02 CR igntion

[woodsracer144]

ok so i got a plate and mounted it up, that was the easy part but now i cant get spark, i know people say you cant use them cause they are 180* off but even still i would think that you would still get a spark, it would just be off timing, not?

[1promodfan]

Bro I ain't trying to be a jerk or anything, but there is a reason why they say the '02 doesn't work. If your timing is way off, your gonna toast your motor.

I have no idea why there is no spark. I was kinda hoping you could get it to work so we could get a ride report.

[woodsracer144]

your not being a jerk im use to it im getting it alot with the E85 also.. but im gonna get this to work, I dont understand why i wouldnt have some sort of a spark at all. theres 2 plug ins that im not useing, one the PV servos and the other the servo relay i think... I'll have to look in to it again but i cant get any spark, i have the coil bolted right on the side of the cyl for now cause i dont have one of those mounts made yet.

[jcs003]

how is it going with this upgrade so far? if you get this figured out, we could all benefit from this. the 02-05 ignitions are alot cheaper than the 00-01.

[woodsracer144]

still doing some testing, it was way advance and running WAY hot, turned my LRD blue, I'm gonna try getting a pyro hooked up to watch the EGT's on it and get a water gauge. I'm making headway, its just little hard with not much time and it raining or sleeting when i have time.

I'll give you some more up dates.

[woodsracer144]

I did a little more testing but im still not getting anywhere as of right now im still to far advanced, Im thinking, I run it for like 5 mins and let it get good and warmed up and its still not all the way there, I have no bottom end what so ever, I was thinking that i was geared to high for it now but i get going and i was easy for a few mins then just hammered on it and i got my whole pipe to turn blue, I didnt spit coolant or anything like that but for some reason the exhaust is getting really hot, im running a LRD 350 BB pipe so i know my EGT's are way hot, and it might be that im really lean for some reason, i'm running a 35 mm pwk at the time with a BR8es plug i think, i have 8's and 9's but I wanna make a pyro like i stated before.

I will do more testing with it once i find aboot to fit my lectron on my motor.

I like neil said the 02's would work, im not really sure what has to be done, Im gonna try removing the lower plate for adjustablity and see if that helps me out any.

[rsss396]

if you post a picture of the stator's pickup maybe we can see if the pickup coil is mounted in the same location as the 00-01 stators.
If it is, than all you will need to do is buy a 00-01 flywheel (probably 98-99 would also work) to put the timing where it needs to be.

[1promodfan]

Originally posted by rsss396
if you post a picture of the stator's pickup maybe we can see if the pickup coil is mounted in the same location as the 00-01 stators.
If it is, than all you will need to do is buy a 00-01 flywheel (probably 98-99 would also work) to put the timing where it needs to be.

I don't believe the '00-'01 flywheel is gonna work. It all needs to match.

Bro be careful and don't fry your motor. I wish you luck, but I'm still going to be a skeptic for now.:D

[woodsracer144]

i dont understand why the EGT's are so hot and the motors not pingin or anything like that, its clearly off time, I just dont get whats the deal is.. I'll try and work on it some more tomorrow and see what i can find.

[hondamancbr03]

Have you considered removing the side cover, mounting a degree wheel and using a timing light? I use a spark plug dial caliper to locate top dead center (TDC) but you can remove the head if you do not have one....If you want to know what your timing is you will have to be extremely accurate in the measuring and marking of the degree wheel related to TDC.

[rsss396]

The pipe is so hot because the timing is extremely retarded.
The spark is so late in the combustion chamber that the fuel/air mixture is still burning down the header pipe.
This is a extreme case of why some motors can run all day long with 1300degrees of exhaust temps while others will burn down with barely over 1000 degrees.
The more advance a motor has the more heat is in the cylinder and when you take timing out it will move the heat into the pipe.

and like Hondaman said you need to degree the flywheel and a perment pointer needs to be mounted inline with TDC.
Unless you have a timing light that has the timing degree adjustment for two-stroke motors then you will also need to degree the flywheel so a normal timing light can be used.
Do it in maybe 5-10 degree increments up to +40 degrees and -40 degrees. just mark it with a sharpie marker.

I have been avoiding this topic for the most part because I basically said this setup doesn't work on 250r's and while its probably doable with some custom mounting this is probably more involved than what you maybe capable or willing to do.

