What kind of motor work is competitive?

[Lquad71]

I am going to be racing pro am next year. not nationals but itp quadcross.
I have a 1:12.5compression piston right now with a mild port and polish. stock 05 carb. crf450 cam. titanium valve springs.everything else is stock.
What other motor work would i need to do to be able to run up front in pro am?

[R3Concepts]

For ITP I would say 60 HP.

[sno-x139]

Rage Pro head, Web Cam, Dynatek ignition, 06+ carb bored to 43mm. This will be about 60hp to the ground real numbers.

[R3Concepts]

Originally posted by sno-x139
Rage Pro head, Web Cam, Dynatek ignition, 06+ carb bored to 43mm. This will be about 60hp to the ground real numbers.

No need for a Dyna.

[eastside 400]

no need for 60HP in my opinion. i know motors help but if you cant properly use the power then its not worth it.

I would get a good port job done, then a 14:1 piston, either use your cam for reliability or a web if you want tons of power but higher valve maintenance. Put a bored FCR carb on, use a dyna since is sounds like you have a 05 and that should be plenty of power

[R3Concepts]

Originally posted by eastside 400
no need for 60HP in my opinion. i know motors help but if you cant properly use the power then its not worth it.

I would get a good port job done, then a 14:1 piston, either use your cam for reliability or a web if you want tons of power but higher valve maintenance. Put a bored FCR carb on, use a dyna since is sounds like you have a 05 and that should be plenty of power

What you just listed is 60 HP with a "good head" and it will take 60 to run up front in any Pro/ProAm/Production class at ITP.

[shiftyfofiddy]

i have a dasa race head with a megacycle x2 cam, (damn near the web 208) 14.75 to one piston 41mm fcr carb dasa race legal pipe and im only 57 hp and to be honest hp just made the bike that much more harder to controll on the track. i mean its not to much but it does take time to get use to it.

[blaster12s]

^^^^agree
run it the way it is and hold it wide open. lol

[R3Concepts]

Originally posted by JNWQUADMX
let me tell you the facts bro. Not to sound like a prick but nobody in AMA ATV MX nationals on the pro or pro-am line has 60 hp. I can tell you that for a fact. You can only pull that out of a big big bore and it would feel like a turd bc it would take forever to get there. the only way youre getting 60 out of a 450 is on a Dyno that reads high. almost EVERY AMA pro is putting out about 50 to 55 tops. and for pro am around 50. but thats with engines coming apart every race. the best thing for you is to run a bored CRF carb and if its an 05 the CRF ignition with a 14:1 piston and a decent cam. with a good intake you should be right there. the honda doesnt need massive portwork or big valves to be competitive. that will be a great motor that will hold together. trust me.

You're kidding right? :huh

[R3Concepts]

Originally posted by JNWQUADMX
No I'm dead serious. Those are the facts. Flat out.

Facts huh? I've turned numerous riders loose with 60+ HP builds. Here in AZ at Speedworld you can not holeshot a race without 60 HP. I'm friends with several big name builders and know where the bikes dyno at horsepower wise and all are over 60. You think 55 HP would pull Byrd or some of through bigger riders around the track and be competitive? You can make 50 on a Honda with a pipe, cam, intake and jetting. So you are saying I could holeshot an ATVA Pro Am race with 50 HP? I think not.

[R3Concepts]

Originally posted by JNWQUADMX
Yeah that's cool. But I wouldn't know. I only built Cody Gibsons quads last year that we won both AMA pro am championships on and Lawsons this year. But I have no clue. Lol I'm not going to sit here and fight with you bro. It's pointless. I'm just telling you how it is. That's cool that you "know" some big engine builders and everything. But I can tell you that we holeshot almost EVERY AMA pro am national on our KAWi. But I'm just a retard who doesn't know anything.

Don't get all excited I'm just saying your wrong. Bring one of your motors out to an FSA hill race at Glamis and you can race one of my motors. Bet ya get clowned on. But I'm sure since you work for a suspension builder you know all about motors. Lol lol lol.

