Well it finally happened...

[DVXchic]

I gave my ds450 to my stepson to race this year since his blaster finally blew up.
He is a bit harder on stuff then i am so i was expecting this to happen.
After the race this weekend he was cleaning the quad and low and behold........The frame has broke, and the crankcase gasket has pushed through the back.
The frame has broke through on one side above the a-arm mount and well cracked on the otherside.
Time to get out the bandaids, we have 4 more races, every weekend.
We are planing to have this welded and a bigger plate added to the front, i think kinda like tnt explained, using the existing holes under the cracks and extending the new plate above the cracks and drill new smaller holes and bolt it together.
Has anybody else tried this, and do you think it will get us through the next 4 races, he is tied for forth, but is one of the fastest riders in B class, not too bad for just starting racing the 450.

I know this has been posted a bunch of times, but please help. and Florentino, if you have nothing good to say then don't bother.

[DVXchic]

Here is a pic of him. He wants to race AMA Nationals when he is old enough for the 450 down there.

[Shawthy33]

Originally posted by DVXchic
...and Florentino, if you have nothing good to say then don't bother.

Classic.....

[Blizzard24]

as you do this, please post pics. It may help others copy or improve your design.

[TNT]

Yes if we are talking about the crack below, BRP came out with a new 2010 MX Z-Channel that extends up the frame(see diagram below). If you got a close by dealer and they have this in stock you could get this or make one out of 6061 aluminum it welds good you can get at any hardware store same thickness for now. The BRP Z is extruded(you can tell by the outer square radius)) and will be stronger than getting some sheet metal and bending it to the angles yourself, get BRP's if you can or sometimes you can get extruded 2024/or 6061 aluminum bar stock at the hardware store if you can find the flange widths, or 4130 steel but it will be hard to weld to AL in that case(steel) no welding needed to surrounding structure...... If you make it, extend it up further than BRP did and put another 1/4 grade 8 steel bolt and nut red-lock-tite it in, you want the 1/4 bolt 2D or .5 from any edge of the Z or doubler I suggest if not use a smaller bolt/nut. So bolt the forward surface together using the existing bolt and add another as shown in my pic in red. There is also another doubler if you look at BRP's diagram I circled in red between the Z and the frame that you can weld to the frame and over the crack.

The other two accessable side surfaces, push the cracked frame back together & TIG/MIG weld as you said, but see if you can make a formed flat plate doublers, extend about an inch on both sides up and down of the crack, form to the frame and if you can weld to the Z-channel and rear doubler shown in the pic. I'll make you a quick diagram if you don't understand.

Hope that helps, that should get him back on the track safely in a short time and may be all you need for his level of racing. I know how it is as a parent ;)

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/DSFRAMECRACK-1.jpg

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/Presentation1-3.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/0429101723a1.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/brp2010framekit.jpg

I'm just amazed my son has raced A-level nationals and pro-level locals and regionals and has not cracked a frame here yet. Here's a couple of pics of him on his....

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/IMG_1443.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/IMG_1412.jpg

[blaster99]

Well the only thing I can tell you is either weld it up, or buy some new frame pieces. They are 150 for both.. I think, don't quote me on that. They are pretty easy to change.

I think it has a lot to do with how smooth you are when riding. Terry, I'm assuming your son is smoother than the average racer, as he is at a higher level that most. That may be the reason he hasn't cracked that part of the frame yet. It took me a full year and a half to finally break my practice quad frame. My practice quad is the quad I take to the track first, and when I tend to over-shoot /case stuff. I feel that is the only reason it broke, and a year and a half of that.. well will break any frame at its weak spots, but that's the only problem so far, ( Knock on wood!)

[Shawthy33]

TNT - I'm really just learning by reading all of your posts but had one question, it would seem to me that drilling and bolting another hole in through an already weak spot may create an even more vunerable area? Why do you think this strengthen's that area, is if functioning by tying in the additional material from the V bracket into the frame bar?

[TNT]

Originally posted by Shawthy33
TNT - I'm really just learning by reading all of your posts but had one question, it would seem to me that drilling and bolting another hole in through an already weak spot may create an even more vunerable area? Why do you think this strengthen's that area, is if functioning by tying in the additional material from the V bracket into the frame bar?

If you look at the way the crack is happening in the first photo I posted, you can see that the upper frame is bending inward toward the quad center. It's as if tho the frame wants to "spin" around that bolt....If you put another bolt it stops the spin....

