red bud lap times atv vs db

[#101]

I pulled up the lap times from the dirtbike national race and compared them to what the write up on here says about the atv national and all i can say is :eek2: If i read everything correctly, the atvs were hauling! Do the atvs and bikes run the exact same track?


http://www.racerxonline.com/article/sign-of-the-(lap)-times-red-bud.aspx


"Wienen would lay down the fastest lap time of any racer with a time of 02:15.043"


----- cant get the racerx link to work for some reason, but google "red bud lap times" and its the first one to pop up.

[DVS_Freestyler]

tracks are not the same. Was any quad doing Larocco's leap?

[jesseweaver]

Originally posted by DVS_Freestyler
tracks are not the same. Was any quad doing Larocco's leap?

i think you just volunteered yourself! :p what are you guys up to now days? i havent been following qfmx forever

[bracey]

Originally posted by DVS_Freestyler
tracks are not the same. what was diffrent about the tracks ??????

[ronnoc47]

I was there. I checked the track map for the bike national and the track apears to be the exact same layout. The article says that Wienen was about 5 seconds faster a lap but I think it was more like about 2 seconds. If ATV's were allowed to ride the same day as the bike Nationals, this would be the track to do it at. I think that the bike crowd would be blown away at how fast the quads get around that track.

[bbender85]

yeah i heard them say over the loudspeaker that weinen was running 5 seconds faster than the bikes. :eek:

[DVS_Freestyler]

i'm sure the layout is the same, but the jumps/whoops/obstacles are not. I'm all for quads but it's just not possible for a quad to scrub like a bike, which is where they make up all their time.

[Fralick #81]

I was actually at Red Bud for both the bike and quad nationals. The track was NOT changed for the diffrent events. The only really diffrence in the track was the lack of ruts from the bike national. And yes they anounced at the race that chads lap time was 5 secconds faster than the fastest bike. I just cant understand how the bike national can draw such a huge crowd and there be about one quarter of the people there for quad nats

[TrapZ400]

Originally posted by Fralick #81
I was actually at Red Bud for both the bike and quad nationals. The track was NOT changed for the diffrent events. The only really diffrence in the track was the lack of ruts from the bike national. And yes they anounced at the race that chads lap time was 5 secconds faster than the fastest bike. I just cant understand how the bike national can draw such a huge crowd and there be about one quarter of the people there for quad nats
They need better marketing to draw in the spectators. Everyone knows when the bike nationals are coming to town because they advertise it. ATV racing doesnt get anywhere near the amount of advertising that the bikes do. The atvs just get radio ads a day or two before the race and small newspaper articles. They need to have posters in every dealership promoting the atv nationals. Theres a lot of atv riders and race fans out there that would enjoy watching the pros race but most of them dont know about it.

This is one of the biggest problems with the sport in my opinion

[toby400ex]

Originally posted by Fralick #81
I was actually at Red Bud for both the bike and quad nationals. The track was NOT changed for the diffrent events. The only really diffrence in the track was the lack of ruts from the bike national. And yes they anounced at the race that chads lap time was 5 secconds faster than the fastest bike. I just cant understand how the bike national can draw such a huge crowd and there be about one quarter of the people there for quad nats TV coverage. People see the bikes on TV and wanna see it in person..

[mxduner]

4 wheels has to give it time. 2 wheels has been a tradition in the mx world for decades. promotions and it's inconsistencies has to be part of the problem imo. heck when bikes where packing stadiums full, atv racing was nearly non existent but only at a grassroot level. and the factory's were not involved in it, as they were afraid of the lawsuits involved. The factory's have/had been involved for only 3-5 years and suddenly people want atv racing pouring out of the espn's and speed channels while manufacturers are pulling out. Something isn't adding up here...

[Jim417mx]

I'd like to add a funny texting conversation between my 2 buddys:

Buddy1: Hey quads are faster at redbud than bikes

Buddy 2 : Ya but at least we hit laroccos leap on bikes

Buddy 1: thats not the point, we're faster

Buddy 2: Oh, at least our best guys name doesnt sound like wiener

Buddy 1: at least our best rider isnt black!

[trompen542]

I was there for both, the tracks were the same, the quads were faster in the corners because of the lack of ruts, they were doing all of the same jumps (except the leap), and only 1/2 or less of the bikes were doing it. The crowd at the dirt bike national is made up of more then racers, a lot of them go to party, and probably don't even remember the races. The advertising brings in a lot of people, that have not ever seen that type of racing, and then there are guys like me that keep going year after year to root on our favorite rider.

[#101]

Originally posted by Jim417mx
I'd like to add a funny texting conversation between my 2 buddys:

Buddy1: Hey quads are faster at redbud than bikes

Buddy 2 : Ya but at least we hit laroccos leap on bikes

Buddy 1: thats not the point, we're faster

Buddy 2: Oh, at least our best guys name doesnt sound like wiener

Buddy 1: at least our best rider isnt black!


