450er no spark when using elec. start

[mhewitt]

new battery, new starter, new solenoid, new plug, motor turns over plenty fast, doesnt get spark at the plug when using the starter. but bike starts fine n runs fine when push started. ive called local atv shop and they've never heard of this problem nor did they have any suggestions to fix it. what exactly is responsible for creating the spark for the engine to start?

[HondaRaceReady]

I'll explain how an AC capacitor discharge ignition (AC-CDI) system works. Magnets on the flywheel move the available electrons of the excitor winding of the stator and charges the capacitor in the CDI box. When the reluctor on the flywheel moves by the pulser coil it sends electricity to the CDI box and the zener diode inside closes a path to ground for the capacitor, allowing the capacitor to send its power to the ignition coil primary side. Mutual induction steps up the voltage to around 50,000 volts and powers the spark plug.

[Scro]

I would try a new CDI, or borrow one from a friend if you can, to see if that is the problem.

[DnB_racing]

if the cdi checks out then you have a wiring issue!!! have you done any wire mods ?

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by mhewitt
new battery, new starter, new solenoid, new plug, motor turns over plenty fast, doesnt get spark at the plug when using the starter. but bike starts fine n runs fine when push started. ive called local atv shop and they've never heard of this problem nor did they have any suggestions to fix it. what exactly is responsible for creating the spark for the engine to start? is this still the same problem from mid summer?
are you absoluty sure your not getting spark? I hate to say this but make sure its not, you might have to take the shock to make sure! put a philips screw driver in the cap and grab it as your turning it over,you will definatly find out!!!

[HondaRaceReady]

is this still the same problem from mid summer?
are you absoluty sure your not getting spark? I hate to say this but make sure its not, you might have to take the shock to make sure! put a philips screw driver in the cap and grab it as your turning it over,you will definatly find out!!!

Or you could just take the spark plug out of the cylinder head, put it in the spark plug cap, and put the electrode on a good ground while cranking the engine to see if it has spark. Unless you want to feel 50,000 volts like DnB_racing. If it starts when you roll start it though it has spark. I would dynamically test the low rpm exiter winding if I were you though. If it doesnt output the minimum voltage check it for an open or insulation breakdown. That could cause an intermittant spark problem like you have.

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by HondaRaceReady
Or you could just take the spark plug out of the cylinder head, put it in the spark plug cap, and put the electrode on a good ground while cranking the engine to see if it has spark. Unless you want to feel 50,000 volts like DnB_racing. If it starts when you roll start it though it has spark. I would dynamically test the low rpm exiter winding if I were you though. If it doesnt output the minimum voltage check it for an open or insulation breakdown. That could cause an intermittant spark problem like you have. lol ya I know this sounds extreme!! but I believe from his other posts from summer that he already tried the screw driver to ground and couldn't see the spark, there might be very high voltage, but there are no amps and it wont cause any harm just a shock!!!

[dran714]

could be the little switch up on the thumb throttle has to be closed to start so you cant throttle while starting...

[wckedclownz69]

if you put a new starter on... check your grounds...did it randomly start not working... check for wires that might have rubbed and are grounding out ...check for loose ones too..

[moyer450r]

i have an 07 450er and my dad put the jumper cables on wrong. and ever since then its like not getting power. and its not the celoniod or any of the fuses. i could use suggestions!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TheLane]

its your flux capacitor.

[moyer450r]

where is that? i was thinkin it was the cdi

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by moyer450r
where is that? i was thinkin it was the cdi ya good chance its your cdi

dont listen to THELAME hes being as witty as a 10 year old can be

[moyer450r]

yea and they are pretty exspensive and i dont want to buy one until i know that is the problem. is there anything else it could be?

[DnB_racing]

ya actually if he reversed the leads it could be other issues are you sure about the fuse???? that should have poped first

also it could have ruined your battery

if the leads were hooked up and the key was still off about the only thing it could be is the cdi or reg/rec

[moyer450r]

the battery is fine. there was a bad fuse but i changed it and that wasnt the problem.

[DnB_racing]

start your own thread and ask this way your not highjacking someone elses thread

[moyer450r]

idk how to do that. haha. i just joined

[DnB_racing]

no problem welcome to the forum!! dont let inmature people stop you from asking any questions!!!!

at the top of the 450 section the button that says new thread then just ask away

[moyer450r]

k thanks

[dran714]

hey moyer its spelled solenoid not celeniod...!

[mhewitt]

sorry for no response, computer was down n i finally got a new one. definitely has no spark when using elec start, but if you pull start it @ about 20-25mph it will start and then runs n idles fine until turned off again. atv has been doing this ever since i bought it used about 8 months ago. hoping to get a weekend off real soon to pull it back in the shop to test some more stuff with my multimeter. all suggestions r greatly appreciated

[mhewitt]

is there a check list for the low rpm exciter?

