I want some ideas on what size big bore to build??? [Archive]

Higgy87TRX425

08-30-2010, 03:45 PM

Hi there. I have an 87 with a PSI 425 motor in it that I just blew up. The O-ring on the top of the head blew out and I guess caused the leak which eventually 5 min later blew the motor. So now my motors oin thew shop and I have to decide if I wanna try and fix the PSI 425 cylinder? Or go with a completly new cylinder? I'm not sure what to do. Building this motor and replacing the crank and whatever has gone bad in the tranny is probably gonna cost me about 3 grand total.

I want to build a motor that is gonna be fast like the 425, but at the same time I wanna be able to start the dam thing!! And I don't mean pull starting it with another bike! I'm thinking about going with a stroker crank and maybe like a 370 cylinder but I'm not sure? I wouldn't mind using the 425 again as long as we can get it to start! Thats my biggest issue!

I want a good stong motor, A big bore, but I wanna be able to start it when I'm out ridding it. I don't wanna spend all day kicking it or pull starting it. Thats not fun to me!. I also want some reliability, I don't wanna spend 3 grand and then be rebuilding it every summer, ya know!! So give me some ideas. Whats worked well for you guys in the past? Do you like Pumas, Sabertooths or ESR 370, 420 or 430? Who else makes alot of power?

Arlen over ar LED has my motor right now and I'm pretty sure that I'm gonna have him build it for me. He gets cylinders and does his own port work so I could have him make me a big bore? I'm looking at around $1200 he said for the cylinder though. So thats why I wanted to get some insight into other options. Let me know???? I wanna go fast, and keep it together!!!

hondamancbr03

08-30-2010, 03:54 PM

Arlan built my 350PV for the previous owner of my bike...When i first got the motor the dome in it was set at 235psi, not fun to start to say the least and the heat it created was not good for the long life of the motor. I went back to Arlan and cut my second dome for 215psi, much easier to start and I can run all day without heat problems.

It's no 425 but it holds it own.....I prefer to rebuild my engines every couple years, not once a season.

Higgy87TRX425

08-30-2010, 04:04 PM

So I'm looking to have at least 60hp in this motor. With the bike's set up right before it blew I'm pretty sure that it was over 60hp , but probaly not over 70hp! Arlen said the best he got out of his PSI 425 was 67hp. So I know that I've been spoiled after ridding something as big as a 425. Now nothing less would be as much fun. My Banshee has about 50hp and its a dog! ha ha. My "R" would smoke it!! I would sacfifice some HP to be able to start the bike and some reliability!

hondamancbr03

08-30-2010, 05:20 PM

Before i lowered my PSI Arlan stated around 62 with the porting and set up my 350 has.......I also own a Banshee running around 70 but even with the extra HP on the Banshee i would rather ride my 250R everyday of the year. I'm with you, less HP for reliabilty and an all around easier bike to start and ride.

Let us know what you decide....

08-30-2010, 06:06 PM

Higgy:

Try a smaller bore like a 330R with a custom made Sleeve & Piston as well as totally re-vamped transfer port layout, 215 lbs comp...My 330R + 4 Mill on 110 race fuel puts out 67-68 HP with a modified TRX9 Pipe (cut & re-welded center section & stinger) & 40.50MM Tapered Bore Carb...PM sent.

Pumashine

08-30-2010, 07:10 PM

Originally posted by Higgy87TRX425
So I'm looking to have at least 60hp in this motor. With the bike's set up right before it blew I'm pretty sure that it was over 60hp , but probaly not over 70hp! Arlen said the best he got out of his PSI 425 was 67hp. So I know that I've been spoiled after ridding something as big as a 425. Now nothing less would be as much fun.

Pete at Hybrid builds the fastest Puma's on the west coast. He is located in Camas probably 30 minutes away from you. He built my last two 431 Pumas. He balanced the crank on my stock stroke 408 Puma. I think I am getting 80 horsepower on gas. Don't have any problem starting. Oh yeah, and I have the slower ones.

He will cut your dome to whatever compression ratio you want if starting is a problem for you. You are running a cr250 ignition aren't you? One of his first Puma's has run over 200 gallons of fuel without a problem. I believe the top end is $1200. And it also polishes up nice.

http://i38.tinypic.com/2pynsxx.jpg

08-30-2010, 07:41 PM

That 431 is a beast...knowing the HP & torque my 330R puts out, I can’t imagine the HP the Puma 431 is capable of producing; the torque output must be amazing! Should be over 90 HP on race fuel once tuned...