[fmfhonda250r]

Rider will make the difference but i know you will need more than 55 hp to be at a pro am level. Been there done that

[R3Concepts]

Oh and just cause you can't make 60 does not mean it can't be done or isn't being done. There are 2 stockbores that race the FSA Series that are over 70 HP and they have both been on a couple dynos to confirm. Can't be done unless its a big bore remember.

[R3Concepts]

Originally posted by JNWQUADMX
I thought we were talking about what it takes to win in a pro am mx race. Not some dune race. Lol I was talking about engines that win on a national pro am level. And we did it. On a kawi of all things. And yes we did all the engines. I don't want to keep fighting so I'll back down and say I lost this one.

You threw out all your credentials so I thought you would want to compare motors and race? :D

[bracey]

a lot of dynos read high some read low but its easy to tell if you can tell what is your base line is for a stock honda that will tell how far you two are off . our local shop has a dyno jet 250 dyno and around here their are a few others ....and none of them read the same........ our complete stock 04 05s make 34hp 35hp and 06 and up are around 36hp 38hp ....and we have never seen any 450r make 60 or over big bore or not...... and we have dynoed quite a few quads some of them are top pro tt quads and a few pro-am mx quads

[R3Concepts]

Originally posted by JNWQUADMX
Naa you got me bro. I wouldn't want to load up my piece of **** and go get smoked. All I was trying to say was the truth. That it does NOT take 60 or even 50hp to win on the pro am national level. That's what this kid wanted to know. Not what he needs for a dune drag bike. I didn't mean to sound like an ***. But he asked and I told him the truth and backed it up with a fact. The fact is that we Did win almost every moto in pro am unlimited and pro am production at the AMA atv mx nationals. And it wasn't on anything close to 60 hp. And that's a fact.

You said that no one in the ATVA Pro or Pro Am classes has 60 HP not that it does not take 60 HP to be competitive, go read your post. It may not take that but there are multiple bikes out there over 60 at the races. You did well cuase you have a good rider. Think about how fast he would be with a real motor. Also, MX motors are about as close to drag motors as they come, isn't MX drag racing with jumps?? Also you said that big bores would take forever to get there, and fact is big bores make power sooner so they woukd get to the same power SOONER. But I'm sure you knew that being a Pro motor builder and all. :ermm:

[R3Concepts]

Also I see you on the org so why don't you take a little time to look in the dyno section to see what Hondas can make.

[Lquad71]

Wayne mooradian from pep works very closely with josh upperman as most of you know. i personally spoke with wayne saying that uppermans quad for the beginning of the 2010 season they were getting 58hp out of it. and he said it was the best motor that they had ever had. more than several AMA pro holeshots...with 58hp. this was at the beginning of the season.idk if they pulled more hp later in the year. sounds to me like JNWQUADMX knows what he is talking about

[Butter]

And Walsh builds a hell of a motor. My buddy running A and ProAm at Nats was running one of their motors in his LTR, and he always said it was faster than hell, and held up all season.

Drag and MX motors are not really alike. I'm on the ORG too, and seen the monster motors people have built for drags and dunes. I can see where the power would maybe want to have the same characteristics, but def. not built for an all around purpose.

JNWQUADMX, def. not worth sweating it here dude. I gave up trying tp help out or voicing an opinion on here awhile ago, just because its always bashed on, or "wrong" Walsh has the credentials to back up what they say. Let that name speak for itself. And actually most of what I've said in the past was bashed by some desert racer, or some duner out west, where nothing is close when type of riding or racing is concerned. Not sure why this turned into a Drag vs. MX motor war...

[R3Concepts]

Sounds like some people need to find new head porters! 60 is a walk in the park. But then again there are us that do this for a living and then those who do it for fun.

I guess I shouldn't tell you that 80 has been done with a 575 and 613.

