ESR 370PV Motor

[troybilt]

I'm interested in everyone's take on this setup.. I read alot of about the 400+ motors from ESR that you'd be better off with a Puma cylinder. I'm more interested in a 55-65 hp MX motor, than an a duner motor. What do you think of the 350-370 kits from ESR? Decent price, course I'd add nikasil and a Neil port job to that. But whatcha think? Anybody run an ESR 370?

ESR Stage 3 Kit - 370PV (http://www.eddie-sanders-racing.com/product_p/stage%203%204%20stroke%20killer.htm)

[800screws]

i think on the R central site( i think, i cant remember if it was there or here)...just did a puma motor for mx...check over there. he posted pics, so i think it was in the pic/video section. maybe he can tell u how the puma motor is for mx.

[8686]

redred55 has an amazing quad. It's an mx Laeger narrow CR500 quad with a 431 Puma engine in it. I've seen it in person and it looks and runs very well.

It's gotta be a bit much on a motocross track, though. :eek2: I'm not sure I could hang on to it if I rode it like I ride my little 250.:D

Look into a 330R fully raced prepped; offers a good healthy HP output, excellent torque and you get to keep the reliability you need for MX…

I did and at 68HP it is a beast…

Carlos.

[mxduner]

i am a little leary on the new pv cylinder. With esr's track record with pv's in mind, this new cylinder appears to have an adjustable spring to it. Could be a fix or a bandade? Also the fix on the prox cylinders, was to get the rotax setup, or get the ct setup, as they were interchangeable with esr's valve. I have heard that the new cylinder is not compatible with the rotax parts. But damn that price is tough to beat thou:grr:

The 3rd gen. sphinx cylinder is starting to make it's way out. I am gonna wait to see some reports on that, with the pv. That might be a long wait :mad:

i am looking for the same thing, a stout big bore mx grunt machine:macho

[Pumashine]

Originally posted by mxduner
i am looking for the same thing, a stout big bore mx grunt machine:macho

Too bad you all can't ride my Puma. Talking about a stout big bore grunt machine you found the right cylinder. 4 stroke power with 2 stroke top end is a kick in the pants to ride.

Sorry Troy for hijacking the thread but the Puma really has not got a chance to fly. With a low end pipe this cylinder will more than please you. You will never be dissatisfied how it pulls and pulls. Gotta be the best setup possible!

Calvin rocks!

With a healthy 330R or 350R at 68-70HP, I don’t see a need for a PV.

These engines pump out tremendous amounts of torque, you could lug around all day with just a non PV engine if it was built properly…

Carlos.

[86honda250]

Pumashine is right. I have a puma set up just like his. The two only big diffrences is the pipe and carb. I am runing the 48 hv lectron. I also took off my sheare pipe and put on a similare pipe to a trx 9 with a bigger stinger. This engine has huge grunt down low and keeps pulling in to the mid range. First, second gear you just crake on the throttle and it will wheely with easy. That is with a + 2 swing arm and not pulling on the bars just a slit lean back. I am in the proses of trying to get a pipe inbitween the esr and the sheare pipe.

[Derrick Adams]

I did quite a bit of research before I built my MX engine and in my opinion the PUMA isn't where it needs to be for general building and reliability. Unless someone with that cylinder that MX races it responds in this post I would not consider the other comments on it usable for a decision.

Myself and my engine builder both spoke with the guys at ESR in depth over what engine to build and we decided on the 330PV cylinder mated to a +4 crank. Anything over 330 runs hot and reduces engine life and reliability. My engine is built for low-end/mid-range power and it works extremely well. If I had it to do over again I think I would have passed on the PV though as I really dont see it doing anything when your riding in MX mode.

[troybilt]

A 330-350 non-PV would certainly be the cheapest option... and probably more align with what my budget could afford.

Guess, my goal is to have the 4 stroke grunt down low so in MX situations you really can't find yourself in the wrong gear... if that makes any sense at all... I mean when I rode my 450r, I could ride not faster but easier with less shifting... not that shifting is that bad on the 2 stroke, but I'm getting older and lazyier... I would also not want to worry about the tranny or adding lockout clutch.

