450r carb.

[bherriman]

Anyone out there running a 450r carb and not using an adaptor? I would like to keep the airbox in the stock location. I don't really want to buy an adaptor from somebody, and I don't have the means to make one. Post some pics if you got 'em.

[trailrider894]

I would really try reading through the stickies, because i read something in there about this exact thing in one of them.

[bherriman]

I did look through the stickies, they are all either using an adaptor or not running an air box from what I saw.

[trailrider894]

Hmmm... I wish i could get my hands on the setup. I am sure there is something a red-neck could figure out. Duct tape.... etc. lol Good luck

[pmg8134]

not running an adapter and feeling great response.. used a Dremel honed it out to fit without adapter. i know everybody says it`s going to confuse airflow or slip off but.. running it awhile and loving it....

[pmg8134]

.... you can do alot with a heat gun.. stock airbox still in original location

[bherriman]

I can make the boot fit on the carb just fine, but it moves the airbox to far forward to use any of the three mouting points. If you have some pics of your carb connecting to the motor and air box side that would be awesome. I have the carb pushed all the way into the motor side and when i put the airbox on its probably a good 1/2" to 3/4" too far forward and it also puts the snorkel in a bind.

[honda400ex2003]

I have seen where people just move the box up to get it to work easier. I took the side notches off of my box anyway, even with the adaptor on it. people just make a plate to move it forward. I have been thinking about trying to make a few adaptors but i havent had any time yet. i want to do them out of pvc if i can get the correct diameter easy. steve

[bherriman]

Yea I've got it working good with the box moved up, I just wanted to keep the box in the stock location so the snorkle isn't in a bind or anything. Also can you just fill the hot start up with silicon or do you need the plunger.

[Thumpin440ex]

My air box is in the stock location. All I did was use a dremel tool and CAREFULLY removed the areas in the intake and intake boot, so it would fit in there. Works like a dream and fits perfect... It isn't hard just tedious.. As far as the plunger goes I have read guys having success with just filling them in, but I played it safe and used the plunger and rtv..


John

[bherriman]

Originally posted by Thumpin440ex
My air box is in the stock location. All I did was use a dremel tool and CAREFULLY removed the areas in the intake and intake boot, so it would fit in there. Works like a dream and fits perfect... It isn't hard just tedious.. As far as the plunger goes I have read guys having success with just filling them in, but I played it safe and used the plunger and rtv..


John

Did you just pull the tab back and stick the bolt in? I can pull that tab back far enough to get the bolt it but it seems like it puts uneeded stress on the connection between the boot and carb. I have the plunger, spring, and black nut but the threads are messed up on the nut (part that threads into the carb) I think i got it started in there though and I just topped it off with RTV. I'm not 100 percent sure on the jetting yet. I have a 162 main with the stock pilot and 3 turns out but I think i need to go bigger on both. I just have a 416 with filter, some holes in the lid, and slip on. Grinding the header welds this winter.

[Thumpin440ex]

I am not sure what exactly what tab you are talking about??


John

[bherriman]

Just the mounting tab on the back of the airbox that you bolt to the sub frame. When the carb is fully bolted up it moves my air box about 1/2 inch and the mounting hole on that "tab" does not line up anymore unless I pull back on it and stick the bolt in, however, it also pulls back on the boot between the box and carb causing stress on that connection.

[bherriman]

Took it for a ride today to try and figure out jetting and got some mixed results. I have a 416 with filter and slip on, with the stock carb I ran a 40 pilot, 2.5 turns on the screw, and a 155 main. Added the 450 carb with a 48 pilot, 3 turns, and a 162 main thinking I would be golden. If you stab the throttle it will fall on its face for a second and then pick back up (assuming it's fat on the main), but I also have some popping on decel. I wouldnt think with the stock pilot and 3 turns it would be lean but i don't know. Also I just now realized i never even looked at the needle, maybe that is causing my problems.

[honda400ex2003]

you will probably have to go to at least a 52 pilot i would think. and the 162 should be pretty close imo maybe a size or two too big. get the pilot circuit setup first after it is warmed up to full temp then you can start to work on the main after that. the needle should be good on the 3rd clip position too. Ill check to see what pilot i am running then get back to you. I cant seem to recall which it is but believe it to be a 52 pilot. it was super lean with the 48 in mine too. steve

[bherriman]

OK thanks, I didn't think i would need that big of a pilot, but I am going to be grinding my header welds sometime soon so I'm hoping that my main will get a little closer with that. I'll go check on my needle, I'm going to assume its already in the 3rd position but you never know.