:eek2:

[Balaz_73*00]

I got your back JNW...I can only laugh at how people act. This forum is to help other people and its especially neat when people like JNW give us inside information like he has. Nonsense like this is what pushes the people who really know what theyre talking about away...

[airmobile101]

IDK........ 60 HP seems like alot. Hell , I have a hard enough time with 45HP!:blah:

[R3Concepts]

Originally posted by JNWQUADMX
Very true bro. thanks. I was just trying to help. Ill have to think about what i say again. but its hard to keep your mouth shut when you have someone who might really want to race and have talent and skill but not 3 grand to waste on trying to get where he never will in the engine dept. hondas run so damn good with very little done its crazy. go too far and you go backwards. fast. Everything has to work together to work at all. I have all stock Valves and springs with 20 thousands shims under the springs to raise seat pressure in my 05 and a 943/921 drop in webcam . MILD portwork, pretty much just cleaned up a bit, and a CRF ignition, 14/1 piston and a walsh Huge intake and a 43.5 FCR .with a DASA exhaust. ive pulled some far better dyno numbers with my bike then many of the big valve honda heads with crazy big cams and wild portwork from some "Big Engine builders," its all about the combo. and it doesnt take much at all to wake up a honda. but go too far and its over.
OHHH and didnt you write this about a 416ex or any smaller bore ex being able to smoke a BIG BORE 440? dude this is a joke. I didnt want to do it but IM hooked. and as Jay and silent bob would say, 'SIck burn" lol

Posted by: R3Concepts

I would not build a 440. A 416 or 426 will pull a 440 all day long. "Local Machine shop" if not done right, it will blow head gaskets all day long... too many things to screw up in boring and sleeving a 440. Do not go with 12.5:1, thats too much compression, unless its done by a top builder, aka Sparks. I run a 11:1 426, hotcam stage 2, edlebrock carb, valve work, hardened rockers, head ported and polished, springs, retainers, and so on.. and I holeshot my freinds 440(same items in motor as mine) by 10 bike lenghts every race. 426 you dont re-sleeve and its super reliable.

Jeff what happened here...

http://www.trx450r.org/forum/126-dyno-room/173873-2000-00-48hp-wtf.html

You might want to look up "Morgan" or Racers Edge AZ on the ORG. I was there head mechanic for 3 years and ill clown on any motor you have.

[R3Concepts]

And 400exs and 450Rs have what in common? Lol not a damn thing.

[R3Concepts]

Here is the head that that guy was pissed about. Nothing more then a buff and shine. Floors weren't flattened, short side isn't rolled back, no exhaust work.

Kinda hard to go "to far" when you don't even start to port the head. Do you use a flow bench when you port these heads? An in house dyno to test on?

http://www.trx450r.org/forum/97-parts-accessories/170462-full-walsh-racecraft-ported-polished-prepared-race-head.html

[fmfhonda250r]

Originally posted by R3Concepts
And 400exs and 450Rs have what in common? Lol not a damn thing.
Well i know one thing. They are both made by HONDA :D

[300racer]

Originally posted by R3Concepts
Here is the head that that guy was pissed about. Nothing more then a buff and shine. Floors weren't flattened, short side isn't rolled back, no exhaust work.

Kinda hard to go "to far" when you don't even start to port the head. Do you use a flow bench when you port these heads? An in house dyno to test on?

http://www.trx450r.org/forum/97-parts-accessories/170462-full-walsh-racecraft-ported-polished-prepared-race-head.html
dude you are talking about drag bikes for the dunes. they guy is racing mx. mx is not drag racing with jumps! if it was any fat *** could do it just like they do in the dunes. i'm sure there are over 60hp dune quads out there but that isn't the subject so just stop posting.

[R3Concepts]

Originally posted by 300racer
dude you are talking about drag bikes for the dunes. they guy is racing mx. mx is not drag racing with jumps! if it was any fat *** could do it just like they do in the dunes. i'm sure there are over 60hp dune quads out there but that isn't the subject so just stop posting.