Puma would be nice, and I've been doing quite a bit of research on them lately. and the new 3rd gen Sphinx is intriguing!!

I've been reading (on R central) the Puma's port timing is set towards the top end... and doesn't give you much porting for low-end situations, maybe the power is so great that low end port is not needed?? I would think the 370 ESR cylinder would give more porting options, i.e. woods/mx porting.

Would it be a fair statement to say that anything over 330 a PV is not needed?

Thanks for the responses!!

[troybilt]

Originally posted by Pumashine
Too bad you all can't ride my Puma. Talking about a stout big bore grunt machine you found the right cylinder. 4 stroke power with 2 stroke top end is a kick in the pants to ride.

Sorry Troy for hijacking the thread but the Puma really has not got a chance to fly. With a low end pipe this cylinder will more than please you. You will never be dissatisfied how it pulls and pulls. Gotta be the best setup possible!

Calvin rocks!

I wish I could ride a Puma to see what its like... my problems might all be answered!!!

Is Calvin out of Oklahoma? I thought I read that.

I should've ponied up and bought KSRRiders's Puma forsale over on trx250r.net!!! dang it.

[Saleenster]

for MX, I would run a 330 non PV and a 4mm crank. This would give you what your looking for. Puma tq on an MX machine would be too much.

Troybilt:

My 330R is set up with a 4MM stroker & 74MM bore; slightly under a 330R…at 68HP the torque output is huge and I can crawl around like a 4 stroke, lots of grunt.

Don’t really think you need a PV with displacements above a 330R, if you weigh over 220 lbs, I would consider a 350R/370R…

Saleenster: we are on the same page.

Carlos.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Who ever has a Puma set up, what was the cost of it from thinking about it to taking it out for a ride. How much have you spent.
Neil

[troybilt]

Originally posted by acecarlos
Troybilt:

My 330R is set up with a 4MM stroker & 74MM bore; slightly under a 330R…at 68HP the torque output is huge and I can crawl around like a 4 stroke, lots of grunt.

Don’t really think you need a PV with displacements above a 330R, if you weigh over 220 lbs, I would consider a 350R/370R…

Saleenster: we are on the same page.

Carlos.

Thanks Carlos, I'm 6' and weigh 225-230, depending on breakfast.

That was my original estimation, 350-370, but wasn't sure on the PV portion. I was also wondering about the 370 if the casting gets too thin like it was mentioned on the net about ESR's 420's... How many bores can you get on a 370? Is it one and done sort of speak?

[troybilt]

Originally posted by C-LEIGH RACING
Who ever has a Puma set up, what was the cost of it from thinking about it to taking it out for a ride. How much have you spent.
Neil

Neil, From what I've been reading, and this is what turned me off, was they are about $4-5k start to finish. Then I found the ESR 370 kit and was intrigued, even with PV it was $2k range...

The non PV kit is even better, off website:

ESR 350 non PV cylinder kit $799
370 non PV cylinder kit $949

Its hard to beat those prices, imo. Allows little pee-on's like me to have 60+ 4 stroke stomping hp, without breaking the bank. I don't want to run an extended axle, I'm not interested in hillshooting with this motor. (maybe next build..)

What's even more interesting, is it takes >$2k to get 60-65 hp out of a 450r, 750 bucks for a cylinder kit and decent pipe and you're there with a 250r. I just really enjoy the low end grunt of the 450r and I want that on my new 250r build.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

A 370cc, is a + 5 stroke crank & 350 cylinder.
The 350 cylinders starts at a 77.50mm bore & go up to 79.00mm.
77.50, 78.00, 78.50, 79.00.
It might be possible to bore in an 80.00mm piston if the sleeve it thick enough at the top.
Normal though, the thickness of the sleeve right at the top between the o ring groove & the bore is thin enough that you can chance that little piece of sleeve breaking off & killing the piston.