[woodsracer144]

I'm willing to do anything to make it work, like i said before i'll make my own plate if i have to but time for me to ask more questions,

is there a dregree wheel i mount to my flywheel or do i mark on the one i have on there? I took the little stoppers that prevent range of adjustment on the stators bottom mounting hole, and i started to play, with the marks lined up like ESR says its REALLY hard to start, I dont know why, I had to choke it all the time and even then it was really cold blooded.

I called ESR and they told me that if the mark on the stator plate is to the left of the adaptor plate then its advanced when now im think its bass ackwards,

[hondamancbr03]

You can mark directly on your flywheel but i suggest figuring out a way to mount a degree wheel over your flywheel so you can see when your spark is related to TDC in degrees. Mounting a degree wheel over your flywheel may become a challenge but i think it's possible. Keep in mind you will need to mount a wire to your side cover and hang it over the flywheel...This will be your TDC location. Look up pictures of people port timing a motor, same set up you need.

I'm not sure why you are asking question to ESR about a stator plate markings being you are using a set up that throws the standard degree markings out the window.

Have you done your homework on the 2002 ignition set up and what changes were made compared to the 01? Have you checked the location of the pick up on the flywheel related to the location of the stock flywheel? Use the keeper as a set mark.

[woodsracer144]

i under stand the 01 and 02 are not the same i asked them the question in relation to see what side was advanced and what side was retart. I still have alot to do i guess to make this set up work, i guess you'll hav to bare with me, this is all new grounds for me and im working on another project and ended up sliceing my middle finger really bad on the knuckle so its gonna be a good bit before i can update you's anything usefull

[hondamancbr03]

Don't give up on this project, you could save everyone a lot of money if you can figure it out.

Have you done any homework on the timing curve from 01 to 02? I have built stroker mini's and installed CDI's that jump to 21 degrees advance at the bottom and retatd to 7 degrees at the top end, this is done to aid in the power curve. They make them for Banshee's as well.

Do you know if the 02 CR ignition does this?

[Honda 250r 001]

you should have this ignition mapped.

[woodsracer144]

Originally posted by hondamancbr03
Don't give up on this project, you could save everyone a lot of money if you can figure it out.

Have you done any homework on the timing curve from 01 to 02? I have built stroker mini's and installed CDI's that jump to 21 degrees advance at the bottom and retatd to 7 degrees at the top end, this is done to aid in the power curve. They make them for Banshee's as well.

Do you know if the 02 CR ignition does this?

t be honest i havnt done much home work on it, i do know that they are digital and advance and retard on their own as of how much im not sure * wise. some one have a 01 mounted up pic? i dont even think the pick ups are near the same spot.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Where are ya'll getting the 2002 CR250R ignition system is different from the other's.
From my understanding, for a few years now, the 2000 & up system's is what you need to get & make's no difference if it is the 2000 or 05.
Now I've heard there's just a little difference in the timming curve, but thats it.

Woods,
Do you have the ESR, CR250R ignition conversion adapter plate to mount the CR ignition to the TRX cases ?? or do you have the CT Racing adapter plate.

Facing the flywheel with the adapter plate in place & the CR ignition mounted to the adapter plate, the pickup module will be sitting at the 1:00 position.
When the ignition produces a spark, the time its suppose to spark, it will be when the trailing end of that little raised up part on the flywheel rotates past the pickup module, at the tail end, not the begining.

If you have a spark plug hole dial indicator & the plug hole is straight in on the head like the CR250R heads, all you need to do is find TDC & then scrib a line on the case & then on the flywheel to aline up with each other & then take a battey operated timming light, start the engine & check to see where the ignition is sparking at.

With the ESR adapter plate & the CR ignition mounted up together on the TRX cases & both pieces rotated as far left as they will rotate & locked down, your ignition timming on the 250R will be somewhere around 8 to 10* advance btdc.

The CR ignition has a little thin metal plate mounted to the bottom of the stator plate that only as a round hole in it, you can remove that, take it off & theres a slot in the bottom of the stator plate just like at the top where you can adjust the CR stator plate.
Neil

[rsss396]

This took me awhile to dig up but I knew I read it some time ago.

Below is a posting from a Kart racing site, now he is saying when swapping a 99-01 ignition to a 2002 or newer motor its advanced 12 degrees which means if you take a 2002 ignition and put it on a 2001 or older motor than it should be retarded 12 degrees. Which by what woodsracer has been saying all along about the motor running habits then this would confirm this.