Haha good stuff. The lap times just goes to show that quads can be just as fast as dirtbikes on the same track. Quads are faster going into the corners and bikes are quicker coming out for the most part. Bikes do scrub alot better but i guess some times thats not enough to make up for the time lost entering the corners. Of course thats all jmo but ive ridden with cooper webb who will probably be one of the top pro mx riders in a few years, and i would almost run into him in the corners when he came around to lap me :D

[dehner47]

Originally posted by #101
Haha good stuff. The lap times just goes to show that quads can be just as fast as dirtbikes on the same track. Quads are faster going into the corners and bikes are quicker coming out for the most part. Bikes do scrub alot better but i guess some times thats not enough to make up for the time lost entering the corners. Of course thats all jmo but ive ridden with cooper webb who will probably be one of the top pro mx riders in a few years, and i would almost run into him in the corners when he came around to lap me :D

isnt Cooper Webb on CRF150??? so really thats no comparison. unless your on 150 also.

i have had this conversation with guys every year before, during and after ever Red Bud and MT. Morris race. cause for some reason, this conversation always came up at these two races. everyone saying quads run or ran faster then the bikes. get over it everyone!!! you all really gonna tell me that Chad Weinen ran 5 seconds faster a lap then Ryan Dungey did a few weeks ago at the bike national. guess Chad needs to start racing bikes and start earning some reall money. cause 5 seconds faster then the current points leader at the bike nationals, dudes riding the wrong machine.

this debate will go on forever. the only possible way to clear it up is line Weinen up next to Dungey and let the battle for 3 laps. ill put my house on the line that dungey walks him all three laps. and im not even a Dungey fan. but in all reality guys, a quad will never run the same/faster lap times as a pro bike does.

every track owner in the country that puts on a bike and quad national will tell you, they "tame" certain sections of the track down for the quads compaired to the bikes. and Red Bud and Tim Ritchie (track owner) has always been known to hate quads and for "track taming" for the quads. it is what it is.. the truth hurts...

[300racer]

Originally posted by dehner47
isnt Cooper Webb on CRF150??? so really thats no comparison. unless your on 150 also.

i have had this conversation with guys every year before, during and after ever Red Bud and MT. Morris race. cause for some reason, this conversation always came up at these two races. everyone saying quads run or ran faster then the bikes. get over it everyone!!! you all really gonna tell me that Chad Weinen ran 5 seconds faster a lap then Ryan Dungey did a few weeks ago at the bike national. guess Chad needs to start racing bikes and start earning some reall money. cause 5 seconds faster then the current points leader at the bike nationals, dudes riding the wrong machine.

this debate will go on forever. the only possible way to clear it up is line Weinen up next to Dungey and let the battle for 3 laps. ill put my house on the line that dungey walks him all three laps. and im not even a Dungey fan. but in all reality guys, a quad will never run the same/faster lap times as a pro bike does.

every track owner in the country that puts on a bike and quad national will tell you, they "tame" certain sections of the track down for the quads compaired to the bikes. and Red Bud and Tim Ritchie (track owner) has always been known to hate quads and for "track taming" for the quads. it is what it is.. the truth hurts...

i kinda agree. i don't know about them changing the track but i think the reason the quads was faster is cause of track conditions. the corners are alot rougher with the bike i think.
but it think the atv nat's are more exciting to watch the bike nat's it seems 1 or 2 guys will pull away a dominate and they get spread out. the atv's seem to stay bunched up and more racey (sp) for the most part.

but gncc's i think the quad do run alot fast than the bike do!

[trompen542]

i have had this conversation with guys every year before, during and after ever Red Bud and MT. Morris race. cause for some reason, this conversation always came up at these two races. everyone saying quads run or ran faster then the bikes. get over it everyone!!! you all really gonna tell me that Chad Weinen ran 5 seconds faster a lap then Ryan Dungey did a few weeks ago at the bike national. guess Chad needs to start racing bikes and start earning some reall money. cause 5 seconds faster then the current points leader at the bike nationals, dudes riding the wrong machine.

this debate will go on forever. the only possible way to clear it up is line Weinen up next to Dungey and let the battle for 3 laps. ill put my house on the line that dungey walks him all three laps. and im not even a Dungey fan. but in all reality guys, a quad will never run the same/faster lap times as a pro bike does.

every track owner in the country that puts on a bike and quad national will tell you, they "tame" certain sections of the track down for the quads compaired to the bikes. and Red Bud and Tim Ritchie (track owner) has always been known to hate quads and for "track taming" for the quads. it is what it is.. the truth hurts... [/B][/QUOTE]

Pull up the steel city invitational lap times, same day, same track, same conditions. this should answer some of the questions.

[#101]

Bike size is not really important when it comes to coming into a corner since your not exactly using your hp to stop and turn. I was using him as an example because that joker can fly and is really good in the corners, and im just an average rider. According to the link i posted and the time posted on here, it was only like a 1 second difference between the times. I dont know where the 5 second figure came from, but the 1 second seems alot more realistic. I didnt mean to ruffle any feathers i just thought it was cool to see the quad lap times being so impressive.

[fastredrider44]

Originally posted by 300racer


but gncc's i think the quad do run alot fast than the bike do!

I really can't answer that, But I have practiced with bikes. Quads are faster in sections, but bikes are faster in sections. Hard to say, and the course conditions aren't exactly comparable.

[fastredrider44]

Originally posted by trompen542


Pull up the steel city invitational lap times, same day, same track, same conditions. this should answer some of the questions.

Well, what is the verdict? I don't know where to look.

[dehner47]

[/B][/QUOTE]Pull up the steel city invitational lap times, same day, same track, same conditions. this should answer some of the questions. [/B][/QUOTE]

at Steel City 2007 Grant Langston set the fastest qualifying lap time of 2.07.95

at steel city 2007 Josh Creamer set the fastest qualifying lap time of 2.29

same day, same track, same conditions...

and if ya recall, they tilled the whole track up before the quads went out. bikes kept if rough..