I dont know if you know Troy, but CT Racing offers a 410 Pro-x cylinder top end kit that starts at 80.00mm bore.
Been tryed & trued, no questions about it.
Neil

[troybilt]

Yes, I saw that too... might show my ignorance here, but I was scared off by the comments on their website :D


CT/Pro-X 410cc Stroker Complete Package......$2600.00

Highest horsepower 250R kit available with 70+ rear wheel HP.

King of the hill.

This kit is not a dependable rider - the 410 is developed for drag racing only.

Boreable cylinder with one oversize available.

Kit includes: CT ported Pro-X cylinder kit, modified piston kit, complete gasket set, Delta V-Force reed cage, Keihin 40mm PWK carb with cable, CT PV pipe and silencer, cases machined, stroked and rebuilt crank, main bearings and seals, and engine tear down and assembly.

[pope59]

you could give brandon avery a call over at wild card i talked to him about building a stock stroke puma or a esr 350-370 his info was spot on 435-623-0148

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Originally posted by troybilt
Yes, I saw that too... might show my ignorance here, but I was scared off by the comments on their website :D

But, if you leave off the piston mod & dont try to rev it to the moon, it will last & just to add, now that ESR has their 420 & 430 cylinders, those pistons used in those over 81.50mm could be used in this 410 cylinder to provide more over bores even though it is a Pro-x cylinder.

Was a 410 Pro-x awhile back I had something to do with, guy said it was the fastest thing he ever parked his hind parts on, BUT! that CT piston mod killed it. If it wasnt for that, it probably would still be running.
Neil

[Pumashine]

Originally posted by troybilt
Yes, I saw that too... might show my ignorance here, but I was scared off by the comments on their website :D

That is not ignorance, that is wisdom. I bought and tried the CT410. Will never go that route again. Rebuild every 10 hours and you can only go in a straight line from point a to point b at WOT. Meaning you can run it down low. Its an all out drag motor. Prone to braking sleeves. The list goes on.

The long rod +4 mil crank and 80mm piston will be worn out before you get done breaking it in. I called CT and they told me it was a 10 hour motor. Basically needs a new piston every 10 hours.

The CT410 is the sole reason I got 3 Puma motors.

Redrd55 says the 4mil Puma is a bit much to hang on to on the MX track. But he really likes winning. Its alot of fun to leave all the 450 4 strokes in the dust

I have $2500 - $3000 in each motor. But I have run 2 of those hour 80 hours apiece without a problem. (Not counting the Shearer inframe)

[nyceguy01]

If youre still looking check this out....

http://www.trx250r.net/trx250rforums/index.php?showtopic=7490

[buford]

If I wanted a big bore honda motor for MX only, I would choose a motor in the 295-330 cc range and I would run a standard stroke crank if you aren't willing to shell out big bucks to have a crank built with a larger rod on it. Honestly I would just build a 330 cc motor and you could have the best of all worlds for a all around motor. I set up a Pro-X 330 stock stroke motor for my brother in law, it has MX port timings, LRD pipe, 40 mm PJ Keihin, and a boysen rad valve. Compression is around 14:1 with about 200 psi of cranking compression. We are mainly dune riders but he really likes to do the tree shots, wheelie up the hills, jump, hit the drag hill occasionally and do what I consider general dune riding. This motor isn't the fastest at the hill and honestly I could build a stock honda jug 4 mil stroker motor with around 68-69 mm bore that could probably beat this bike in a drag race based on current set up and port timings of the 330, but for ease of build, reliability, and cost to put together for the performance you can't go wrong. I would stay away from stroked cranks unless you are willing to put a better connecting rod on it, I have broke 2 stock honda rods on 4 mil cranks in the past and I can tell you what you have left isn't pretty at all. I would also not go any larger on the bore than 76-77 mm's especially on the Pro-X cylinder because they become water leakers around the exhaust port. The ESR cylinder might not have quite the problem but I just wouldn't take the chance for the performance gained. I would completely stay away from the 80 mm bore and larger ESR cylinder, the inner o-ring groove is very thin, and the material around the sleeve inside the cylinder is so thin that you would have big problems. There are already a couple people with these reporting that the inner o-ring groove is breaking from no material around the sleeve.

I would shy away from the Puma, i just built a low cost 370 cc stock stroke motor and have about $2600.00 into it. I want over board on the tranny and that's why I have more cost into it but it's really not a MX motor.

I would most definately look into the newly designed CP sphinx cylinder, sounds like the final design with the larger main exhaust port with smaller triple ports is going to be the ticket. This cylinder is going to cost more than a ESR cylinder mainly due to having to nikisil the cylinder bore but you can use all your current 250 parts. I would go 78 mm's on one of these water leakage around the sleeve would be a non issue.

[nyceguy01]

If you could have built a Puma for what you are your 370 would you still have built it instead ?

Price is definately a concern when building these things but cost aside what do you think will perform better ?

[troybilt]

OK, now I'm cornfused... :D :D

I went from wanting an ESR 350 or 370 PV to downgrading to a 330 non PV, then back up to a Puma, down to a CT410 then back down to 370/350 non PV and now back to the 330 non PV... phew... that's even hard to say... :eek2: :D

I've rode plenty of 330's... what can i say I want more... I guess if I was going to run a 330 I'd probably just stick with my Tony Kellner 310 XC motor for not much more than I'd get out of the 330... that might be dumb, IDK... I'd have zero money to spend... I was just thinking for the money one could get into a 370 motor from ESR with out braking the bank... but I don't want to ride a time-bomb either... I don't have the continous hobby-funds to rebuild every 10 hrs or so.

... maybe my current 310 is the best option?? I don't want to sacrifice reliability for power. It just doesn't have the stones my 450 did... I could look at 3rd Gen Sphinx down the road...

[buford]

I did build a 370 cc Puma. 81 mm bore, 72 mm stroke. I wanted a 370 but didn't want the hassle of a leaky cylinder, and didn't want the possible reliability problems with a stroker crank. I also wanted a motor small enough cc wise that I could still run my 250 pipes. I also made the port timings very low becuase I want this to be a fun play dune motor.

For mx I would still only go as big as 330 cc since this size of motor can be built pretty cheap, handle anything a 450 4 stroke could throw at it and still be very reliable.

[nyceguy01]

The Pumas are very reliable, at least the smaller bore motors.
There are several guys out there with the 431's that are getting alot of time on them without issues.

When I last talked to Calvin he almost talked me completly out of the Sphinx. He told me it was a great motor for those that wanted to keep thier 250 reeds and other bolt ons....

He now makes an exhaust flange for the Puma that lets you run a standard trx pipe so no more need for a custom one.

Just get a CR500 intake setup and youre ready to bolt it in your chassis.

The only real machine work is to have the cases cut for the cylinder but its not too bad.

[troybilt]

Originally posted by buford
I did build a 370 cc Puma. 81 mm bore, 72 mm stroke. I wanted a 370 but didn't want the hassle of a leaky cylinder, and didn't want the possible reliability problems with a stroker crank. I also wanted a motor small enough cc wise that I could still run my 250 pipes. I also made the port timings very low becuase I want this to be a fun play dune motor.

For mx I would still only go as big as 330 cc since this size of motor can be built pretty cheap, handle anything a 450 4 stroke could throw at it and still be very reliable.

Thanks Buford... is the 330 really that much more than a 310 power-wise? The couple I've ridden didn't seem like it ...from by butt dyno...

[nyceguy01]

Originally posted by buford
I did build a 370 cc Puma. 81 mm bore, 72 mm stroke. I wanted a 370 but didn't want the hassle of a leaky cylinder, and didn't want the possible reliability problems with a stroker crank. I also wanted a motor small enough cc wise that I could still run my 250 pipes. I also made the port timings very low becuase I want this to be a fun play dune motor.

For mx I would still only go as big as 330 cc since this size of motor can be built pretty cheap, handle anything a 450 4 stroke could throw at it and still be very reliable.

Hmmm....Calvin talked me out of the big bore stock stroke style...
He told me it would rev out super fast and make a ton on top but the low and mid would really suffer...
You did it and it sounds plenty grunty to me from your description.

