View Full Version : thinkin of a hybrid........
blaster12s
10-26-2010, 08:15 AM
i have a full race ready 04/06 yfz with a whole back up frame and motor etc...enough for two bikes, spare stuff needs a little bit of work but i just want some info on hybrids, they must handle great and have good power, how well do they hold up? i know parts are custom and more money, but if they dont break as much as my yfz ill be so happy, oh and what brands of frames and motors do i want to stay away from and why. thaks for all the info!
lasher45
10-26-2010, 08:45 AM
Im building a full Walsh CRF450 hybrid for next season. So far it's been going good, but I havn't finished it yet. Ive rode a full Walsh 250R and it was insane how well that thing handled so Im sure the 450 will handle great.
Contact Walsh if you want top quality parts. Their great people and have an amazing product. Their blue powdercoat looks awesome as well!
blaster12s
10-26-2010, 12:19 PM
im not to sure on what im gonna do so pros and cons of both would be awesome.
Derrick Adams
10-26-2010, 05:34 PM
Just from what i've read and heard...
Hybrids always have and always will cost alot to build new. Used ones sell for fairly cheap right now though.
Don't buy a Hybrid if you can't afford to upkeep it. They are usually full built race machines and aren't rode easily. Expect the same costs as your YFZ in upkeep at least.
The 250R geometry is hands down the best design built to date. All Hybrids are generally designed around this chassis. They will out handle anything else out there PERIOD.
Most hybrids have dirt bike engines which work well but are very critical in gearing to work correctly for your style of riding and tracks you ride on. The CRF and the YZ are the most popular.
From what it seems the Roll Design and Walsh Chassis seem to be the most refined and Roll no longer makes one, so Walsh is the #1 choice. After that Houser and Laeger are also good brands. I have read the LSR chassis tend to crack up easier. Also, during the days of hybrids there were alot of different approachs taken with the rear suspension. Most went with No-Link styles, but some were designed around stock 250R rear linkage, CR500 linkage, and CRF450 linkage.
It's been discussed in the Hybrid forum, but from everything i've read and gathered the perfect hybrid would be a 03-04 YZ450 powered Walsh machine with CR500 or CRF450 rear suspension.
So..
PROS:
Best Handling available
Light Weight
Purpose built
Strong
CONS:
Most used ones have been ridden HARD
Lots of custom parts that can be hard to replace
Engines with very particular gearing required
Hope this helps. I can't make promises on all this, just what i've read over the years.
blaster12s
10-26-2010, 05:38 PM
ok thank you, i fell like if i could get the specks on a frame i could weldone up myself and just build around my own frame. BUT that is unlikely so ill have to keep my eyes open for a good deal
anyone want to trade a beat to hell yfz for a beat to hell hybrid?
Stay away from lone star, they are junk. My friend bought a swingarm from them and it cracked in only a few months. They would not replace it only weld it. Then the powder coat flaked off in one big spot all at once. When he called about that they more less said thats your problem. Lonestar makes JUNK JUNK JUNK AND MORE JUNK...............................
blaster12s
10-26-2010, 06:11 PM
reason im becoming an engineer to build these things better then they ever could out of my garage.
oh come on now, lsr stuff isnt bad, dont bash them, they put time into there product
they also got diff grades ofr swingarms, if he just bought a lightweight rec swingarm its just a cool looking replacemtn
i always liked walsh stuff but his stuff breaks too and its $$$
i destroyed a swingarm after a season called him, they fixed it for 90 and knocked $200 off a new one, said there last designed was very poor and there new one was much better, he said they engineer them to be as light as possible, and too rigid affected handling and not rigid enough would do the same as well as the durability...i just went with it... $1600 later
madskrillz2
10-26-2010, 10:38 PM
I've been considering doing the same thing myself. I realize now that I'm not going to be able to make any money doing it now, so since it'll just be for fun, no point in having a production bike.
i really see side by sides taking off and quads being the second choice for offroad recreation
Side by Sides are 10 times the money atv 's are to race.
