11:1 compression 440 can i run 113 race gas???

[Cfred]

can i run race fuel in my 05 400ex? mods below

[Scro]

You can, but I don't know why you would. 11:1 will run fine on premium pump gas. You really don't have to worry about race gas until about 12.5:1.

[honda400ex2003]

it will run and def not ping with that but it is way overkill and will not burn as efficiently and could cause a loss in power really.

interested to see others ideas on the subject,

steve

[bherriman]

The only advantage I see in running race fuel in an 11:1 would be the lead race fuel contains.

[rubbersdown]

Running higher octane will NOT give you more power. All a higher octane does is allow you to make more power safely by preventing detonation. So if your bike runs fine on pump gas then running race gas when its not needed will literally do nothing for you and will more than likely have an adverse affect and will rob you of a couple horsepower. In the case of very high octane like 113 like your talking about the bike will more then likely not even run well at all without a complete re-tune of your carb and even when you get it tuned in you will notice no difference other than the weight of your wallet. Only reason your should ever run race gas is in high compression, nitrous or boosted applications. besides those there are not many reason to ever run race gas.

[honda400ex2003]

Originally posted by rubbersdown
In the case of very high octane like 113 like your talking about the bike will more then likely not even run well at all without a complete re-tune of your carb and even when you get it tuned in you will notice no difference other than the weight of your wallet.

who knows maybe he carries alot of $$$ thus spending this wad will create a better hp/weight ratio and making it FEEL like there is HP to be had from running 113. :devil: :blah: :blah: :blah:

only kidding,

steve

[400exshop]

92 or 105 race fuel is all you need hell you can get 92 race fuel now.

[f4iracer]

Originally posted by rubbersdown
Running higher octane will NOT give you more power. All a higher octane does is allow you to make more power safely by preventing detonation. So if your bike runs fine on pump gas then running race gas when its not needed will literally do nothing for you and will more than likely have an adverse affect and will rob you of a couple horsepower. In the case of very high octane like 113 like your talking about the bike will more then likely not even run well at all without a complete re-tune of your carb and even when you get it tuned in you will notice no difference other than the weight of your wallet. Only reason your should ever run race gas is in high compression, nitrous or boosted applications. besides those there are not many reason to ever run race gas.

i run 112 octane in my quad and it runs very good (stock motor). I dont' know what you're talking about

"more then likely not even run well at alll without a complete re-tune of your carb"

THAT IS NONSENSE.

i run it in my lawn mower too and it runs damm good also.

i've noticed the 112 in my ex lessens the valve noise.....not sure why but it does, and it certainly runs smoother, no question about it.

ok let the flaming begin....i'm serious though i do run 112, i get it from the local auto race shop for 5 a gallon.

[rubbersdown]

Originally posted by f4iracer
i run 112 octane in my quad and it runs very good (stock motor). I dont' know what you're talking about

"more then likely not even run well at alll without a complete re-tune of your carb"

THAT IS NONSENSE.

i run it in my lawn mower too and it runs damm good also.

i've noticed the 112 in my ex lessens the valve noise.....not sure why but it does, and it certainly runs smoother, no question about it.

ok let the flaming begin....i'm serious though i do run 112, i get it from the local auto race shop for 5 a gallon.

Ok, ill start by saying your fuel isnt going to lessen valve noise AT ALL sense the fuel doesnt even lube the valvetrain so im not even going to get into that too much lol. If anything what you were hearing before may have been mild detonation due to a poorly tuned bike or a crazy elevation or something which went away when you put in the race gas. Either that of you switched oils or were low on oil or something that was causing valve noise but fuel has nothing to do with valve noise. Anyway...on to the topic at hand... As far as bikes running on race gas thats why I said "more then likely", it may run well or it may not, depends on a lot of factors incl. elevation, temp, humidity and others. In MOST cases running that high octane of fuel will not run well in a bike not set up for it because that high of octane burns very fast and very cold and you will usually have to re-jet a descent amount larger to keep up with the speed that it burns...Either way, despite what you may think there is NO power gain from running race fuel is what I was saying. Whether your bike needs it or not, it is not a power adder, all it does is prevent detonation...period...thats all it does. So if your bikes not detonating why use it? Thats fine if you want to run it in your lawn mower or your quad or your kids power wheel all im saying is its a waste at $5.00 a gallon when its not going to add any power and its not needed to make your bike run the way it should.