[honda400ex2003]

did you get a chance to work on it at all? steve

[slightlybent47]

It sounds like your past this point now but maybe some else can benefit form the info.
When I put my 450 carb on, it was very easy. The intake boot went on just fine with a little wd-40 and a little twist as you slide it on. You do have to use a deferent clamp because the stock one won’t fit.
The air box boot was easy as well, just go to any hardware store and get a 2”x2” rubber boot for a pvc pipe and it will slide over the air box boot just right, then take a knife and cut the excess off leaving about a ½” to 3/4” sticking out past the stock boot. Take it back off and turn it around and slip the cut end over the air box boot and put a clamp on it.
Now the good end should stick out about ¾” past the stock boot, it should now fit in the stock passion and reach the carb.

It should look like this when your done.

http://i51.tinypic.com/1qstcn.jpg

[tri5ron]

QUOTE]Originally posted by bherriman
Yea I've got it working good with the box moved up, I just wanted to keep the box in the stock location so the snorkle isn't in a bind or anything. Also can you just fill the hot start up with silicon or do you need the plunger. [/QUOTE]



Originally posted by Thumpin440ex
My air box is in the stock location. All I did was use a dremel tool and CAREFULLY removed the areas in the intake and intake boot, so it would fit in there. Works like a dream and fits perfect... It isn't hard just tedious.. As far as the plunger goes I have read guys having success with just filling them in, but I played it safe and used the plunger and rtv..


John

NOW, HEAR THIS....

Reguarding the use of the Plunger, vs.,...
Silicone,
RTV,
Rubber plugs,
etc.,.....

You MUST use the Plunger.

It is NOT, simply a matter, of plugging the hole.

It IS a matter of plugging the PORT,
at the lower section of the passage.

The EASIEST,
and,
LEAST TROUBLESOME,
way to do this,
is,.....

TO USE THE PLUNGER !

READ the "Shootout" thread very carefully.
then read it again.

Pay PARTICULAR ATTENTION to my post on page 8, dated 09-15-09, at 7:34 pm.
(third from the bottom, on page 8)

http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=409169&perpage=10&pagenumber=1

I tried to explain WHY it is important, to use the Plunger,....
AND WHAT will happen, if you try to simply plug the top of the plunger PORT,...
WITHOUT using the Plunger.

Bottom line here guys is,....

you will save yourselfs ALOT of headaches, if you just
USE THE PLUNGER.

[bherriman]

Its running, but the jetting isn't perfect. The weather turned to absolute crap here (70 deg. Monday and now today the high was 37) so i probably wont ride anymore this year. I'm trying to pick out what jets i want, and then get an order put together so I'm not paying shipping for just jets. I still haven't figured out a solution to my air box location, and I'm wondering how Slightlybent's doens't leak? I figured when you tightened the the hose clamp down on the boot it would just crush it and not seal up. I'm sure this has been covered somewhere, but as we are already on the topic, when you install the plunger and spring do you just drop them down in the hole? Or is there a correct way of doing it?

[slightlybent47]

If I remember right the plunger goes in first with the point pointing down, then the spring goes on top of that with the cap going on last. The boot coming from the air box is fairly stiff so it won’t crush like you think. That fits very tight so the clamp is just to secure it and keep dust from getting in. I’ve had this set up this way for a year now and it’s holding up fine and works great. It only cost a few dollars for the 2” hose and clamps. The hose I used is like the ones you use to patch to pipes together without removing everything. I can’t remember what you call it, it has a name but I can’t remember.
I have a 416 with 12 1/2 - 1 and stage two cam, porting and pipe with the air box lid removed and the header welds ground. The 450 carb I used worked great right off the bat but I did bump the main up to a 200. I sometimes run a 195 main but mostly a 200.
The pilot is stock I think but I suspect that the guy I got it from had put in the hr kit at one time and I don’t know what the jetting is on those. It did have a bigger main jet in it when I got it so that’s why I think it had the kit installed. I don’t know where the needle is ether
It run great so I never had to mess with it.

[bherriman]

Man! I can't believe people have to run such a big jet. Mine is rich on the top end with a 162 and its lean on the bottom with the stock pilot, 3 turns out on the screw. As far as the hot start goes, I did put it in that order I was just wandering if you just drop it all in or if their was something special that had to be done.

[bherriman]

I finally got some time after work to do a little tuning on the carb, and I think I'm 90 % there. It is slightly rich off idle, which I kind of expected with a 52 pilot and 2 turns on the screw I'll prob back it down to 1.25 mabye 1.5 turns. The odd thing is I ended up at a 155 for the main, actually its the exact jet out of the stock carb. I was slightly rich on the stocker but I am confused as to why I have to run the same size main. I think it may be a bit lean now (20 degrees) but when summer comes around I think it will be pretty close to perfect. What do you guys think?