I do worry at +90 HP if the trans/gears will hold up…that is almost 3x's what the 250R bottom end/cases were designed to sustain.

atvmxr

08-30-2010, 07:43 PM

you could put a 530cc zilla motor in there... :D

Saleenster

08-31-2010, 01:56 AM

Originally posted by acecarlos
That 431 is a beast...knowing the HP & torque my 330R puts out, I can’t imagine the HP the Puma 431 is capable of producing; the torque output must be amazing! Should be over 90 HP on race fuel once tuned...

I do worry at +90 HP if the trans/gears will hold up…that is almost 3x's what the 250R bottom end/cases were designed to sustain.

I run nothing but OEM cases, gears, clutch, clutch plates and OEM springs in my Puma.

There is no 330/370 that will feel like a 400+cc Puma. The reason is quite simple, most fail to understand that with a big bore, you achieve torque, and your horsepower curve is much broader then any Pro x tpye cylinder. I've had every combination of 250R that is out there, and the Puma by far is heads and shoulders above anything I have yet to own for a 2 smoke single.

I would also recommand going to Pete in Camas. There are 3 super Honda builders for the 250R in the country....Dennis Packard, Nate McCoy and Pete. Unless your a good friend of Packard, you wont get his best work, so probably not an option.

I have yet to see a race gas Puma put 90 rwhp down. Alky yes, but not on gas without a power adder

Saleenster

08-31-2010, 01:59 AM

Originally posted by atvmxr
you could put a 530cc zilla motor in there... :D

and watch decent built 330's smoke it.....no thanks

atvmxr

08-31-2010, 06:36 AM

Originally posted by Saleenster
and watch decent built 330's smoke it.....no thanks

LOL!! ignorant...

carry on :devil:

hondamancbr03

08-31-2010, 09:21 AM

[i] I wanna go fast, and keep it together!!! [/B]

Higgy87TRX425,
you need to decide what kind of fast do you want? Hill racing with Joe blow fast or Dune fest/Sand fest 300ft off the lights kind of fast? Play bike with speed or????

Saleenster mentioned some great builders, they are known for building 300ft bikes.....Before i built my own motors I would find a builder that was known for building motors for the type of riding i do. In short, i wouldn't have Alran build me a drag bike, and i wouldn't have Packard build me a MX bike. I know both can build either style but they are both known and have winners to back what they are best at.

Saleenster/Pumashine,
do either of you have the port numbers that come out of the box with a Puma?
Thanks

troybilt

08-31-2010, 09:25 AM

Can a Puma be built reliable enough for MX style riding? Can they be built with a low-end porting configuration? I've always considered the Pumas as a primarily drag/duner motors... sorry for my ignorance. I'm intrigued now...

hondamancbr03

08-31-2010, 09:35 AM

Originally posted by troybilt
I've always considered the Pumas as a primarily drag/duner motors... sorry for my ignorance. I'm intrigued now...

My thoughts exactly.....With the Cheetah cylinders for our Banshee's we can set a 4ml Cheetah top end on a 5ml stroker crank and regain some of the bottom to make one hell of a play bike that retains that pull your arms off top end!
No reason you can't do the same with a Puma if the port timing out of the box is set to high.

Damn, i hate finding something i want but don't need but have to have it!! Thanks Pumashine!!

C-LEIGH RACING

08-31-2010, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by hondamancbr03
Higgy87TRX425,
you need to decide what kind of fast do you want? Hill racing with Joe blow fast or Dune fest/Sand fest 300ft off the lights kind of fast? Play bike with speed or????

Saleenster mentioned some great builders, they are known for building 300ft bikes.....Before i built my own motors I would find a builder that was known for building motors for the type of riding i do. In short, i wouldn't have Alran build me a drag bike, and i wouldn't have Packard build me a MX bike. I know both can build either style but they are both known and have winners to back what they are best at.

Saleenster/Pumashine,
do either of you have the port numbers that come out of the box with a Puma?
Thanks

This is some good advice right here that you can take & put in the bank, read it & read it well.
Neil

buford

08-31-2010, 12:05 PM

It sounds like you want a good all around duner that you can beat a few people on at the hill but then go off and jump a few razorbacks, hit the fast trails, do some tree shots, etc. This is my view of a good all around general duner.