[bherriman]

Originally posted by rubbersdown
Ok, ill start by saying your fuel isnt going to lessen valve noise AT ALL sense the fuel doesnt even lube the valvetrain so im not even going to get into that too much lol. If anything what you were hearing before may have been mild detonation due to a poorly tuned bike or a crazy elevation or something which went away when you put in the race gas. Either that of you switched oils or were low on oil or something that was causing valve noise but fuel has nothing to do with valve noise. Anyway...on to the topic at hand... As far as bikes running on race gas thats why I said "more then likely", it may run well or it may not, depends on a lot of factors incl. elevation, temp, humidity and others. In MOST cases running that high octane of fuel will not run well in a bike not set up for it because that high of octane burns very fast and very cold and you will usually have to re-jet a descent amount larger to keep up with the speed that it burns...Either way, despite what you may think there is NO power gain from running race fuel is what I was saying. Whether your bike needs it or not, it is not a power adder, all it does is prevent detonation...period...thats all it does. So if your bikes not detonating why use it? Thats fine if you want to run it in your lawn mower or your quad or your kids power wheel all im saying is its a waste at $5.00 a gallon when its not going to add any power and its not needed to make your bike run the way it should.

Race fuel contains lead. Lead will help lubricate the upper cylinder and beings it is sprayed through the intake runner and on/around the intake valve and in introduced to both valve faces when it ignites it is also "lubing" the valves in its own way. Most valve noise is caused by incorrect clearances between the rocker and butt of the valve, though, so you are correct that the fuel wouldn't lessen any valve noise, unless for some reason he could hear the seat of the valve closing against the head.:p

[rubbersdown]

Originally posted by bherriman
Race fuel contains lead. Lead will help lubricate the upper cylinder and beings it is sprayed through the intake runner and on/around the intake valve and in introduced to both valve faces when it ignites it is also "lubing" the valves in its own way. Most valve noise is caused by incorrect clearances between the rocker and butt of the valve, though, so you are correct that the fuel wouldn't lessen any valve noise, unless for some reason he could hear the seat of the valve closing against the head.:p

yah but I really doubt hes hearing the seat though, considering most people can barely hear the chatter of the rockers lol. thats another fun fact to bring up to...the lead... If you run 112 in your other toys like your lawn mower or utv or car or whatever. If that vehicle has EFI the high amounts of lead that is in the fuel will completely ruin your o2 sensors, EGT sensors and will destroy your cat converters if you have them. Just another little fact about why not to run race fuel in a vehicle its not made for lol.

[ish416]

I don't understand why anyone would waste their money by running a much higher octane than is needed.

An 11:1 air cooled engine should be fine with premium pump fuel (91 - 93) as long as there is no advanced timing involved.

I run E85 currently on my 12.5:1 416. I used to run 100LL AV fuel and while it ran fine, it would eat the packing out of my muffler after about a month of riding. I would assume that race gas would do the same since they both contain lead.

As for the lawn mower on race fuel, no need unless your super rich or your mower has a racing stripe.

[bherriman]

Originally posted by rubbersdown
yah but I really doubt hes hearing the seat though, considering most people can barely hear the chatter of the rockers lol. thats another fun fact to bring up to...the lead... If you run 112 in your other toys like your lawn mower or utv or car or whatever. If that vehicle has EFI the high amounts of lead that is in the fuel will completely ruin your o2 sensors, EGT sensors and will destroy your cat converters if you have them. Just another little fact about why not to run race fuel in a vehicle its not made for lol.

There is no way he is hearing the valve close against the seat...there was a touch of sarcasim in that last post lol... seriously though if the dude wants to run 112 let him..it wont hurt a thing (prob wont help either) I have an 11:1 and 75% of the time i run straight 93 but every once in a while I will do a 50/50 of 112 and 93.

[slightlybent47]

If you want to run race gas why run 113 octane? VP offers many fuels with low octane numbers so that those running lower compression can still get a cleaner burning fuel that produces slightly higher power ratings than just your average pump gas.
Check this link to there site and the page for atv racing fuels and they have at least a dozen that you can use.
I just picked up some of the new U4.4 to try out, it replaces the old U4.2 and is supposed to be better at keeping the heat down.