P.S. This plug had about 20 hours on it before I started this test, below is after 15 minutes of messing around in the trails/ fields and then a 3rd gear plug chop.



<a href="http://s1190.photobucket.com/albums/z445/bherriman/?action=view&amp;current=DSCN1164.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z445/bherriman/DSCN1164.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[honda400ex2003]

looks nice! 155 is quite low but hey looks good to me! congrats on jetting it correctly. :D steve

[426kidz]

idk if this guy still makes em... http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=314423&perpage=13&highlight=carb&pagenumber=1

[trailrider894]

Originally posted by 426kidz
idk if this guy still makes em....http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthr...rb&pagenumber=1

link doesn't work...

[426kidz]

try it now!

[trailrider894]

Originally posted by 426kidz
try it now!

works.

[426kidz]

yeah, idk how good this helps, didnt really read everythin in the post but just an idea for him.:D

[CJM]

I have said adapter, not sure if he makes them anymore as I havent seen him around and he was talking about the machining costs had gone way up on these.

Its just some aluminum pipe material Im sure. If anyone needs I could provide dimensions.

[426kidz]

yeah throw me some numbers and I'll see what I can make. Thanks

[honda400ex2003]

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/8742/spacerspecssheet.th.png (http://img248.imageshack.us/i/spacerspecssheet.png/)


steve

[honda400ex2003]

article to go with it.

http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=421133&highlight=install

steve

[honda400ex2003]

as a side note 426 the small OD could be a bit smaller than what it is on the drawing. take that .09" down to .07 and you will be good to go. you could also make both diameters .75 instead of .75/.5 for the 2 halfs. that would give more clamping room to get it on there. both would def help it out a bit but if you go .07 on both sides it will go all the way to the base quite easy. it has to stretch the the .09" and can be tough if it is cold outside. i used a big block of material to cut it out of also. steve

[426kidz]

You the man. thanks a ton!!!:D :D

[zrpilot]

Mine were much thinner walled as you said. Clamping the thin walled part with out distorting it is the tricky part.

[honda400ex2003]

ZR thanks again for the help with making that when i made it last year! mine has been working excellent thus far even with it a bit thicker on the ends. If i made a new one though i would do as you told me after i made mine when you suggested to go to .07. steve

[CJM]

ETA: well I measured it and it seems ZR chimed in with blue prints lol

Outside diameter of turned smaller section is 60.50mm inside of smaller section is 57.50mm

Outside of larger not turned down section 67.50mm. Inside of larger not turned down section is 62mm.

Overall height is 30mm. height of turned down section is 15mm. larger section height is 17.3mm

Thickness of turned down section is 1.75mm. Thickness of non turned down section is 2.65mm

All measurements are close, I would guesstimate my caliper to be true but it is from harbor freight and may be off slightly. I doubt it would make a huge deal if we were off by 1mm as I was checking everything over and it the adapter is def handmade and slightly off itself I do know the caliper is true the last time I used it tho. I would compare everything to the carb and air boots to be sure.

But thats the measurements. It appears to be made out brushed aluminum.

[426kidz]

cool. thanks Ill see what happens..My buddie is getting a 450r carb and I know he wont be able too make it!;) but thanks everyone:cool:

[CJM]

Steve, did you save the cad file drawings for the machine? Or did you make it by hand?

If you saved the files you can attach them and anyone can walk down the machine shop and they can make it easy.

[426kidz]

yeah if so you can send them too me...I have hands on too the machines...would save time.:D

[honda400ex2003]

i made it on a cnc that we programmed as we went. sorry, i dont have any of the code. I wish i did though, that would def be nice to have. i would be making them to sell if that was the case.

steve

[CJM]

Thats a shame steve, oh well.

I wonder if I could get my grandfather to make these up for a few bucks. he is a retired tool and die maker/machinist and still has some hands on machines around. Would give him something to do as well. If there is enough demand Ill get like 5 made up for a reasonable cost.

Overall working off the dimensions I think if your close it should work ok.

Thats why you seal the adapter to the carb with some RTV and the air boot is pretty flexible to work with as well.

I wonder how well it would work if you use an ABS pipe? ABS is much stronger than PVC and is not brittle when its cold.

