V-Force vs ESR Reeds vs Boyesen ANSWERED

[speedfreek]

I have been in the market for a new reed cage for months now. I have researched for hours on which cage would produce the most horsepower and I came across this article:

We previously have tested and compared the V-Force Reed Cage against the Boyesen Rad Valve and in that test we choose the V-Force hands down over the Boyesen. Could ESR's new cage dethrone the V-Force as the top cage? TRX Drag picTo answer this question we set up our timers and spent the day going back and forth between the 2 reed cages on the same quad. In 300 ft timed runs, the ESR cage consistently ran times .1-.12 seconds faster then the V-Force Cage. That may not sound like a big difference but in 300 ft runs that is 1-2 quad lengths. This a major gain for a reed cage only.

So I ordered one today from Eddie himself for $199.99 SHIPPED. And it comes with a free spacer! I will post pics and results when it arrives.

Here is the full article:
http://www.atvsource.com/articles/product_reviews/2001/100501_esr_cage_review.htm

[bansheeboyo]

just to stir with my wooden spoon are the pyramid reeds from duncan not even better than the mighty esr ones ?

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by bansheeboyo
just to stir with my wooden spoon are the pyramid reeds from duncan not even better than the mighty esr ones ?

No, the reed petal surface area is much greater on the Esr or v-force reeds than the pyramid ones. Maybe the pyramid ones make good bottom end? but the V style reeds are just un beatable for mid-top end performance

[bansheeboyo]

oh right cool
lern sumthing new every day ,esr reeds here i come

[Honda 250r 001]

now what would be really cool would be making v shaped reeds with the pyramid angles on both ends. :devil: :devil:

[atvmxr]

guess thats a good test for drag. would need a course through the woods or MX track to compare bottom-mid, which is what would get me to buy...

[derby]

Originally posted by Honda 250r 001
now what would be really cool would be making v shaped reeds with the pyramid angles on both ends. :devil: :devil:


I remember several years ago when gpracerx flow bench tested all the reeds available and the v-force were the best (esr was not tested). Pyramid was the worst even the stock reeds would flow more than the pyramid.

[mxduner]

Originally posted by atvmxr
guess thats a good test for drag. would need a course through the woods or MX track to compare bottom-mid, which is what would get me to buy... exactly. thats were the rad valve shines imo

The test performed seems to be dated, the VForce3’s made for TRX250R’s are (for the past year) of 4-8 pedal design with the same reed area as the ESR’s. Moto Tassinari part number V305B is the set for TRX250R 1986-89.

Check this link out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=270630343903&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT

Look at the pictures closely; note the 4-8 pedal design, same as the ESR, or I should say the ESR is the same as the VForce3's…the test compared the 6-12 pedal VForce3’s design, not the latest offering from Moto Tassinari…

I had the ESR & VForce3’s (P/N V305B) side by side 4-6 weeks ago, and measured both, they seemed to be identical in reed surface open area, both are 4-8 pedal design, “V”/”W” layout.

The VForce3’s are lower in cost, yet not the Billet value of the ESR reed cage.

I do like the choice of Anodized Billet Aluminum ESR offers, however; don’t believe you will see any performance difference between the two.

Carlos

[speedfreek]

When the ESR reeds get here I am going to do some 300' times on my ported rad valve then install the ESR reeds and record the time and post results.

I do believe the article was older however I talked to I believe K&T and they recommended the ESR's. Then I talked to ESR and they said theirs outflowed the v-force 3's. I wish I had a set of v-force's to test. Anyone have a spare set they want to test?

And as mentioned above, the pyramid was the worst. They said because of the stiff pedals. I bet they would flow great with more pedals and if they were carbon fiber. I bet they would be great with those side pedals! Maybe even outflow all of the others.

[speedfreek]

Originally posted by acecarlos
the VForce3’s made for TRX250R’s are (for the past year) of 4-8 pedal design with the same reed area as the ESR’s. Moto Tassinari part number V305B is the set for TRX250R 1986-89.

Look at the pictures closely; note the 4-8 pedal design, same as the ESR, or I should say the ESR is the same as the VForce3's…the test compared the 6-12 pedal VForce3’s design, not the latest offering from Moto Tassinari…

I had the ESR & VForce3’s (P/N V305B) side by side 4-6 weeks ago, and measured both, they seemed to be identical in reed surface open area, both are 4-8 pedal design, “V”/”W” layout.


Carlos So the NEWEST designs are the 8 pedal design? Not the 12 pedals?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/V-FORCE-VFORCE-3-REED-VALVE-HONDA-TRX-250R-86-89-/150460543535?pt=Motors_ATV_Parts_Accessories&hash=item230825b22f
These 12 pedal designs are all over ebay. Ok I just been looking on ebay, seems like the v-force 2's have 12 pedals and the 3's have 8.
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k264/pnewell44/250R/vforce.jpg

[All250R]

Originally posted by speedfreek
So the NEWEST designs are the 8 pedal design? Not the 12 pedals?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/V-FORCE-VFORCE-3-REED-VALVE-HONDA-TRX-250R-86-89-/150460543535?pt=Motors_ATV_Parts_Accessories&hash=item230825b22f
These 12 pedal designs are all over ebay. Ok I just been looking on ebay, seems like the v-force 2's have 12 pedals and the 3's have 8.
There is more to reed valve design that can contribute to performance or not for particular engine than reed area, or petal count - such as between the ESR and v-force cages, or the different versions of each. The article, and commentary is interesting, but it can't be interpreted definitively, and certainly not for every engine. Those quick articles in magazines can lead to a lot of confusion when the product doesn't perform as expected.

