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rbgnwa45
08-14-2010, 10:21 AM
I was charged for legally buying two cartons of aboriginal cigarettes in Ontario, totaling $650 + accumulating interest. I was not given a fair trial and I'm trying to fight the charge. I've been mailed appeal documents. It's enforced by the tobacco act and I believe it to be unmoral and right-infringing. It's legal to sell but not to purchase. I need an opinion on what I'm going to send as my appeal:

I don't agree with the charge because of the following reasons:

The government shouldn't allow the sale while not allowing the purchase. Could you imagine what it’d be like to be able to legally sell cocaine but not purchase it? The government cannot infringe on aboriginal rights, therefore the government is trying to get their tax money by going after the people who purchase aboriginal tobacco and with ridiculous charges. It’s not my fault that the government cannot force aboriginals to pay taxes. Once a tax becomes rightly un-payable the crime is upon the aboriginals, not the people who purchase aboriginal tobacco. I’m not the one who didn’t tax my purchase nor was I given the ability to do so. If the government agreed to the rights of aboriginal tobacco sales than they wouldn’t charge the people who purchase it because aboriginals will loose money after a purchaser is charged and never returns. The government is obviously half-way to agreeing with aboriginal rights and that is unmoral. The fact is the government cannot do anything about un-payable aboriginal taxes so they get their money elsewhere, from people who aren’t guilty of doing the bigger “crime”. The only reason there is a tobacco act is because the government wants no trial to prove innocence so they can regain all of the taxes they’ve lost on aboriginal tobacco sales. If I were charged with possession of contraband of any other kind, I would be given the ability to appeal my charge in a court of law. The tobacco act is unmoral because it’s a difference of biased opinion, one that infringes the rights of many who are and aren’t aboriginal.

I came out of the store with a coffee and a non-clear bag. The cigarettes were not visible. The store also sells many things other than cigarettes, therefore the police had no right to pull me over under a suspicion made by a tobacco enforcer. If the store sells things other than cigarettes than the suspicion that I purchased cigarettes isn't reasonable. I was not given proof of purchase.

I wasn't informed that I could refuse a search, therefore my rights were violated. I asked many questions pertaining to my charge that weren’t answered by the present tobacco enforcers nor the police officers, therefore my rights were violated.

I wasn't aware that I was doing something illegal, therefore I'm protected under mens rea, which I stated before given the charge. I was told that it wasn’t upon the attending officers to prove that I was innocent, although they cannot prove a guilty conscience on my part, therefore they’ve unreasonably tried to prove without evidence that I am guilty and that is unmoral.

I am innocent until proven guilty by a court of law but I wasn’t appointed a trial.

The entire half of my family on my mothers’ side are non-status Algonquin aboriginals and my grandparents own green cards.

Why is there an accumulating interest on my charge? That’s bonkers and I refuse to pay it. Under what obligation and moral law am I to pay interest on my own charge? This isn’t a loan! I’m unemployed so how do you expect me to pay $650 with accumulating interest?

Why were my two cartons of cigarettes confiscated for not paying undue taxes when I was charged and expected to pay x130 the amount in taxes? If I pay x130 the amount in taxes than those two cartons are x130 less illegal or are there hidden fee’s such as the tobacco enforcers salary?

It would be more cost-effective to shut down all aboriginal tobacco-sale stores but instead the government created an act that infringes on my and many peoples’ rights.

I want the tobacco act changed and my two cartons of cigarettes returned (totaling $36). I refuse to be part of a government loop-hole that doesn’t recognize their own wrong-doing nor the aboriginals before recognizing innocence upon those who aren’t aboriginal. Your fight is with yourself and the infringed aboriginal rights, not me or anyone who legally purchased aboriginal tobacco. The government has the ability to force people to pay due taxes, which in my case was approximately $5. I don’t detest paying taxes to the province and I wasn’t given the ability to do so. How do you know I wasn’t going to pay the taxes on my purchase? I want proof.

You will only ever receive $5 from me but since you owe me two cartons of cigarettes you can pay me $31.
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What do you think? :huh

dpizz450
08-14-2010, 12:27 PM
Maybe I'm retarded, but I don't get it. Where do you live? Why can you not buy cigarettes? I only read the first paragraph, then skimmed through.

Quad18star
08-14-2010, 03:09 PM
You cannot take native cigarettes off the reserve because they are not braded and marked. You can try and fight the charges but it'll never fly.

First off, you should have never been able to buy them because you need to produce your status card or have proof that you live on the reserve. Secondly, the law states that native cigarettes cannot leave the reserves without having proof that you're native.

If they ahd suspicion that you had the cigarettes they can search you. Same as if they suspect you have drugs on you.

Cigarettes were confiscated because they are contreband substance... just like anything else that the government confiscates when taxes are not paid.

You have to apply for you status card ... can't go on the assumptiont hat if your grandparents are native , then so are you. Native ancestry only goes back 4 generations from full blown native.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse. You NEED to know the laws.

tri5ron
08-14-2010, 04:01 PM
I am not a lawyer, and I am not personally familiar with Canadian law or the issues associated with Aboriginal tobbaco. So I do not know the accuracy of the following....

I did have a Canadian friend who once told me that the main reason people buy the Aboriginal cigarettes, was to avoid paying tax on them and therefore, they were much cheaper than the major (legal) brands.