[Jim417mx]

Whys everybody *****ing about different tracks , the topic is about RED BUD and how chad ran a faster lap time than dungey on the SAME EXACT TRACK .. its something every quad rider should stand up for and be proud of... Now are quads faster all around? , hell no, but its just the fact that it happened , and its awesome, but I shoulda figured there was going to be people dissing the fact. Winning is winning, chad pulled a faster lap, bike guys should be giving him props, but i forgot all bike guys are stuck up and hate quads no matter if we prove them wrong or not. Ya other tracks, supercross, and track conditions are all factors, but you know what, the bottom line is chad was faster this year, give him some props.

[dehner47]

Originally posted by Jim417mx
Whys everybody *****ing about different tracks , the topic is about RED BUD and how chad ran a faster lap time than dungey on the SAME EXACT TRACK .. its something every quad rider should stand up for and be proud of... Now are quads faster all around? , hell no, but its just the fact that it happened , and its awesome, but I shoulda figured there was going to be people dissing the fact. Winning is winning, chad pulled a faster lap, bike guys should be giving him props, but i forgot all bike guys are stuck up and hate quads no matter if we prove them wrong or not. Ya other tracks, supercross, and track conditions are all factors, but you know what, the bottom line is chad was faster this year, give him some props.

dude. what are you talking about? i for one am and have been a die hard quad fan for many of years. longer then you been alive. so its not bike guys being dicks. its the facts. this debate has gone on for ages. it will never end...

besides, how you gonna say give props to Chad for pulling a faster lap time. cause the debate is about if the track was changed before the quads ran the track hense the faster lap time. cause if the track was indeed changed, then how you gonna give props to a guy who has a faster lap time on a shorter course. makes no sense to me...

[bmxican345]

If i do recall at steel city in 08 when chad won the atv invitational he was running a mere 4 seconds behind stewart. and i think the verdict was that if he had replaced the two slowest bike guys for the bike race he would have come in second, that is of course going strictly by lap times..

[firefighterjosh]

Originally posted by DVS_Freestyler
i'm sure the layout is the same, but the jumps/whoops/obstacles are not. I'm all for quads but it's just not possible for a quad to scrub like a bike, which is where they make up all their time.

It is the same. Nothing is different!!!

[trompen542]

The track layout was the same, the quads work it in differently, so it doesn't get as many ruts, but according to the bike guys they like the ruts. You are correct about the debate, I raced bikes from1969 to 1988, and quads from 1986 to 2006 so I might have a bit of insight into it. Frankly I just think some people need to argue, no matter what the subject. The quads were flying, but so were the dirt bikes, so props to everyone.

[300racer]

Originally posted by fastredrider44
I really can't answer that, But I have practiced with bikes. Quads are faster in sections, but bikes are faster in sections. Hard to say, and the course conditions aren't exactly comparable.
yeah you can't compare laps cause bikes get a longer course but i stayed and watched bike one day and it seems like they just wasn't as fast as the quads. but i am a quad guy so it might have been all in my head. lol but at the 1 maxc race in indiana chris bach won the dirt bike race and his fastest lap was a 13.15 and kiser won the quads and he ran 12.41. thats the same track but it could have favored a quad also. i wish they would run the quads for 3 hrs also.

[#101]

Since most tracks are built for dirtbikes, they should be faster on the tracks. I guess some tracks just happen to be made that have good lines for quads. I shoulda known this would end up in a pissing contest :ermm: All i know is i would kill to be as fast as weinen or dungey.

[Jim417mx]

Ok seriously, what dont you guys understand about this.. IT WAS THE EXACT SAME TRACK THAT THE BIKES RAN ON SAME LAYOUT SAME JUMPS SAME SINGLES SAME EVERYTHING... WHY DO PEOPLE KEEP THINKIN IT WAS DIFFERENT ?!?!?!?!

[dehner47]

^^^^ cause they do. i have been to a few nationals in my days and we use to argue to get the track owners to give us what they bikes had. ive seen bike jumps bulldozed down by the track owner cause he didnt think quads could do them or clear them. ive seen whoop sections made into half of what the bike whoops where cause the track owners insist the quads couldnt blitz them. ive seen it. and i bet a few others on this forum who have raced the nationals or any other all quad racing series have seen it before too.

[FHKracingZ]

Originally posted by dehner47
^^^^ cause they do. i have been to a few nationals in my days and we use to argue to get the track owners to give us what they bikes had. ive seen bike jumps bulldozed down by the track owner cause he didnt think quads could do them or clear them. ive seen whoop sections made into half of what the bike whoops where cause the track owners insist the quads couldnt blitz them. ive seen it. and i bet a few others on this forum who have raced the nationals or any other all quad racing series have seen it before too.

dehner47 your an idiot. you have no idea what you are talking about. We ran the identical track for our class ( Pro-AM Production) and Pro.

In fact dehner we ran a longer track than the bikes by about 10 feet. After that knarly off camber corner in the pro section the bikes made an immediate left around a tree.

After our first set of practices on the pro section Harve the AMA official asked everybody about changing it to up around the next tree so it wasnt such a sudden turn.

We went up around the next tree instead of the shorter way the bikes ran.

They did not tame the track, it was identical. Even the yellow track markers were still in the track. And if your such good friends with the Richie family why dont you call them up and ask them about it so you can look stupid on here and to them.

Also, you didnt see the pro bikes go race the track the same day as 700 other bike riders did you? Can you imagine how fast the quads would be if the track was just the pros and proam production class riding on them.