Link to VP's atv fuel
http://www.vpracingfuels.com/page469675.html

[rubbersdown]

Originally posted by bherriman
There is no way he is hearing the valve close against the seat...there was a touch of sarcasim in that last post lol... seriously though if the dude wants to run 112 let him..it wont hurt a thing (prob wont help either) I have an 11:1 and 75% of the time i run straight 93 but every once in a while I will do a 50/50 of 112 and 93.

I figured on the sarcasm lol. You would be surprised though, I consider myself a good mechanic but my moms husband is a %$#@!*& automotive genius and he can literally take his stethoscope and listen to the head and tell pretty damn close to how out of adjustment valves are just by the noise, it blows my mind. He has spent the last 20 years working on high end autos like Ferrari's and Lambos and what not though so for him looking at/working on an ATV or dirt bike is like me playing the little kids game where you put the square peg in the square hole. Its just too easy for him lol.

[honda01400ex]

there would be no point i had a 11:1 comp. and i was running pump gas and it ran perfect why spend extra money on race gas when you can run pump? also when i had the 11:1 comp. i was curious so i ran vp race gas one ride and didnt notice that much of a diffrence from it.

[brokenmike]

My 11:1 compression 440 pings on 93 so I put 110 In it. No problems. Plus everybody Loves the smell

[honda400ex2003]

it does smell good thats for sure. :D steve

[slightlybent47]

Ok brokenmike and steve since you love the smell of gas here is one for ya!lolhttp://planetsmilies.net/not-tagged-smiley-16309.gif (http://planetsmilies.net)

[honda400ex2003]

LOL awesome, i have been a bit lax on the smilies lately lol I hit a couple pretty good a few days ago though :D. steve

[f4iracer]

You guys can say what you want everybody knows everything on here.

The lifters get louder when my motor gets hotter. When i run 112 or 110 my motor stays cooler! Therefore i get much less valve lifter noise. Now what? I've got 3 other ex buddies that run the same stuff and it runs cooler on this fuel, so you can take that noise and shove it but, this is tested proven!

It's not hard to hear the valves on a 400ex, they tick like s.o.b.'s no reason to get up there with a stethascope cuz they're probably setup just fine, it's typicaly noise.

So, for the sarcastic know it alls, just cuz you can't afford it and i can doesn't mean you have to rip on the logic of race gas. Why do you think everybody that is any kind of serious runs that race gas?

It makes a tuned bike run better, you don't have to necessarily have a big bore or a high compression piston either!

Give it a shot and see what you think. I've heard the argument time and time again on the cbrworld.net forum and it's always the non users that claim it doesn't give anymore power.

I've also seen the dynotests that show if you're not predetonating you can run it with better performance.

And to the "sarcastic" guy that said it's bad for my mower, uhhh bro my mower don't have no efi and i don't know many that do, that's a pretty retarded comment.

I just run it cuz it's the only gas can i have.

The race fuel i get is a cleaner burning better performing fuel.....

say what you want non believers. try it first though so you're not so ignorant to the fact.

also the guy that keeps saying re-jet is referring to 2 strokes. There is no need to rejet when it comes to 4 stroke octane.

"Most valve noise is caused by incorrect clearances between the rocker and butt of the valve, though, "

not on the ex bro it makes noise PERIOD.

Another thing to remember is that these 400ex are not setup to run 87 straight from the factory, they recommend 92 min. straight from the factory. So anybody who figures 87 is fine.....obviously hasn't read the owners manual.

[bherriman]

Originally posted by f4iracer
You guys can say what you want everybody knows everything on here.

The lifters get louder when my motor gets hotter. When i run 112 or 110 my motor stays cooler! Therefore i get much less valve lifter noise. Now what? I've got 3 other ex buddies that run the same stuff and it runs cooler on this fuel, so you can take that noise and shove it but, this is tested proven!

It's not hard to hear the valves on a 400ex, they tick like s.o.b.'s no reason to get up there with a stethascope cuz they're probably setup just fine, it's typicaly noise.

So, for the sarcastic know it alls, just cuz you can't afford it and i can doesn't mean you have to rip on the logic of race gas. Why do you think everybody that is any kind of serious runs that race gas?

It makes a tuned bike run better, you don't have to necessarily have a big bore or a high compression piston either!

