DS 450 E85 project underway....

[craigmacphee]

I just launched the start of my E85 project on my 09 DS450 XMX. Supposed to increase HP, drop engine temps, and is on $2.59 a gallon vs. my $24 a gallon race fuel. Will keep ya'll posted!

[fast rap]

there is alot of discussion on this, on the ds450hq site!!!

[ml450r]

I already did this to my honda, never Dyno'd anything. I can't feel it being any faster, definitely isn't slower. I think it runs cooler and is much cheaper.

Doesn't run very good until its warmed up also.

[cookltr78]

ml450r- If you didn't dyno it then you dont know what the fuel curve is. So, basically your bike is leaned out like crazy, which is why you didnt feel a power increase.

[ml450r]

It's definitely not leaned out, changed to an alcohol needle and up 2 sizes on pilot. Had a power jet(dial jet) installed into an fcr carb to adjust easily. I put it on a dyno when I first did it, I was having some ignition issues, so no good numbers were made. I would be able to tell if it were lean. I richened it until it fell on its face and backed it off.

btw, I'm not going to notice 1 hp riding it. This fuel isn't going to give you any more than 1hp over a $20 per gallon race fuel.

The idea is to use the cheaper fuel without losing performance...it does that.

[fast rap]

I would never run Ethanol in a carburetor just my opinion!!!

[blaster99]

I ran methanol in my blaster, and it worked well. We had some problems with an air leak at first, which led to it having a idle which was like 12,000 rpms.. then when you would pull the killswitch, nothing would happen, and it would keep screaming until you hit the gas, and it would bog out and shut off. Once we got that figured out it ran sweet! We had to get a new carb and a jet that was like twice as big as our original one.

[fast rap]

I never said it wouldn't run.. it's just not good for carbs builds up alot of gunk in the jetting's and carbs... ethanol absorbs water, not good when you store it or don't ride it for long periods of time!!!

[TNT]

Originally posted by ml450r
I already did this to my honda, never Dyno'd anything. I can't feel it being any faster, definitely isn't slower. I think it runs cooler and is much cheaper.

Doesn't run very good until its warmed up also.



Originally posted by ml450r
It's definitely not leaned out, changed to an alcohol needle and up 2 sizes on pilot. Had a power jet(dial jet) installed into an fcr carb to adjust easily. I put it on a dyno when I first did it, I was having some ignition issues, so no good numbers were made. I would be able to tell if it were lean. I richened it until it fell on its face and backed it off.

btw, I'm not going to notice 1 hp riding it. This fuel isn't going to give you any more than 1hp over a $20 per gallon race fuel.

The idea is to use the cheaper fuel without losing performance...it does that.

You can't compare the results of a carb motor to EFI, totally different....We have seen some convert the DS to E-85 w/power gains using a fuel controller/CAM timing/PC-5 + 02/etc..., IF you know what your doing. If you had tuned EFI it would not a take a warm up to run good.

[jlrenken]

what affects does the e85 have on the inturnals of the engine.

[ml450r]

Ethanol is like a solvent, make sure you run an upper end lube in it.

TNT, I am not saying it didn't make more power, I simply stated I am saving money on fuel and making the same, if not more power. It will make more power, it's alcohol. Methanol makes more power than regular gas. Obviously if you have the resources to tune it you will get more power out of it, and run cooler....which would help the DS.

[TNT]

There's a bunch of hype on the internet about fuel lines, bare aluminum and magnesium eroding from E-85, in the fuel system or parts that are in direct contact with E-85. I would not be too concerned about it since the hype doesn't mention when this is suppose to occur since it can't. The hype does not know how our fuel pump, regulator, injector, etc, are designed or chem. treated or what material alloy they are. Today's fuel systems in contact w/fuel/aluminum are chem. treated or etched for erosion. Rubber lines, who knows what the DS polymer is, but we have ran ours on E-85 for over two years no erosion. Also, humidly getting in the fuel, hype calls for draining after every run, etc, some say since it has a high water absorption rate I guess. Left ours outside last season in Charleston, SC in the south, 100 degree temps and humidity for 3-months, started right up, go figure!. I think a lot of the hype is from the auto industry after years and years of service, if you race and rebuild annually or sell out in less than five years there is little to worry about we have seen so far.