[slightlybent47]

I see it as a wake up call to all those that think quads can’t run as fast as a bike. Yes they both have there strong points and weak spots but we are talking about an overall lap time here and to have a quad run close to or in this case beat the bikes, on a national level is something the bike community can no longer deny. To have a racing format like quads accomplish such a feat at a national event is a great way to increase interest in our sport.
I think it’s great.

[Jim417mx]

thank you FHK and slightlybent .... Glad somebody sees the FACTS here. I'm done posting in this topic, damn some people are complete idiots. :mad:

[slightlybent47]

I also think one of the best things that can happen with our sport is to have quads run on the same track and the same weekend as the bikes so that these people can see that we are not to be taken lightly anymore. It seems that mile stones like this only help promote any sport and we need all the help we can get. It’s at times like this that new people begin to take notice.

[TrapZ400]

Its too bad that they wont have the atv open this year at Steel City like they had in 07 and 08. (im pretty sure it was those two years). They were going to have it last year but they decided to have LL on Versus instead. I wish they wouldve had it last year though because the LL tv coverage sucked. lol The whole production was bad. (bad camera angles etc.)

[TrapZ400]

WOW check out this thread on vitalmx. Classic bike riders hating quads.

http://www.vitalmx.com/forums/MotoRelated,20/Pro-ATVs-faster-than-Pro-bikes-at-redbud,1017351

[jigg14]

Originally posted by FHKracingZ
dehner47 your an idiot. you have no idea what you are talking about. We ran the identical track for our class ( Pro-AM Production) and Pro.

In fact dehner we ran a longer track than the bikes by about 10 feet. After that knarly off camber corner in the pro section the bikes made an immediate left around a tree.

After our first set of practices on the pro section Harve the AMA official asked everybody about changing it to up around the next tree so it wasnt such a sudden turn.

We went up around the next tree instead of the shorter way the bikes ran.

They did not tame the track, it was identical. Even the yellow track markers were still in the track. And if your such good friends with the Richie family why dont you call them up and ask them about it so you can look stupid on here and to them.

Also, you didnt see the pro bikes go race the track the same day as 700 other bike riders did you? Can you imagine how fast the quads would be if the track was just the pros and proam production class riding on them.
You're my hero. :cool:

[toby400ex]

I dont care either way, but I dont understand how the ruts the bikes cause has anything to do with the discussion. If the ruts slow them down, and it is caused by the bikes, how is this a hamper to them? The bikes cant just flat out rail a turn without the ruts.

[sexysilverado45]

k on the other forum their *****ing about how theres no breaking bumps if you watch the red bud video the narrartor says it was rough in and out.

also they are saying the turn is like a highway they don't like it that way anyways they ***** because quads take out their ruts in the corner which is the only way they can go threw the corners fast.

its like their saying one thing and then turning around and saying that one thing they hate.

[#101]

It sucks to see how high and mighty dirtbike riders think they are. Alot of the ones around here are like that, and i dont even know why because i can beat 90 percent of them and im not that fast of a rider. I think its because they get upset that they are slower than someone that is on a much heavier and less hp machine than them. They use the excuse that "its easier to ride a quad because you dont need balance", which might be try when you are sitting still or putting around. But when you start moving at a good rate of speed, it is just as difficult to ride an atv as a bike. They both have their pros and cons. Dirtbike riders are never going to be okay with quads unless they become the minority in mx racing (which i highllyyyy doubt will happen). So its probably best to just let them think they are the cool and focus on riding so you can pass more of them :) Im gonna wear a helmet cam next time i go practice and then post it on that website to see what they think of me passing all of the local fast dirtbike guys. Its so funny to see how they come up with so many reasons why the quad times were faster. Like the excuse about the rut... i thought the whole point of a dirtbike having a rut in a corner was to help them corner. I dont know i dont wanna get into it but it just sucks that most of them cant give quad riders any more respect than they do, especially when there are just as many dirtbike goons as there are atv goons.

[Black Sheep]

Unless they rode the track on the same day at approximately the same time the lap times are irrelevant. Doesn't matter if it was the same layout or not the conditions were not the same.

Put the quad on the track after the bikes rode it and the ruts and braking bumps would kill his times.

Put a bike on the same track after the quads and then bike would ba hampered by the smooth corners.

A true test would be to groom the track then let them go out together.

[firefighterjosh]

Didn't dirt Wheels do the test of a bike vs quad and there where almost the same?

[Black Sheep]

Originally posted by firefighterjosh
Didn't dirt Wheels do the test of a bike vs quad and there where almost the same?

They sure did and they admitted the track favored the quad. The corners were smoothed out and they eliminated the doubles/triples. They even admitted had they left the jumps in the bike would have smoked the quad.

[firefighterjosh]

Originally posted by Black Sheep
They sure did and they admitted the track favored the quad. The corners were smoothed out and they eliminated the doubles/triples. They even admitted had they left the jumps in the bike would have smoked the quad.

I'll have to find that article and read it again.

Either way sometimes the quads are faster and sometimes the bikes are.

[reconmaster]

ill say this chad can throw sick lap times i know redbuds no different was there in 08 dehner i know backin the day tracks were changed differently only track that was different in the last few years was glen helen
quads and bikes 2 different animals butlike said quads are more entertaining

[dehner47]

ok. im an idiot i guess. now im starting to realize why alot of true racers wont even come on here any more. cause guys that do know a lil stuff (not saying me. cause obv i know nothing about this sport) cant even have a discussion and a debate with other members without being called an idiot and called names. Pappy and Harlen work hard to grow this site. but immature kids who like to call names to someone they truely know nothing about or there past, are the reason this site will never be a true racers place to go and talk quads n BS. it is what it is...