The last one I built was pretty much on Calvins blueprint.
+4 stroke with a 78 bore.
My buddy did the same build exactly and it has a ton of power everywhere. He liked it so much he took his ESR 370 apart and sold what he could and ordered another Puma.

We did Hot rods cranks. We had them trued and then welded up before they were ever installed.

[buford]

not peak HP but torque down low is where the 330 would out perform it. It's all in what you want. The puma is very reliable but is what I would consider aggressive for MX with the port timing it has unless you are running big wide open almost TT style tracks.

this is only my opinion though after riding alot of different set ups. If I was mx racing, I wouldn't want to muscle my bike around the track especially later in the race when you begin to wear out.

I have heard a lot of bad and very little good about CT410 engines. A 410 that lives for 10 hours like Pumashine stated is not good. And honestly; I have never seen a CT410 put out 70HP, it should pump out more than 70HP, however; all the ones I have ever seen run in SoCal have been plagued with numerous issues and as slow as a snail relative to their displacement…

My 250r roots come from MX Racing, I could not imagine a Puma or Sphinx…just too big and heavy and nothing on an MX track needs 202 Degree exhaust timing; leave the 202 Degrees for the sand drags.

I would rather have a smaller displacement engine like a 330R fully built (NO PV), 230PSI, a ton of torque, 186 Exhaust/125 Transfers…Light, reliable, nimble and fast!

Carlos.

[buford]

the sphinx especially now with the new port layout (except the triple transfer ports) is going to be like a Pro-X or ESR cylinder but better overall flow. I don't know what port timings are cast into these cylinders but I would run one of these for MX. I was thinking more along the lines of 188-128 for my mx setup but we are in the ball park.

A nice 344 cc (78 mm bore) sphinx would work good. From what I'm told, a 74-74.5 mm bore with the stock size of the reed cage is really the optmum bore size for all the Pro-X, ESR, Sphinx style cylinders. This is about where the cylinder becomes flow challanged compared to power output.

[Derrick Adams]

Sure seems like the consensus is to stick with a 330 size engine for MX to me.

Mine seems to work fine, although comparing it to a 450R is apples to oranges. Those 4 strokes will pull you out of tight, flat corners no matter what size bore you have. It's pretty easy to run them back down though and it really all seems to balance out in the end.

We're still working on fine tuning my gearing and flywheel weight on my bike but it's really competitive right now. The bike is a podium finisher every single race and I promise i'm the only 2-stroke in a sea of 450s.

TroyBuilt, i'm 6'4" and 235lb. and I still feel like the bike pulls me good.

Derrick:

My hat is off to you, good showing with a Honda 330R in “a sea of 450’s”…way to go!

With some work on bottom end power, higher compression, balanced with a little more port work, you will be dicing off the corners with those 450’s…

Lots of potential left in these 250R’s…

Carlos.

[wild250rman]

what are all the parts you are running on the 250? and what all has been done to the 450? i run an older ct 310 npv set up for 50/50 race and pump gas with a 38 pwk smooth bored carb. a boysen radd valve a paul turner 89 trx race pipe with a fatboy silencer and hinson clutch components, stock crank and rod and i am 6' 235# and find it to pull and run just fine pulls good down low with a strong mid and plenty of over rev. I ran several different pipe and carb combos before settling on my current set up and all made the cylinder have different seat of the pants feel all around and lap times on the mx track were usually a few seconds different.

[Saleenster]

I've had every motor option available to mankind, and if MX riding is what you desire, then I would not go any larger then 330 based unless your close to or a pro rider or you weigh on the north side of 220 lbs. The CT 350 stock stroke was the best motor I ever owned. It gave decent power and would pull down low. You weigh a little more then me, so moving to the 350cc based cylinder might be your best bet.

An ESR 370 would be my very last option. IMO, its the worst cylinder on the market for the 250R liquid motors. Dont ask why cause its a long reason, however its just my opinion.