Here is the testimony below of a DS owner on HQ. He started with a mix of gas and E-85 and had a on-the fly-controller, had to tune the gas level up since it does require more, and depending on your air track mods if you are adding more air than stock may need a larger injector like green we run. He then went to straight E-85 with power gains as noted. Yes, the PC-5 w/02 sensor also makes good use of the added oxy in E-85. With that set-up or even stock DS there is no way a carb motor can run as close to stocimetric(14.7:1) or a tuned EFI MAP with a auto-tuner (automatic load trimmer) and benefit as much from E-85. Our starts hard too but runs great even cold, I am not sure ours hard starts from the big-bore need more CCA's. Once it starts the first time it fires up fast even hot starts.

"so now i got straight e-85 in my quad and the power on bottom all the way to top end is stronger than ever and runs awsome. i did notice it might start a bit harder only when engine is cold other than that thing runs great very nice improvement. fills like 2 or maybe 3 hp gain over straight gas. has anyone tried e-85 with pc-5 if so please reply thanks for input! "

STOP GIVING MONEY TO THE PETRO INDUSTRY RUN E-85 :cool:

[rrguy]

I am planing to round up a power commander with auto tune JSr racing has one along with some helpful experince. The ds450 just have not done it yet. JSR racing has run several different quads on it including the ds. With my little experience its about 30% percent richer an will produce more power. Higher compression an advance ignition will take more advantage of the fuel. I also add marvel mystery oil or an upper cylinder lube. alky burns slower so it continues to push the piston longer, also the reason you will feel a stronger pull from the motor.

Ran e85 with some lube additive in a z400 = Z440 modifed motor advanced ingnition high compression, could feel biggest gain in the low to mid range. the engine looked much cleaner than a z470 duncan motor I got running on race fuel.

2 strokes seem to gain the most off alky, often gaining up to 10 hp.


Yeah I wouldnt run it in the winter if you can't get your machine in a heated area alky does not evaporate as fast an when cold does not like to ignite as easy.

[fast rap]

I totally agree with Tnt.. cause I don't have a pc5 yet, I run 60% 110k and 40% e-70 give or take, and runs alot better than 91 oct, and so I don't run on the lean side...

with that being said, rrguy ethanol burns quicker thus runs leaner!!!

[TNT]

Originally posted by rrguy
I am planing to round up a power commander with auto tune JSr racing has one along with some helpful experince. The ds450 just have not done it yet. JSR racing has run several different quads on it including the ds. With my little experience its about 30% percent richer an will produce more power. Higher compression an advance ignition will take more advantage of the fuel. I also add marvel mystery oil or an upper cylinder lube. alky burns slower so it continues to push the piston longer, also the reason you will feel a stronger pull from the motor.

Ran e85 with some lube additive in a z400 = Z440 modifed motor advanced ingnition high compression, could feel biggest gain in the low to mid range. the engine looked much cleaner than a z470 duncan motor I got running on race fuel.

2 strokes seem to gain the most off alky, often gaining up to 10 hp.


Yeah I wouldnt run it in the winter if you can't get your machine in a heated area alky does not evaporate as fast an when cold does not like to ignite as easy.

As far as I know, tell me otherwise, the stock ECM has a variaible ignition timing that cannot be modified, it's based on sensor input. I have heard that some of the engine builder's can re-program the ECM to specs now, BRP is allowing this, whether that includes ignition timing I don't know. If you have adjustable cam gears one could change the valve overlap(intake/exhaust open/close), which is a good tunning feature for e-85, and there are some other tricks of the trade if you know what they are. We have noticed no difference running E-85 in cold or hot/humid weather with a properly tunned PC-5 auto tune. There is a ambient pressure and temp(barometric) sensor "AAPTS" in the air box combined w/MAP sensor that senses this and sends air voltage signals to the ECM for ignition timing/fuel delivery optimizing, that and 02/PC5 return loop.

We run no other internal lubes besides a synthetic oil for clutch wear like Motoplex and we sustain good engine wear. Internal engine wear should not be affected by the fuel system type or E-85 as far as I know or have seen, they are independant of one another. We ran the same lube on race gas and E-85 w/no change in wear or maintenance intervals.

