the case tonight.

I was assuming the stator needs to come off to access the woodruff key, correct??

To be honest, I bought it used so I'm not sure what is stock and what isn't. I can only speculate about the things they guy who sold me this and the DRR said were on it. :uhoh: He said this one was all Hetrick and the DRR was done by g-force (unless I got that backwards). Most of the clutch tuning, suspension, slipper sprockets & clutch, etc. were already done.

[mmsoup]

pm sent