This motor needs the flywheel marked with degrees and a timing light put on it to know for sure what is going on before running this motor anymore, all this guessing crap is a waste of everybodys time.



Posting:

When swapping/fitting a '99 - '01 generator to an '02 onwards motor and with the standard lower index plate in place, the ignition trigger point will be advanced by 12 degrees.

To correct this you can either:

1. Run the rotor without the key and replace the rotor 12 degrees clockwise relying on the taper to hold the rotor.
2. Remove the lower index plate and elongate both top and bottom adjustment slots to allow anti-clockwise rotation of the stator by 12 degrees. (this is entirely possible, but requires also removing the little hump near the top slot to allow sufficient elongation)
3. Programme the programmable CDI box to take account of the different offset (retard the whole curve by 12 degrees)
4. A combination of the above.

We tend to run the key in place, remove the lower index plate and run the stator fully anti-clockwise in it's standard slots. In this position the flange of the top mounting bolt will be sitting hard against the side of the little "hump" that helps retain the cable clamp. This gives 8 of the required 12 degrees and then we make the small programming change (4 degree retard on the whole curve) to finalise the correct setting.

Incidentally as a bonus moving the stator on it's slots decreases and cable stretch from the stator to the case grommet.

When fitting any new ignition and/or generator we always verify the firing position by testing either on the rig or on the engine using a strobe light. It is entirely possible that this will vary up to a couple of degrees from installation to installation.

If you are using an engine builder, ensure that he has verified the ignition curve either in your fixed or programmable CDI box relative to crankshaft position.

[hondamancbr03]

Originally posted by rsss396
This motor needs the flywheel marked with degrees and a timing light put on it to know for sure what is going on before running this motor anymore, all this guessing crap is a waste of everybodys time.

When fitting any new ignition and/or generator we always verify the firing position by testing either on the rig or on the engine using a strobe light. It is entirely possible that this will vary up to a couple of degrees from installation to installation.

If you are using an engine builder, ensure that he has verified the ignition curve either in your fixed or programmable CDI box relative to crankshaft position.


X2.......Well written!

I did refer to a local Kart shop that knows more about the CR engine than I, he poiinted out that Honda changed the power out put in the 02 from the 01 to be more rider friendly, this was done with several changes to the engine INCLUDING timing curve.

If at all possible i would have the timing mapped to see how it compares to stock or an 01 if possible....Just my .02

[woodsracer144]

Neil, I do have the ESR plate, and i also already removed that little thing at the bottom to prevent adjustment, how ever no matter where it turned i couldnt get it to fire again, i dont know why its so hard to start now,

It also feels like im about 2 teeth high on the sprockets or more cause when i take off i really have to rev the motor to get going then when it is running i have no mid power, It partly is my jetting is still off but i think its mainly to deal with the timing,

I pulled that plate and made a martk to replace that one but now i still dont know what side is advance and retard.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Originally posted by woodsracer144
Neil, I do have the ESR plate, and i also already removed that little thing at the bottom to prevent adjustment, how ever no matter where it turned i couldnt get it to fire again, i dont know why its so hard to start now,

It also feels like im about 2 teeth high on the sprockets or more cause when i take off i really have to rev the motor to get going then when it is running i have no mid power, It partly is my jetting is still off but i think its mainly to deal with the timing,

I pulled that plate and made a martk to replace that one but now i still dont know what side is advance and retard.

Your gona have to get or borrow one of those plug hole dial indicators so you can find tdc & then scrib the marks with soap stone to know for sure where tdc is at.

The flywheel on a 250R rotates counter clockwise when the engine is running & if you rotate the stator plate to the right, (clockwise) you are advancing the ignition timming. Rotate to the left, (counter clockwise) retarding.

The ESR, CR ignition conversion adapter plate, how it is machined, it will cause the timming to be around 8 to 12* advanced even with the little thin metal plate on the CR stator removed & the stator plate rotated far as it will go to the left & locked down.

We blew a spark plug out (from deto) at a race a few years ago & later when I got to checking everything out using a dial indicator & timming light, I found the problem with those ESR adapter plate's.