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/DSFRAMECRACK-1.jpg

Thats the short answer, now for the longer for those initerested.....

That frame rail is an extrusion, to thin, that particular shape is VERY strong but hard to extrude. BRP due it's stength tried to keep it thin for weight. Extrusions are strong since we take soft alum in this case and ram it through a die of different shapes, the process produces grain direction along the length(L). The grain direction 90 deg to the length we call "transverse"(LT) is weaker....the extrusion still in it's soft condition is formed as shown in the pic around a "stretch die", a tool, mandrel, then heat treated to the T6 or 2024-T6 condition. The bent/formed area is still the weak link, and remember the transverse grain direction? Well, this area does just that, transfers load from one arm to the other into weak grain direction. To make matters worse, one fastener allows the frame to spin or in this case becomes a concentrated load point of failure. So it's a no-no to put one fastener in a bend and allow it to spin.

Heres some pics to demo what I am trying to say I made up a while back.....the purple arrow show the bending moment, which is really what we call a "couple force" that causes spin around the one fastener....as you can see they are opposing diagonal forces, so either side can crack.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/Slide1-8.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/Slide2-5.jpg


Hope that makes sense and your learning something. Got questions don't be shy...:D

[jlrenken]

TNT I PM YOU

[TNT]

Originally posted by blaster99
Terry, I'm assuming your son is smoother than the average racer, as he is at a higher level that most. That may be the reason he hasn't cracked that part of the frame yet.

I dunno, like most racers he has seen his fair share of flips and spills on his DS.....but yeah he is pretty smooth. I think it's hit or miss, I don't think the bolts on the skid or anywhere in the back of the quad has do with it, maybe in part...yes it's always good to keep all bolts tight and ride smooth but that doesn't make up for design flaws which all quads have.


Originally posted by jlrenken
TNT I PM YOU

Got it and responded.

[Shawthy33]

TNT what about having a gusset connect the upper shock mounts? Wouldn't that possibly help spread the load up front and stop the 'inner-twisting' forces that crack that bottom bend? I'm not sure if the radiator is mounted in that U gap created by the front verticle frame rails. But I'm wondering if in addition to stregthening the lower end would strengthening the upper side also help against the diagonal forces you were talking about.

[TNT]

Originally posted by Shawthy33
TNT what about having a gusset connect the upper shock mounts? Wouldn't that possibly help spread the load up front and stop the 'inner-twisting' forces that crack that bottom bend? I'm not sure if the radiator is mounted in that U gap created by the front verticle frame rails. But I'm wondering if in addition to stregthening the lower end would strengthening the upper side also help against the diagonal forces you were talking about.

May be a good idea, I see in the diagram above #14 is a upr transverse member to help stabilize those upper forces, if those bolts #13 come loose(b good to keep an eye on these) or there is not a tight fit you can see how it would cause the frame to spin around that one bolt. The upper arm is more of a concern since it dumps more load than the shocks into the frame, but you got a good point once the couple starts anywhere in the system, failure....it's a nightmare waiting to happen to the misfortunate that hit it just right.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/brp2010framekit.jpg


Here this guy use welded gussets to do what the added bolt and extended doubler do in my design but added upper gussets too. Last we heard it's holding up.....he had went through two sets of stockers added gussets to his third I think he said....The best way to fix this is redesign the frame with no formed curves next to arm and shock or upper steering loads or the couples(diag force potential on curved weak areas).

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/Presentation2-1.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/DScrackfixrats.jpg

Lots of ideas now, you can combine or make up your own. Understanding the loads to take out is the first step in designing structure, repairs.

[DVXchic]

Thanks everybody, i will let you know how we made out.

[Shawthy33]

Have any companies come out with a weld on Gusset kit for this frame yet? I know BCS has the frame reinforcement stuff but I'm thinking like the gusset kits for Honda's and other steel frames.

There seems like there could be a market for it on the CanAm

[DVXchic]

What about the flat plate on the backside of the z channel, if that was extended would it be the same idea as the zchannel piece?

[TNT]

Originally posted by DVXchic
What about the flat plate on the backside of the z channel, if that was extended would it be the same idea as the zchannel piece?

yes that would work and be easy for you to make. Listen I forgot one thing when it comes to adding another bolt. You want 2 times the diameter to the edge of the flat plate(2d), IE: 1/4 bolt = .5, and 4 times the diameter spacing to the existing bolt or 1.00(4d). Measured from bolt center-line to center-line, or bolt center-line to flat plate edge.