Of course, if the ECM can be re-programmed there is no need for PC-5 or any other piggy back. If done properly one could really pull some EFI ponies out of any fuel, better w/a 02 ECM closed loop direct input.

[craigmacphee]

Just a little update. Working on getting it dialed in with E70.
1-1.5hp gain over our race fuel and haven't even began to dial it in yet. More to come this week.

From all of our research, TNT is exactly right. Lots and lots of hype over how corrosive it is but not much documentation backing it up.

[LTMFB]

So...do you NEED a PCIII and a tune to do this?

[rrguy]

Originally posted by fast rap
I totally agree with Tnt.. cause I don't have a pc5 yet, I run 60% 110k and 40% e-70 give or take, and runs alot better than 91 oct, and so I don't run on the lean side...

with that being said, rrguy ethanol burns quicker thus runs leaner!!!

Maybe your instructer can expalin it better.
Didnt mean to confuse the issue or term, of burn rate vs fuel economy or amount of fuel per hr etc...

Alky itself has a slower burnrate!!!!! any motor builder should know this it also evaporates slower etc... Example on power stroke a combustion chamber with pump gas will ignite an complete burn faster than a combustion chamber containing alky. Hope that makes sense sorry its just a fact

Now it is oxgenated containing oxygen so less fuel, that would be the reason I mention for a base map of 30% richer when running e85, strait alky about 40 percent to start off so yes you will go through a tank of alky faster non oxgenated fuel.

IMO you are running on the lean side, even if you are running 40 percent e-70 you are still running a leaner burning fuel, if you don't have a FMI or a programed ecm to richen up the fuel curve. you are running leaner than you would running with non oxgenated fuel.

[rrguy]

Originally posted by LTMFB
So...do you NEED a PCIII and a tune to do this?

ideally you should have some dyno time to get your base map set so if you have a good map matching all your mods increase about 30 % for e85

A pc 5 if you wanna run the auto tune. the auto tune has an o2 sensor which is installed in the headpipe, gives the feedback for auto adjustment .

[rrguy]

Originally posted by TNT
As far as I know, tell me otherwise, the stock ECM has a variaible ignition timing that cannot be modified, it's based on sensor input. I have heard that some of the engine builder's can re-program the ECM to specs now, BRP is allowing this, whether that includes ignition timing I don't know. If you have adjustable cam gears one could change the valve overlap(intake/exhaust open/close), which is a good tunning feature for e-85, and there are some other tricks of the trade if you know what they are. We have noticed no difference running E-85 in cold or hot/humid weather with a properly tunned PC-5 auto tune. There is a ambient pressure and temp(barometric) sensor "AAPTS" in the air box combined w/MAP sensor that senses this and sends air voltage signals to the ECM for ignition timing/fuel delivery optimizing, that and 02/PC5 return loop.

We run no other internal lubes besides a synthetic oil for clutch wear like Motoplex and we sustain good engine wear. Internal engine wear should not be affected by the fuel system type or E-85 as far as I know or have seen, they are independant of one another. We ran the same lube on race gas and E-85 w/no change in wear or maintenance intervals.

Of course, if the ECM can be re-programmed there is no need for PC-5 or any other piggy back. If done properly one could really pull some EFI ponies out of any fuel, better w/a 02 ECM closed loop direct input.

I would add lube to the fuel cause was told the e85 did not have the same lubricants as a quality race fuel? IDK never found info so played it safe.

Yeah was checking into the advancing the ignition, On some other machines I ran a dynateck or vortex easy to advance the ignition. IDK maybey the dasa ecm I have already is advanced some I would guess so.

[TNT]

Here again possible lube hype that doesn't apply to most out here except trail riders that don't want to rebuild their motor at least annually. We've been running E-85 on a competitive race quad without noticing increased time to rebuild the top end.

What we were able to do to make use of the E-85 slower burn rate is advance the cam timing to open the intake valve sooner without detoniation. Also allows for better exhaust gas scavaging. Opening the valve sooner allows for more fuel/air to enter the combustion chamber at a faster rate, not close too soon before the compression stroke is where you'll find more torque. So finding the right balance of cam grind, timing, overlap, fuel map, is key.