Those adapter plates need to be slotted where it mounts to the 250R cases so it can be adjusted. The adapter plates CT Racing offers, those mounting holes are slotted on it, so you'll end up with a lot of adjustment.
Neil

[woodsracer144]

thanks for the help! I'm gonna take this plate to my old high school and have some one draw it on cad and cnc one sooner or later, I'll see if i cant get it runnin today and post some good news

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by C-LEIGH RACING


The flywheel on a 250R rotates counter clockwise when the engine is running & if you rotate the stator plate to the right, (clockwise) you are advancing the ignition timming. Rotate to the left, (counter clockwise) retarding.

The ESR, CR ignition conversion adapter plate, how it is machined, it will cause the timming to be around 8 to 12* advanced even with the little thin metal plate on the CR stator removed & the stator plate rotated far as it will go to the left & locked down.


Those adapter plates need to be slotted where it mounts to the 250R cases so it can be adjusted. The adapter plates CT Racing offers, those mounting holes are slotted on it, so you'll end up with a lot of adjustment.
Neil

So does this mean when running an 01 cr ignition with an esr plate, it needs to be adjusted all the way retarded or its too advanced?

[woodsracer144]

Originally posted by Honda 250r 001
So does this mean when running an 01 cr ignition with an esr plate, it needs to be adjusted all the way retarded or its too advanced?


i think hes saying that the 02 newer is 12* more advanced then the 01 so that has to be, the 01 is just fine with what esr has it set up at, if my understandins is correct.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

All I know is what I found on my daughters R after it spit a plug out & I went to checking the ignition.

It could be hers has the 02 ignition system, I dont know, theres no date or anything marked on it.

What I did, I loosened the bolts holding the adapter plate to the case & rotated it to the left taking out any play in the three round bolt holes & locked that down, then I mounted the CR ignition to the adapter plate & rotated it as far left as it would rotate & locked it down.
I had already located TDC with a dial indicator in the plug hole & took some soap stone & marked the flywheel & a place in the case to indicate where that was at.
Then when the engine was running & the timming light hooked up, those two soap stone marks didnt line up with each other. One on the flywheel was about 3/16 to 1/4" away to the right from the one on the case, BTDC advanced.
If I had a degree wheel on the flywheel, that would be around 8 to 12* advance.
3/16 to a 1/4" gap in between the marks at the flywheel would just about be double amount on the marks on the degree wheel.
My degree wheel is an 18"er & 5* in marks is like 1/2" wide, so the 1/4" gap at the flywheel would translate to about 3/4" out at the edge of the degree wheel.

I've got her R in the shop right now, freshing up the top end & have the ignition cover off & I'll check it again with the timming light & then degree it out.

I declair you cant get no service time out of these ol 250Rs, built that engine back Jan of 09, ran all last year national & local race events & this year, & about mid season this year I could see the base gasket was pooching out so I was hoping somebody would protest her, give me a reason to pull the top end off, but nobody did. Thats the reason I have it pulled down now to replace the base gaskets, but I'm going ahead & replacing the piston, aint gona bore it though, just a new piston kit.
Neil

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by C-LEIGH RACING
All I know is what I found on my daughters R after it spit a plug out & I went to checking the ignition.

It could be hers has the 02 ignition system, I dont know, theres no date or anything marked on it.

What I did, I loosened the bolts holding the adapter plate to the case & rotated it to the left taking out any play in the three round bolt holes & locked that down, then I mounted the CR ignition to the adapter plate & rotated it as far left as it would rotate & locked it down.
I had already located TDC with a dial indicator in the plug hole & took some soap stone & marked the flywheel & a place in the case to indicate where that was at.
Then when the engine was running & the timming light hooked up, those two soap stone marks didnt line up with each other. One on the flywheel was about 3/16 to 1/4" away to the right from the one on the case, BTDC advanced.
If I had a degree wheel on the flywheel, that would be around 8 to 12* advance.
3/16 to a 1/4" gap in between the marks at the flywheel would just about be double amount on the marks on the degree wheel.
My degree wheel is an 18"er & 5* in marks is like 1/2" wide, so the 1/4" gap at the flywheel would translate to about 3/4" out at the edge of the degree wheel.

I've got her R in the shop right now, freshing up the top end & have the ignition cover off & I'll check it again with the timming light & then degree it out.