He went on to say that Everybody knows the laws about it, "Status Card Required", (or something like that), signs are clearly posted.
and that the fines were rather hefty.
He said that a attempted defence of "I didn't know" NEVER flies.

He said that if you were caught off of the reservation, possesing these cigarettes, and not possesing a status card, you would be heavily fined, and that it simply was not worth it.

So I guess my question is,...

If the above statements by my friend are all accurate, why would anyone take the chance of getting fined many hundreds of dollars, just to save $5 bucks ?

rbgnwa45
08-14-2010, 04:05 PM
A carton of normal smokes is $60-70 and I purchased two cartons for $36. I don't agree with it :o.

yfzrider690
08-14-2010, 04:22 PM
Just because you don't agree doesn't mean that you are right. I'm sure you knew the laws and what you were doing, you were just trying to save money like anyone else and you got caught. Looks like you're screwed. Kind of funny even when people are unemployed and don't have any money they can still afford to buy expensive cigarettes.

rbgnwa45
08-14-2010, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by yfzrider690
Just because you don't agree doesn't mean that you are right.

Sure it does. That's like saying if you were charged with assault but it was self defence and you don't agree to it being assault than it doesn't mean you're right.

I didn't pay $5 worth of tax and I was charged $650 for it, that just doesn't make sense, the punishment doesn't fit the crime.

CJM
08-14-2010, 07:06 PM
Obviously if its all out in the open for you to see (signs and junk) about the consequences, you knew the consequences and they nabbed you-then guess what your SOL buddy.

rbgnwa45
08-14-2010, 08:20 PM
There aren't any signs of legal purchase nor consequence, the only signs are things like "FIRE-HAWK SMOKE SHOP!!!!".

The only reason there's a tobacco act is because the government is losing tax money and they don't want the charged person to be given a fair trial so they can make most of their money back. It's unfair. They should make aboriginals pay taxes, not me. If I buy something on their land and take it off, it doesn't make sense to charge me when I bought it on their land. If I had purchased them off the reserve I'd be guilty.

The government can't prove that I wasn't going to pay the tax, how could I expect the aboriginals to when they simply don't? Therefore it's up to me to do it and I don't mind paying $5 per $36. The charge was x130 the amount of tax I didn't pay, which is totally unreasonable.

yam450_53
08-14-2010, 08:29 PM
I'm sorry but it doesn't work that way, the legal system doesn't work according to "fairness". Unfortunately they caught you and the way you've described the events so far leads me to believe you will have to pay the fines. I know it sucks, I personally don't smoke cigarettes but I have friends who buy indian cigarettes. They buy directly from someone though, not from a store, safer bet.

Quad18star
08-14-2010, 09:42 PM
You weren't going to be able to pay taxes because they are Native smokes ... which are non taxable because they're distributed on a reserve to natives only. So even if you wanted to pay the taxes you couldn't because they are not branded or have the government seal on them.

Natives have the right to non branded smokes because it's part of their heritage and the treaties between the native people and the gov't states they have that right. Same reason they do not pay taxes ... it's in the treaty.

We have a reserve a few KMs from here ... the cops sit on the bridge leaving the reserve and have the right to search your vehicle if they suspect you bought smokes or any other kind of goods that have to be gov't regulated (ie meats, fish, fireworks, etc).

Trying to fight the charges won't work.... citizens of non aboriginal status MUST pay taxes , so trying to say "I didn't know" won't fly.

yfzrider690
08-14-2010, 09:47 PM
Yeah you're screwed no matter if you think you're right or not. I just think it's funny how you are acting like you didn't know. You knew exactly what you were doing when you went there to get them and you got caught, time to pay up.

rbgnwa45
08-15-2010, 05:00 PM
Of course I knew what I was doing but you guys can't say I knew it was wrong. How can someone be guilty of anything if they didn't know what they were doing was illegal? I'm not paying that rediculous charge no matter what.

Ichoptop
08-15-2010, 05:32 PM
like stated before ignorance of the law is no excuse


just because I didnt know the speed limit was 55 doesnt mean I am not guilty of speeding doing 65.

Dont pay the fine, its cool. Im sure no one here really cares if you do or dont.

of course a bench warrant will be issued and you'll end up in jail, but hey, at least your standing up for what you think is right. :confused:

rbgnwa45
08-16-2010, 11:46 PM
Naaahhhhh I'll just pay the god damned ****ing bull**** mother****in' rape of a fine.

I know that ignorance of the law is wrong and I'm guilty of buying unmarked cigarettes but I don't care because I'm unemployed.

I just don't agree with not paying $5 to the government with the possibility of being jailed over it. X130 the amount in charges is rediculous, it's like going to jail for spitting or something. 40% of my cheque goes to the government anyways :o. Won't be making that mistake again! :scary:

yfzrider690
08-17-2010, 12:03 AM
You really are ignorant. Spitting is not a fine, buying cigarettes that aren't taxed is. You knew exactly what you were doing and you thought you could get away with breaking the law and you got caught. Now you have to pay and your whining like you didn't know what you were doing was illegal. Have fun paying that fat bill, lol!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quad18star
08-17-2010, 12:03 AM
The parting words ...... "Won't be making that mistake again!"

Atleast the lesson was learned.