[dehner47]

Originally posted by FHKracingZ
dehner47 your an idiot. you have no idea what you are talking about. We ran the identical track for our class ( Pro-AM Production) and Pro.

In fact dehner we ran a longer track than the bikes by about 10 feet. After that knarly off camber corner in the pro section the bikes made an immediate left around a tree.

After our first set of practices on the pro section Harve the AMA official asked everybody about changing it to up around the next tree so it wasnt such a sudden turn.

We went up around the next tree instead of the shorter way the bikes ran.

They did not tame the track, it was identical. Even the yellow track markers were still in the track. And if your such good friends with the Richie family why dont you call them up and ask them about it so you can look stupid on here and to them.

Also, you didnt see the pro bikes go race the track the same day as 700 other bike riders did you? Can you imagine how fast the quads would be if the track was just the pros and proam production class riding on them.

and also, if you really read my post, it was talking in my PAST experiences in the racing world with these issues. only stated what ive seen with my eyes and what ive experienced. go line up the whole pro class who is over the age of 25 and raced in the hey day and ask them if they have ever seen tracks cut short or jumps bulldozed before the quads hit them. you would be shocked at the things they have seen and have fought for. but again, us old school riders no nothing compaired to what you new school kids know...

[Pappy]

I just read both threads, here and at Vital....

I dont see alot of difference, a bunch of folks bashing something in a sport that cant really take one side over the other.

4 wheels vs. 2....on a MX track both really need to be set up for each if all out fastest time is the goal. I find it funny that people claim its due to atv's better cornering and complain but every pro ive ever spoke with will tell you corner speed wins races...bike or quad!

I can understand bike riders not wanting to run on a "quad" track, same with quad riders not wanting a 14 inch rutted face to jump off of....it really comes down to what it always does..skill, but noone can deny the track prep can make or break you.

The thread on vital also shows why its so hard for quad racing to grow. With the exception of a few aftermarket companies and teh factory support, our sport is still governeed and financed by those who get the majority of their funds from bikes, street and dirt. Would you want to support quads when the majority of feedback is negative on most levels? And yes, we will forever be demonized by the beer cooler, hillbilly on a UTE....an impresssion many of us have been trying to get rid of for a very long time.

I can see why running close or better lap times means so much to us, but if you think the bike world will just accept it you can forget about it.

[Baracudaaa]

Originally posted by firefighterjosh
Didn't dirt Wheels do the test of a bike vs quad and there where almost the same?

Yep, they did it a while ago and it was Barry Hawk who did the test, and the bike won by a few seconds. Both bike and ATV were yamahas, cant remember if they were factory race bikes though.

When the ATV's ran the opener at Glen Helen, the track was WAAAAAAYYYY different from the dirt bike nationals, it was very tame and had most of the big jumps removed. I remember hearing Natalie complaining that the ATVs should run the exact same layout as the dirt bikes, but to no avail, they ran an easier course. Plus the spectators were about 1/20th of what the dirt bikes would draw.

[dehner47]

Originally posted by FHKracingZ
dehner47 your an idiot. you have no idea what you are talking about. We ran the identical track for our class ( Pro-AM Production) and Pro.

In fact dehner we ran a longer track than the bikes by about 10 feet. After that knarly off camber corner in the pro section the bikes made an immediate left around a tree.

After our first set of practices on the pro section Harve the AMA official asked everybody about changing it to up around the next tree so it wasnt such a sudden turn.

We went up around the next tree instead of the shorter way the bikes ran.

They did not tame the track, it was identical. Even the yellow track markers were still in the track. And if your such good friends with the Richie family why dont you call them up and ask them about it so you can look stupid on here and to them.

Also, you didnt see the pro bikes go race the track the same day as 700 other bike riders did you? Can you imagine how fast the quads would be if the track was just the pros and proam production class riding on them.

ohhh and how on Vitalmx you agree that the jumps might of been "tamed down" but call me an idiot for stating the samething?? your kinda contradicting yourself arent ya???

[Ellingsoc26]

Originally posted by dehner47
ohhh and how on Vitalmx you agree that the jumps might of been "tamed down" but call me an idiot for stating the samething?? your kinda contradicting yourself arent ya???

Dude ur just a troll and a keyboard warrior haha. I was there nothing was changed at all so just dont say anything about **** u dont know nothing about!

[dehner47]

hahahaha okkkk im a troll and an idiot who doesnt know what he is talking about. just like i stated, reason why real racers wont come on these forums. cause people cant even voice there opinion or call others out on them contradicting themselves. ohhh well... ya live and learn...

[Ellingsoc26]

You are a troll just starting **** about something you dont know anything about if u didnt go to both races how can you say anything about it?

[dehner47]

again, ive only stated what the lap times from the 07 invatational said and what PAST experiences i have had with the nationals and there track builders. but again, guess all you young kids know it all and all us old school racers are just idiots who know nothing. this is a arguement with no end. so i out of it. again, reason why real people of this sport wont come on forums and discuss things...