[florentino]

Originally posted by fast rap
I totally agree with Tnt.. cause I don't have a pc5 yet, I run 60% 110k and 40% e-70 give or take, and runs alot better than 91 oct, and so I don't run on the lean side...

with that being said, rrguy ethanol burns quicker thus runs leaner!!!

whats all the hype on fuel really. you got smoked by a stock ltr on regular gas.

[fast rap]

I LET YOU PASS ME BUDDY!!! LOL

[florentino]

well you whant to make things simple and start one at a time.
with all those cams and pistons and so.
some combos loose hps.
i just like the bolt on mods cause i know they work and thats all i need. to have a realiable motor. for mx is all i need.

just my 2 cents:devil:

[rrguy]

Originally posted by florentino
well you whant to make things simple and start one at a time.
with all those cams and pistons and so.
some combos loose hps.
i just like the bolt on mods cause i know they work and thats all i need. to have a realiable motor. for mx is all i need.

just my 2 cents:devil:

I hear yah, but how do you know what mods or combos work?

Its people who are willing to spend the time an cash to try different setups, an share the results. The mods may be free cheap expensive, reliable or otherwise. Its probably helping hundreds of others who read before they bolt on.

Here running fuel that cost $2 plus a gallon vs $7 an still produce more power may help tons of people an bust several myths.

[craigmacphee]

Not sure what race gas you were burning, but mine was $110 or so per 5 gallons. The E85 or E70 being cheaper and producing more power is just a double bonus. When it comes down to it, I really don't care what it costs as long as I can afford it and it runs good.

Not sure if the above question about dyno tuning and PCIII was directed to me or not, but yes I am running a PCIII, and it's getting tuned on a Dynojet dyno as different mods and experiments are tested together to see what will give the best results.

TNT...where did you get your injector(s) for your E85/70 mod?

[TNT]

We got our injector at the race dept couple years ago, next size up from stock green I think it is.

Skeptics could always take some bare AL soak it in E-85 and see how long it takes before it surface corrodes, the chem treated AL in the engine will last alot longer or try some CAD, etched, anodized, alkaline, passivated, pigmented, corrosion inhibited treated AL too, or try rubbing two peices of aluminum together with E-85 and 110 as a lube see the difference in friction heat build up.

[525outlawrider]

TNT , you say that you advanced the intake timing ... did you go 1 tooth or did you go custom and if so , how much did you advance ? we are planning to attempt this mod in the offseason .

[TNT]

Originally posted by 525outlawrider
TNT , you say that you advanced the intake timing ... did you go 1 tooth or did you go custom and if so , how much did you advance ? we are planning to attempt this mod in the offseason .

I don't recall sorry but we have a different configuration than you. Get some adjustable gears from BCS or someone and try different setting's on the dyno. That way you can dial in the power to your specific needs.

[jlrenken]

any new updates

[craigmacphee]

We switched to a bigger custom injector because the one we initially used was not big enough. It was running at 100% capacity well before it was supposed to. We got the new injector installed and are now running it at 60% duty cycle which is right on. We are waiting for the head to come back. We are installing titanium valves and some other mods, and are going to be freshening up the top end. The motor has about 15 hours on it (from this past racing season) and we figure we should do a few runs with a fresh motor to see exactly where we stand. I am heading riding with the family (dirt bikes) for the next 2 weeks down south so there will not be any further updates before then. I will keep ya'll posted. Craig

[TNT]

Let us know how the ti valves do next update. I thought the seat design would make them unreliable? Who makes them? They should make this quad rip!

[525outlawrider]

we have the exceledyne Titanium valves in our motor, we used the stock springs and keepers/ retainers (exceledyne said to re-use them ) we have about 20 hours on it and are about to tear it down to "freshen it up" as well as to ck the valves and retainer combo.
exceledyne now states that "we do not suggest the use of titanium valves in the ds " when I ask why .... iget the same response... things that make you go HMMM?

[fast rap]

Originally posted by 525outlawrider
we have the exceledyne Titanium valves in our motor, we used the stock springs and keepers/ retainers (exceledyne said to re-use them ) we have about 20 hours on it and are about to tear it down to "freshen it up" as well as to ck the valves and retainer combo.
exceledyne now states that "we do not suggest the use of titanium valves in the ds " when I ask why .... iget the same response... things that make you go HMMM?


hmm!!!

[TNT]

Hmmm should produce an immediate weight reduction of at least 40%. The low modulus of titanium is beneficial for springs, but component redesign may be necessary in stiffness limited applications. Specific strength, and likewise specific toughness and fatigue limits of titanium compare very favourably to both steel and aluminium alloys.

Take note of how much seat fatigue wear you have? If ok keep running them recheck after 20 please let us know. How much power gains would be interesting :D

[nate450x]

Just wanting to know if there are any updates?

The reason I am asking is because I recently got sponsored by ROSSIER ENGINEERING. He has my motor and it is going to be running E85 also so I didn't know if you have had any success with your ti. valves. I can't wait to get my motor back and from what I have read on here you love how yours runs and I know that if ROSSIER is doing my motor I am going to be very satisfied!!

Hope to see some updates soon!

[525outlawrider]

After extensive research ....
We are giving up on Ti- valves
If I could purchase them with single row Keepers I would feel different.
I like the new Webb Valve springs
and would like to use them and i do not see them working with the Ti valves

[TNT]

Let’s see if I can explain & break it down to simpler layman terms,

The tip of the stock valve Exceledyne(CV4) copied has three machine(NC lathed) in grooves that a “keeper(or cotter)” nests into to basically hold the spring and valve together. The keeper is made of steel and over twice the density of Ti so it creates some hard points on the Ti valve, coupled with a loose fit that in short time can break the tip off and “drop” a valve in the motor. BCS redesigned the stock Ti valve to a single machined groove and keeper reducing the grooves to a single one cutting the hard points and chance of failure by 2/3 in my mind. The BCS design still has a single row steel keeper up against a Ti valve and a risk compared to steel against steel stock design, but BCS claims to have tested to 50 hrs no failures. Some that have dynoed the ti valve claim there is little to be gained in power by them, but we all know how dyno results are.

It only makes sense that if you reduce the weight of valves by over 40% using Ti vs steel there has to be less load on the valve train and wear, but the question at what risk to dropping valves and what is the real tested power or torque gain? Now if you’re a pro willing to pay a high price per hp and have these replaced for free every race or two and have the budget no biggie, but for most not the case.

It would be interesting for a companies like Rossier, BCS, MW's, etc, to publish much more data, dyno results and hours to failure to better or worsen the risk associated to running them. In my humble opinion, if one could use Ti keepers and all Ti in the design the risk is reduced further and/or BCS also uses copper beryllium seats which keep the valves wearing better. So the two big factors design wise are geometry and mating materials, production - maching tolerances and cost. Ti has favorable strength-to-weight compared to steel, but does not wear that great up against hard steel. You can also alloy steel and ti to closer rockwell hardness numbers.

So I agree with Exceledyne and 525outlawrider to not use their design, BCS has a better one, but proceed at your own risk. I think there is some power to be gained ti valves have proven in many motors, the rotax has to better the reliability of through more testing. I think BCS is on the right track and would recommend them to anyone wanting to try this.

I know we got a little off topic but Graig started it....lol...:D

[craigmacphee]

Nate....the next time you talk to Charlie, mention this "project" to him and that you have heard is going on with my quad. I think you will be amazed at what his response is! :) He is currently doing an all out, no holds barred build on my quad. My buddies don't even know what they got coming their way! lol

[TNT]

Sounds like you and Rossier have started a E85 Anonymous Club, E85A…..Better than AA eh…..lol! You should ask him to do another on-line dyno build stage report on your quad like he did back in 08 showing results from E-85 vs. other fuels and ti valves, etc….

I think it’s great more ppl are hopping on the E85A wagon saving $, it can be addicting :muscle: :macho

[craigmacphee]

I will post everything online as soon as we have everything straightened out. Also, believe me, I am not doing the e85 to save money. The VP mrx01 I was buying is the least of my racing habits cost....LOL I'm going for more HP period!!! :)

[jlrenken]

hey TNT would u pm me your phone number i hav some questions on your e85 setup.
thanks
jamie

[TNT]

JSR Performance(goggle John) or Kyle Roby 316-648-3509 our current motor and dyno man both combined can compete with any builder. Tell them Terry & Trever's father TNT sent you for details on E85, they were the first, dirt mikes, quads, etc......send them your motors they get them from all over the world.