If this is the case, I would suggest taking your PSI cylinder over to Pete at Hybrid Engineering in Camas so he can take a look. He doesn't just do drag motors, he will build what ever it is you want. I would see what it would take to fix the cylinder you have first, then have it set up correctly so the bottom end can live, and if you could fix the dial a dome head to work correctly, it could probably be a decent motor.

That being said, if you go with a ESR cylinder like LED is going to use, I wouldn't go over the 78 mm bore. I saw (in my hands) the 420 cc 81 mm bore ESR cylinder and sent it back. The cylinder is too thin around the sleeve and will cause problems. Really the 76 mm bore is about as safe as you can be and that's why Arlan uses this in combination with a 4 mil stroke to get is 350 cc motor.

Port timing for puma cylinders are in the 190-192 range out of the box for exhaust port and 128 on the transfers so they are a bit more aggressive but the new ESR cylinders are in this range as well. I have Pete building me (it's done) a 371 cc puma, it's a 81 mm bore, 72 mm stroke, 190-128 (transfer timing) motor for a all around dune motor. I'm going to run race gas so compression will be set at around 14:1. Pete did a little tweeking on the cylinder to help the low end power a bit more so we will see what happens. There is a guy on trx250r riders that has a 431 puma that rides mx and now that he has the right combination loves his bike. Pumashine does the same kind of duning that I want to do and discribed with his 431 and he loves it as well. It's just taken awhile to figure out how to make these things work for other things than drag racing.

I suggest you give Pete a call, he has built a bunch of these motors now and get a second oppinion before you drop a bunch of cash somewhere.

atvmxr

08-31-2010, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by troybilt
Can a Puma be built reliable enough for MX style riding? Can they be built with a low-end porting configuration? I've always considered the Pumas as a primarily drag/duner motors... sorry for my ignorance. I'm intrigued now...

what buford said. on the other site there is a thread with a MX puma. with the larger motors they inheritly have more bottom end and so the porting can be more focused on midrange without losing lowend grunt.

big bores are dangerous though, they can make what used to be a snappy 250cc seem underpowered and peaky.. :D

troybilt

08-31-2010, 01:17 PM

I guess what I mean, is the low end on these motors were meant to handle 250cc, going from 250, maybe 28 hp to over 60hp even upwards of 80hp... I guess that is asking alot from those little gears. Reminds me of the early 80's in the buggies guys running 300hp motors on VW transmissions and they were expected to rebuild them every ride. I'm curious if the reliability is there on the lower end with the big bores, or do you have to baby it i.e. don't land off a jump under power, etc... You all seem to have good success with them though, I might have to reconsider one of these.

hondamancbr03

08-31-2010, 01:17 PM

http://saberracing.com/index.php?id=2,7,0,0,1,0 . . . . . . If money isn't the issue and only size matters.

08-31-2010, 01:20 PM

Understood; I don’t expect a 330R to compare with a 430R in any arena. I am surprised that 90 HP is not achievable with 430CC’s when 68 HP on race fuel is for a 330R fairly easily by the best builders.

I have used & raced against engines built by Hybrid Engineering, Dennis Packard, Nate McCoy…all solid builders, however; they tend to build the same “cookie’ cutter combinations. I look for a different set up; one that will put me a head of the pack or at least different from everyone else.

BDT Motorsports (909-802-6516) built my 330R + 4 Mill and is a good example of “different”, not your “cookie cutter” 330R. It easily puts out 68 HP on race fuel with only 215 PSI comp, has a good broad power curve for a 330R, starts easily and is very reliable…yet; the insides are anything like what everyone else builds; Aluminum Hard-chromed Sleeve running a custom made for BDT Motorsports (very light-almost stock Honda weight) Wossner piston, the cylinder started out as a Pro-X, however; all the transfers, intake, and ports are totally machined different than standard Pro-X, ESR or Puma cylinder…this 330R simply rips!

Currently; I am having BDT Motorsports build me a 360R based on a 78MM + 4 Mill, same layout as my 330R (custom Aluminum-Hard Chromed sleeve, Custom Pro-X cylinder, Machined Transfers, Custom Woosner Piston, ect…); expected HP according to BDTM is 78-79. This engine is almost complete, will be on the Dyno after Labor Day.