[Ellingsoc26]

I also remeber in 08 chads times put him in the top 5 in the 250 class and top 10 in the 450 class but i cant seem to find them anymore if anyone else can that would be great. Also we are not talking about the past we are talking about what went down a few days ago

[dehner47]

see. thats were we went ashray. cause i am ONLY talking about that ive seen in the past. P A S T!!!! ive said that a few times. "ive seen track builders change the tracks in my days of racing" go ask your English teacher. she willtell you that i was speaking about the past...

but somehow im being attacked when there are a few high profile members on here that have agreed with me on this subject and no one seems to want to call them out... but funny how those high profile quad riders seem to agree with me. but you weekenders just dont seem to understand what im talking about. typical... hense why these "high profile guys" lay low and or not even come on these forums...

[FHKracingZ]

Not trying to get into an internet forum battle on atvriders but where did I say the track was tamed down on vitalmx?

Also I started that thread at VitalMX knowing it was gonna turn into a flame fest. Im a regular at that forum and its so funny because every thread turns into a flame fest. But the truth is alot of industry people read that forum. So even though none of them will admit it, they have now seen the facts and know its true. It may change their perception a little even if they wont admit it.

[Baracudaaa]

From my West Coast perspective, they really dummy up the track for the ATV nationals. Here is a pict of Wimmer coming by the start finish line at an ATV national--

[Baracudaaa]

And here we go for a dirt bike national, same start finish line, same camera location. I know its not the same day, bla bla bla, but they DEFINATELY tame the tracks for us ATV-ers-

[muddy400EX]

its just hard to compare bikes and quads. they both need completely different track layouts to be fast. bikes needs ruts, and steep poppy jumps. quads need smooth corners and smooth floating jumps.

and even if they did a straight up race between chad and dungey, and chad smoked him. it wouldnt help quads at all, it would just make bike guys hate us more, and talk more crap:(

[Brad77]

I don't really have any opinion on the reasoning why the quad lap times were faster.
I do think its way cool that Chad put down such a fast lap.
Although like I have stated on here before. Most dirtbike riders just cant stand quads. In fact it probably wouldn't make any difference if the track was the same, different, almost the same. Just wouldnt matter. The bike riders would still consider quad guys "quadtards". They would still say that quad riders are not as "skilled".
I just really despises me the way those bike guys treat the quad guys.

[Ellingsoc26]

Originally posted by Brad77
I don't really have any opinion on the reasoning why the quad lap times were faster.
I do think its way cool that Chad put down such a fast lap.
Although like I have stated on here before. Most dirtbike riders just cant stand quads. In fact it probably wouldn't make any difference if the track was the same, different, almost the same. Just wouldnt matter. The bike riders would still consider quad guys "quadtards". They would still say that quad riders are not as "skilled".
I just really despise the way those guys treat the quad guys.

Dude i live with a bike rider trust me i know

[fastredrider44]

An atver can switch to a dirtbike better than a DBer switching to an atv. There's a reason. It's harder to go fast on a quad. I ride both, always have, always will, but I will probably race fourwheelers for as long as I can, and continue to ride bikes as a hobby.

[muddy400EX]

Originally posted by fastredrider44
An atver can switch to a dirtbike better than a DBer switching to an atv. There's a reason. It's harder to go fast on a quad. I ride both, always have, always will, but I will probably race fourwheelers for as long as I can, and continue to ride bikes as a hobby.

ya it goes both ways. its hard to ride a bike. but bikers dont realize that a quad takes skill to. they just see four wheels and instantly think its easier. they dont think about extra weight, the leaning into turns, jumpin and landing four wheels straight instead of 2. wish everyone could just get along

[Jim417mx]

barracuda - nice pics, i can totally see the difference, Im not trying to bash you but believe me, I live an hour from redbud, I'm there for EVERY practice and both bike/quad nationals every year, even some ametuar races throughout the year. The track/jumps/jump faces, nothing changes or is "tamed down" at that track EVER. There are only a total of 6 jumps and all of them have over 10ft tall faces to them which is scary as hell hitting on a quad, there is no possible way to "tame them down", they stay the same year round, practice and races. Redbud barely even gets groomed for the pro quads, only the holeshot and a COUPLE turns, the track was horrible this year, my thumb is still blue from jamming it in a giant hole in the monza wall berm:D

[Baracudaaa]

Originally posted by fastredrider44
An atver can switch to a dirtbike better than a DBer switching to an atv. .

Ummm, I guess you have never heard of Beau Barron???? Low level pro dirt biker to #1 WORCS atv pro??????

[Baracudaaa]

Originally posted by Jim417mx
barracuda - nice pics, i can totally see the difference, Im not trying to bash you but believe me, I live an hour from redbud, I'm there for EVERY practice and both bike/quad nationals every year, even some ametuar races throughout the year. The track/jumps/jump faces, nothing changes or is "tamed down" at that track EVER.

I am sure you are correct about Redbud, I have heard gnarly things about it, I just wanted to show what they do at Glen Helen National, which really sucks.

I have a race at Glen Helen in 2 weeks and we will all be running the EXACT same track (db's and atv's) for both motos, Ill see if I can post the lead lap times for the fastest guys for bikes and quads.

[jrspawn]

Ive never raced redbud, so i cant say for that track, but every national track ive either raced or spectated at over the years( that also runs the bike nationals/larger bike series races) was def. different to some extent for the quad races. Some tracks more than others.

Not trying to take anything away from the quads at all, but i just dont see quads being able to run the same lap times on a national track during a bike race weekend. Dont get me wrong im 100% for the quads, but i just dont see a quad lining up with carmichael , stewart, reed, dungey, etc. and throwing down the same lap times.

