Frame building

[slamdak8782]

Im thinking of building my own frame does anyone know what size tubing to use? LSR uses 4130 chrome-alloy I looked up some varios sizes on mcmaster carr and it seems to go for about 30 dollars for 6 ft. Im just not sure about what size to use. I was figuring about 1 inch .087 or so thickness. Anyone have an idea of the sizes used in aftermarket frames.

[matt250r21]

.095 moly for MX

[profab250R]

factory frame is 1" square tubing, and i think is 16 gauge which is .063. chromoly is a stronger material so you can use a thinner wall tubing to save weight. its definitely better to tig weld chromoly than mig weld it. if you cant get your hands on a tig, then get your hands on an oxy acetalene set up. Also if you tig E70S2 or equivilant is the rod you you want to use. and remember to slowly weld 4130, and taper your voltage down when you are coming to the end of a bead to prevent craters. cracks start to form easily in craters.

[slamdak8782]

hmm sounds pretty hard to do maybe I should just try with a mild steel first all that I have is a mig welder.

[profab250R]

you can mig weld chromoly just fine but tig or gas is best. If you are going to do it then I would suggest jigging from you factory frame on a nice solid table. to jig use u bolt clamps for holding the tubing at the correct position, also notching and fit up is key to a solid frame. if there are large gaps before welding you will have a brittle joint.

you can do it, its not hard necesarily just time consuming. onceyou get the hang of building a couple of frames fabrication speeds up.

[slamdak8782]

I'm going to build a jig and give it a shot. I need a frame and I like big projects maybe I can get good and sell some. Frames are getting harder to find

[RobRacing]

I get my chromoly from the chassisshop.com, they are located in michigan and have great prices about $7 per foot and varies from size and wall thickness of the tubing.

[profab250R]

the only way you will sell frames is A) you change something in the geometry to make them handle turns or jump better, or you make an exact replica of a stock frame. the trickiest part is replicating the stamped steel parts. best bet is to custom gusset your frames.

[mxduner]

Originally posted by profab250R
the only way you will sell frames is A) you change something in the geometry to make them handle turns or jump better, or you make an exact replica of a stock frame. the trickiest part is replicating the stamped steel parts. best bet is to custom gusset your frames. might need to utilize this gusset kit

[CODY_M11]

That gusset kit would be fairly easy to make.

[atv fan 28]

Originally posted by CODY_M11
That gusset kit would be fairly easy to make.
It looks like it would. But im sure they was alot of work that went into it.


Just ask Pumashine, im sure he could tell you.:o

[8686]

Originally posted by slamdak8782
I'm going to build a jig and give it a shot. I need a frame and I like big projects maybe I can get good and sell some. Frames are getting harder to find

Definitely keep us posted on your progress.

[profab250R]

what you would need to do is draw up your OWN design for gussets, and then have them either laser cut or CNC plasma cut, 1/8" would do fine but a 3/16" would be really nice. for a one off set you would be looking at $45-$50 if you order 10 sets at a time I would bet you could get them for close to $15 a set. but dont forget those are not the only gussets you need. you need the gussets such as the strap that connects each side of the sub frame where the seat pin holes are. there are others under the hood as well.

[Pumashine]

Originally posted by CODY_M11
That gusset kit would be fairly easy to make.

Yes, and if you believe that I have some swap land in Arizona to sell you (LOL!). If you think they are faily easy to make then you might try doing it yourself. But I think you are saying they are very easy to reproduce.

I have over 120 hours into building the first workable set. I am sure you could copy my set in about 20 hours of time (fairly easy). But I measured the frame and made them over and over again until each piece fit perfectly (At least ten prototypes of each piece).

Once you have all the CNC programs written they are fairly easy to make. Making the first set is the hard part.

I did not build that gusset kit to make money. I built it so the MX guys who really need the kits would be able to get them. The only way the 250r will live on forever is becasuse guys like me care to keep the rest of us going. These sets were discontinued by Wrath and any other company building R parts. The gusset kits on ebay are kinda meek and do not address the swingarm or shock tower areas.

[profab250R]

I completely agree. I own a metal fabrication business myself and yes the actual fabrication of these maybe simple but the leg work to actually develope these to work as a performance piece is more than just cutting some 1/8" plate to the shape of the corner of the frame. Proper shape for internal strucure of the gusset needs to be taken in to consideration, as well as aesthetics. Existing welds, and over lapping metal is something that is hard to calculate for from frame to frame, such as the rear swinger gussets in this kit have he notch in the bottom. one other thing is if a gusst is made for one side of the bike you need another to counter act on the other side or when you weld it up you are liekly to have a warped frame..

