Best spindle, steering stem set up?

[Honda 250r 001]

Ive searched on this forum for the best spindle set up for the front end of a 250r. Im getting may mixed reviews about the 400ex, and 450r spindles. I do not want to go pro trax because of the price and availability of replacement parts. Is there a spindle thats just plain superior to keep bump steer to a minimum? Im getting wild bump steer with my FLP a arms on a stock frame with stock steering stem and 400ex spindles! Maybe can am 450 spindles? kawasaki? Or would i just be waisting my time buying other brands 450 spindles for no gains? Also would a aftermarket steering stem help create less bump steer? Im just trying to get good true info on what the most solid front end set up is with the stock width frame. Thanks guys!

[Honda 250r 001]

is there no way to get zero bump steer in a stock frame without pro trax???

[89trx250r]

protrax is the best for a reason :)

[Honda 250r 001]

My FLP a arms are non adjustible except toe in, and camber. I think im going to get rid of these ****ty 400ex spindles and go back with a set of 89 250r spindles and see if i can get rid of some bump steer. The weird thing is, these a arms are set up for 400ex spindles, and they dont even work well with them! The a arm and the tie rod are wayyy off and not lined up together through the travel. I believe this may be whats cauisng my bumps steer.

[jcs003]

have any of you seen the can-am front end set-up? this looks as if it would eliminate most if not all of the bump steer. any way this set-up could be adapted of replicated to work on the 250r??

[atvmxr]

the 04-05 450r spindles/hubs/calipers are pretty popular too... fyi

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by atvmxr
the 04-05 450r spindles/hubs/calipers are pretty popular too... fyi

Im gettig mixed reviews on wether or not there better than the 89 250r spindles though...

[dustin_j]

Try putting washers under your tie rod ends (one end at a time) to see if raising the point will increase or decrease bump steer. If this only makes it worse, you may have to try lowering the height of the tie rod end mount. M@ul Tech ATV sells tie rod ends that are shorter than OEM Honda. Otherwise, you could change stem flag height, or mill the surface of the spindle flag. Please post back what you find with your setup before just buying something else, if you don't mind. Maybe we can all learn something.

Dustin

[Honda 250r 001]

Ill take pics of my front end and show you guys how far my tie rod is off from the a arms, thanks for the info dustinj, i might have to buy some of those shorter tie rod ends, thats what i need i believe.

[troybilt]

Originally posted by Honda 250r 001
Im gettig mixed reviews on wether or not there better than the 89 250r spindles though...

I just picked up a set of 05 450r spindles, well I have the entire roller quad. I'll check them, but I already have in the past, and one would be crazy to go from 89 spindles to 450r. I'll measure and post pics so you know what I'm talking about. The only advantage is aluminum vs. cast steel. I guess the bling factor gets everyone.

have you looked at a puck stabilizer? I just got a Precision Pro stabilizer and I think this will be the ticket. You can get a CCP for ~160 range.

Also note, the 450r guys are going to LTR spindles and hubs for the same reason...

[hontrx265r]

I dont even think the protrax is the save all solution and I have one on my bike. The biggest problem with the protrax is how twitchy it is due to the caster angle? which is fixed. I put a precision on it also and it pretty much takes care of it. But in reality its a bandaid fix to would could be much improved on geometry. I really think the mfg. need to think outside the box on this and they could come up with something much better then the norm. (and hats off to canam for doing what they did, I have yet to ride one but I think they are on the right track) Take a look at a few trophy trucks that are well built refined for offroad racing. There is so much more math behind a correctly built front end then what we get, and it starts at the spindle. Even the best a arm can't fix a crappy spindle design.

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by troybilt

Also note, the 450r guys are going to LTR spindles and hubs for the same reason...
hmmmmm
I might have to try a set of lt450 spindles on the front of my R.

[troybilt]

Originally posted by hontrx265r
I dont even think the protrax is the save all solution and I have one on my bike. The biggest problem with the protrax is how twitchy it is due to the caster angle? which is fixed. I put a precision on it also and it pretty much takes care of it. But in reality its a bandaid fix to would could be much improved on geometry. I really think the mfg. need to think outside the box on this and they could come up with something much better then the norm. (and hats off to canam for doing what they did, I have yet to ride one but I think they are on the right track) Take a look at a few trophy trucks that are well built refined for offroad racing. There is so much more math behind a correctly built front end then what we get, and it starts at the spindle. Even the best a arm can't fix a crappy spindle design.

I've been working on just that man... couldn't have said it better myself. The protrax was way ahead of its time, but mathmatically its not optimal.

...I just can't find anyone to build them for me...

