steel upper frame rails. pics and frame talk

[florentino]

tnt here are your pics.

[florentino]

95% done. it came out perfect so i used 1 inch x inch square box steel in the lower part.

[florentino]

what do you think???????? i was not going to do them. but tnt said it was hard to do. that made me do them. its actually really easy if you know how to use tools and use common sence.

[florentino]

so i put bigget bolts 9/16s and got rid of the week rivets only time will tell.

[TNT]

I think you miss understood what I said…what you did is VERY easy, What BRP did VERY difficult. What BRP did you need to machine a tool (a stretch die) and need a special expensive air-craft huck bolt gun, what you did all you need is a common welder and some bolts/wrenches from the hardware store. BRP mass produces(makes A LOT for low cost) you mad one set and you have twice as many parts and shop assembly time/fitting/welding that adds to cost, a machine makes BRP one-peice design fast no fitting, welding, or assembly time/cost, just fasteneing...….There's a huge difference between what you have done and what BRP did for stock production quads. You could get a feel for this by selling your frame rails after adding up all your time and materials see if you profit, under a 1 year warantee, and eat some cost if they fail, which they will.

For one the weld, it looks like you butted up the two square tubes of different size and welded them, not strong, the weld will crack. BRP has one piece the formed(curved) on a stretch die…the forming process, you need special chemical treat tanks too.

The BRP aircraft huck-bolt is much stronger than the grade 8 steel bolts you use and they will not drift out over time. I hope you lock-tite them in.

What would be better for your design, as I said before, is take the curved engine bracket and make a steel one with no curve, use it as a frame rail gusset too, pick up the two bolts shown on your frame rail and add another two to the other frame section you welded, and pick-up the upper engine bolt with the new engine bracket. Your welded area really needs a gusset since it's bent already and will bend more under load, especially from the engine putting high load in that area from the attached engine brakets. Look at most steel frames where bending loads are high, gussets. Your limited on room there for a gusset, so you may need a cross member right to left to support your bent welds. Unsupported welds at bends are no good, even steel…think of it this way, if you took those pieces off and try to bend both ends the center where the bend/weld is will break easily…same will happen on the quad. reason is you have alot of leverage or what we call moment lever arm bending at the center where your welds are.

I know you'll disagree, you'll see over time, and as I stated if you feel that great about sell them under full warantee give refunds no questions asked. Then you will eat the cost of your time and materials and see what BRP and other frame companies, engineers, are up against, it's just not that simple. Also you added some weight using steel and your selling market to the competition is now reduced. You get the picture.

Nice try, as I said I think you need to use gussets at the weld, fix the engine bracket, and the bolt area through the engine. BRP engineers could do it right but it would take a major redesign...Including a less heavy smaller engine imo.

[florentino]

Originally posted by TNT

For one the weld, it looks like you butted up the two square tubes of different size and welded them, not strong, the weld will crack. BRP has one piece the formed(curved) on a stretch die…the forming process, you need special chemical treat tanks too.

not done yet. but you did ask for pics remember. the other point is that i have nothing to loose if it fails no big deal. but it it works then cool. and yes its a 2 piece rail. but all the force is at the motor mount. i did my homework. the weld will never breack maybe the steel lol.

The BRP aircraft huck-bolt is much stronger than the grade 8 steel bolts you use and they will not drift out over time. I hope you lock-tite them in.
time will tell?? i dont think so. the good part is to remove parts real quick as thats the main thing.
yea a made my long travel suspencion on my yamaha and everyone said it was not going to work.. its just as good as any out there. but thanks anyways. i do want your opinion
to me this is just for fun a project thats it. there is no money in racing.


I know you'll disagree, you'll see over time, and as I stated if you feel that great about sell them under full warantee give refunds no questions asked. Then you will eat the cost of your time and materials and see what BRP and other frame companies, engineers, are up against, it's just not that simple. Also you added some weight using steel and your selling market to the competition is now reduced. You get the picture.

Nice try, as I said I think you need to use gussets at the weld, fix the engine bracket, and the bolt area through the engine. BRP engineers could do it right but it would take a major redesign...Including a less heavy smaller engine imo. [/B]

bottom line is that we all need to step it up and post ideas good or bad. cause brp better come up with a better frame.
lets face it frame is junk cause it needs work and even with the gussetts its gooing to break.
the kfx frame is the best frame in my opinion not the best quad but the frame is way better. i can tell you at leats 10 weak points in the can am frame and i dont need a computer for that.

[florentino]

i will also get rid of the cooland tank in put it some where else. and i want to get rid of some electrical things i dont need. any input on that.

[TNT]

The DS frame is one of the most technologically advanced frames on the market, most people just don't understand it….95% good with a few quams, most frames have more.