Heres why for those interested: the 2d edge margin keeps the bolt from ripping out towards the edge with load. The 4d spacing....if the bolts are to close it puts too much concentrated load on the structure between them, loads travels from bolt to bolt, if they are too far way the structure between can buckle(bend/crack, etc)....So if you can't get that 2d to the edge and 4d spacing go to the next smaller bolt like 3/16 until you get it.

[nvrpmx]

call motoworks they stock the updated parts and can help with any updates that the factory team uses. 951-587-9222 ask for Ty

[TNT]

Originally posted by nvrpmx
call motoworks they stock the updated parts and can help with any updates that the factory team uses. 951-587-9222 ask for Ty

Be nice if they just put them on their website???? BCS is another option, they are not too far from Can-am who I beleive has a frame dyno. BCS has thier products and cost on thier website and is more than willing to help too.

Some of these other ideas or your own may not be as proven but may be just as good and cheaper for amatuers!

Yeah I think a kit would be good, so far I have not seen one on any website that works for a fact or is not over priced. 4-play, BCS, has had them too.....BRP race team has been selling kits since 08/09 in this area and I have yet to see 2011+ stock model for amatures get it right. We amatures especially c-b racers as the OP with a 2009 has 2008 race team updates/parts the race team sold back then that still did not work, should not have to go to the race teams again and again, that tells you something alone! Go back to the drawing board and get it right!!! :rolleyes:

[TNT]

Here are the BRP 2008 race team parts that were suppose to fix the problem and ended up on the 2009 this thread is about, and the pic of the welded gussets is a 2009, I also have a whole gallary of 2009 failures......makes you question the history and creditbility on spending money of race team parts that don't work. The whole area is a bad design and the sooner the factory stops trying to sell bandaide "race team" parts that don't work the better! 2010 diagram, another attempt we need more in the market to see if average riders, trail riders even, fail race team fixes like they did in 2009.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/BRPPARTS6.jpg

Here is ATV 4Play machined part, it's really a pretty good one but expensive. A machine part is whats needed to fix a poor design. Notice they pick up two fasteners per side no spin, common sense structures 101! Also take note of the edge margin and spacing between fasteners as I described.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/FrameREAR.jpg

I'm looking forward to see a 2011...before anyone buys race teams parts get pics and put them out here, there s/b nothing for the factory to hide at this point they s/b honest and forthright. Those old 2008 race team parts where made public in early 2009 and still failed as you can see in this thread.

OP take those flat plates in pic 2 extend them up add a couple a bolts and I bet your could to go for under $50 and a little labor, just like the guy w/the welded gussets did..... Better to test your own design than keep testing BRPs and thier " factory race teams." 2009-9 clutch bulletin, swing arm bolt sleeve/cracked case.... more examples

Sorry if I sound a little harsh but I have the consumers best interest in mind.

[TNT]

Heres a design I whipped up real fast....BRP won't like it since it has more parts to assy on thier line which cost money as opposed to a single formed extru that fails they can sell different kits/frame members over the years that don't work.

I drew this horizontally, sorry, but there are no curves, it can be welded or bolted together...it took me 15 mins to draw this if I had more time I come up w/something much better.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/DSWELDDESIGN.jpg

LH side shown....RH opposite and symetrical

[DVXchic]

Here are a couple pics of what we had done, the gussets at the bottom bends were a mistake by the welder, oops. oh well. we made it through this weekend without a problem, hopefully we can get through the rest of the season.
Tyler got his first second overall for the weekend, hes pretty happy :)

[DVXchic]

This winter we plan on fixing it properly, get new frame pieces and weld in gussets, being short on time we had to do this up in a hurry. Input on what we have done is appreciated.

[HOBS DS450]

Looks good to me, let us know how it holds up. You put the two extra bolts in as well I see like TNT suggest.

I will be doing the same here shortly since I have discovered the start off a crack. Peices are on the way to fix but I might have to try this out as well. Thanks for sharing!

[TNT]

Looks REAL good, good pitch and edge margin on the two added bolts and the doubler and welded gussets look great!! Yeah keep us posted.

BTW the gussets at the bottom bends altho a mistake will help strengthen that hole where the original crack was and move some that load down to lower bolts, and beef up that bend. :cool: