450R Spindle advantages?

[86Rrider]

OK guys, I tried searching for this and after reading about a dozen different threads, I did not find the answer I looking for. But if someone knows this is located somewhere on here, please post me a link...

Anyway, I'm looking for what advantage there is, if any, of switching to 450R spindles or 400EX spindles other than they are made of aluminum vs. the cast iron 250R stockers. A friend of mine, and former 250R owner (now on a 450R) gave me a set of 450R spindles and told me that I should put them on my 250R to improve the handling. Has anyone else heard of this or know more about it?

I was looking at the 450R spindles last night and noting the differences in design vs. the 250R's. The first thing that stood out to me was that the tie rod arm is higher-up on the 450R part. Also that the ball joint area is a larger diameter than the 250R. So, I'm not sure what advantage I am going to see here?

Is this spindle suppose to give you more caster or camber then the 250R spindle?

[troybilt]

04/05's turn about the same as a 250r, certainly not better. The 06+ 450r's were actually alot worse. Its common to change the newer 450r's to 04/05 spindles and hubs. The 250r hubs and 06+ hubs can be interchanged from what I hear.

I can't think of any advantage they'd have other than aluminum so maybe unsprung weight would be better, might be stronger but that's reaching, I've never seen a spindle break from normal use. The 250r's handle better and turn better than any year of 450r.

Maybe the bearings are better on 450r hubs? I've had a set of 04/05's, 06+, and my 250r hubs all side by side and nothing really stood out to me.

[atvmxr]

probably so you can use the 450r calipers which are abundant and thus lower price versus the cost of buying, or effort of rebuilding, some 250r calipers...

[K-Dub]

I have Roll +3 Lobo II arms on my 250R, and run 4 -1 offset wheel. I cant run the 250R spindles as the wheel wont fit over the top hiem joint. The 450R spindle is offset just enough to clear. Also talking with Roll Design when I bought my arms they reccomended the use of 400ex spindle due to binding with the 250R spindle. So I went 05 450R to get the clearence and the newer brakes thats still avalible from Honda.

[rustyATV]

I went with the 450R front end because, when they first came out, the calipers were only $45 new from Honda, vs $150 (?) for the 250R. I had bent a spindle and my front brakes were like sponges. The 450R brakes were reportedly the best that had ever been put on a quad when they came out, so I replaced my whole brake and and steering system on my R.

I didn't notice any loss in handling in my quad even though, on paper, the 450R spindles don't have any ackerman to them (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ackermann_steering_geometry).

[mxduner]

At least on the 400ex, the tie rod placement is the big difference in clearance (rod end on opposite side)

less bump steer might be the biggest difference. Look at your outside tie rod with the wheel cranked all the way. now look at the 450 spindle and picture where the tie rod would be with that set up. Hopefully the 450 is the same as the 400. The clearance is much greater.if so now compress the suspension with the bars straight and watch the action and angle of the tie rod in relation to how it changes the toe in/out thru its travel, and try to picture the difference. I hope that helps.

[86Rrider]

Thanks for the replies guys! From what all of you have said, it kind of sounds like I might be waisting my time to change them.

I have a set of Lager +2+1 A-arms on my '86R. I just took the original brake calipers off back in June because 1 of them seized and I needed the machine for a ride, so I bought a used set off one of the members here. Likewise, I do not use the front brakes that much when I ride, so I don't wear things out up there very quickly, therefore, I'm not really needing to replace brake parts that often. No advantage for me on the 450R brake stuff.

I guess I need to ask my friend again what is it that he was told changing the spindles out was suppose to do.

mxduner- I can picture in my head what it is that you are discribing in your post, but is there any advantage to what you are talking about? Are you saying that the bump-steer and toe change is worse with the 250R spindle and better with the 450R spindle? Or the opposite?

[CODY_M11]

Can you run 400 or 450 brakes with 250r spindles? If so what all parts are required for this swap?

[mxduner]

Originally posted by 86Rrider
Thanks for the replies guys! From what all of you have said, it kind of sounds like I might be waisting my time to change them.

I have a set of Lager +2+1 A-arms on my '86R. I just took the original brake calipers off back in June because 1 of them seized and I needed the machine for a ride, so I bought a used set off one of the members here. Likewise, I do not use the front brakes that much when I ride, so I don't wear things out up there very quickly, therefore, I'm not really needing to replace brake parts that often. No advantage for me on the 450R brake stuff.

I guess I need to ask my friend again what is it that he was told changing the spindles out was suppose to do.

mxduner- I can picture in my head what it is that you are discribing in your post, but is there any advantage to what you are talking about? Are you saying that the bump-steer and toe change is worse with the 250R spindle and better with the 450R spindle? Or the opposite? well unsure about the 450, but the 400 spindles reduce bump steer, which is a good thing and is improved over the 250r. read this thread, it has a great amount to learn on this subject

read this (http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=300433)

[86Rrider]

Yeah, I read that thread about a year ago, but have not been back to it to see if anymore was added. I understand all the terms and theroies very well, I was a front-end tech at a Chevy dealership for 2 years before I moved on to other higher-paying jobs.