The upper engine mount and front a-arm transfer plates can use some improvements.

I didn't mean to discourage you on the upper engine mount. Too much load is being dumped into the upper frame bracket from the engine and being transferred to the rails you made up. The weight of the engine is mainly supported at the lower sill(floor) and bolted in their, as you perform riding manufers the upper engine puts a bending moment on the bracket and rails. BRP made several mistakes up here. When you bend sheet metal like the bracket, it is already bent, and can become weak…they did this since they were able to use one part vs. two nested, less cost and assembly time. You could use steel, two nested laped and bolted together parts to get from the engine bolt to the frame rails.

The curved stretch die frame rails - those are AL bar extrusions formed around a die as I said last post, the curve area is weak. You're on the right track with your design, but here again you add an additional part per side, welding, and weight. In your effort to redesign the engine sheet metal bracket, as I said, use it as a frame gusset too over your weld, add two more bolts and nuts if you got room. The bolts your add should be 4x the diameter of the bolt apart and 2xs to any edge of the part…..But now you have to find some .080 steel, cut out the right flat shape, then bend it straight which to do right need a brake press or you may be able to buy it formed, maybe a Z, T, L, or combination bolted together. Break pressing is usually done in a soft condition then heat treat later for strength, so the part does not crack or have residual internal stresses.

The engine case mount through hole lacks metal around the bolt, other than redoing the casting…hummm I'd have to look at that closer when I got time, but idea is to stop it from tearing out the engine case.

Sorry about typos my sholder is broke. Got questions ask.

PS: Tired I'll try and answer the coolant and electrical one tomorrow. Have a nice night :D

[florentino]

Originally posted by TNT
The DS frame is one of the most technologically advanced frames on the market, most people just don't understand it….95% good with a few quams, most frames have more.

tnt thanks for all your help. having a can am is a chanllege for sure. not your average bike. oh well i am stuck.

The upper engine mount and front a-arm transfer plates can use some improvements.
the one thing i have notice is if something fails in the frame like the motor mount something else will follow like dominos.

i am only worried about the motor mount area. i dont care about the top too much. y really thing that the can am could use more motor mounts but there is no room for it.
i just call warnet racing and they have the frame rails for 60$ each woow thats cheap. but is ok, i may not need them.


I didn't mean to discourage you on the upper engine mount. Too much load is being dumped into the upper frame bracket from the engine and being transferred to the rails you made up. The weight of the engine is mainly supported at the lower sill(floor) and bolted in their, as you perform riding manufers the upper engine puts a bending moment on the bracket and rails. BRP made several mistakes up here. When you bend sheet metal like the bracket, it is already bent, and can become weak…they did this since they were able to use one part vs. two nested, less cost and assembly time. You could use steel, two nested laped and bolted together parts to get from the engine bolt to the frame rails.

The curved stretch die frame rails - those are AL bar extrusions formed around a die as I said last post, the curve area is weak. You're on the right track with your design,

i did not use a one piece of steel cause it would be too hard for me to duplicate the bends

The engine case mount through hole lacks metal around the bolt, other than redoing the casting…hummm I'd have to look at that closer when I got time, but idea is to stop it from tearing out the engine case.

Sorry about typos my sholder is broke. Got questions ask.

hey do you have pics of your water tank?? i whant to put it some where else.. also the coils. any pics on that.

[TNT]

I was looking at this closer last night, if you go look at the area you will see what I have been saying all along. BRP got their part count and cost down, but it's not the best design. When factories have more parts than necessary it brings up their operating cost(time and materials) significantly….there is a lot to choosing the right parts or number of parts to get the job done, to satisfy cost, schedule, structural integrity, engineers try….When it comes to mass production it's definitely not a matter of grabbing anything off the shelf and slapping it together, theres a lot of thought and consideration and often times buget and schedule get in the way of structural integrity. The computer is a significant tool, but it's has it's limitations, just like the mechanic has tools that are only as good as his or her knowledge of selecting the right tool and knowing how to use it.

You can see the curved upper engine bolt bracket is being used to support the bend in the frame rails, like doublers. The braket and rails are made out of thin metal and cracks. The braket from the engine trying to rotate puts too much bending load in the structure and cracks them more than likely at the hole the bolts go through or where the bends are. It would be ideal to take some rectangular bar like you used on your frame rails and use it as the bracket since closed sections like this used all over the DS are very strong, even aluminum ones. Your limited on room, access to the fasteners. Other option is nested steel details as I described in previous post. You could use thicker AL but space may be the limiting or deciding factor. Our Yam uses steel here and the sleeves through the engine are much larger. If you can find some steel sleeves to replace the stock ones the engine bolt goes through that are a tight fit, that and a better bracket would stop the high load the frame rails see. In that case, the stock frame rails would work is my guess and it just be a matter of replacing the sheet metal bracket and two engine bolt sleeves. Why BRP did not do this in 2009-2010 is beyond me. Cost be my guess.

[florentino]

Originally posted by TNT
I was looking at this closer last night, if you go look at the area you will see what I have been saying all along. BRP got their part count and cost down, but it's not the best design. When factories have more parts than necessary it brings up their operating cost(time and materials) significantly….there is a lot to choosing the right parts or number of parts to get the job done, to satisfy cost, schedule, structural integrity, engineers try….When it comes to mass production it's definitely not a matter of grabbing anything off the shelf and slapping it together, theres a lot of thought and consideration and often times buget and schedule get in the way of structural integrity. The computer is a significant tool, but it's has it's limitations, just like the mechanic has tools that are only as good as his or her knowledge of selecting the right tool and knowing how to use it.

You can see the curved upper engine bolt bracket is being used to support the bend in the frame rails, like doublers. The braket and rails are made out of thin metal and cracks. The braket from the engine trying to rotate puts too much bending load in the structure and cracks them more than likely at the hole the bolts go through or where the bends are. It would be ideal to take some rectangular bar like you used on your frame rails and use it as the bracket since closed sections like this used all over the DS are very strong, even aluminum ones. Your limited on room, access to the fasteners. Other option is nested steel details as I described in previous post. You could use thicker AL but space may be the limiting or deciding factor. Our Yam uses steel here and the sleeves through the engine are much larger. If you can find some steel sleeves to replace the stock ones the engine bolt goes through that are a tight fit, that and a better bracket would stop the high load the frame rails see. In that case, the stock frame rails would work is my guess and it just be a matter of replacing the sheet metal bracket and two engine bolt sleeves. Why BRP did not do this in 2009-2010 is beyond me. Cost be my guess.

the good news is that we are getting to know the weak areas on the frame.
and i see the pic of what you are taking about.
the aluminum motor mounts are breaking cause the frame rails are moving up and down and side ways. not strong
so the motor mounts are only $10 each. i will oder 2 for now and then make them out of steel. the nice thing about my frame rails is they have the same dimensions as the stock ones.
i will post more pics off more ideas.

[florentino]

this block at the top will help alot. to conect the 2 pieces together

[TNT]

Originally posted by florentino
i will also get rid of the cooland tank in put it some where else. and i want to get rid of some electrical things i dont need. any input on that.

For most the stock coolant system will work fine. For die hard racers there are several things that will help reduce temps, stay out of the limp mode if it has not been removed. If you are a 08 owner get the update to 09/10 limp temps/revs.

BCS makes a kit that brings down the temp last I heard 20 F, check with them for updates. Any amount you can bring down temps will pro-long engine life and pay for itself in the long run. For what BCS provides, it well worth your time and money.

Like structures fluid flow dynamics is a strange critter…A lot depends on the pipe diameter, flow rate, turbulence, laminar (smooth) flow, rates, and where they all occur. How fast coolant is moved through the engine and radiator combined with all the other system factors will determine overall coolant efficiency.

One could try different fluids, hose diameters, baffles that straighten out turbulence say out of the pump, different size radiators, different fans (although air is not a good conductor of heat depending on a lot of factors in the air). Some gut their thermostat, reposition it, but in baffles to produce turbulence because in some locations it can improve effect since it curculates cooler fluid at the core to the boundry layer at the pipe.

Theres a lot of controversy surrounding recovery tanks, they provide an expansion chamber and closed pressurized system. Problem with quads due to space restrictions they are often located above the engine, unlike a car away and air cooled. So there's a good argument to remove or relocate them as BCS does, weld on a radiator cap let coolant puke out to it rather than recirculation like the stock system.

It's just a matter of experimenting with say in-line temp gages, say in-out of the radiator and engine. If I had time I'd find it interesting to make a system of my own.

I don't have a good pic of the BCS system they may have one on their site or give them a call. I'm sure Jason be happy to oblige.They also offer a race harness that gets rid of fuses and extraneous circuits.

[florentino]

Originally posted by TNT
The DS frame is one of the most technologically advanced frames on the market, most people just don't understand it….95% good with a few quams, most frames have more.

The upper engine mount and front a-arm transfer plates can use some improvements.

I didn't mean to discourage you on the upper engine mount. Too much load is being dumped into the upper frame bracket from the engine and being transferred to the rails you made up. The weight of the engine is mainly supported at the lower sill(floor) and bolted in their, as you perform riding manufers the upper engine puts a bending moment on the bracket and rails. BRP made several mistakes up here. When you bend sheet metal like the bracket, it is already bent, and can become weak…they did this since they were able to use one part vs. two nested, less cost and assembly time. You could use steel, two nested laped and bolted together parts to get from the engine bolt to the frame rails.