Give it a shot and see what you think. I've heard the argument time and time again on the cbrworld.net forum and it's always the non users that claim it doesn't give anymore power.

I've also seen the dynotests that show if you're not predetonating you can run it with better performance.

And to the "sarcastic" guy that said it's bad for my mower, uhhh bro my mower don't have no efi and i don't know many that do, that's a pretty retarded comment.

I just run it cuz it's the only gas can i have.

The race fuel i get is a cleaner burning better performing fuel.....

say what you want non believers. try it first though so you're not so ignorant to the fact.

also the guy that keeps saying re-jet is referring to 2 strokes. There is no need to rejet when it comes to 4 stroke octane.

"Most valve noise is caused by incorrect clearances between the rocker and butt of the valve, though, "

not on the ex bro it makes noise PERIOD.


First off I am the sarcastic one you keep talking about, however, most of your statements refer to the "sarcastic guy" when I had nothing to do with them. Try re-reading the thread.

Secondly I'm not a non-believer and I can afford race gas and again if you re-read the thread I state I will sometimes mix 112 and 93. The lead in the fuel does great things for your motor as far as the lubrication and as you said it will run a bit cooler.

Last but not least "Most valve noise is caused by incorrect clearances between the rocker and butt of the valve, though, "

not on the ex bro it makes noise PERIOD. You are completely lost if you think the ticking and/or tapping noise you hear on 90% of 4 hundo's is not coming from the contact of the valve butt and rocker arm. Thats where the noise comes from period.


Wait a minute I'm not done......"The lifters get louder when my motor gets hotter. When i run 112 or 110 my motor stays cooler! Therefore i get much less valve lifter noise. Now what?" This further proves you are lost. THE MOTOR IN A 400 EX CONTAINS ABSOLUTELY NO SORT OF LIFTER IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM.

THANK YOU, COME AGAIN.

[honda400ex2003]

dare i say....

http://www.ryanmcbain.com/forums/images/smilies/owned2.gif

or would that be

http://images.clipartof.com/small/4294-Male-Chef-Stirring-Pot-Of-Stew-Clipart.jpg


:confused: :confused: :confused:

steve:devil: :devil: :devil: :blah: :blah:

[f4iracer]

my 400ex has lifters, maybe you have a special one, but i've got cam lifters, i referred to as the valve lifters, same thing.

u need to get to the mechanic shop and learn a few things about your quad there bud. Especially if you're gonna try and own me.

the 400ex has lifters. PERIOD!

by the way i stated that the noise is coming from the valves, the quoted text i put in my post came from another posting haha so you're attacking me but i'm not the original person. I was quoting that text in order to explain that the noise does come from the VALVES! even if it's setup right.

[bherriman]

WAIT A MINUTE! YOUR CAM SHAFT HAS LIFTERS?

[honda400ex2003]

lol this just gets better and better doesnt it thanks for a good laugh tonight guys! I appreciate it, it has been a long day. How did you guys know? steve

[f4iracer]

The 400ex does not have pushrods however.

it's an overhead cam.

[honda400ex2003]

I think mine has rocker arms (where most of the noise comes from when the faces of the rocker arms hit the top of the valve thus making a tapping noise), cam lobes, and has valves with springs and retainers along with a few other small things. i dont know about anyone elses though... but heck maybe some of these new machines are different. beats me... steve

[bherriman]

I seriously hope for your quads sake that you don't do your own work. I have owned 250 r's, crf 250r dirt bike, and my 400ex. I have rebuit them all, and all ran great with not one problem, ever.


Your 400ex has no lifters, so get it out of your head.

And I'm not longer trying to own you as you are so obviously clueless about your engine.

Read this and learn... your cam shaft has LOBES on it and when your cam turns these lobes come in contact with your ROCKER ARM and push upwards on them. your ROCKER ARM, in turn, pushes down on the VALVE.

[bherriman]

I seriously hope for your quads sake that you don't do your own work. I have owned 250 r's, crf 250r dirt bike, and my 400ex. I have rebuit them all, and all ran great with not one problem, ever.

My father and I also have a business building race engines for dirt track cars, and not to pull my own chain, but we do it very successfully.


Your 400ex has no lifters, so get it out of your head.

And I'm not longer trying to own you as you are so obviously clueless about your engine.

Read this and learn... your cam shaft has LOBES on it and when your cam turns these lobes come in contact with your ROCKER ARM and push upwards on them. your ROCKER ARM, in turn, pushes down on the VALVE.

[honda400ex2003]

mine even look like this :eek2: :eek2:

http://www.duncanracing.com/images/BuyersGuides2009/big-rocker-arms.jpg

crazy stuff huh?
steve

[bherriman]

Apparently I really want to get the point across and posted that twice, o well, maybe you will get your facts figured out.

[bherriman]

Originally posted by honda400ex2003
mine even look like this :eek2: :eek2:

http://www.duncanracing.com/images/BuyersGuides2009/big-rocker-arms.jpg

crazy stuff huh?
steve

I think I recognize those parts mine just aren't quite so clean lol :devil:

[f4iracer]

I'm also in illinois you should come to our shop sometime.

I'm there 6 days a week so come on by sometime.

but i've got lifters because i've replaced them on older models.

now that i look you're basically from iowa so nevermind that explains everything, if you come to charleston raceway let me know we race every time they're running!

[bherriman]

We build some IMCA stock car motors, nice to see another dirt tracker on here. I know it really seems like I'm being a smart A** but I'm seriously intrigued about what you are calling the "lifters" in your EX. Maybe a picture is in order?

[f4iracer]

i don't know if i can find a picture......

Do you ever travel to any races? Rockford? Morris? Farmer City?

Charleston isn't a very big raceway but it draws a good crowd and it keeps our shop pretty busy. We build the motors from the bottom up. They all run on 112.

[bherriman]

There is a local guy that we sponsor pretty heavy and we usually travel with him, the the only IL track he runs is Quincy raceways ( its the only IMCA sanctioned track in IL) he runs a lot in Iowa, we always hit the big shows up there like the Great american stock car shoot- out and Boone Super nationals, Actaully went to Hays Kansas 2 weeks ago for the fall nationals. Yea we build all our from ground up too and they all run on sunoco 112, besides the ones on alcohol.

[honda400ex2003]

ah it is always good to see a nice battle between a couple of members resolved with more powersports talk :D cheers to that everyone! im heading to bed for the night i think lol. steve

[f4iracer]

We've been to the quad city raceway a couple times.(i thought it was IMCA)

we do local illinois tracks mostly though, none of the big shows really

kankakee, mt. vernon, peoria, quincy..

[bherriman]

Yea, there isn't many things I'd rather do than go to the dirt track on a friday, saturday, and sunday night lol. On the lifter subject I'd really like to figure out what you are talking about, I have friends with older ex's and we've had them apart and it contained no lifters. I didn't think Honda had made any changes to the 400 ex motor besides adding reverse since its inception, but maybe I'm wrong on that.

[slightlybent47]

And we lived happily ever after! http://planetsmilies.net/obscene-smiley-7217.gif (http://planetsmilies.net)

[rubbersdown]

Originally posted by slightlybent47
And we lived happily ever after! http://planetsmilies.net/obscene-smiley-7217.gif (http://planetsmilies.net)

Hahaha, I just laughed out load so loudly I woke up my wife and she yelled at me!!!

f4i... you wouldnt happen to be talking about a trx400 fourtrax forman would you? the 4x4 one? That uses a similar engine to the 400ex but has a pushrod type setup using cam followers. Just curious because the 400ex hasnt changed a bit sense it came out in 99 and has always just used the dual rocker arm setup, like pictured but the pics are really only half of it, theres another lil rocker arm in there to.

[f4iracer]

We had one apart like 5 years ago and i coulda swore we were changing lifters and push rods on it.

[Racerjames]

Reverse was indeed the only change to the motor in the history of the ex (there was either a ratio change to the internal gear clusters or a bump in tooth count on the finals on the 05+, not sure which) Valvetrain is indeed a cam,rocker,valve interface.
You may have been working on a honda with the longitudinal engine? The Ranchers, Foreman etc had a central cam on an aluminum(:eek2: ) pushrod system (welded steel pushrod ends) giving the engine the high rpm of OHC, but the lessened C/G of a central cam system. This gave the bike a higher ground clearance, lower seat height, AND a lower overall final C/G....what a deal!!

[f4iracer]

they did some carb changes too. i know some don't include that in the motor, but it's something to note.

btw, high octane runs better! muhahaha.