[mhewitt]

i used the manual to check things out with voltmeter and the voltage was not present to the plug coming from the stator, could have to replace stator or it could still be the starter clutch slipping some... just enough to not turn motor over fast enough to create the correct voltage? when turning it over the exhaust gurgles about 3 times per second when counting "one-thousand one" that seems too slow doesnt it?

[DnB_racing]

that does seam kind slow turn over,use a set of jumper cables and hook up to a car battery, to be sure you have good cranking power

[mhewitt]

I had a new battery and it was on the battery charger set to 12v 15amp, even tried it on 125amp engine start once but still didn't start, I wouldn't think the stator was bad considering once u pull start it will run fine but I really don't know. I just need to know what to buy to get it back runnin

[DnB_racing]

do you hear any strange noise from the starter clutch at all!! if its slipping a little it might be your problem, that's what mine did.
just like your saying ran fine after bump start, but just wouldn't start with key!! but my starter clutch was making a slight noise.

[fastredrider44]

Sounds like a wiring issue to me. Also, jumping fourwheelers with that many amps will fry the recitifier.

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by fastredrider44
Sounds like a wiring issue to me. Also, jumping fourwheelers with that many amps will fry the recitifier. are you sure? I was always under the impression that booster chargers were acting like a larger cranking amps per hour, basically like putting a big battery on it? and amperage is there to be drawn upon so if the starter only draws 60 amp hours its not going to draw any more?unless there was a dead short I dont belive that you could possibly draw enough to do any damage,

if Im wrong please let me know so I dont give any wrong advise!!obviously aside from blowing up the battery if left on for any length of time!!

[fastredrider44]

As far as I can tell from previous experiences, jumping a fourwheeler from a car battery or something won't hurt the battery, but it will mess the recitifier up and the fourwheeler won't charge the battery correctly. I don't think a jump box can put that much out though.

[mhewitt]

No abnormal noises just sounds like a starter, does anyone have a pic of what a 450r stator should look like? Couldn't find any on google

[fastredrider44]

You won't be able to look at a stator and know if it's good or not. If it will roll start but not fire from the button, I don't think it is the stator.

[mhewitt]

Reason I was asking was because I already had it out and two of the coils on the stator r bigger than the rest and they r a dark brown color didn't know if it was normal or if that was a sign of failure,

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by mhewitt
Reason I was asking was because I already had it out and two of the coils on the stator r bigger than the rest and they r a dark brown color didn't know if it was normal or if that was a sign of failure, NORMAL !!!!look

[mhewitt]

the two big brown ones also have little bubbles in the sealer that is poured on the coils and those spots look darker than the rest istat also normal? i have pic of it on my phone but dont know how to get it from my phone to up here

[quad71]

Just asking have you checked your valves and the decompresion setting. sounds like a bad cdi. back in my 400ex days i bought a racing cdi for it and it would not start when it was cold. But could pull start or replace stock cdi and start and warm up then change cdi back. I know not exactly same problem but find someone that will let you swap out cdi.

[mhewitt]

yeah valves and decomp have been checked and are in spec, where i live there arent many sport quads everyone has 4x4's. would a 400 ex one work for mine cuz i think i might b able to borrow one of those from a friend

[fastredrider44]

No. You will need an ER cdi if you are going to try that route.

[mhewitt]

I don't think its cdi cause I wasn't getting voltage from the stator to the cdi so it can't b the issue. It is either a bad stator/pulse generator or a slipping starter clutch, just don't know which one to buy n try first

[fastredrider44]

Originally posted by mhewitt
I don't think its cdi cause I wasn't getting voltage from the stator to the cdi so it can't b the issue. It is either a bad stator/pulse generator or a slipping starter clutch, just don't know which one to buy n try first

I believe you just answered your own question. Would a slipping starter clutch cause it not to spark? I'd rob someone's stator you know to be good and swap them out and see what gives. :blah:

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by mhewitt
I don't think its cdi cause I wasn't getting voltage from the stator to the cdi so it can't b the issue. It is either a bad stator/pulse generator or a slipping starter clutch, just don't know which one to buy n try first I agree with fastredrider, if your getting NO spark then its not your starter clutch, however if your spark is so weak the it still could be your starter clutch!! if your rpms are very low then your spark will be very weak!and if to slow you will get no spark, Im not sure how many rpms for the stator to produce enough spark to start???but I would think you would need at least 1000 rpms for a minimum spark,you should be able to tell by the sound of your motor if your turning over to slow, if to slow you would have no spark.

[fastredrider44]

Good point. Out of curiosity though, doesn't a starter clutch on it's way out usually make some racket?

[Scro]

Originally posted by fastredrider44
Good point. Out of curiosity though, doesn't a starter clutch on it's way out usually make some racket?