The curved stretch die frame rails - those are AL bar extrusions formed around a die as I said last post, the curve area is weak. You're on the right track with your design, but here again you add an additional part per side, welding, and weight. In your effort to redesign the engine sheet metal bracket, as I said, use it as a frame gusset too over your weld, add two more bolts and nuts if you got room. The bolts your add should be 4x the diameter of the bolt apart and 2xs to any edge of the part…..But now you have to find some .080 steel, cut out the right flat shape, then bend it straight which to do right need a brake press or you may be able to buy it formed, maybe a Z, T, L, or combination bolted together. Break pressing is usually done in a soft condition then heat treat later for strength, so the part does not crack or have residual internal stresses.

The engine case mount through hole lacks metal around the bolt, other than redoing the casting…hummm I'd have to look at that closer when I got time, but idea is to stop it from tearing out the engine case.

Sorry about typos my sholder is broke. Got questions ask.

PS: Tired I'll try and answer the coolant and electrical one tomorrow. Have a nice night :D tnt you better like this motor mounts. its 1/4 inch think aluminum it will have 3 bolts on the top insted of 2.
i also notice lots of play in the bolt that holds the motor. the bolt is 5/16s thick i may go with some bigger bolt later.
now there is one thing i may put them closer to the motor more rigid i will play by ear. i am actually really happy its really going to work. last season i race the can am with broken frame parts. so i know it will hold on. you can see in the pic how much bettter the mount is. i just have to do final touch ups but you get the pic.
what ever happen to xoxoxo guy and some others that would always said all kinds of things. well guys we really need to see more pics and we can help you.

[TNT]

I've got nothing more to offer this thread as a Structural Engineer, to the riders and BRP and thier race teams, suppliers, after-market companines, if you find it necessary re-read it.

I truely hope it helps you in some way produce a better product to your customers. Thank you for coming on board and helping the industry succeed.

I aslo hope it opened some eyes to how hard it is to produce a quad and all the thought that goes into it @ the OEM level. Right, wrong, or indifferent.

TNT

[florentino]

Originally posted by TNT
I've got nothing more to offer this thread as a Structural Engineer, to the riders and BRP and thier race teams, suppliers, after-market companines, if you find it necessary re-read it.

I truely hope it helps you in some way produce a better product to your customers. Thank you for coming on board and helping the industry succeed.

I aslo hope it opened some eyes to how hard it is to produce a quad and all the thought that goes into it @ the OEM level. Right, wrong, or indifferent.

TNT ok the reason why i did this was because i need it the quad back. cause there is a race i have to do. until i get my other race quad going? the good thing is that can aways go back to stock if this does not work.
and at the same time you ask for the pics. like if i could not do it.
well bottom line is. once i am on the track on the big jumps i will feal the change.
i know how you wanted the motor mounts. whent onother way. i can even put the stock ones.
so you did not tell me what do you think about the motor mounts.
and thanks again tnt for you time. i am sure you have better things to do. i am doing this for my self i will never make this for anyone. i will post a video at the races on my helmet cam.
and as far as the cam am i will never buy any kind of ds can am 450 even if they fix it. japan bikes may look simple but they really did homework. i will never sell my yamaha yfz 450 its bullet proof just the wear and tear and 2 bottom ends 5 top ends in 5 years. over 140 hrs. and i know some can am guys dont want to hear that. oh well too bad. on the other funny thing i will be racing vs onother can am same as mine. my home made pipe is going to blow his $500 can. out of the water.
just my 2 cents.

[Blizzard24]

Originally posted by florentino
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xg5a3dU5YdY
heres a vid after the new frame parts it feals a little too solid. but hey it work just fine, i was doing really good untill i got tired.
i am 31 and i dont ride anymore and i was on my all stock suspencion vs nice race bikes.
for the first time ever there was a can am rig with a full motoworks race bike and kid was only 13 years old and he won the race i was happy to see a nice race bike. the kid was taking off the line in 3rd gear. in moto 1 i got the holeshot and in moto i as 2nd in the holeshot. not bad at all for a stock can am. my street bike pipe must be working.
ps the bike work great i suck that day.

And this week you like the DS450 again... gee there's a suprise:rolleyes:

[HOBS DS450]

WOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooHooooooooooooo

Congrats on picking up the Kawi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here's some places for you to visit

www.kawasakimotorcycle.org/forum
www.kawasakiforums.com
www.kawasakiforum.com
www.kawieriders.com


Later!

[805ds]

I CAN SEE THE L O V E !! FOR THIS GUY!!:o