[trompen542]

Originally posted by fastredrider44
An atver can switch to a dirtbike better than a DBer switching to an atv. There's a reason. It's harder to go fast on a quad. I ride both, always have, always will, but I will probably race fourwheelers for as long as I can, and continue to ride bikes as a hobby.
Gary Denton was pretty successful in his switch from bikes to quads, factory suzuki on both.

[yam450_53]

I'm reading all these arguments and speculation that is going on and I can't bring myself to believe that wienen lapped 5 seconds faster than the fastest dirtbike time... does anyone even have proof? where are the laptimes on paper? I'd love to believe it but it just doesn't make any sense to me at all.

[QuadJunkies]

I think we should have Weinen go back out there and challenge one on one


then we will have our answer ...:devil: :D

[m0t0xk1d]

who says quad riders dont get ruts?


this sure doesnt look like a highway to me :rolleyes:

[Jim417mx]

Originally posted by yam450_53
I'm reading all these arguments and speculation that is going on and I can't bring myself to believe that wienen lapped 5 seconds faster than the fastest dirtbike time... does anyone even have proof? where are the laptimes on paper? I'd love to believe it but it just doesn't make any sense to me at all.


atv lap times (http://www.escoremx.com/results/atvamx/2010/laptimes.asp?s=&c=139&e=10&rn=2&rt=M)

Cant find much for the bikes except their best lap.

Bikes (http://www.racerxonline.com/article/sign-of-the-(lap)-times-red-bud.aspx)

[yam450_53]

Thank-you. Very impressive lap times for the quads compared to the bikes, but still it is not 5 seconds, it's hardly 2 seconds and that's what I wanted to know. Sounds to me like the announcer wanted to hype things up a little or was just misinformed.

[JParisi48]

Originally posted by yam450_53
Thank-you. Very impressive lap times for the quads compared to the bikes, but still it is not 5 seconds, it's hardly 2 seconds and that's what I wanted to know. Sounds to me like the announcer wanted to hype things up a little or was just misinformed. still....how many dirtbike riders say "oh quads are couches dirtbikes are way faster and better and pretty and fun ect ect" a 200lb bike vs a 400lb atv....same hp maybe bikes have more... who do u think should have the fastest lap...

[Robin Hood]

Originally posted by Jim417mx
atv lap times (http://www.escoremx.com/results/atvamx/2010/laptimes.asp?s=&c=139&e=10&rn=2&rt=M)

Cant find much for the bikes except their best lap.

Bikes (http://www.racerxonline.com/article/sign-of-the-(lap)-times-red-bud.aspx)

Looks like the bikers got beaten by homo queer quadtards.. So what does that make them?

[muddy400EX]

Originally posted by TrapZ400
WOW check out this thread on vitalmx. Classic bike riders hating quads.

http://www.vitalmx.com/forums/MotoRelated,20/Pro-ATVs-faster-than-Pro-bikes-at-redbud,1017351

just read through a little of that thread and got sick of "they dont have to deal with the ruts" no chit they dont, quads are not gonna make ruts like a bike because they are not BIKES!

its like saying the bikes would be slower if they had slick smooth turns with no ruts. DURR they would be sliding out everywhere

they just cant give em any props. for bikers acting so hardass, there kinda babies:ermm:

[bracey]

i bet that Weinen and Dungey are not this worried about the lap times .

[slightlybent47]

All you guy’s trying to make the argument that one is better or faster then the other are barking up the wrong tree. The fact is that there all deferent but all require a high level of talent to ride at to top level.
They all have there weaknesses, and yes bikes have been around the longest and have the longest history in the racing seen.
Every format of racing has to go through an evolution and it will take time for quads to become a big event, like the bikes.
You all keep arguing over witch one dose more damage to a track and in fact they all do, just in deferent areas, but damage is damage regardless of where it occurs.
It’s like comparing apples to oranges; it’s just not the same.
Argue all you want http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/sport/sport-smiley-002.gif http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/sport/sport-smiley-008.gif but the fact of the mater is that quads made a great showing at that event and is just another step in our evolution.
Don’t try to read too much into it, it’s just a milestone and should be recognized as one.

I have ridden 2-3 and 4 wheelers since the 70’s and I have plenty of seat time on all of them.
It’s a lot like sex, it doesn’t mater if it’s a red head, brunet, or a blond it takes talent to ride them all.


Oh and don’t forget about the nappy headed ho’s, they are fun to ride too.

[FHKracingZ]

Originally posted by Black Sheep
I have been in this sport for a looong time. I have raced bikes, trikes, and quads and I think I can give an unbiased opinion especially since I no longer race bikes or quads.


Two wheeled motocross can be dated back to the 1920's there is a long tradition established. When you have a long tradition and something new (quads) comes along your gonna have resistance. Quad riders are gonna have to face facts bike riders have had the tracks to themselves and now they have to share them with the quads that destroy their tracks...and yes they are their tracks. They established them and pay for them. There outnumber the quads immensely. Whether you want to admit it or not they destroy tracks/trails. I live right next to the very trails/ track I learned to ride on 30 years ago. Before quads even existed. The quads have destroyed the track and the trails are not much better.

When it comes to riding quads are the easiest to ride. If you don't believe that ask yourself this... Can a 10 year old ride a CRF 450? Because one trip to the dunes and you will see dozens of little kids riding 450's and banshee's. Cornering? Sliding a quad around a corner is ten times easier then laying a bike down. Consider this, you can slowly slide a quad around a corner but, you have to be majorly committed to lay a bike down. Riding a quad through a rutted quad corner is like a slot car. Put your wheels in the ruts and hit the gas...the ruts will do the rest for you.