Here is the kicker: My next project will be to have BDT Motorsports build me a 430R, not on a Puma cylinder, on their own cylinder casting they originally played with in the 90’s. I have talked the owner into dusting off the old castings he has laying around in the back of the shop and building me a 430R…I am very excited about this particular build, having seen these cylinders run in the early 90’s as pavement drag set ups here in SoCal; I can assure you they are monsters.

BDT Motorsports has guaranteed it will put out over 90 HP on 110 race fuel with a very broad power curve or it will not leave the shop.

Exiting times in 250R land! Or I should say 430R…

buford

08-31-2010, 01:30 PM

Arlan will tell you that the puma cylinder is a drag cylinder and doesn't want to use them. I would tend to agree that the Puma in it's as cast port timings is beginning to be on the dune port side vs MX port and I would really love to see these cast in the 188 degree range on the exhaust and 128 on the transfers and let the builder raise the exhaust from there. These cylinders have a very large total port area that the normal way of thinking when porting a honda based cylinder needs to be thrown out the window to a point at least this is my way of thinking with the pee sized brain I have. I think you can make these run hard with low port timings and still have great all around power. For the very large motors, there isn't a real good in frame pipe and all there is really for carbs is large lectrons and these are really designed for drag racing. That's why I went with a smaller bore motor since it appears I can use a 250 based pipe and carb and make good power, the 370 pro-x based cylinders did and I can have the reliability of the stock stroke and still get 370 ccs

Higgy87TRX425

08-31-2010, 02:17 PM

Damm! I didn't expect that much info in just under 24hrs. Thanks guys! So it sounds like i should give Pete a call!

I'm really into building the ultimate dunner! I just got my Roll Design Lobo MX Chassis last week. So I'm extremely anxious to get it going. I'm gonna take my frame to the powder coat shop real soon and I'd like to get my motor work under way as soon as possible! I like to jump, free ride and do a little drag racing, but dragging isn't my main concern. I'd like to build an all around great bike! The one I've wanted ever since I first saw 250r's smoking Banshee Big Bores in Glamis years ago!! I loved every minute of it! Especially when my buddy kept gettin more and more pissed off when he couldn't beat that "R"! Then when he asked the guy what had been done to his motor the guy wouldn't tell him he just replied " Its just a Honda" Ha Ha.

So Last time I had a bike powder coated I took it to Portland Powder coating on like 25th in Holegate. They took forever, lost some hardware and seem to miss quite a few spots! so I'm also looking for another Paint shop? If You guys could reccomend a Good place to get some Blue metallic, or Candy blue powder coat done that would be great! I'm gonna have some chromming done and would like a few options of a good reliable chrome shop thats not to expensive. I know how much it can cost if you don't work with the right people. I don't mind spending good money. I just don't like to get taxed!

So give me other ideas guys and thanks for the info so far!

08-31-2010, 02:31 PM

From my experience; cylinders ported in the 188 degree EX & 128 degree TR range produce the best all around dune riding combination for bore sizes in the 250CC to 330CC range...

At 188/128 degrees; it is still dune able and plenty fast for the occasional hill drag racing scene, however; as pointed out by everyone else, it is very hard to have two alternatives, a drag and a dunning machine in one.

Higgy87TRX425

08-31-2010, 02:39 PM

When it comes to the degrees or port angles, I don't know to much. I understand what you're talking about, but I don't have any knowledge about what degrees and angles I should be going for. Thats why I asked everyone for Big Bore options. I'm trying to learn as much as I can about it before I build this motor so I can achieve what I'm looking for and be pleased with the results.

buford

08-31-2010, 03:10 PM

the bigger the bore, the slightly more radical you can go on the port timings and still achieve a good fun to ride bottom end that has good throttle response. Port width and how the ports are angled to release their charge along with how the cylinder head dome is cut and it's squish band width also comes into play but we aren't getting that far in depth here but for general play riding and MX, the 188-128 is what most builders go for. I wanted to go this route with the 370 puma I built but the as cast port timings are just a bit too radical so I had to settle for 190-128. I have had motors up as far as 192-128 and still have very good bottom end but you don't need that much port timing to have a motor make good upper end power.

