pipe information

[kfx450]

I am not trying to start a fight here just trying to get some information. I have alots of bits of information but not sure what to do with all of it so maybe you guys can help. This is what i am looking for. Where pipes fall performance wise. I know they all give performance and there is alot of different info on that.

example
pcs pipe: Great low end performance 70 and 90 low rpm
snyder pipe: great top end performance 70 and 90.
drr 90 pipe: good 50 pipe with stage 6

all infor will be helpful.

would like to know hetrick gen 2 falls also kool kids pipe. all major brands would be great though.

[EthansDad]

I'd like to know that too. how about you go buy all those, run them on a dyno and tell us :)

what size bike and what application (MX/GNCC/flat track) are you looking to get a pipe for? what type of cylinder do you have now or plan to get?

I'm guessing you'll get 10 different opinions from 10 different folks that post on this. If you know what you plan on running, get with a motor builder that knows the class and series and go from there on a package. If you try to take a stock cylinder and throw a $400-500 pipe on it, you will be disappointed. you need to do a number of things to the motor to get those high end pipes to earn their money.

-EA

[T@AFP]

We tried most of them last year.
Then we tried the Hetrick gen III (i think gen III).
We never changed anything else. Just bolted it on and went back out for another practice. My kids lap times were shaved by 3-4 seconds a lap.
When he came off the track I got the..."What did you change?", Don't touch anything! leave it alone".. thing.

I would try one of those.

[kfx450]

I am building a bike in steps as I don't want to get to much power to quickly.

We are currently running a 09 drr 50 with a stage 6 cylinder.

I just purchased a 10 drr 50 set of limited class. It has more power then the stage 6 so this will be our race bike for the 50 class next year.

We are going to turn the 09 into a 70. I know there are 10,000 ways to build a 70. So I am going to try and do it in stages and see how the power works for my son. I am just trying to buy the right parts so we are not buying the same parts over and over again. I know there is no right answer but if we can get close it will help.

Most of you have went through the growing pains as there was nothing out there when you started now there is tons of stuff. I have a wide variety of used pipes out there just trying to find a good starting point.

Currently I have a stage 6 street race 70 cylinder and a Hetrick generation 2 pipe that will be going on this bike with a stage 6 reed cage and stock 24 mm carb from a 09 drr90. I am hoping this will be more power than the 50's.

I was wondering if then I could add a better pipe and have the cylinder ported to go to the next step and then next summer switch over to a high dollar cylinder with port work to match the pipe and pvl to make a monster.

I have found some used pipes also a kool kids and a snyder. I am not sure if these would be a better starting point than the hetrick g2 or if I should just spend the money and buy a trackside or hetrick g3.

I almost forgot we are running HS and at the end of the year we will run some gncc's but won't be 6 until next august. Won 7-9 races in a 4-7 50 class running average 10 riders (alot of them were 8yrs old most of the year). 2 losses were water pump failures Dads fault lead the race until the motor shut off.

Sorry for all the rambling
Any suggestion would be greatly appreciated.

[kfx450]

Originally posted by EthansDad
I'd like to know that too. how about you go buy all those, run them on a dyno and tell us :)


That is why I started this thread. You know there are people out there have done most or all of the leg work on this on both 70 and 90 engines. A long time ago some one was going to do a pipe shoot and have everybody send them pipes but I never saw the final information.

[JIM GRACE]

FYI - kool kidz pipe is a rip off of the
Hetrick gen 2 pipe. So you know.

[airmobile101]

Bro, you can't build a engine around a pipe. You said your gonna do this in stages correct? You need to have the engine and clutching all built to spec to your preference before the pipe is considered. Then, you can call around and tell the pipe builder what you have and go from there. Otherwise, your gonna chase your tail. IMO

[nastynotchback1]

I have had good success with the metrakit pro race pipe on several motors of different specs.it may not be the best pipe out there but it works well all around

[dblacks]

I will only use the PCS pipe after using many different pipes prior to using it. Anyone that has tried that pipe that I have suggested to use it have given me nothing but positive info.

We have used it on the 70 Polini, 90 Apex cylinder that was sleeved to 50mm with a 45 stroke and also a Malossi Big bore setup.

But as someone said, you will get 10 different opinions on this topic

[mmsoup]

I'm with the guy on engine, clutch first

Really I believe suspension first

That being said we use a Trackside with a lot of additional engine, suspension, ignition and clutch mods. Nothing readily available except the Hetrick III and PCS (Which we have also owned) worked as well in the woods. Snyder makes good power but revs more to make it

Custom pipes are only as good as the builders knowledge base of expansion chambers and the kit it will be running

[nastynotchback1]

How do yall get clutch first when a pipe change can throw all you clutch work out the window?