I designed them to be able to change the steering geometry for different applications, slower and faster, i.e. desert vs. XC. Also the leverage ratio of the spindle is optimal where as the 450r sticks out about 1" farther than an 250r, which increase bumpsteer effect. The brake stay is interchangeable to run 450r, 250r, 400ex, whatever, brakes. All aluminum, and the theoretical weight of the billet spindles is 2.1 lbs.

[troybilt]

I design a long travel buggy front suspension with less than 0.003" of in bump steer its impossible to completely remove it. I used a program I wrote to solve 1000's of solutions to determine the optimized front end geometry. Sick stuff. Doing the same thing for my bike.

[Trxjim]

This may be a dumb question, but do you have your tie rod upside down on the 400ex spindle. They are flipped from the way they mount on the 250r spindles.

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by Trxjim
This may be a dumb question, but do you have your tie rod upside down on the 400ex spindle. They are flipped from the way they mount on the 250r spindles.

Yes i do.

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by troybilt
I've been working on just that man... couldn't have said it better myself. The protrax was way ahead of its time, but mathmatically its not optimal.

...I just can't find anyone to build them for me...

I designed them to be able to change the steering geometry for different applications, slower and faster, i.e. desert vs. XC. Also the leverage ratio of the spindle is optimal where as the 450r sticks out about 1" farther than an 250r, which increase bumpsteer effect. The brake stay is interchangeable to run 450r, 250r, 400ex, whatever, brakes. All aluminum, and the theoretical weight of the billet spindles is 2.1 lbs.

Awesome design troy!!! I wish those were being made! id buy a set! im so tired of this crap of bump steer! im getting over an inch of bump steer currently with these 400ex spindles...

[8686]

Originally posted by Honda 250r 001
Awesome design troy!!! I wish those were being made! id buy a set! im so tired of this crap of bump steer! im getting over an inch of bump steer currently with these 400ex spindles...

Just so I can get things straight...

Are you complaining about the amount of bump steer you observe when your quad is up on a stand so you can measure it? Or are you complaining about the amount of bump steer you are experiencing when you actually ride/race your quad?

You DO run at least a stick style steering stabilizer, right? (say that five times fast)

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by 8686
Just so I can get things straight...

Are you complaining about the amount of bump steer you observe when your quad is up on a stand so you can measure it? Or are you complaining about the amount of bump steer you are experiencing when you actually ride/race your quad?

You DO run at least a stick style steering stabilizer, right? (say that five times fast)

Well, both really. I can honestly see when its on a stand, that im getting near 2 inches of alignment changes... Thats too much! Correct? And i can notice it when i come out of corners and the front end tops out, it steers funny and kinda wanders. Also yes i run a stick type PEP stabilizer.

[jcs003]

technically alot of bump steer comes from upspring weight. by lowering the center of gravity and lowering the overall weight of the front end will grossly improve handling.
also, alligning the center lines onf the front and rear tires improve this affect.

[dustin_j]

Do your wheels toe in or out from full droop to fully compressed?

Post pictures if you'd like. Put the frame 12" off the ground with shocks off, pic 1. Lift wheels 5", pic 2. Lift wheels 5" more, pic 3. If the camera hasn't moved we should be able to see this much of a difference. 1" of bump steer is excessive.

What did you set your toe to, and at what frame height?

[D Bergstrom]

I think everyone needs to be on the same page as what "bumpsteer" actually is, seems to be some confusion on the term. I see two items that are being refered to as bumpsteer, one really is while the other isn't. Bumpsteer is the change in toe as the suspension moves through its travel. Wheel offset has no affect on bumpsteer. What you feel with a wider offset wheel is feedback through the bars. The wheel sticks out further past the hub, hence putting more leverage on the hub, thus increasing the feeling of getting the bars ripped out of your hands. May help this conversation some if everyone is using the corect deffinitions.

Doug

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by dustin_j
Do your wheels toe in or out from full droop to fully compressed?

Post pictures if you'd like. Put the frame 12" off the ground with shocks off, pic 1. Lift wheels 5", pic 2. Lift wheels 5" more, pic 3. If the camera hasn't moved we should be able to see this much of a difference. 1" of bump steer is excessive.

What did you set your toe to, and at what frame height?

The toe is excessivly ponting in when fully extended and begins to point back in again when funny compressed. Ill take pictures tonight so everyone can get a better idea.

[troybilt]

Originally posted by D Bergstrom
I think everyone needs to be on the same page as what "bumpsteer" actually is, seems to be some confusion on the term. I see two items that are being refered to as bumpsteer, one really is while the other isn't. Bumpsteer is the change in toe as the suspension moves through its travel. Wheel offset has no affect on bumpsteer. What you feel with a wider offset wheel is feedback through the bars. The wheel sticks out further past the hub, hence putting more leverage on the hub, thus increasing the feeling of getting the bars ripped out of your hands. May help this conversation some if everyone is using the corect deffinitions.