I declair you cant get no service time out of these ol 250Rs, built that engine back Jan of 09, ran all last year national & local race events & this year, & about mid season this year I could see the base gasket was pooching out so I was hoping somebody would protest her, give me a reason to pull the top end off, but nobody did. Thats the reason I have it pulled down now to replace the base gaskets, but I'm going ahead & replacing the piston, aint gona bore it though, just a new piston kit.
Neil

Hmm. i noticed once when iwas messing around with my timing, i advanced the cr 250 stator plate all the way to the right. And it ended up dying after i was running wot for 3 seconds. just died, i guess because of timing too far advanced? And i turned it all the way to the left and it seems to be faster than with the timing advanced!

[C-LEIGH RACING]

You sure the engine cut off is all it did, no damage.
You can knock a hole in a piston real easy with to much advance timming.

Timming set to high & it detoing, it will knock the spark plug loose & back it out of the threads, that is if you got the carb jets rich enough.
You got those jets right on the edge of lean, running good & up the timming, she'll eat that piston up & spit it out the pipe.

I guess by her carb being jetted so rich at that time, once it started detoing thats only thing save it from melting the piston.
Neil

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by C-LEIGH RACING
You sure the engine cut off is all it did, no damage.
You can knock a hole in a piston real easy with to much advance timming.

Timming set to high & it detoing, it will knock the spark plug loose & back it out of the threads, that is if you got the carb jets rich enough.
You got those jets right on the edge of lean, running good & up the timming, she'll eat that piston up & spit it out the pipe.

I guess by her carb being jetted so rich at that time, once it started detoing thats only thing save it from melting the piston.
Neil

didnt hurt the top ed once bit, it looked just like it did when i put it together! i was really suprised. i thought i toasted the top end. I had it plenty rich too. The spark plug didnt come loose though i was kinda suprised

[woodsracer144]

dont wanna be a prune but use pm's. I know its ignition talk but Its just getting me more confuesed cause i have very limited amount of time to come on here and read this stuff.

I tried working on it yesterday and i couldnt get it to run at all. I'm gonna find one of those things to find TDC and have to mark it out.

can i use one of the snap on timing lights that they use on like cars where they hook it to the #1 cyl plug wire? or is there a special one i need

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Originally posted by woodsracer144
dont wanna be a prune but use pm's. I know its ignition talk but Its just getting me more confuesed cause i have very limited amount of time to come on here and read this stuff.

I tried working on it yesterday and i couldnt get it to run at all. I'm gonna find one of those things to find TDC and have to mark it out.

can i use one of the snap on timing lights that they use on like cars where they hook it to the #1 cyl plug wire? or is there a special one i need

I cant remember if it is something different about the ignition & you got to use a timming light that hooks to the battery or if its just the light I have has to be hook to the battery for it to work.
It would kind of seam like all you would need to do is hook it between the plug & plug wire & then ground the other wire clip, but I dont know for sure.
Neil

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by woodsracer144

can i use one of the snap on timing lights that they use on like cars where they hook it to the #1 cyl plug wire? or is there a special one i need

SORRY, but anyway, you can use a car type. hook em to a batery, and around the spark plug wire, and shoot the gun on your flywheel.

[woodsracer144]

how many volt battery,

[mxduner]

any 12 volt battery will do. lawn mower boat car etc.

[hondamancbr03]

Originally posted by woodsracer144
jetting is still off but i think its mainly to deal with the timing


Honestly, if you believe your jetting is off then you could be wasting your time trying to figure out why it won't start when it could be flooded from kick starting it too much.
Having jetting AND ignition issues at the same time is just making this project more trouble than what it could be.

Ask for help with the jetting and THEN work on the timing....

[woodsracer144]

well i put it in storage and today got the itch to work on it so i pulled it out and started to give it another go. I took the little clips that limit how much you can rotate the assembly off before it went it storage.

I started off with getting TDC and moved the pick up as close as i could to get it to the right spot. then i tightened everything down and gave it a few kicks after about the 12th kick it finally went( its about 30* here) i little it run alittle above my idle speed to warm it up and then i took the choke off and was running it alittle above idle for some more time cause it hasnt been ran in a good while and then BLA killed. kicked and kicked and kicked and kicked and then run for a little bit then die. I cant rotate the assembly any more to get it closer to the the pick up. I'll post a vid on you tube and then share the link with you all...

in the mean while any ideas?

when i said my jetting was off it was because my timing on my OE setup was wrong cause some how or another i sheared the key on it so i thought i was off when it was just that the timing was TOTALLY gone. Jetting should be fairly close.

[woodsracer144]

vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KstEMn-gp4c