[426kidz]

ok, thanks

[honda400ex2003]

anything with the biggest OD and the smallest ID would be perfect. I have been meaning to look for a long time but never really did. I dont have a lathe or mill to cut this stuff so i never did anything wtih them. steve

[426kidz]

yeah, I think there is alot of options too this... just gotta think! how about I give you the Cad and you make me one!!:devil: save me time and you can make money.

[CJM]

Ill ring my grandfather tomorrow if I remember. Gotta have a small demand for it. he can work off those blue prints if we get the right material.

[426kidz]

sounds good thanks for the help guys!

[honda400ex2003]

use mine if you want. i dont care. it will work perfect, grind off the little ribs on the outside of the carb. that is key! otherwise, heat it up, it will slide right on the carb, no need to use rtv or anything. steve

[CJM]

Its that tight on your version steve?

[honda400ex2003]

yup. it is good to go if the ribs are off. steve

[CJM]

say the word 426 kid and ill make the call, lemme know.

[426kidz]

ok, ill PM you sounds good!

[bherriman]

If you guys make one using Steve's deminsions let me know, I would be interested.

[426kidz]

you got it!

[bherriman]

I read somewhere that you could use a 450 air box instead of going the adaptor route. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

[426kidz]

i dont see why this would not work, but my bro said just get a drummel and use your stock airbox and drummel it out until its wide enought...FREE and works!he sa done it before.:D

[Thumpin440ex]

In regards to the intake boot. I used the stock boot, along with the air box in the stock location. I cleaned up the inside of the boot very carefully, it fits like a dream..

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/mangler0075/400ex%20build/carbboot.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/mangler0075/400ex%20build/carbboot1.jpg



John

[426kidz]

yeah...works good. and free looks great man

[bherriman]

Yea I've did the dremel idea. If I keep my airbox in the stock location (with the bolt on back and the two "studs" on the front) my boot will barely cover the first "rib" cast into the carb. After riding for a while it just vibrates off as there is not enough to clamp onto.

[CJM]

Noticed your using a band clamp thats larger than stock-thats probably why it hasnt come off.

[Thumpin440ex]

I used that because the stock clamps are junk, was about rusted away.. I had a bunch of these laying around, are all stainless so I fig I couldn't go wrong.


John

[CJM]

Reminds me of the fuel line "clamp" if you could call it that. I threw that piece of wire away and put a band clamp on..

[Thumpin440ex]

Yep I did the same thing lol. Every thing I could possibly put on this bike that I could find in stainless I did.. So 98% of all the hardware is SS...

John

[bherriman]

Originally posted by CJM
Noticed your using a band clamp thats larger than stock-thats probably why it hasnt come off.



I'm also using a hose clamp, but like I said my boot isn't long enough. I can barely get past the first "rib" on the carb.

[bherriman]

Has anyone runnin the 450 carb had to mess with the accelerator pump? I have a slight "bog" when stabbing the throttle and have heard that adjusting the AP can solve my issues. I'm pretty sure my jetting is dang close with a 155 main, 52 pilot, and 1.25 turns on the screw. It only "bogs" if I stab the throttle from about 1/4-1/2 to WOT, if I just roll on the throttle it runs pretty good.

[rubbersdown]

Originally posted by bherriman
Has anyone runnin the 450 carb had to mess with the accelerator pump? I have a slight "bog" when stabbing the throttle and have heard that adjusting the AP can solve my issues. I'm pretty sure my jetting is dang close with a 155 main, 52 pilot, and 1.25 turns on the screw. It only "bogs" if I stab the throttle from about 1/4-1/2 to WOT, if I just roll on the throttle it runs pretty good.

Im assuming your using an fcr carb right? Is it from a crf450 or a newer trx450? They are the same carb but I am not sure which diaphragm the trx450 has if thats the one your using. Either way it is the AP circuit that causes that low end bog when you stab at the throttle. Problem is that there is a gap between the AP Link Lever and the AP Set Screw. If its the crf carb just let me know and I can tell you a super easy way to fix it. If its the trx carb let me know and I can tell you what to check and adjust to fix it.

[bherriman]

It's off an 05 450r. Its the 42mm not the fcr

[rubbersdown]

Originally posted by bherriman
It's off an 05 450r. Its the 42mm not the fcr

Ah ok got ya, Well biggest problem with that carb is that there is no leak jet, which means there is no way to really get it tuned in. Couple things you can try, you can either A: Go up a size in the pilot and see if that will take up the slack but I doubt it. Or B: Take your carb out (but still attached to the throttle cable). Take it apart and look at your AP link arm, there should be a set screw with it. While watching these closely slowly push the throttle all the way to WOT. At WOT make sure the link arm and set screw are still together, if there is a gap then adjust the set screw to where it just touches the link arm when at WOT. Alot of times this will help because it makes it so the AP will still squirt at close to full throttle. Problem is most of these are adjusted from factory so that when you stab the throttle the AP doesnt squirt passed like half throttle so the motor lacks that extra fuel its supposed to get from the AP when the throttle is opened suddenly.

