hard starting...

[jcs003]

i had a head gasket leak, so i replaced the gasket. prior to the replacement it was difficult to get started...now with the gasket replaced it is still hard to get started.

spark plug was wet when checked. now, if i put a lil gas in the plug hole it starts and will idle then shut off...after i get her warm she will idle.

i have stock ignition. stock reed cage and fiberglass reeds(reeds were ok a couple of months ago)38mm lectron carb.

any thoughts or questions to help with diagnosis?

[wilkin250r]

Sounds like your pilot or air screw needs adjustment.

You've already used a very simple but powerful diagnostic technique. Generally, if you're having starting problems, but the problem dissappears when you bypass the carburetor (either by putting gasoline directly into the engine, or using starting fluid), then your problem is in your carburetor.


I use starting fluid as a diagnostic tool all the time. If it starts with fluid, then the problem is fuel-related. If it still doesn't start with fluid, then the problem is in the engine itself, I know that I don't have to fiddle with the carb. There are exceptions of course, but this works 95% of the time you have starting issues.

If I have issues as you stated, I go through basically the same procedure of isolating the problem to the carburetor or fuel system as wilkin250r and you pointed out. I also make sure my electrical is not the problem, in this case it sounds like it is not.

I have found it is best to tackle fuel issues by removing the carburetor, disassembling completely, cleaning out all jets, needle, slide, bowl, float and inspecting all components carefully. I then re-adjust the float, and assemble carefully.

My experience has been 98% of the time this solves all carburetor issues. You will need to fully inspect the fuel petcock, fuel line, and gas tank…the reeds, boot & intake system as well.

Carlos.

[jcs003]

i will be getting to the carb and cleaning it. lectron carbs have only a few parts and floats are non adjustable. cleaning it and leaning it out might be my problem. if that doesnt solve the hard starting it must be the reed petals.

any thoughts?

You should have no problem identifying if the reed pedals are good or bad. I am sure I am not telling you anything you don’t already know; If they are cracked, shipped, bent (steel or stainless) or not laying flat & even, I would replace.

Carlos.

[jcs003]

now she wont start at all. even using starter fluid. time to check and recheck electrical. wtf!

[jcs003]

electrical checked out, including ground. onlt thing i havent checked is the flywheel key. i can do that tomorrow, as i dont have an impact at hand.

i am mystified:confused:

[Dave83]

Does it have good compression?Have you took an OHM meter to the stator?

[jcs003]

Originally posted by Dave83
Does it have good compression?Have you took an OHM meter to the stator?

checked all electrical and compression is 180psi.

[slamdak8782]

use a spark tester and see if you have good spark

Good compression, and electrical checks out…possibly the keyway sheared, flywheel moved or the pickup is loose or the pickup bolt is broken/loose in the case, or you have a weak spark.

If you have a second Stator, CDI, Coil in good working condition, try swapping electrical components…set aside a couple of hours, have patience with electrical issues…

Carlos.

[jcs003]

i took the cover off and the initial inspection was good. will know more when i remove the flywheel tomorrow.

i swapped a second CDI and coil to no avail. weak spark is always a possibility, but with starter fluid it should at least start to ignite.

Electrical issues are always a pain…

Carlos.
:)

[jcs003]

removed flywheel and flywheel key is good. put it back on and it started after a few kicks. didnt stay running. kept at it and it eventually got it to idle for a while. it shut off on its own.

i believe i have an electrical anomoly. has anyone else suffered this? im assuming it is stator related. stator reads 115 ohms.(within spec)

[slamdak8782]

Did you ever try changing the plug out. Also I had a ninja one time with a pinhole in the float that acted like yours is acting. If its flooded the starter fluid won't help get it going. Check the connections coming out of the stator I redid mine and soldered them and it. Made a big difference. Check for air leaks. Could be a lot of things. I usually go over all my stuff once a year you never know what someone else may have done to get the bike in its current state.

[jcs003]

i tried a few pluga and tried a 7 just to minimize fouling.

it now starts on the first kick and will idle.

i also bought a spark tester and it is definitly showing good spark according the device. it stays lite and the bike runs.

the only air leak i can think of would be a crank seal.

If you haven’t already, a leak down test is what I would perform first. A right or left crank seal leak will show up as a leak at the stator cover wire boot area (unless you sealed it with Silicone) or through the clutch cover (drain all the oil, loosen the Oil fill plug) using a spray bottle with a soap/water solution.

What do you think would cause your engine to all of a sudden not run with your standard plug and run with a B7ES…? Has the weather changed dramatically in your area?

I am curious; I still say it sounds electrical…

Carlos.

[wilkin250r]

The heat range of the plug should have little to no effect on starting.

A "hotter" plug will hold more heat in the electrode, but there's no heat being generated during the starting procedure. It takes a couple minutes for the spark plug to reach operating temperature to where the heat range has any significant effect.

A hotter plug might start a little better/easier the NEXT time, after it's been run, because it will have less deposits on it. But if that's the case, then you need to fix the actual problem (jetting), not just band-aid fix it with a hotter plug.