I'm a consultant Engineer and mechanic and help them develop the technology, but I was not there to do the actuals. I can talk alot of theory with you, but if you want hands on ATV experience not theory and over 20 years mechanic experience contact them.

[jlrenken]

any new updates with your conversion craigmacphee

[rrguy]

If running a steel keeper the titanium valve should have a harden coating or steel insert. I don't understand how 1 deep groove on a 0.2342 stem has less chance of breaking than when the same load is divided up on 3 shallower grooves? The stem diameter has been reduced even more with 1 deep groove?

My layman terms lol. Valves are like women allot of people want the lighter ones that are one size up on top but forget the need more attention! Valves can be a disaster when not properly installed with matching components that includes the seat material an cut. Which is when titanium alloys get your real advantage of reliabilty an lighter components (retainer etc) allowing lower spring tension = A lighter valve train with less drag/friction.

The issue with floating valves after the rev limit was raised on some of race DS450 motors, I see how a lighter valve could resolve.



Originally posted by TNT
Let’s see if I can explain & break it down to simpler layman terms,

The tip of the stock valve Exceledyne(CV4) copied has three machine(NC lathed) in grooves that a “keeper(or cotter)” nests into to basically hold the spring and valve together. The keeper is made of steel and over twice the density of Ti so it creates some hard points on the Ti valve, coupled with a loose fit that in short time can break the tip off and “drop” a valve in the motor. BCS redesigned the stock Ti valve to a single machined groove and keeper reducing the grooves to a single one cutting the hard points and chance of failure by 2/3 in my mind. The BCS design still has a single row steel keeper up against a Ti valve and a risk compared to steel against steel stock design, but BCS claims to have tested to 50 hrs no failures. Some that have dynoed the ti valve claim there is little to be gained in power by them, but we all know how dyno results are.

It only makes sense that if you reduce the weight of valves by over 40% using Ti vs steel there has to be less load on the valve train and wear, but the question at what risk to dropping valves and what is the real tested power or torque gain? Now if you’re a pro willing to pay a high price per hp and have these replaced for free every race or two and have the budget no biggie, but for most not the case.

It would be interesting for a companies like Rossier, BCS, MW's, etc, to publish much more data, dyno results and hours to failure to better or worsen the risk associated to running them. In my humble opinion, if one could use Ti keepers and all Ti in the design the risk is reduced further and/or BCS also uses copper beryllium seats which keep the valves wearing better. So the two big factors design wise are geometry and mating materials, production - maching tolerances and cost. Ti has favorable strength-to-weight compared to steel, but does not wear that great up against hard steel. You can also alloy steel and ti to closer rockwell hardness numbers.

So I agree with Exceledyne and 525outlawrider to not use their design, BCS has a better one, but proceed at your own risk. I think there is some power to be gained ti valves have proven in many motors, the rotax has to better the reliability of through more testing. I think BCS is on the right track and would recommend them to anyone wanting to try this.

I know we got a little off topic but Graig started it....lol...:D

[rrguy]

Originally posted by craigmacphee
We switched to a bigger custom injector because the one we initially used was not big enough. It was running at 100% capacity well before it was supposed to. We got the new injector installed and are now running it at 60% duty cycle which is right on. We are waiting for the head to come back. We are installing titanium valves and some other mods, and are going to be freshening up the top end. The motor has about 15 hours on it (from this past racing season) and we figure we should do a few runs with a fresh motor to see exactly where we stand. I am heading riding with the family (dirt bikes) for the next 2 weeks down south so there will not be any further updates before then. I will keep ya'll posted. Craig

If there is a chance you could help me purchase one, either through you or part number an contact. That would be appreiciated.
I was going to buy the red but prefer if your knowledge could save me a little time an $

Thanks
Greg

[craigmacphee]

Just made it back on after a long hiatus. Anyway, the system is working great so far. The power is definitely there when I need it and the motor seems to be running cooler. I have only ran about 9 gallons of e85 through my machine this summer/fall due to an enormous work load. I had a small issue with my cam chain tensioner but got it worked out within days of getting the new updated version. Charlie Rossier hit the nail right on the head with this package. www.rossiereng.com