[bherriman]

Interesting, I was thinking the bog was from a rich condition and have been trying to lean it out. You are saying the AP is spraying at the wrong time causing a lean condition?

[rubbersdown]

Yah pretty much. What happens is the AP is controlled by throttle position and is set to squirt at a certain part of the throttle, which is USUALLY towards the lower 3/4 of the throttle position. So if you ram the throttle open passed that point the motor does not have enough fuel to instantly just take off because the AP is probably not squirting or has ran out of squirt and there is not enough vacuum yet for the main jet to take over so the lack of fuel causes a bog. Usually you can tune some of this by installing a different leak jet but sense your carb has no leak jet the best bet would be to try and "time" your AP to squirt past the point that you normally open the throttle when you punch it. Which in most cases of people who ride alot and or race is at WOT lol. So your best bet and what I have had the most success with in most AP applications is to just adjust the set screw all the way out to the link arm when the throttle is wide open. On the FCR carbs, we actually use safety wire and wire the set screw and link arm together at wot so that there together ALL the time. Again, this is something to check, you may find your AP is adjusted correctly already, in which case sense there is no leak jets to adjust you have to try and make up the difference with the pilot jet and then sadly that is usually as good as it gets until you upgrade to an fcr carb which sucks because they are pricey.

[bherriman]

Ok thanks for the info, I'll look into the whole linkage thing. The 52 pilot i have is 2 sizes over stock and I've only got a lightly modded 416 so I would think its big enough but maybe not. Thanks for actually helping and not being a D- bag like 90% of the people on here are.

[rubbersdown]

Haha no problem man, good luck with it, if ya need any other help or info on it or anything just pm me or post, or both cause I dont always check every post on here.

[bherriman]

Took the carb off today and looked under the black cover to check out the AP action. The arm is not even pushing down on the rod enough to make it squirt out any gas. I'm confused, I took unscrewed the arm and put it back on just to see and still nothing.

[rubbersdown]

Does the arm not push down on it at all? The arm does not push down alot on the diaphragm because it is very small so dont expect a huge push from it. If there is fuel in the main bowl and you get no squirt from the AP when the throttle is pressed then probably either that fuel circuit is clogged or your diaphragm is torn or damaged. Take the AP cover off the bottom of the bowl and take a look at the diaphragm. Unscrew it slowly because theres a spring in there that puts pressure on the cover.

[bherriman]

I can manually push down the rod/diaphram and fuel squirts out.

[rubbersdown]

huh, the levers got to be hanging up on something, im not super familiar with that particular carb and cant think how the levers actuated. There a spring that could be catching or something?

[bherriman]

Its actually just a funny shaped arm with a bolt in the middle (pivot), a tab on one end to push on the AP pump rod, and then a roller on the other end that rides along the "drum" (not sure what its called) that your throttle cable connects to. I would say that the AP pump rod with travel approx. 1/4" when I push on it with my finger and fuel will squirt out. With the level installed it only moves 1/8" and no fuel flows. I'm stumped.

[bherriman]

Well I manage to get the AP pump to spray when I stab the throttle, but I'm still having the "bog" issue. I'm stumped...starting to thing the 450r carb is just a waste. Of course I already got rid of my stocker:ermm:

[rubbersdown]

So it didnt get any better at all huh. Unfortunately theres probably not much your going to be able to do sense theres no other way to adjust it.

[bherriman]

Theres gotta be something I can do...many people run this same carb on their 400 with no problems at all.

[rubbersdown]

I know that carb doesnt have leak jet but does it have a hole there at all? or is there just nothing what so ever?

[bherriman]

I'll have to look. Could the problem be with my needle? I'm not sure what position its it. I tried to look but one of the screws on the "piston" was stripped so I couldn't take it out.

[rubbersdown]

could be. I know they do make an aftermarket needle for that carb thats supposed to help it a bit. Think you can get it from service honda.

[bherriman]

Yea when i bought the carb they guy gave me an extra needle for it (assuming the stock one) so maybe its got an hrc needle or something. I gotta figure out a way to get the stripped screw out so i can atleast see what position its in.

[rubbersdown]

assuming its the little stripped Phillips, just cut a groove across it and use a flat head on it.