blaster12s
10-27-2010, 08:01 AM
side by sides will never make it. too much $ thats why dirt bikes are so popular cuz there so god damn cheap
Originally posted by blaster12s
side by sides will never make it. too much $ thats why dirt bikes are so popular cuz there so god damn cheap
dirtbikes and quads are getting close to the same in cost now
its great to see our sport getting to the same level, i mean you can take a yfz r, ltr throw nerfs and a tether on and run local a class if u wanted and be competitive...
and getting some forks done by procircuit and some aftermarket trees is right on par with getting a walsh / fox front end
wear and tear may be slightly higher on the quads
i just see quads not getting much bigger than they are, i see the side by side market appealing to ppl who normally wouldnt ride quads , cost to purchase a side by side isnt far off from a top utility muscle quad, lucas oil series is getting big outwest... and i think the rhino scare is over with the right push i could see it reaching a more maintstream appeal than quads will
honda400ex2003
10-27-2010, 10:40 PM
i dont have much to contribute but you should def check out a couple of the hybrids in the F/S section if you would be at all interested in buying. I know you said you wanted to use your frame though so this may be a bit far fetched. There is a really cool laeger one in there right now with a crf motor in it for 2900 bucks. unreal for that price. steve
blaster12s
10-28-2010, 07:34 AM
never said i wanted to use a yfz frame, i just have an extra so its kinda hard to get away from the bike when you have tons of spare parts.
jrspawn
10-28-2010, 10:00 AM
Originally posted by blaster12s
side by sides will never make it. too much $ thats why dirt bikes are so popular cuz there so god damn cheap
I wouldnt count on that. The side by side market is doing very good, and only going to get better! Every company out there is putting alot of effort into the side by side industry. I would say without a doubt the side by side market will only Grow over the coming years, by a good bit!
Justin
440racer66
10-28-2010, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by jrspawn
I wouldnt count on that. The side by side market is doing very good, and only going to get better! Every company out there is putting alot of effort into the side by side industry. I would say without a doubt the side by side market will only Grow over the coming years, by a good bit!
Justin
it should grow but i just dont see it becoming more popular than atv racing. theres just too much cash envolved.
I agree people are having a hard time just trying to race atv's because of the cost of the sport.
tayyo789
10-28-2010, 08:34 PM
Back on topic, hybrids are A LOT of work, and even more money. They are a constant project. They out perform other machines, but you have to know what you're doing when you aren't riding it. Maintenance and upkeep are the most important part of owning a hybrid, and most parts are custom so you also have to be prepared for things to break. Since none of the parts were made to go together, they will fail, its just a matter of you being prepared when they do. Building your own frame is a cheap way of doing it, but it takes a professional to get it right. If you want it to take abuse, buy an aftermarket frame. Unless of course you want to bet your life on amatuer welds and engineering. I don't mean to question your mechanical ability, but guys like Walsh have been doing it for a long time...
blaster12s
10-29-2010, 12:24 AM
well me and my uncle build f1 cars and forumula one drift cars so our welds are very good, ive built a arms for myself etc i would just need demtions and some metal and i would have a frame in 2 days.
TCracin440ex
10-29-2010, 03:25 AM
here is an idea, if one brand has failed you.
SWITCH BRANDS. its a no brainer.
if you honestly think a hybrid is going to be less maintence and upkeep your sadly mistaken.
blaster12s
10-29-2010, 06:31 AM
its not that, i have no problem with doing up keep, cuz there all gonna be aot of work, i was wondering if hybrids were that much better for about the same amount of work as an 8 yr old race bike.
TCracin440ex
10-29-2010, 07:05 AM
to answer your question...YES THEY ARE.
if youve had bad luck with yamaha, try going to honda, suzuki or kawi.
going to be an asston cheaper then building a hybrid.
jrspawn
10-29-2010, 05:36 PM
Im still trying to figure out why people say hybrids are more upkeep than production quads???
tayyo789 made some good points on conversion hybrids. The setups that were not originally made to work together, but have been modified to work can cause some issues down the road.
But, for a model specific hybrid(walsh, houser, laeger, etc) thats chassis is made for the specific engine, the up keep IS NOT MORE THAN A PRODUCTION QUAD, if anything is is LESS!!!