In my line of business it is hard to explain to the customer sometimes that... yeah it only took an hour to make and only $200 in material, but designing it took 3 hours, gas cost me $40 nuts and bolts that were unanticipated were $15 etc so thats why it cost $1000. I have tell them yeah I made $700 profit but I lost 10 hours of seeing my son and wife.

[CODY_M11]

Lol ok let me rephrase this. Cutting it out and welding it would be easy. I don't do the designing cause I don't know the science behind all the stuff you guys were talking about. Would like to learn but right now I'm just a welder and for me cutting and welding would be simple after my engineer gave me the print lol.

[Pumashine]

Originally posted by CODY_M11
right now I'm just a welder and for me cutting and welding would be simple after my engineer gave me the print lol.

Exaclty, I use the machines to cut it out to prefection and you tack those custum fit pieces in place and weld. Everyone who uses this kit will tell you how well it fits. Any complaints and I would have to make it better.

Profab250r understands that if I made these kits 100 at a time the price would drop by half. Only problem is there are just not that many of them in existence.

If anyone on here sees the need for additions to this kit feel free to take pics and show the area you want a gusset in. I was only copying what was in the Wrath kit and a couple additions.

86-87 seat mounts were next on the list. They seem to bend, wear out, and break. Not neccessarily in that order.

[CODY_M11]

I would like to try and build a stock aluminum frame. Or least a chromoly one cause mine is about shot. Thinking of giving arms and swinger a attempt this winter to.

[profab250R]

only thing i see so far is the shock mount gusset could be made of plate, this could save you money and time as you would not have to seperately cut and bend tubing. Another thing that may help sell these is to offer an added design. I completely understand the cause of keeping the r alive but to do that you must appeal to the masses. A lot of people are in fourstroke world because the performance fourstroke is fairly New (5 years) Well everyone knows the TRX250R is high performance. but what people want is that "Different" Factor and be the latest and greatest. if we (250r group) can offer the "Coolest looking" frames that perform as well as the modern frame designs. A big portion of Atv owners are either Duners or MX riders. Aesthetics are a large part of each scene. MX sponsors want their riders quads to look great and run fast. And duners want to go out and out dune, out jump, out last ,and look better than anyone in the dunes.

but with in relativity the 250r will always be a novelty bike that can perform, however I think its top dog days are over with.

[profab250R]

Originally posted by CODY_M11
I would like to try and build a stock aluminum frame. Or least a chromoly one cause mine is about shot. Thinking of giving arms and swinger a attempt this winter to.

give the arms a shot before the swinger.

swinger you will probably have issues with fabricating the bearing carrier bore at the end of the swing arm.

[CODY_M11]

For the bearing carrier I was going to cut one off a stock swinger.

[slamdak8782]

The kit is really nice if you had all of that your well on your way.

[Langbolt]

slamdak8782,

How are you planning on BENDING the Chromoly tubing ???

Do you have a bender capable of bending Chromoly ?

Check out the PRO Tools 105 bender

Mild steel is a LOT easier to bend....Chromoly isn't

I've got friends that bend handrails with a mandrel bender......but they don't have 1" dies...... :(

Keep us informed of your progress.

:devil:

[mxduner]

Reason that i brought up those kits that pumashine has was because, i think those would be an excellent addition to slam's jigging process for his frame building project, as i seen how precise they are and How much time and effort that was put into perfecting them jointly with many 250r enthusiasts.

You cannot get quality and a price like that, these days, and you Cannot get to many people to put all that together, to just help a fellow rider out, and probably never turn a profit.

sorry puma for opening a can a worms.

[profab250R]

another thing is, I dont think Pumashines gussets are chromoly, if you are building your frame from chromoly i would use all chromoly.

[slamdak8782]

Well for bends I was thinking about something like this Compact bender from harbor freight. It looks like it could easily handle .095 diameter tubing. Also thanks everyone for chipping in with the info. I really didnt expect so much response but Im fine with mild steel I just figured if it welds about the same why not use chrome-moly, but Im up in the air about that. I think for now the hard part will be making the jig and after that I dont really think it will be that bad. Im waiting for it to get colder to start cleaning the R up. At that point I can get more measurements for the jig. The other hard part is getting thecuts on the ends. I saw some videos of biycyle frames being built so I think a quad would be similar on the forming of the joints.

Compact Bender
Item # 38470 Manufacturer: Central Machinery

[slamdak8782]

also at work there are the benders that have a radius with a long handle if the piece was held in place I think you could make wider arcing bends like that on the top corners of the frames. Id like to bend as much as possible in one piece but the pieces are limited to 6 foot sections so the one big bend idea is out now. I tried making a set of A-arms a long time ago but couldnt get the bends right but now Ive got some better ideas on how to do it. I think Id have a better chance now.