Higgy87TRX425

08-31-2010, 03:32 PM

I was on E-bay just a moment ago and I found a 330 motor built by LED and it looks pretty sick! The guy says its brand new, but I find it hard to believe that its never been ran??? the first thing that I'd wanna do when I get my new motor is start the thing!!! He's lookin to get 1700 out of it. Do you think that its worth it???

hondamancbr03

08-31-2010, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by Higgy87TRX425
So Last time I had a bike powder coated I took it to Portland Powder coating on like 25th in Holegate. They took forever, lost some hardware and seem to miss quite a few spots! so I'm also looking for another Paint shop? If You guys could reccomend a Good place to get some Blue metallic, or Candy blue powder coat done that would be great! I'm gonna have some chromming done and would like a few options of a good reliable chrome shop thats not to expensive. I know how much it can cost if you don't work with the right people. I don't mind spending good money. I just don't like to get taxed!

So give me other ideas guys and thanks for the info so far!

Blakely Kustom Koatings in Clackamas.....Yes, spelled with a "K"

Oregon Platting on the eastside 2 blocks or so south of burnside....Best Chrome shop in town from what the classic car builders say. They have chromed every bike i've ever had and did a great job.

Tufcoat in Portland area...Done many quad frames and a couple sandrail frames for me.

Higgy87TRX425

08-31-2010, 03:53 PM

Thanks for the tips on paint and chrome! I need all the help I can get. I hate waiting and I like a good job done if I'm spending good money, ya know. 9 weeks I think is a long time to wait for A frame. Thats how long I waited last time. Never again, at least through that shop, Portland Powdercoating.

08-31-2010, 03:54 PM

My advise; you sound like you want an engine with more power than an LED 330R, maybe it will put out 58-60 HP, not much done to this engine to get you into the 68 HP range or more. From the sound of what you have said; I would not go with any engine combination from any builder that will not get you +75 HP…

My BDT Motorsports 360R being built for me will put out 78 HP on 110 race fuel with the right pipe & carburetor, however; a BDTM 360R 78HP engine will cost you a lot more than $1700…

Talk to your favorite builder; ask then to guarantee the build HP range, if they build you a complete 360-370CC engine with Pipe & Carb, get HP & Torque numbers, tell them if they don’t meet the numbers quoted, you don’t want the engine package…if they know their stuff, they will quote you realistic numbers they can achieve and you can verify on their Dyno as well as an independent source.

All my builds done by BDTM were guaranteed this way…

atvmxr

08-31-2010, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by troybilt
... I guess that is asking alot from those little gears. . I'm curious if the reliability is there on the lower end with the big bores, or do you have to baby it i.e. don't land off a jump under power, etc... .

I am curious about this too. there seemed to be some posts on the other site saying that rod length (yz490 or KTM rod for example) would somehow help the gears last, but a 330 short rod or the shorter rod PUMAs would be really hard on the transmission...

a few years ago it seemed that anything much over a 310 was very hard on the transmission and I have stayed away from a large cc 250r based motor and thus far my conclusion is to just stick a 500cc motor in there (zilla or a CB'd CR500) and then the rest of the motor is up to the task of dealing with the power....

hondamancbr03

08-31-2010, 03:56 PM

Blakely is a pretty cool guy.....Now Oregon plating can take a while with your parts. They have a large demand from the car builders so you might want to look around if you're in a rush. Cascade can probably take care of you but open your wallet!!

Do you have a list of parts on that eBay motor?

Higgy87TRX425

08-31-2010, 04:02 PM

Oh I'm still getting a motor built. I'm just anxious to ride. I realize a 330 is probably to small for what I'm wanting, but its always nice to have a back-up motor, in case it grenades like my last one, oops! Plus it would be nice to have a big 425 or 431 Puma and then build that 330 into a 370 stroker or something. I'd like to be able to compare it to another motor. If I had 2 then I'd always have my bike together and running I wouldn't miss the summer season. Like I'm going to this year!! I could just switch motors.

Higgy87TRX425

08-31-2010, 04:04 PM

That e-bay motor has a parts list with it but I can't see it from the photos. I would like to learn a little more about it. Yeah I took my Banshee to Cascade 2 days and $900 dollars later my bike was fixed. It has a new oil leak though, they specifically said "we didn't touch the bottom end of this motor" But it now leaks.

hondamancbr03

08-31-2010, 04:43 PM

Originally posted by Higgy87TRX425
That e-bay motor has a parts list with it but I can't see it from the photos. I would like to learn a little more about it. Yeah I took my Banshee to Cascade 2 days and $900 dollars later my bike was fixed. It has a new oil leak though, they specifically said "we didn't touch the bottom end of this motor" But it now leaks.