I always get a kick out of hearing the whole tons of upkeep on hybrids from others(most of who have never owned one, or slapped together something thats not right).
The motors are no different from any other quad or bike and the chassis are 10 times stronger. Most hardware are heavy duty/heims/etc.... Compaired to stock crap!
A good brand model specific hybrid will outlast a production quad by a mile, and then some!
blaster12s
10-29-2010, 05:45 PM
i like the way you think, done correctly they should be strong.
tayyo789
10-29-2010, 11:37 PM
Basically, do it right.
Use the right parts, take your time, and take care of it. Hybrids are a committment. They aren't something that people try out and see if they like it. IMO they are better than any production bike out there and worth everything that comes with them
Sjorge450R
10-30-2010, 10:14 AM
see, in the day and age we are in, with so many nice bikes on the market, there is no need for hybrids.
People used to build hybrids with 450 bike engines when everyone was still riding 250r's or 400ex's. To me, it makes much more sense buying a production bike and modding it out. It just is less headaches and everything will fit, because you are buying parts that are meant for the setup.
I know people like custom bikes and such, but I would never mess around with a hybrid. I would rather finish 95% of my races than 45% because of stuff not getting along.
jrspawn
10-30-2010, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by Sjorge450R
see, in the day and age we are in, with so many nice bikes on the market, there is no need for hybrids.
People used to build hybrids with 450 bike engines when everyone was still riding 250r's or 400ex's. To me, it makes much more sense buying a production bike and modding it out. It just is less headaches and everything will fit, because you are buying parts that are meant for the setup.
I know people like custom bikes and such, but I would never mess around with a hybrid. I would rather finish 95% of my races than 45% because of stuff not getting along.
Again, the reason to buy a model specific hybrid where everything IS supposed to fit.
And the main reason to ride a hybrid is for the overall handling and power package. The handling of something along the lines of a walsh, laeger, etc.... setup is unmatched when it comes to production quads. Ive built and raced about every combination possible both hybrid and production. Theres a reason why all my personal race quads are walsh hybrids!
Buy a production quad, dump a bunch of money in it, and replace frames every year or two........
And again, buy model specific aftermarket setups, and everything IS meant to fit.
Ive never not finished a race because of my hybrids either. I have on the other hand dnf'd several times on some of my production quads(ranging from something minor to broken frames).
Its the people that put together hack job hybrids that give people the wrong impression. You get on something like whats sitting out in my shop or any other dialed in hybrid(walsh laeger etc) and you will be throwing rocks at your production quad, you would def. change your might about your previous statement.
Justin
blaster12s
10-30-2010, 01:05 PM
now that this has been established anyone wanna trade??? haha
250x_kyle
10-30-2010, 01:56 PM
i started my houser hybrid and its no harder to get things to fit then a production 450. everything bolts right up.
D Bergstrom
10-30-2010, 02:58 PM
Guess I don't really understand how a hybrid is going to have more power then a production quad. Take a CRF hybrid and a production TRX for example. Sure if you bolt a bone stock motor in the frame, the CRF will probably have a little more horsepower. Once you modify them though, they should be pretty even, after all, they are the same basic motor. My worry with a dirt bike motor would be the transmission, is the motor I am using is up to the task of handling the traction of two big 10" wide tires instead of a single 3" wide tire. It is something I would be concerned about.
Handling, I guess if you think 250R geometry is better overall, then yes, the hybrid should handle better. I have both a 450R and a 250R. Both have areas that they excel at, but overall, my 450R's work better for the type of riding I do.
Sure a custom hybrid frame is stronger, but a fully gusseted stock frame should be just as good. In my 6 years or so of racing quads, I have never had to replace a frame. Sure I have had to repair a few cracks here and there, but that was before I had my suspension fully dialed in. (If you are destoying frames, look at your suspension setup.) Now that I have my suspension dialed in, I have not had to repair one crack.