I've had 2 puma's and they are in a different league but are very reliable if built and assembled with good parts, but this costs quite a bit of money. I put easily over 200 gallons of fuel thru my first Puma. Piston looked almost brand new when we pulled the top off.

just my .02

[Pumashine]

Originally posted by Saleenster
The CT 350 stock stroke was the best motor I ever owned. It gave decent power and would pull down low. You weigh a little more then me, so moving to the 350cc based cylinder might be your best bet.

I've had 2 puma's and they are in a different league but are very reliable if built and assembled with good parts, but this costs quite a bit of money. I put easily over 200 gallons of fuel thru my first Puma. Piston looked almost brand new when we pulled the top off.


Yes, no doubt I agree with Cory. The Puma is a handful and reliable in the sand (robs mucho horsepower) and costs don't justify what you are needing for MX.

I have 3 CT350's which I would not trade for anything else. (until I bought 3 puma's) Low down power PV or no PV it is your best reliable bet for the money. I would guess you would want the ESR 350 to get the best cost effective purchase.

BTW one of those shiny CT350's is not being used if you want a cheap alternative. Has a new unused piston.

[latheboy]

I am happy with my 350PV. I got it from LED. He built the pipe also. It pulls very hard in the mid range. It wears me out. I think it would be too much power for me on an MX track, but then again, I am not a pro rider. The only other drawbacks about my setup is that it runs too hot. I have it jetted on the fat side with a pro series radiator. It just doesnt make me happy that it runs 200-210 regularly, and goes higher if ridden hard. Another thing...it cost well more than what is on the ESR site (its the same kit from LED). BUT it is a full custom pipe and port job. Arlen has been great with customer service also.

[troybilt]

Originally posted by Pumashine
Yes, no doubt I agree with Cory. The Puma is a handful and reliable in the sand (robs mucho horsepower) and costs don't justify what you are needing for MX.

I have 3 CT350's which I would not trade for anything else. (until I bought 3 puma's) Low down power PV or no PV it is your best reliable bet for the money. I would guess you would want the ESR 350 to get the best cost effective purchase.

BTW one of those shiny CT350's is not being used if you want a cheap alternative. Has a new unused piston.

Tony, I might hit you up about that motor if you still have it in 8-10 weeks. My wife and I are due with out first in 2 weeks or less... and things will be a little dicy here while she's on maternity leave.

I think you've all answered my questions. This thread was extremely informative and exactly why I signed on to this forum. I appreciate all you're input.

As far as motor goes, I'm leaning towards a 350 or 330, I think all of you're advice is sound. Like I've said before, the motors I'm still learning on, ...I'm more of a structures guy.. :)

Timewise, I'm looking to complete the bike by next spring so I've got some time to work out the details. There is a new track that is opening up near me and I'm stoked to find out more information...

No I'm not a pro rider and I'm not going to claim I'm some natural born rider either. Just a normal dude that likes to ride hard. Probably too hard for a 31 yr old... LOL! I do 60-70% dune riding and that is why I wanted the extra ponies, but not so much that would hinder track style riding.

I'm not into hillshooting or drag racing, although I'll do an occasional drag here an there. One thing I've found in 20 yrs of riding is there is ALWAYS someone willing to spend more money than you when it comes to drag motors, and if I can't be the best its not worth it to me. That was real clear to me with all of the stroker banshees and Ice cube 450r's at Little sahara these days...

Thanks all!
Troy

[buford]

Derrick, you are probably getting taken by the 450's coming out of the corners because you are spinning the rear tires coming out and the 4 strokes aren't, that's why they are faster in this area they don't have the wheel spin. You can catch them everywhere else.

After having all these cylinders over the years i would still just stick somewhere in the 74-76 mm bore range for pure reliablity and honestly what extra power you will get going from 76 mm or 326 cc's to 78 mm or 344 cc's is going to very minimal compared to the reliability factor unless you go with a sphinx cylinder since there isn't a steel cylinder liner that if ported incorrectly around the exhaust port can leak water.

I wouldn't do a power valve either but I guess I could see some advantage if it smoothed the power out some but you don't need it for the torque down low.