The newest VForce3’s are the 4-8 pedal design as seen in photos of the 250RTRIKES link I posted above. The ESR reeds tested look like the latest VForce3’s as you can see in the pictures.

All250R is correct, however; I was only pointing out the article was dated, the comparison was not to the latest VForce3’s, and if you measure the 4-8 pedal VForce3’s verses the ESR’s they are almost identical.

Carlos.

[gandgracing]

Has anyone tried the 1Dir Racing reed cage? I had a set on my old 340 motor and they seemed to work pretty good. Here's the site and what they claim. I think they are a remake of an old style.

http://www.1dirracing.com/250RDetail.htm


For those of you who don't recall that "exhilaration", here is an example of comparative Flow Bench testing for a 250cc;

G3 Power Gurve Reed Assembly 71.40 CFM
Boysen Rad Valve 250cc 64.68 CFM
Honda CR/TRX/ATC25OR 6-petal 54.60 CFM
FMF 250cc & Suzuki RM250 1987-89 6-petal 53.26 CFM
V-Force 53.00 CFM*
Pyramid 51.00 CFM*
Yamaha YZ250 1989 6 petal 50.40 CFM

(All tests were performed in house and *calculated at 10 inches of water pressure and room ambient temperatures, to best simulate atmospheric conditions).

I wonder how these would compare to each other in a heads up test; the ESR’s verses the 4-8 VForce3’s verses the 1Dir’s…

Good info…!

Carlos.

[derby]

Originally posted by gandgracing
Has anyone tried the 1Dir Racing reed cage? I had a set on my old 340 motor and they seemed to work pretty good. Here's the site and what they claim. I think they are a remake of an old style.

http://www.1dirracing.com/250RDetail.htm


For those of you who don't recall that "exhilaration", here is an example of comparative Flow Bench testing for a 250cc;

G3 Power Gurve Reed Assembly 71.40 CFM
Boysen Rad Valve 250cc 64.68 CFM
Honda CR/TRX/ATC25OR 6-petal 54.60 CFM
FMF 250cc & Suzuki RM250 1987-89 6-petal 53.26 CFM
V-Force 53.00 CFM*
Pyramid 51.00 CFM*
Yamaha YZ250 1989 6 petal 50.40 CFM

(All tests were performed in house and *calculated at 10 inches of water pressure and room ambient temperatures, to best simulate atmospheric conditions).

Those reeds were right behind the V-force in GPRacerX's test. Except they were called Mossbogger or something like that.

[speedfreek]

I got the ESR reeds in today but I didn't have anyone around to run the stopwatch. I was very tempted to just install them to see if I could feel a difference. But I want to get actual results for everyone. I emailed ESR and asked them how many cfm these reeds flow and they haven't responded in 2wks. I might call my buddy that has a flow bench and see if he can flow my Boyesen and these.
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k264/pnewell44/250R/close.jpg

When you flow bench reeds, cylinders or any component that you want to get an accurate reading of flow from; make sure you flow bench at least 3 different flow rates, pressure or vacuum levels.

On reeds, the pedal thickness & stiffness dictates how reeds perform at lower & higher RPM’s, therefore; it is important to look at how reeds flow at low, mid and high pressure & vacuum rates.

You can then determine flow rate based on the intended RPM range you are looking for. As an example; stiffer or thicker reed pedals will flow less at lower pressures than thinner ones, yet will outperform thinner reeds at higher RPM’s or higher pressures.

Carlos.

[speedfreek]

You bring up a good point Carlos. I've decided not to have the cages flowed because I don't have a new set of reeds to put on the used cage. Won't the old reeds be more flexible? And this will affect flow rate at different levels?

[leager-n-ky]

Do yourself a favor, and take all the screws that hold the reed petals on to the cage off, and RED loctite them. I had a brand new ESR cage that the screws backed out, and went into the cylinder. ESR took very good care of me, but i wished it had never happened.

Yes good point guys; Loctite all the screws is a good safety measure!

Carlos

[speedfreek]

Originally posted by leager-n-ky
Do yourself a favor, and take all the screws that hold the reed petals on to the cage off, and RED loctite them. I had a brand new ESR cage that the screws backed out, and went into the cylinder. ESR took very good care of me, but i wished it had never happened. Thanks a bunch! I will do this.

[speedfreek]

So I installed the ESR reeds today. I didn't have anyone to run a stopwatch so I decided to see if I could notice a difference. Well it wasn't a big one but it did pulled harder on top end which is what I wanted.

I think once I ditch this 38mm carb and get a 40mm it will be even better.

I used blue locktite on the reed block screws and I also trimmed the inside of the intake boot to make it flow better. Kinda like gasket matching. I used a die grinder to make it look smooth. I think it looks a lot better than the hack jobs that I have seen before.
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k264/pnewell44/250R/boot2.jpg

[brokenbones]

pm ya