[EthansDad]

on the 2010 50cc, I assume you are running the 90 pipe option on a stock cylinder. that is a really good combo and likely won't get much better than that on stock cylinder. that combo makes great top end power, but very very little down low and tends to bog down low on the 21mm carb. I don't run XC, but if I did with our 2010 50, I'd run that combo and drop to a 19 or 20mm carb. I might also try switching to the 50cc pipe (which brings more bottom-mid power back) for XC racing. when the 50s get real "pipey" or peaked out on power, they also tend to burn up clutches, not good for XC. another reason I'd experiment with the stock 50 pipe - easier on clutch life.

on the 70, someone else already said this, but you can't do upgrades in stages from stock to full tilt and have your investments come with you. say you take a stock bike and put $500 in it (pipe, mid grade cylinder) then are ready for more power. you'll need to go to higher end cylinder, which will involve you switching out the cranks, changing pipes, and changing ignition. a lot of throw away stuff from the stage 1 upgrade.

out of all the other things you listed for your 70, I'd buy the PVL first. that WILL carry with you to your next upgrade and give you a bit more go juice now. if you go away from that stage 6 top end, you will likely need to get into the crank to switch out bottom end for some higher $$, but that is your next step.

on the high dollar cylinders, you really don't need to port them unless you plan on trying to run top of pack at a national. they come pretty darn close as they are. you might want to spend the $ though to have the cases blueprinted and make sure someone that knows what they are doing can set up your squish and proper cylinder install to get the most out of it.

-EA

[kfx450]

See this is great information with out the bashing.

Suspension stock 41 a-arms and axle.
4-1 offset front wheels for less bumb steer and as good or better handling. Stick style dampner. HLS shocks (agree suspension is the first thing that went on our 09 bike.) Most of you don't know about these shocks and my mini shock comparision is very litle but these things soak up everything we have thrown at them and work very well with a 50lb rider. I have seen them soak up doubles when my sone came up so short that the bike stopped on the landing but he never came off of the bike or complaind about hurting. sorry for the rant just like the shocks. We are currently running out of motor but the suspension seems not to be the week link at this time. I know after the 70 motor we may have to go back and change it.

We like torque for the hills and tight turns. But on our current bike (Stage 6 50 with stock apex pipe) have got around it by running a higher rpm.

As for building a motor around a pipe, That is not what I am trying to accomplish I am just trying to find the right pipe for the application or one that is close that I might be able to use on the next application. The PCS and the hetrick gen III are what I am looking at currently, But has anyone tried the new Mach I pipes designed for the 70, or has one used the Faster than mach I pipe. I know the owner of the company is no longer on here but does the pipe work?

The 09 will become the seventy and it has around 30 races and 5-10 hours a week ride time for 2 years so I am planning on changing out cranks with this build. I am currently planning on putting in an 85mm rod and a spacer plate. that way when you go to the next step it is already done. I have also been told this will give us a litle more bottom.

PVL will be the next step as it is a great investment from what I have seen on the 86cc bike that I have been working on.

[EthansDad]

those are all good pipes, but again I don't think you'll get the most bang for your buck with those running a stage 6 top end.

Check with the dealer, or maybe someone has the numbers here, but what you need to know for each of those pipes is the RPM at which they make max power. I want to say on most of those you listed, its in the 13k range (someone correct me if you know better). the question you then need to ask yourself, will my top end, crank and ignition get me to the peak RPMs I need to take advantage of my high dollar pipe? likely not. will the pipes make things better with your current setup? probably, but then again, so would the pipes you currently have at half the cost.

don't mind my opinions on this stuff, I'm just a cheap skate when it comes to upgrades. I don't mind spending the money, I just want to make sure I get what I pay for, and don't over buy because my A.DD. kicks in and compels me to buy something "new and shinny".

[kfx450]

that is what I am trying to do. I have a gen II hetrick pipe from a parts bike. I am willing to try it first. I may put this motor together and only last a couple of months and we will be putting together something more top end. and then again we may put this together with an older pipe and run it all year. Just trying to get all of the information that is out there and maybe get something said on this post that will help others with the same questions.

I am not afraid to think outside the box. we are going to start with the stage 6 street racer kit. It is a steel cylinder that has very similar port timing to the stage 6 sport cylinder but more torque and a litle less top end. but at half the price how do you not try it first. The only thing after getting it is I would like to see a single ring piston for just a litle more performance. Also I will check the squish on the cylinder this week and may have it milled a litle as this cylinder is flat across so it will be very easy to do.

jayme