[250Renvy]

Better make sure your frame is straight if you plan to jig it up. Nothing would be worse than going through all that trouble just to build a slightly bent frame.

Also, as far as welding chromoly frames - I think it's a little more difficult than an average welder can do. There is a lot of twisting and pulling of the metal when it cools.

I had an hour long discussion with Mark Laeger about how many frames got trashed and were out of spec because of the need to weld in opposite directions on either side. Arens bros, scrapped about 100 frames that were welded by a robot because it caused them to bend/twist out of shape when they cooled.

[slamdak8782]

Hmm that doesnt sound like fun at all.

[profab250R]

that bender is not goint to bend the tubing correctly. that bender and its dies are made for bending solid steel, like round stock, bar stock or flat strap. If you were to use that bender you would have some piles of folded tubing as it would crush the tube. the dies need to have an inset so that the side walls on the tube have some support as to not flatten out.

as far as harbor freight benders go, this one will get the job done, however i would not suggest using this to actually produce frames.http://www.harborfreight.com/12-ton-hydraulic-pipe-bender-32888.html

and here is a tubing notcher that is actually decent for the holesaw style notchers
http://www.harborfreight.com/pipe-tubing-notcher-42324.html

these are fine for the garage fabricator and will work with a bit of getting to know the tools. mild steel is fine to use for your frame, just be sure to have it powder coated.

if you are looking for high quality tools then there are other tube notchers such as the sheer type notchers, and JD model benders that work very well.

[Pumashine]

Originally posted by 250Renvy
Also, as far as welding chromoly frames - I think it's a little more difficult than an average welder can do. There is a lot of twisting and pulling of the metal when it cools.


Chromoly or not you did not mention your frame will shrink 1/4" every 2 feet from the welding itself. Just another heads up.

I thought chromoly had to be welded in an atmosphere?

Chromoly is some tuff stuff. Cutting on a laser or waterjet is not a problem but bending it is a little more difficult than mild steel.

[slamdak8782]

That notcher is a cool tool I've never saw one of those.

[slamdak8782]

I didnt notice that the bender was only for bar stock what i meant was something like this.

[Pumashine]

Originally posted by slamdak8782
I didnt notice that the bender was only for bar stock what i meant was something like this.

The dies shown are for bending round tubing. You can also get them to bend square tubing like OEM Honda.

[slamdak8782]

Well I just got done watching a few videos on youtube. I watched some guys building a baja machines on there, they were working with chromemoly. They used Tig and after watching the welding with tig or oxyctylene it looks like either would work but tig is definitely more optimal due to the amount of heat transfer. They said that proper fitment is the key to a good weld on chrome-moly and they are building some wild stuff on there that will take far more abuse than I'll ever give my R. Anyways the end conclusion is to build it with mild steel round tubing for know and if i get more serious and buy a TIG then Ill man up to the chrome-moly. But for now its time to build a jig. I think I wanna stick to round tubing for the ease of bending and extra strength. Pumashine you are one heck of a fabricator, those gussets are really good.

[slamdak8782]

Look at the size of the pipe this guy is bending. Yeah 8686 laegers better watch out :D

[8686]

Lol, not bad. Definitely would want to start with a known arrow straight frame with this project.

[ARC_89TRX250R]

Cool, Ive always wanted to get into making frames.

I have laser cutting available if you need brackets and gussets cut and bent, That would probably aid in the construction by far, and if its in a run of 10 or 25 it gets much more cost effective.

Bent parts in larger quantities are more cost effective too as the brake press needs to be set up for it.

Let me know, I have some stock frames to measure brackets off of if people are interested and it would give me the motivation to measure it all up.

I would love to see someone making 250R frames again or if we make it a group effort that would be sweet!

Here's a sample of some laser cutting from work for my quad build...

[profab250R]

those are some nice pieces. what are they?

also did you press them into a die or is your press brack clamp really narrow?

[ARC_89TRX250R]

Originally posted by profab250R
those are some nice pieces. what are they?

also did you press them into a die or is your press brack clamp really narrow?


They are to convert over the 450R IMS Heel Guards to the 250R, Please see my build thread for photos of them mounted up if your interested " 89 250R Rebuild Mk3 "

The break press has different blades and dies, I'm always surprised how detailed work you can do. I think ours is just quite narrow...

[slamdak8782]

You could very easily make the shock mounts and a arm brackets with those sweet.

[8686]

FYI, a few companies still do make frames for the 250R.