[wilkin250r]

Now, I DID have a problem similar to yours. I had a quad that was difficult to start, and it wouldn't idle but a minute or so. But it ran great anywhere above idle.

When I put a new plug in it, it started right up, and idled for several minutes, but then would eventually revert back to the same problem, difficult to start and wouldn't idle.

Found out my pilot jetting was WAY off, (but it was my first 250r, so I didn't have anything to compare it with). I can't remember the exact size, but I was like eight jet sizes too large.

I changed the pilot to stock, adjusted the air screw, and it started and idled great every time after that. This was on a Keihin PJ carb, so your Lectron might be a little different, but another possibility to think about.

[jcs003]

thanks wilkin. i used the hotter plug for purposes of plug fouling from kicking many times and i always understood it to better combat this type of fouling.

[jcs003]

i leaned out the carb a bit more and it idles higher than it previously did. this, according to lectron is showing it is set too lean.

but as stated, it starts right up and idles fine when it has been brought up to temp.

[jcs003]

now she starts and runs(idles) on the first kick:confused:

maybe its like a woman if you ignore it for too long you get nill. from now on i might have to give her the attention she deserves.lol.

anyway, if anyone has other input on this situation it is appreciated.

[fearlessfred]

how does the motor run other than starting and idling.does it run clean thru the gears or does it blubber like its fouling the plug. i have seen a bad stater cause problems and the ohm reading was within the limits.but i had an extra stater,so i switched it out and fixed my prob. an ohm reading cold and than at operating temp can be two differant readings. your tweaking things may have made things optimal for it to start and idle,but the underlying prob.is prob. still there .this motor carb combo ran fine for a while now ( im asumming ) .why your air screw or slow jet would be wrong now i dont know. once again im assumming u dont have an extra stater,so of coarse do all your low or no cost testing first (crankcase preasure test )

[jcs003]

it ran great before i blew the head gasket. i replaced the head gasket and it started right up. the weather was still very hot then. im going to go out on a limb here and say my carb was too rich along with being dirty.

but i stated earlier i could have an electrical anomoly. it most likely would be rooted in tha stator as you said Fred. i will test ride it tommorow and run it sunday and i will have more feedback.

thanks again everyone. lotta knowledge round these parts.:D

[fearlessfred]

Originally posted by jcs003
it ran great before i blew the head gasket. i replaced the head gasket and it started right up. the weather was still very hot then. im going to go out on a limb here and say my carb was too rich along with being dirty.

but i stated earlier i could have an electrical anomoly. it most likely would be rooted in tha stator as you said Fred. i will test ride it tommorow and run it sunday and i will have more feedback.

thanks again everyone. lotta knowledge round these parts.:D the colder weather requires slightly richer jetting and that is my reason for respectfully disagreeing with wilkin on this one.i hope im wrong and he is right.

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by fearlessfred
my reason for respectfully disagreeing with wilkin

I was just throwing wild guesses out there, only because my starting issue in the past was jetting. I could be WAY off base on that one.

However, I'm sticking firm on the heat range of the plug. It shouldn't have ANY effect on fouling when you're starting your quad. You haven't produced enough heat in the engine for the heat range to make any difference. Whether the plug dissipates lots of heat, or dissipates only a little heat, it doesn't make any difference if there isn't any heat there at all.

[fearlessfred]

Originally posted by wilkin250r
I was just throwing wild guesses out there, only because my starting issue in the past was jetting. I could be WAY off base on that one.

However, I'm sticking firm on the heat range of the plug. It shouldn't have ANY effect on fouling when you're starting your quad. You haven't produced enough heat in the engine for the heat range to make any difference. Whether the plug dissipates lots of heat, or dissipates only a little heat, it doesn't make any difference if there isn't any heat there at all. i agree

Is your plug fouling dry or wet related? Does the plug look wet, dry or even yellow in color?

You can have a wet carbon or dry carbon condition…a yellowish looking insulator usually indicates lead fouling.

Carlos.

[jcs003]

the plug was not fouling. it was apparently just some misinformation i aquired through my years in the dirt bike/ATV world. my approach was supposed to be proctive to prevent a fouling condition to eliminate at least on variable. i could guess that we all have picked up some bad maintenance habits or bad info throughout our experiences.

but im agreeing with fred here. it has to be something stator related.

[jcs003]

got a test ride today and she was stumbling off the bottom. blubbering or whatever you call it. how could it be fine before a head gasket change then just stop running right.:confused:

[wilkin250r]

Not to get too "philisophical", but sometimes you have to just forget the past, and treat the problem you have right now.