Doug

Exactly, the increased LEAVERAGE magnifies the feedback thru the handlebars...

...as the suspension moves in an arc the tierod length would need to lengthen or shorten respectively, because the distance from the spindle to the steering stem changes. You can reduce it by locating a pivot point on both ends that produces a motion that minimizes this change in length.

[86 Quad R]

Originally posted by Honda 250r 001
The toe is excessivly ponting in when fully extended and begins to point back in again when funny compressed. Ill take pictures tonight so everyone can get a better idea.

please do.... im curious :cool:

[Honda 250r 001]

heres about 1 inch from bottmoing out

[Honda 250r 001]

1/2 stroke

[Honda 250r 001]

approx 3/4 stroke

[Honda 250r 001]

topping out

[8686]

Whatcha got back there? An Agri King? (Sorry to get off topic) :p

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by 8686
Whatcha got back there? An Agri King? (Sorry to get off topic) :p

yep, 1170 Case :P

[troybilt]

I was just going to say Case... I grew up with my parents Ag dealership. They sell New Holland, CaseIH... haha...

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by troybilt
I was just going to say Case... I grew up with my parents Ag dealership. They sell New Holland, CaseIH... haha...

Yep! We farm with nothing but case, we have a 1970's 4wheel drive case too with 7,800 hours on it, original motor. Now thats a strong motor! haha

Anyone have anything to say after looking at the pics?

[CorvetteZ06]

Just an fyi, I ran 400EX spindles, JD Performance racing a-arms, on my R
And for me, it handled 10 X better than with my stock 250R spindles. Also,
Don't think it makes much of a difference in "handling" but I am also running
A Burgard anti-vibe steering stem. Good luck man.

[jcs003]

does anyone have a can-am 450 to get some measurements to see how it could be mated and possibly tested on an R?

[dustin_j]

After looking at your pictures, I think you should try putting a washer or two under your inner tie rod ends to see if it helps. Do one washer at a time, one side at a time to have a reference as you go. Put it back on a 12 inch stand (5 Pepsi crates :) ), and remove shocks so you can watch the wheel as you pull it through its travel. Please report back your findings.

I don't think the shorter tie rod ends would help this situation, I think you want to angle the tie rod more between the stem flag and the spindle. Anyone else have ideas?

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by dustin_j
After looking at your pictures, I think you should try putting a washer or two under your inner tie rod ends to see if it helps. Do one washer at a time, one side at a time to have a reference as you go. Put it back on a 12 inch stand (5 Pepsi crates :) ), and remove shocks so you can watch the wheel as you pull it through its travel. Please report back your findings.

I don't think the shorter tie rod ends would help this situation, I think you want to angle the tie rod more between the stem flag and the spindle. Anyone else have ideas?

Ill mess around with some washers and see if i can get the A arms and the tie rods to line up all the way though the travel.
Thanks

[fearlessfred]

Originally posted by troybilt
I've been working on just that man... couldn't have said it better myself. The protrax was way ahead of its time, but mathmatically its not optimal.

...I just can't find anyone to build them for me...

I designed them to be able to change the steering geometry for different applications, slower and faster, i.e. desert vs. XC. Also the leverage ratio of the spindle is optimal where as the 450r sticks out about 1" farther than an 250r, which increase bumpsteer effect. The brake stay is interchangeable to run 450r, 250r, 400ex, whatever, brakes. All aluminum, and the theoretical weight of the billet spindles is 2.1 lbs. hey,troy u need to design a way to to make the tierod height ajustable

[Burns310r]

Bump.

What did we find on this?

Im running 400ex arms/ 250r spindles. And the bump steer through he range of motion is crazy.

I need to figure out a way to reduce the amount of toe change.

[Deuce426]

I know many people have their different feelings on this.

Personally I believe the 400ex knuckle/spindle is the best. It improved on the 89 250R setup. I know it is also the one recommended by Doug Roll, who built his arms to use it.

If you are running a 400ex arm, then you may as well run the spindles too.

The roll lobo arms on my walsh chassis have the 400ex spindles and I notice little to no bump steer on the thing. I dont feel like I have to fight the controls, I just tell the bike what to do and it listens.

[Burns310r]

Agreed, the 400ex spindles are a good upgrade. But requires different calipers, or non exhistant adapter mounts.

[Deuce426]

You can run the yfz calipers which will probably work just as good as the 250R calipers.

As far as the brackets, may have to be a little patient, but I can probably get them made. I'm going to take the set I have off my bike and send them to someone to copy on a CNC.

Once they are done, he should be able to sell and make more of them for those like me who want to run the 250R calipers.