And the holeshot is what?? And fat people do race MX its called Vet classes :D

[ss440ex]

Originally posted by R3Concepts
And the holeshot is what?? And fat people do race MX its called Vet classes :D

Hey now!
Take it easy on us over 40 guys!
:D

[DEVINF450R]

R3Concepts, what model of Dyno are you using and what are your stock bike hp numbers? b/c my engine builder has the same dyno as Walsh's and his hp numbers are the same as his... and the KTM he built this year has been side by side w/ Joel Hetrick outta the holeshot and he wasnt close to 60.

Id say if you put any of Walsh's full race quads on YOUR dyno, theyd be mid 60's. Not all dynos are the same... ive seen riders that have a quad built by certain engine builders and have a dyno sheet saying 55hp and they post up mid 40's. Dyno runs should only be compared from the same dyno, with the same set of tires, at the same humidity, atm. pressure, and same temp, and same chain :rolleyes:

[DEVINF450R]

oh and I would like to add that MX builds are not about peak HP but WHERE the peak HP is. thats why its different than a drag bike. RARELY will you hit 5th gear on an mx track. most 100ft jumps are easily cleared in 4th. mx is about getting to the power asap

[300racer]

Originally posted by R3Concepts
And the holeshot is what?? And fat people do race MX its called Vet classes :D

i'm fat and not in vet class! lol but i suck.

[DEVINF450R]

Originally posted by R3Concepts
Here is the head that that guy was pissed about. Nothing more then a buff and shine. Floors weren't flattened, short side isn't rolled back, no exhaust work.

Kinda hard to go "to far" when you don't even start to port the head. Do you use a flow bench when you port these heads? An in house dyno to test on?

http://www.trx450r.org/forum/97-parts-accessories/170462-full-walsh-racecraft-ported-polished-prepared-race-head.html

and if the guy lied about the size of teh valves then who says he didnt stick a walsh sticker on the side of it to get more money out of it

[ALAMX37]

So I owned a Baldwin built crf. Full motor, ported, cam, 14-1 piston, the works. The only mods left were over size valves, ignition, and bored carb. The motor dyno numbers were only 55 hp, but the bike was a rocket ship, from idle to the rev limiter it pulled hard as anything I have rode. I can only imagine more power. Power makes the bike easier to ride in my opinion, it made the bike more nimble and easier to pull out of bad situations.

[R3Concepts]

Originally posted by DEVINF450R
R3Concepts, what model of Dyno are you using and what are your stock bike hp numbers? b/c my engine builder has the same dyno as Walsh's and his hp numbers are the same as his... and the KTM he built this year has been side by side w/ Joel Hetrick outta the holeshot and he wasnt close to 60.

Id say if you put any of Walsh's full race quads on YOUR dyno, theyd be mid 60's. Not all dynos are the same... ive seen riders that have a quad built by certain engine builders and have a dyno sheet saying 55hp and they post up mid 40's. Dyno runs should only be compared from the same dyno, with the same set of tires, at the same humidity, atm. pressure, and same temp, and same chain :rolleyes:

SuperFlow, and it has been compared same day, same tires, same pressure, same everything to 3 different DJ dynos in Phoenix and all were within 1 HP of each other. On all 4 dynos the Honda made over 60HP and it was a stockbore MX bike. I'm well aware of comparing dynos and why the constants need to remain the same, but this was over a comment that no Pro or Pro Am bike out there is over 60HP, not a dyno war.

[R3Concepts]

Originally posted by DEVINF450R
oh and I would like to add that MX builds are not about peak HP but WHERE the peak HP is. thats why its different than a drag bike. RARELY will you hit 5th gear on an mx track. most 100ft jumps are easily cleared in 4th. mx is about getting to the power asap

I can make over 60 under 9k RPM so you can use the stock box. Very useable power but does come on hard on the bottom and does wear out riders who are not used to the power.