Ouch!! Not to get off subject but what did they do for $900?

Higgy87TRX425

08-31-2010, 05:30 PM

Bent me over without any lube! They could have at least used the oil that is now leakiong out of the bottom end!

Cascade took my bike in to fix my carbs and seal up an intake leak because it was sucking air and back firing. They pulled the motor, sealed up the bottom end, and when they we're putting the topend back together they found out that the motor had 4mil pistons in it and its a stock 350. Except for port work and coolhead. So it got a hone, new pistons, gaskets and copuless amounts of silicone. I noticed that the bottom end was leaking about a week after it was returned. I haven't even brought it to there attention yet. It runs great and they already specifically said " we didn't touch the bottom end and we can't gaurantee anything in the bootom end of this motor" so I figure that they would just deny it anyway. I think that I'd be wasting my time. So I'll just go someplace else!!! Unless I need something ASAP or if I need a seatcover! LOL.

cataway

08-31-2010, 05:36 PM

me i'm thinking ....JB weld ,not to much of the stuff just enough to seal the leak .
or is it a seal ?

Pumashine

08-31-2010, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by troybilt
I guess what I mean, is the low end on these motors were meant to handle 250cc, going from 250, maybe 28 hp to over 60hp even upwards of 80hp... I guess that is asking alot from those little gears. You all seem to have good success with them though, I might have to reconsider one of these.

Saleen traded in his 200+ gallon used Puma for the Superpuma with race porting built by Hybrid. So I guess I'm the only one left with a superior low end dune machine that can drag in a moments notice.

I raced a 450 last weekend. By the time he reached 2nd gear I had shifted into 3rd and had to keep the wheeling down by going into 4rth. Needless to say I was ahead the whole time. I don't have to baby this Puma whatsoever. If in question just roll on the throttle and it will pull until you cannot hang on anymore.

Redred55 on the other site races his 431 MX with a LRD bigbore pipe. He does not have any complaint about lowend power whatsoever. He is having a heck of a time trying told hold onto this beast. No matter what gear your in all you need to do is roll on the throttle.

The only problem I see with this cylinder is the drag racing crowd telling you what to do to make it work. I bought 2 Shearer inframes pipes at $500 each. Its the only pipe available to fit the Puma. Low and behold it does not work worth a spit on the bottom end. I jetted for 8 to 10 hours even frying the tab on the sparkplug. Unable to jet this thing for bottom end I find out from Shearer its just not gonna work.

A $1000 poorer and very PO'ed I said x-that and put on the PT type 6 pipe. Got more bottom end than I could ever need . Still revs to the moon. I can't wait to try the new ESR TRX9R on the project build. There is not a good all around pipe built for the Puma yet. For now you just got to "git er done" and do it yourself

08-31-2010, 07:34 PM

How about having a hand made cone rolled pipe for the Puma...pipe builders should know how to design and spec a pipe out for the power curve you are looking for regarless of the cylinder...

hondamancbr03

08-31-2010, 11:01 PM

Puma shine,
what are you running for a transmission? Yukon or stock? I really enjoy my 350PV but you make that Puma sound like a great play bike and since you have already worked out all the kinks for us:)

I'm with Carlos.....If a puma was mounted on my motor i would probably call Shear or Arlan and ask for a pipe made to fit my engine set up.

08-31-2010, 11:24 PM

hondamancbr03; when I get my +430CC, it will have a custom pipe built specially for it...Shear is a good choice. I once (a few years ago) asked Arlan to build me a custom ATC250R pipe for one of his 350CC engines, he told me he needed an ATC250R to model from and asked if I would be willing to ship my trike to him; I had Shear build one and it was an awesome pipe...

troybilt

09-01-2010, 06:55 AM

Right now, I'm kind of sold on the Puma. I've got 3 motors why not make one a beast... lol! I want the torque I had with my 450r, but 2 stroke simplicity and roll on power.

If you don't mind me asking, what's it cost to build a Puma? start to finish...

What's the smallest bore Puma? (I'll do some research on it... thanks in advance)

EDIT: I just read anywhere from $2500 to $5000 for starters... won't be doing that right away for sure, but its moving up on the list... LOL!!