[fearlessfred]

Originally posted by jcs003
got a test ride today and she was stumbling off the bottom. blubbering or whatever you call it. how could it be fine before a head gasket change then just stop running right.:confused: i have experanced two stators going bad .one on my own bike and one on a good freinds quad, on my bike ,it happened in the middle of a 4 day weekend at dumont sand dunes and i happened to have an extra stater, it acted like a jetting prob.but i knew nothing had changed in the jetting department,so i put it on and it fixed it.on my freinds bike it took him a whole sand dune season,replacing everything but the stater(including a fresh topend because he burned up from leaning it out,)to figure it out. he had me ride it and would act like it was gonna go and then just sputter,there was no ryme or reason to were it would run right or not one second it would rev on the bottom and not on top, then it would do just the opposite a carb is not very likely to run alright and then run badly in any and every rpm range at random. i would go thru the process of elimanation before spending the money on a new one. i was thinking my description of how mine ran when going bad would help u

[jcs003]

it must be the stator. it has symptoms of a rich carb. nothing til i hit the powerband then it wants to start lifting the front end up.

i have another thought that is carb related, but i will have to talk to kevin at lectron before i blame it on the stator.

Back to the beginning of this thread…

“If you have a second Stator, CDI, Coil in good working condition, try swapping electrical components…”

“Set aside a couple of hours and have patience with electrical issues…”

Carlos…

[wilkin250r]

Interesting.

I've never had stator problems that were intermittent. I've had CDI problems that would change from one day to the next, sometimes it would fire, sometimes it wouldn't. But never a stator problem.

Stators are such simple mechanisms, it's hard to see how anything could go wrong. They are basically a coil of wire, and that's it. Either the wire breaks (open circuit), or it melts the insulation and fuses together (short circuit).

I'm not doubting your guy's experiences, but I know how stators are actually CONSTRUCTED, and I just can't visualize it. Like I said, short circuit or open circuit, I don't see a middle ground...

[fearlessfred]

Originally posted by wilkin250r
Interesting.

I've never had stator problems that were intermittent. I've had CDI problems that would change from one day to the next, sometimes it would fire, sometimes it wouldn't. But never a stator problem.

Stators are such simple mechanisms, it's hard to see how anything could go wrong. They are basically a coil of wire, and that's it. Either the wire breaks (open circuit), or it melts the insulation and fuses together (short circuit).

I'm not doubting your guy's experiences, but I know how stators are actually CONSTRUCTED, and I just can't visualize it. Like I said, short circuit or open circuit, I don't see a middle ground... well this might help .the one on my 250r had alot of corrosion and appeared that the varnish that is that is the insulater between each strand was flaking off. as far as i know each winding that makes contact with another without being insulated would lower voltage and raise amperage (i may be a little wrong on this) look at windings on the lighting coils, they are larger for the greater amperage needed to run the lights. also heat makes a differance in resistance . so if these windings are making contact and then temps are changing,i can see how the output would variy enough to cause problems. now a cdi is solid state, no moving parts and they fail to. i have had one cdi fail and it died and would restart on occasion and die again,but did not run like there was a jetting prob. I AM NOT saying that this is the prob. with jcsoo3 bike.but i am saying after everything else is ruled out,that it could be the stater. i have never took an ohms reading on the two failed units i have dealt with. i just know that replacing them fixed the prob. my responces on this forum are from 25 years off riding ,racing and repairing atvs. i do not do this for a living.and my answers are many times wrong.but my goal is to help and learn

[jcs003]

im going to empty my fuel and try something with non-ethenol. the fuel is only a month or so old but i keep hearing bad things about the ethanol fortified fuel. i read that it can cause a number of different issues. just sitting a month or so cold of effected the octane rating among other things.

Get rid of the ethanol based fuel…

As far as stators; yes “Stators are such simple mechanisms”, however; they are basically DC armatures, and like any armature they are subject to shorts, increased impedance, and unbalanced impedance across all poles.

And like an armature; they can still run, however; not at peak capacity and sometimes the shorts can be significant enough to allow operation at some level, produce an inconsistent electrical output allowing erratic operation.

Change the fuel, swap Stators, CDI’s, Coils…go down the electrical check list.

Carlos

[fearlessfred]

Originally posted by jcs003
im going to empty my fuel and try something with non-ethenol. the fuel is only a month or so old but i keep hearing bad things about the ethanol fortified fuel. i read that it can cause a number of different issues. just sitting a month or so cold of effected the octane rating among other things. NOT not a bad idea ,maybe water is an issue,seeing as alcohol seems to attract water

[jcs003]

i was having issues with it starting and idleing good. it started today and seemed to run decent.

well i rechecked compression and its at about 170psi now. checked the carb again seemed ok.

passed all electrical checks.

fred: you ststed on another thread about clutch springs giving symptoms related to my issue. could you explain?

thanks again all.

[fearlessfred]

the symptoms i was referring to on the other thread was lack of power ( not picking the front end up) narrow powerband really not about hard starting or idling.it was about the bike not accelerating. tell us what all u have changed out, have u tryed the stock carb or whatever u had before the lectron

[atv fan 28]

Originally posted by fearlessfred
the symptoms i was referring to on the other thread was lack of power ( not picking the front end up) narrow powerband really not about hard starting or idling.it was about the bike not accelerating. tell us what all u have changed out, have u tryed the stock carb or whatever u had before the lectron
PM sent Fred

[jcs003]

another thing i forgot to mention. for a few kicks yesterday it had a wicked kickback. after it started to sputter, the kickback went away. at least it seemed that way.:confused: