450R axle in a 250R carrier?

[JoePA]

I'm curious if a 450R axle will work in a 250R carrier? I have a G Force axle from a 450R and curious if will work.

On another note. Will a 450R carrier work in a 250R swingarm?

[Derrick Adams]

The axles have different sprocket locations so your chain won't line up. 400EX works though.

[JoePA]

So If i order a 400ex axle that will work in a 250R housing?

The reason I ask is I did the 450R swingarm swap wiht an extended axle and it works fine but I have a laeger -1 swingarm and I want to run that instead.

I'll do some swaping to see but if not then I knwo a 400ex axle is an option.

[smoke tractor1]

A 250r and a 400ex carrier are the same a 450 is narrower,the 450 axle is narrower from sprocket hub to the retainer clip groove,if I'm making any sense!Even some of the aftermarket axles that come with hubs read 250r-400ex on them!400and450 hubs are splined same (easily available!)250r's are SPECIAL!and hard to find with good splines left!

[Derrick Adams]

Originally posted by JoePA
So If i order a 400ex axle that will work in a 250R housing?

The reason I ask is I did the 450R swingarm swap wiht an extended axle and it works fine but I have a laeger -1 swingarm and I want to run that instead.

I'll do some swaping to see but if not then I knwo a 400ex axle is an option.

Are you saying you have a 450R axle in your 250R right now, or you just put the swinger on and haven't tryed the axle yet?

[smoke tractor1]

YES! A 400ex axle WILL work in a 250r carrier,because the carriers are the same.A 250r axle will work in a 400ex carrier,because the carriers are the same.You are on the right track!

[JoePA]

Derrick,
I have a 450r swingarm, carrier and axle right now. It works fine but I picked up a laeger -1 swingarm and want to see how it works compared to the 450r swinger. I was hoping I could get out of purchasing another axle but glad the 400EX one works.

Smoke,
I just need to use the 450R hubs on the 400ex axle...correct?

Sorry about the questions but don't want to throw down a few hundred on anaxle and have it not fit!

[Rich250RRacer]

Originally posted by JoePA
Derrick,
I have a 450r swingarm, carrier and axle right now. It works fine but I picked up a laeger -1 swingarm and want to see how it works compared to the 450r swinger. I was hoping I could get out of purchasing another axle but glad the 400EX one works.

Smoke,
I just need to use the 450R hubs on the 400ex axle...correct?

Sorry about the questions but don't want to throw down a few hundred on anaxle and have it not fit!

First off, even using the complete 450R rear end will cause chain alignment issues. I would stop right here.

[Derrick Adams]

The 450R hubs will fit right on a 400EX axle.

If your running the 450R axle now you should have serious chain alignment issues. If you stand at the back of your bike and look up the chain you should see it. It should be about 1/2" off. While it may still work it's putting a serious amount of side load on your chain and sprockets. With the 250R having such bad luck with breaking cases from thrown chains I would definately try to avoid running it like that. You'll also see increased chain and sprocket wear from that set-up.

Now that you understand that, the 400EX axle is your ticket. It will fit in both your 250R Laeger -1 swingarm and your stock 450R swingarm. It will work with either carrier and it will provide you with the correct chain alignment with either type swigarm.

[smoke tractor1]

Correct!

[JoePA]

Ok...this is my current setup

86 250r with an 05 450R swingarm, 450R carrier and 450R axle. The alignment is perfect.


The setup I'm going to run

86 250R laeger -1 swingarm, 250R carrier and 400ex axle.

I measured the width between the 450R carrier and a 250R carrier and the 250R carrier is wider. So I don't think the 450R carrier will work in a 250R swingarm.

[Rich250RRacer]

Originally posted by Derrick Adams
The 450R hubs will fit right on a 400EX axle.

Now that you understand that, the 400EX axle is your ticket. It will fit in both your 250R Laeger -1 swingarm and your stock 450R swingarm. It will work with either carrier and it will provide you with the correct chain alignment with either type swigarm.

Not even close. The axle would fit in terms of diameter, but the 400axle will protrude too far out the disc side of the carrier. You would never be able to tighten the nut, since it wouldn't seat against the clip. The entire 450 carrier is narrower than a 250R/400EX, so is the rear carrier section of the 450 swing arm, which creates chain alignment issues. There is no way to get the correct chain alignment with the 450R carrier/swingarm.

[Rich250RRacer]

Originally posted by JoePA
Ok...this is my current setup

86 250r with an 05 450R swingarm, 450R carrier and 450R axle. The alignment is perfect.


That is physically impossible, the narrower width of the the rear section of the swingarm and carrier moves the sprocket closer to the centerline of the quad.

[Derrick Adams]

Man I have to tell you.. I have done this swap and it sure looks right to me. 250R axle tightened up fine in the 450R carrier. Chain looks right to me too. I wont argue with you over it, because you may have calculated something I didnt. What do you think? The only variance I see is that I used the 250R axle on this build. Is the clip location further out on the 400EX?