Pumashine

09-01-2010, 07:38 AM

Originally posted by hondamancbr03
Puma shine,
what are you running for a transmission?

If a puma was mounted on my motor i would probably call Shear or Arlan and ask for a pipe made to fit my engine set up.

Stock tranny. Broke second gear once. Tried to start in second and did not have it shifted all the way. You will want to get second back cut if you start in that gear.

Matt Shearer got so many complaints about the Puma inframe he said he would not build them any more. He says there is no problem with the out of frame. It gives the most horsepower available.

Its hard to work with the companies that use stamped pipe parts. They cannot alter the configuration much. The guys who do the hand rolled pipes are the key to making a fat pipe with lots of bottom end. Of course you need the 1 1/8" ID stinger if it is not going to choke the Puma.

The pipes will be around $500 but I would buy one in a heartbeat. The ESR TRX9R comes around to close to the cylinder. On the puma it runs right into the coolant line. Then you have to cut the stinger off at the weld and sand it until the 1 1/8" stinger butts up to it. The elbow above is the 1 1/8". The piece to the left is the original stinger.

http://i54.tinypic.com/2vkgmlv.jpg

To save alot of time and work it would be great to get just one guy to do Puma pipes!

buford

09-01-2010, 08:58 AM

to build a large bore puma (over 400 cc's) correctly and make it last, it's going to cost you around $4,000.00. The crank must be balanced for the 85 mm piston, you must run a minimum of a KTM 250/300 rod, if you are going to make this a dune quad without running a override transmission you will need to get a yukon gearset and back cut some of the gears then go ahead and cryo treat them just in case. If anyone is going to do this, you better get your yukon gear set now, the company with them are not making anymore once they are out. Will need a lockup clutch as well and don't skimp on this, you will burn through clutches before you know what hit you.

Like Pumashine said, shearer won't make a good in frame pipe, doesn't want to spend the R&D time. LED told me this cylinder is a drag cylinder and wasn't interested in making a pipe either. that's why I went with a smaller bore motor, can use a 250 based pipe with a larger stinger, probably won't need a lockup clutch, didn't need to balance the crank (stock stroke) and faster than a Pro-X based 370 plus way more reliability the way this cylinder is designed with a nikisil bore, no water leaks, lower compression, etc.

accarlos, keep us posted on this cylinder you are going to use on this 430 you are building. I would love to see a picture of it.

SilverLake250R

09-01-2010, 09:12 AM

buford, are you/did you use Yukons or back cut any gears with your "smaller" Puma?

buford

09-01-2010, 09:23 AM

I did use yukon gears on this build and cryoed the gears. Problem with the yukon's, they only work with the 88-89 tranny's so if you have a 86-87 tranny you can't use the 5th and 6th gears on the mainshaft. I bought a new 5th gear, but the 6th gear comes with a gear collar and washer and I couldn't find one of these until after I got all my gears cryoed so I couldn't use the yukon 5th and 6th gear. I didn't back cut any of the gears because I don't expect this motor to make more that 70 hp tops and the tranny I have assembled should be okay for this.

One of the main reasons I didn't balance my crank either is I am using a 81 mm piston from ESR's 420 kit. Eddie did a very good job designing the large pistons for his kits. They are wiesco's, flat top, and really light. The piston that comes with the puma kit is 80.5 mm this combined with a stock stroke keeps the cc's below 370 and for certain drag race classes keeps in a under 370 class. Unless the pistons for the this puma kit are different, they are pretty heavy. I am running a KTM 250/300 rod just to make sure I don't have problems. They have more meat around the piston pin area than a honda rod.

hondamancbr03

09-01-2010, 09:51 AM

Buford,
thanks for the info.......I have the bottom end to handle the Puma by following your list of parts. I'm not a big CC person so a small bore Puma would be more to my liking.

What carb are you running with your Puma? 40.5?

Pumashine mentioned the cylinder is around $1200, with my current bottom end i'm thinking i can build this for around 2K.

buford

09-01-2010, 10:17 AM

The cylinder with the head, blank dome, and the bolt kit unplated and unported is in that 1000,00 to 1200.00 range if you use the piston supplied in the kit. My piston was a bit more because I used an ESR piston. It's $150.00 plus freight back and forth for the plating, then depending on who you have port the cylinder and cut the dome for the head, it will be another $300.00 to $400.00 for this. If you go with a 78 mm bore puma and your cases are already cut for a Pro-X or ESR 78 mm bore you might get away with not needing anymore mods done to you cases. I went with a bit larger bore so my cases needed to be epoxied and machined to except the cylinder.

I started from scratch, so it's going to cost me a bit more than I wanted to spend, it is in the $2500-2600.00 range.

I am going to run a 40.5 PWK, ESR TRX 5 centermount pipe that I put a 1 1/4" stinger on, CR 250 ignition with a CR 125 CDI box (more timing advance down low compared to the 250 box)

09-01-2010, 01:15 PM

Your choice to go with a 1 ¼” diameter stinger was to reduce heat, correct? A larger stinger will give you a less back pressure, therefore; less heat at a cost in peak HP.

I went through this with my 330R engine and custom pipe BDT Motorsports built for me, however; in the reverse…BDTM went to a slightly smaller stinger diameter on my TRX9 Pipe and increased the mid section of the pipe to increase HP by 4-5%, it did not affect the broad power curve & high torque output, it did increase heat at the cylinder by 20-25 degrees

The increase in heat was countered by modifying the water pump impeller. BDTM machined the impeller to increase the volume of liquid the water pump pushed through the radiator, not the speed of the water flow. This reduced the engine heat by more than 20 degrees and back down to normal…

I am trying to get one the owner’s sons from BDT Motorsports to sign up on this forum and participate, they could explain much better than I can some of the exotic builds they perform and why…

buford

09-01-2010, 01:26 PM

yes I bunped the stinger size for heat reasons since the 81 mm bore will require it

09-01-2010, 01:40 PM

Back in the day, Rob Selvy played quite a bit with stinger diameters and length, some of his best pipes, team pipes, had some interesting stinger diameter to length ratios.

I believe the art of 2 stroke pipe design to a large extent has been lost…even Shear has difficulty making pipes for anything out of the ordinary or requiring some real thinking out of the box.

I like your large engine build Buford and Pumashine; I believe a +90 HP 430CC setup on 110 race fuel is not only reliably possible, it will be the “cat’s meow” in the near future. Thanks for sharing!

Pumashine

09-01-2010, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by acecarlos
I am trying to get one the owner’s sons from BDT Motorsports to sign up on this forum and participate, they could explain much better than I can some of the exotic builds they perform and why…

I'm with Carlos, my polonda builder DMR told me to use a 1.125 ID stinger translating to the 1 1/4 OD you guys are talking about. I don't ask the builder a whole lot of questions why what works. Its just thier expirience to know what works and what does not. If you have a cylinder over 400cc you want to increase the stinger size. I hear from on here that LRD makes one of these pipes. Learn new stuff everyday on here.

Buford knows everything about the Puma's port timing and what not. The new ESR piston you want to use so you do not have to balance the crank. Can't wait until Buford is done with his build. We will see if going from 85mm to 81mm is worth the savings in money. We will be doing some serious dune riding shorlty. I am sure he will keep you guys up to date. Its kinda his hobby.

Saleenster

09-01-2010, 03:15 PM

I went thru a couple different pipes for my Puma before Pete called Shear and gave him the specs to build one. Cost a little more, but the thing flat rips.

Higgy87TRX425

09-01-2010, 04:10 PM

I spoke with Pete over at Hybrid Engineering and it sounds like he'd be able to build me a Puma motor with about a months time! I think that's the route that I wanna take.If I use a CR ignition I've been told that the bike's aren't to hard to start. So I think that my old ignition was my main problem. I may have a chance to buy a Puma motor already done. So I sure hope thats a possibility. It would save me alot of time. Then I can get right to building. We shall see.

If anyone has a Puma forsale, please let me know. Or if you have another big bore motor its worth bringing up to me. The worst I'll say is no. I'm looking for 400+cc so if thats what you've got let me know.

I'm still open to other ideas if anyones got any??? Thanks again for all the ideas so far. Keepem commin!!

09-01-2010, 04:59 PM

I would have your favorite builder build you a 330R-370R; 68-80 HP engine, get used to +68 HP, plenty of power once you get over 68 HP, and note that most engines don’t even put out a true 68 HP no matter what displacement…get a ripping 330R-370R properly built.

Then 6-8 months down the road get one of the 430R’s, by then a few more will have been built, R&D will have helped get most if not ALL the bugs worked out, and 90 hp on a 430R will be the norm…