I get what you mean with the location / angle change for the tie rods and reducing the bump-steer. I was looking to find out if the design of the spindles did anything else.

I e-mailed my friend that gave me the spindles and he said that he read on trx450r.org that the '06 + spindles/knuckles were an improvement over the '04-'05 ones as well as much better than the 250R spindles for caster, camber and bump-steer. He said that he had no first-hand experience if this was true, so he was waiting to see what happened when I bolted the 450R ones on my 250R. He said the post he read also said the all the 250R components would bolt to the spindle as well.

I guess, if anything, I might do it for the possible bump-steer improvement.

Anyone else have any experience with these? Am I going to create problems for myself doing this? Is this 450R site correct on the 250R parts will bolt-on or is that untrue? (i.e. wheel bearings, hubs, brake calipers)

[rustyATV]

Originally posted by 86Rrider
Y Is this 450R site correct on the 250R parts will bolt-on or is that untrue? (i.e. wheel bearings, hubs, brake calipers)

Don't know about the bearings, but the 250R hubs will NOT fit. The 450R spindle and hubs have to be used together.

[Flynbryan19]

Originally posted by 86Rrider

I e-mailed my friend that gave me the spindles and he said that he read on trx450r.org that the '06 + spindles/knuckles were an improvement over the '04-'05 ones as well as much better than the 250R spindles for caster, camber and bump-steer. He said that he had no first-hand experience if this was true, so he was waiting to see what happened when I bolted the 450R ones on my 250R. He said the post he read also said the all the 250R components would bolt to the spindle as well.


Don't know for sure about on the 250R, but the 06+ spindles on the 450R are WORSE than the 04-05' spindles for handling I know for a fact.

[troybilt]

Originally posted by Flynbryan19
Don't know for sure about on the 250R, but the 06+ spindles on the 450R are WORSE than the 04-05' spindles for handling I know for a fact.

X2... the upgrade for the 06+ is the o4/05 front end. I switched mine and it was wayyyyyy better.

[dynofox]

Originally posted by rustyATV
I went with the 450R front end because, when they first came out, the calipers were only $45 new from Honda, vs $150 (?) for the 250R. I had bent a spindle and my front brakes were like sponges. The 450R brakes were reportedly the best that had ever been put on a quad when they came out, so I replaced my whole brake and and steering system on my R.

I didn't notice any loss in handling in my quad even though, on paper, the 450R spindles don't have any ackerman to them (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ackermann_steering_geometry).

Do you feel the 450r front calipers are better than a properly working 250r set up? I've been really impressed with the brakes on the 250r, better than the 400ex's I owned in the past. I am using a 450r front master cylinder as my stock 250r unit needed a rebuild when I first bought it and found a smokin deal on a take off 450r master.

[rustyATV]

Originally posted by dynofox
Do you feel the 450r front calipers are better than a properly working 250r set up? I've been really impressed with the brakes on the 250r, better than the 400ex's I owned in the past. I am using a 450r front master cylinder as my stock 250r unit needed a rebuild when I first bought it and found a smokin deal on a take off 450r master.

I can't say. My 250R front brakes were only working right when I first got the quad many years ago. After that they were problematic for a few years until I put the 450's on. With those brakes, I could stand my R up on its nose.

[skyeryder]

I have both and I believe bled correctly they stop about the same, the biggest advantage to the 450 set-up in my opinion is the fact i can walk in any shop and get a set of 450 brake pads, when alot of shops don't keep the 250r ones in stock. Plus the lighter alum hubs are nice.

[slamdak8782]

yeah but how often do you need to get brakes. mine have lasted 2 years

[K-Dub]

Ive had 2 250but
R and the stock front brakes where great. But I couldnt do a stoppie on either, rebuilt the brakes on one of them didnt help. Put the 450R brakes on it and she will stand on her nose.

[skyeryder]

Originally posted by slamdak8782
yeah but how often do you need to get brakes. mine have lasted 2 years

About every other or third race when racing XC

[86Rrider]

OK, I spent the last couple of day's lunch hours looking for information on the trx450r.org site (nice site by the way) but I could not find any definite information on the spindle issue of '04-'05 vs. '06+.

So, you guys are certain of this:

'06+ had handling issues, so '04-'05 spindle was the fix....
250R hubs and bearings will not fit on the 450R spindle.....
Only advantage of putting 450R spindles/knuckles on a 250R is for weight and brake component availablility?

Kind of sounds like I don't need to waist my time with those 450R knuckles then.

[troybilt]

There is plenty of information right here in the 450r section, same guys/gals post here as they do on the org....

http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=417166

Yes 04/05's are better setup vs. 06+, no question. Bump steer and push was/is a problem with the 06+ front end.

Not worth switching from 250r front end IMO, ...especially 88/89 front end... You can still get brake pads from several aftermarket companies for the 250r.

Usually my M.O. is going with latest tech, but in this case the engineers that were around in the 80's had the handling figured out on the 88/89's... ...probably not the same schmoes designing the 450r front end.