I have never owned a hybrid and don't really have a reason to. If I need any part on my production quad, it is pretty easy to get. A hybrid you may have to go to one place to get the part they need. What if they don't have it is stock and have to build it, but you need it soon? Worse yet, what if they close their doors? Where do you get those parts from then?
Bottom line is, RACING is expensive. Dosen't matter if you run a production or hybrid quad, it is still going to cost you money. To me, the same basic upkeep has to be done no matter what you own. You say you keep braking parts on your YFZ. What are you breaking? Why are the parts breaking? Might want to look at some things before you think a switch to a hybrid would solve all your problems.
Doug
jrspawn
10-30-2010, 07:16 PM
You are right, bone stock out of the box bikes will normally lay down more power. Trans problems? I have Never had one out of my yz400's, yz426's, yz450f's, or crf450's. I have had numerous trx450 and ltr450 trans problems. Like other misconceptions about hybrids, people for some reason think the bike transmissions are weak and junk.... Like posted above, i have NEVER had a trans issue from a bike engine in any of my hybrids. Seems like some of the production 450 atv engine transmissions and components are weaker...
Bike engines def. have some good pros going for them, cant really think of any cons honestly. From gear ratios, ignition circuits, etc...
Comparing a stock style 250r frame to a Walsh, laeger, or roll setup can not be done. Yes they do share the same fenders. But overall chassis and suspension geometry is night and day different. Again, not even close in comparison!
Im not knocking production quads by any means, ive got my share of them also. But i can honestly say, in every area i can think of, a good hybrid setup is a better choice in my opinion. But everyone likes something different i guess.
Justin
Originally posted by D Bergstrom
Guess I don't really understand how a hybrid is going to have more power then a production quad. Take a CRF hybrid and a production TRX for example. Sure if you bolt a bone stock motor in the frame, the CRF will probably have a little more horsepower. Once you modify them though, they should be pretty even, after all, they are the same basic motor. My worry with a dirt bike motor would be the transmission, is the motor I am using is up to the task of handling the traction of two big 10" wide tires instead of a single 3" wide tire. It is something I would be concerned about.
Handling, I guess if you think 250R geometry is better overall, then yes, the hybrid should handle better. I have both a 450R and a 250R. Both have areas that they excel at, but overall, my 450R's work better for the type of riding I do.
Sure a custom hybrid frame is stronger, but a fully gusseted stock frame should be just as good. In my 6 years or so of racing quads, I have never had to replace a frame. Sure I have had to repair a few cracks here and there, but that was before I had my suspension fully dialed in. (If you are destoying frames, look at your suspension setup.) Now that I have my suspension dialed in, I have not had to repair one crack.
I have never owned a hybrid and don't really have a reason to. If I need any part on my production quad, it is pretty easy to get. A hybrid you may have to go to one place to get the part they need. What if they don't have it is stock and have to build it, but you need it soon? Worse yet, what if they close their doors? Where do you get those parts from then?
Bottom line is, RACING is expensive. Dosen't matter if you run a production or hybrid quad, it is still going to cost you money. To me, the same basic upkeep has to be done no matter what you own. You say you keep braking parts on your YFZ. What are you breaking? Why are the parts breaking? Might want to look at some things before you think a switch to a hybrid would solve all your problems.
Doug
blaster12s
10-31-2010, 07:44 AM
ive broken frames from improper susp settings and that all got fixed, cracked casses, and honestly the most annoying thing is the electrical system keeps on going for me, along with stupid stuff like tie rods and heim joints. Shes just getting old, fast...
250x_kyle
10-31-2010, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by blaster12s
ive broken frames from improper susp settings and that all got fixed, cracked casses, and honestly the most annoying thing is the electrical system keeps on going for me, along with stupid stuff like tie rods and heim joints. Shes just getting old, fast...
no matter what you have, or even how well you maintain it. if you ride it hard stuffs gunna break. thats just how it is.
elementryder
10-31-2010, 08:49 PM
Shane if your looking into hybrids get ahold of mike from HRE, he builds alottta stuff for be and builds complete hybrids, amazing quailty and prices
blaster12s
11-01-2010, 10:09 AM
yeah tyler i will cuz im just so fed up with my yam i need something new.
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