[R3Concepts]

Originally posted by DEVINF450R
and if the guy lied about the size of teh valves then who says he didnt stick a walsh sticker on the side of it to get more money out of it

Understandable, but it makes Walsh look bad not the buyer or seller of the head.

[R3Concepts]

But this whole deal is over, Jeff and I are good, and everyone is moving on.

[bracey]

Originally posted by R3Concepts
SuperFlow, and it has been compared same day, same tires, same pressure, same everything to 3 different DJ dynos in Phoenix and all were within 1 HP of each other. On all 4 dynos the Honda made over 60HP and it was a stockbore MX bike. I'm well aware of comparing dynos and why the constants need to remain the same, but this was over a comment that no Pro or Pro Am bike out there is over 60HP, not a dyno war. .................can you tell me what the stock trx450r numbers( hp and torque) are on the dynos you used???????

[R3Concepts]

Originally posted by bracey
.................can you tell me what the stock trx450r numbers( hp and torque) are on the dynos you used???????

35-36 HP for 04-05 bikes and 37-38 for 06+ bikes.

[dtzalba450r]

I got a rider who races quadcross pro class with 2 different 60s+ hp bikes...but hell if he doesnt need that much power I guess im wasting my time :rolleyes:

[DEVINF450R]

Originally posted by R3Concepts
35-36 HP for 04-05 bikes and 37-38 for 06+ bikes.

NOT arguing anymore at all, but that is 5-6 more HP than stock bikes are posting on the dyno close to me. but then there are some guys in our area that uses a car dyno and is getting like 60+hp out of EVERY motor he builds and uses a car dyno :rolleyes:

lets just say my "50HP" KFX didnt get beat outta the holeshot by any of those "60HP" motors b/c that dyno reads wayyy high

[Pacheco_450r]

In my opinion hp doesn't replace talent when it comes to mx. Obviously that's different with drag racing because it's all about who put the most money into it and how much hp its running. So I really don't think a 60+ hp bike (whether they exist or not) in a motocross race series is really that much of an advantage verses someone who can ride a less hp'd bike a lot better.

[dtzalba450r]

Originally posted by Pacheco_450r
In my opinion hp doesn't replace talent when it comes to mx. Obviously that's different with drag racing because it's all about who put the most money into it and how much hp its running. So I really don't think a 60+ hp bike (whether they exist or not) in a motocross race series is really that much of an advantage verses someone who can ride a less hp'd bike a lot better.


So drag racing doesnt require any talent?

Well I dont use car dyno and I invite you to come down and holeshot it with your 50hp kfx...:devil:

[DnB_racing]

I drag race a lot now because Im to old and heal to slow to race mx any more!!! but i still love the feeling of competing on a quad, but to say that the two are close in any way is way off, im sorry but the talent level needed and riding ability and endurance that is needed for mx is something for the young and more talented!!

[DEVINF450R]

Originally posted by dtzalba450r
So drag racing doesnt require any talent?

Well I dont use car dyno and I invite you to come down and holeshot it with your 50hp kfx...:devil:

on a honda now... my point being was, that it seems some of the dynos that are posting numbers are running a little loose compared to Walsh's and Titan Motorworks... around 5-6 hp. Im no expert on dyno calibrations but wouldnt that make it read a little MORE off when measuring 55-60hp?

[Pacheco_450r]

So drag racing doesnt require any talent?

Well I dont use car dyno and I invite you to come down and holeshot it with your 50hp kfx...


When I see a 9 year old kid on his dad's drag banshee spanking people at the drags, no that is not talent. That is a light kid on a fast bike. Drag racing doesn't require athleticism, it's about good starts and not missing a shift. There's no whoops, high speed berms, big doubles. There's no endurance or strength needed. Put that kid on one of your (60+ hp motocross bikes) and he's going to be competitive? No I don't think so. A talented rider on a lower hp bike is a better advantage on the track than tons of horsepower.

[tach13]

your only as fast as your technique. but a fast *** bike helps too.