It doesn't make any racket from my experiences. When one is going out, it will occasionally not engage when the motor is cold. The starter will just spin and not spin the motor. When the motor is hot, it won't do this as much because the metal is expanded. It will eventually get to where it does it whether it's hot or cold. From what I've seen, they usually start going downhill quick after they start slipping when it's cold.

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by fastredrider44
Good point. Out of curiosity though, doesn't a starter clutch on it's way out usually make some racket? they can act just like your regular clutch, they can start slipping and still turn the motor over, just much slower,
but they do sometimes make noises when the oneway bearings are loose enough that they move around

[mhewitt]

Manual says it idles @ 1700rpm so I'm guessing if it rotates much slower than half that speed it prolly won't produce enough spark to continue running and just judging by as slow as mine sounds like its turning over (about 3 exhaust gurgles per second.) I'm thinkin the spark is too weak to start it. I found a guy n my area with an r with blown motor so now its just up to him whether or not he will let me try his stator to rule that out. If it is the starter clutch slipping just a bit, has anyone ever tried taking the cheaper route n just tried replacing the clutch disc assembly on the starter clutch gear instead of buying all new gears? They r only $65 through honda

[fastredrider44]

Originally posted by mhewitt
If it is the starter clutch slipping just a bit, has anyone ever tried taking the cheaper route n just tried replacing the clutch disc assembly on the starter clutch gear instead of buying all new gears? They r only $65 through honda

The first time it gets repaired, you can usually get away with just replacing the one way bearing. After that, you have to get a little more serious with it.

[mhewitt]

if one of the coils on the stator is black in color does that mean that it could be a problem, i know with most other electronics when u see a black spot it is where it got too hot and has malfunctioned. didnt see the black place until i unbolted the stator from the case and took it all the way out, maybe with one coil not working it cant produce a strong enough spark to make it start but once its spinning faster as in pull starting, it makes just enough to make it run fine?

[mhewitt]

if anyone is willing to pm me there phone number i will send them the pics of my stator to see what they think

[DnB_racing]

unless its an obvious burnt and crispy then you really cant tell by looking

[fearlessfred]

Originally posted by dran714
could be the little switch up on the thumb throttle has to be closed to start so you cant throttle while starting...
?????????????? http://www.trx450r.org/forum/93-engine/178971-troubleshooting.html

[mhewitt]

the safety switches were one of the first things i checked and they r good, if one is out of adjustment or bad it wouldnt run even when u pull start because it cuts out ignition completely, this black spot sems pretty bad its to the point that it has almost convinced me that it is the problem instead of the starter clutch.

[DnB_racing]

Im sure you did all the stator checks, but I have to ask,
did you follow the manual for troubleshooting the stator?? on page 22-7CONNECTIONS:
High: Black/red terminal (+) - White terminal (-)
Low: Blue terminal (+) - White terminal (-)
Shift the transmission into neutral.
Crank the engine with starter motor (TRX450ER) or
kickstarter (TRX450R) and read the exciter coil peak
voltage. high should be around 45 and low arourd 15 volts

[DnB_racing]

how are your electrical skills??
with a good multi meter with a min/max hold like a fluke meter has, and the manual!!! you can go right through the whole electrical system and eliminate any possible symptoms

[mhewitt]

i actually work for an electrician, have for the past seven years lol. so i know my way around a multimeter. i did all those checks and on the high side it was good but on the low side there was nothing. think it was actually 0.1 but that still wouldnt rule out that the clutch couldve been slipping to not create the spark that was needed to start. http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb339/Matthew_Hewitt/utf-8BSU1HMDAzOTEtMjAxMTAxMTQtMTQxNC5qcGc.jpg

http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb339/Matthew_Hewitt/utf-8BSU1HMDAzOTMtMjAxMTAxMTQtMTQxNC5qcGc.jpg

[DnB_racing]

ya that pic doesn't look real good!! what are you getting for resistance readings through your windings??
read between all 3 yellows the resistance should all be the same between all 3...
then read between white and blue... and then the same white and black/ red and those readings should be the same,

im not sure of how much resisance those windings should have but I will check mine monday if you need me to

[mhewitt]

ok thanks for all the help, i will check mine tomorrow afternoon and let u know what the results are

[mhewitt]

.5 between yellows, 7.3 on blue, 174 on black

[DnB_racing]

that doesn't seam right!!

the white to the blue should have less resistance then the white to blk/r....

the blue to white is only half the coil, while the black to white is the whole coil and as such should have the higher resistance....

but I will do a reading on mine tomorrow and see what I get!!

[mhewitt]

The white, blue, black were all in a row on one plug and the 3 yellows were on another plug, is that correct? Making sure I didn't check the wrong wire

[DnB_racing]

yep all the yellows should have equal resistance between any of them, and the white is the common and the blue is low and the black is high!

the reading for yellows (stator)seams fine but the feild windings for the duel voltage seams a little suspect!!