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l34/Derrick_Adams/85r-4-1.jpg

[Rich250RRacer]

Originally posted by Derrick Adams
Man I have to tell you.. I have done this swap and it sure looks right to me. 250R axle tightened up fine in the 450R carrier. Chain looks right to me too. I wont argue with you over it, because you may have calculated something I didnt. What do you think? The only variance I see is that I used the 250R axle on this build. Is the clip location further out on the 400EX?

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l34/Derrick_Adams/85r-4-1.jpg

Looks right. I'm going to do some measuring and comparing when I get home. I'll try to post pics.

[JoePA]

Derrick,
What pegs are you using? YFZ' 450R???? They look great!



Yeah the setup works fine. I've been hitting our local track pretty hard and haven't had an issue with chain alignment

[Rich250RRacer]

OK I did alot of measuring and took some pics. I think we'll all be able to find this info useful. These pics are of a 450R swinger and a stock 86 swinger. A 450R carrier and an 86 carrier. And a 450R axle and a Durablue 250R axle. Derrick, I believe your chain alignment is correct, or very close, because you used the 250R axle (this wouldn't be true with a 450 axle and I try to explain why), but being the perfectionist I am, I believe your quad is roughly 1/8 to 1/4" wider to the right side. Probably not at all noticeable, but there is a difference.


The first two pics show the difference in width of the rear carrier holder area of the swingers.

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee108/rich250rracer/PB240230.jpg

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee108/rich250rracer/PB240231.jpg

Now this is where it gets interesting. The swingarms are indentical width at the front, not including the protrusions for the steel end cap and seal. Using a framing square off the front left bearing tube, you can see the 450 swinger will allow the left side of the carrier to be closer to the center line of the quad, which should move the sprocket closer to centerline also, causing misalignment.

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee108/rich250rracer/PB240233.jpg

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee108/rich250rracer/PB240232.jpg

Now this next pic should show why Derrick's is chain alignment is close, and how using the 450 axle would cause major alignment issues. Notice the difference in distance between the portion of the sprocket hub that pulls up tight to the bearing race and the position on the sprocket mount between the two axles. Because of the fluted design on the 250R hub, the sprocket is sitting farther away from the center line. The 450 hub is closer to the center line, which would move the sprocket in also. Just keep in mind that even with the 250R axle, that sprocket hub is still closer to the center with the 450 swinger compared to the 250R arm.

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee108/rich250rracer/PB240240.jpg

The next pic shows the difference in width of the carriers and one pic of the 450 swinger with the 250R carrier installed. Notice how the 250R carrier protrudes out the disc side of the swinger.

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee108/rich250rracer/PB240235.jpg

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee108/rich250rracer/PB240234.jpg

Now are the pics of the difference in the axles. This is where I can't figure out how Derrick made it work. I have done the 450R rear brake conversion, so I know there isn't a difference in the length of the disc hub to make up the difference, so how does he not run out of threadson the nut. There's 3/8" difference between the clip position on the two axles, with the 250R being farther out.

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee108/rich250rracer/PB240239.jpg

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee108/rich250rracer/PB240237.jpg


Again, while it's probably not noticable, since the axle is pulled in farther with the 450R swinger, there should be more length on the right side which tells me it's slightly wider on that side.

Or maybe I just have too much time on my hands. :D

[Derrick Adams]

Does the left bearing set out 1/8" further in the 450R carrier than the 250R? That would be real close to the difference in swingarm offset and explain the axle tightening up. I think?

I'm getting ready to do this swap again to another trike so i'll try to get some detailed pics this time.

Those pegs are actually Predator 500 pegs that I made adapters for to use on my R. I'm 6'4" so I lowered the pegs to gain some comfort on the bike. But I wouldn't recommend those to anyone else because they do hang down below the frame a little. We do make 450R peg adapters that locate them better though.

[JoePA]

Derrick,
I'll take a set of those adapter for the 450R pegs!! I just happen to have a set of 450R in the garage!

I'll take pics of my swingarm nd show you the setup using a 450R axle. It sure appears to be on there straight but then again I'm using my calibrated eyeball!!!


Joe

[Rich250RRacer]

Originally posted by Derrick Adams
Does the left bearing set out 1/8" further in the 450R carrier than the 250R? That would be real close to the difference in swingarm offset and explain the axle tightening up. I think?

I'm getting ready to do this swap again to another trike so i'll try to get some detailed pics this time.

Those pegs are actually Predator 500 pegs that I made adapters for to use on my R. I'm 6'4" so I lowered the pegs to gain some comfort on the bike. But I wouldn't recommend those to anyone else because they do hang down below the frame a little. We do make 450R peg adapters that locate them better though.

Good point, I'll do some more measuring after turkey day.

[Rich250RRacer]

Originally posted by JoePA
Derrick,
I'll take a set of those adapter for the 450R pegs!! I just happen to have a set of 450R in the garage!

I'll take pics of my swingarm nd show you the setup using a 450R axle. It sure appears to be on there straight but then again I'm using my calibrated eyeball!!!


Joe

Joe, try to use a square off of the front sprocket. That should give you a good reference point.