This crap about lap times is just CRAP!!! They did not race in the same conditions and it was only one race on one track. I have watched both bike and quad nationals and the quads races are like riding on a highway...smooth. Another thing about quads....them stupid nerf bars...WTF..ever since they started to use them quad racing became more like bumper cars...can't pass a guy with your skill...just ram him out of your way in the next corner...BS if you ask me.

Speaking of nationals. I think another thing that could cause some resentment from the bikers are these so called nationals these quads put on. I'm sorry but when you speak of bike nationals your talking about the best riders in the world. When you speak of quad nationals you could be speaking of anything. What I mean is this. The term "nationals" should refer to the pro class series. Not a bunch of C & B class racers. Those would be amateur nationals. To may quads guys say "I'm racing the nationals" it gives the impression they are in the big show. Just like baseball has minor league, nascar has the busch series, and mx has the amateur events quads need to separate the line between the pro nationals and the amateur races. Unless your a pro rider your not in " the nationals"


Finally this crap about what is tougher to ride quads or bikes, or what one is more dangerous. it is spoken like your more of a man if you ride one or the other because of toughness....well newsflash...trikers got you both beat in that department. We ride the most dangerous vehicle known to man. Does that make us better then either of you? :blah:

Everyone needs to lighten up and use this energy to fight with the people we need to fight...the freaking tree huggers and the government.:grr:
Sounds to me you are on the bike side for sure on your opinion.

Calling nerf bars stupid? Obviously you have never been saved by them. Nerfs save crashes every start. They are not made to ram people they are used to keep peoples feet from falling off and getting run over and to keep front and rear wheels from getting lodged in their and causing a wreck. I wonder why sprint cars use nerfs? It must be because they are *****s. :rolleyes:

And saying a NATIONAL is rough. And yes I call it nationals because thats what it is. Its a series that travels around the country with the best of the best in every class racing each other. Yes that is considered Nationals.

Back to the rough subject. You may have watched a quad national but obviously never raced one. They get quad rough. Now since your a bike guy, rough to you is ruts and braking bumps. Rough to a quad is hard slick corners with holes in them and quad ruts. They look different and even may look smooth but they are not. If you think a NATIONAL quad track is smooth you need to find another forum to search.

And YES they ran a FASTER lap at REDBUD. We are not comparing any other tracks. REDBUD is what we are saying. Its common sence the track will shape up different. The fast lines where their for bikes and quads especially at the bike national because only the fast riders ride the track. On that track, the same layout, the track shaped up for both quads and bikes, the quad were faster. End of Story

[braybray08]

Originally posted by Black Sheep



When it comes to riding quads are the easiest to ride. If you don't believe that ask yourself this... Can a 10 year old ride a CRF 450? Because one trip to the dunes and you will see dozens of little kids riding 450's and banshee's. Cornering? Sliding a quad around a corner is ten times easier then laying a bike down. Consider this, you can slowly slide a quad around a corner but, you have to be majorly committed to lay a bike down. Riding a quad through a rutted quad corner is like a slot car. Put your wheels in the ruts and hit the gas...the ruts will do the rest for you.




Ride and race are two different things. Ask anyone who has "raced" both and they will you tell you it takes alot more effort to go fast on a quad.

[yam450_53]

Originally posted by FHKracingZ
Sounds to me you are on the bike side for sure on your opinion.

Calling nerf bars stupid? Obviously you have never been saved by them. Nerfs save crashes every start. They are not made to ram people they are used to keep peoples feet from falling off and getting run over and to keep front and rear wheels from getting lodged in their and causing a wreck. I wonder why sprint cars use nerfs? It must be because they are *****s. :rolleyes:

And saying a NATIONAL is rough. And yes I call it nationals because thats what it is. Its a series that travels around the country with the best of the best in every class racing each other. Yes that is considered Nationals.

Back to the rough subject. You may have watched a quad national but obviously never raced one. They get quad rough. Now since your a bike guy, rough to you is ruts and braking bumps. Rough to a quad is hard slick corners with holes in them and quad ruts. They look different and even may look smooth but they are not. If you think a NATIONAL quad track is smooth you need to find another forum to search.

And YES they ran a FASTER lap at REDBUD. We are not comparing any other tracks. REDBUD is what we are saying. Its common sence the track will shape up different. The fast lines where their for bikes and quads especially at the bike national because only the fast riders ride the track. On that track, the same layout, the track shaped up for both quads and bikes, the quad were faster. End of Story

Thank-you, took the words right out my mouth.

"WTF..ever since they started to use them quad racing became more like bumper cars...can't pass a guy with your skill..."

whaaaaaatt?

[Black Sheep]

Originally posted by FHKracingZ
Sounds to me you are on the bike side for sure on your opinion.

Calling nerf bars stupid? Obviously you have never been saved by them. Nerfs save crashes every start. They are not made to ram people they are used to keep peoples feet from falling off and getting run over and to keep front and rear wheels from getting lodged in their and causing a wreck. I wonder why sprint cars use nerfs? It must be because they are *****s. :rolleyes:

And saying a NATIONAL is rough. And yes I call it nationals because thats what it is. Its a series that travels around the country with the best of the best in every class racing each other. Yes that is considered Nationals.

Back to the rough subject. You may have watched a quad national but obviously never raced one. They get quad rough. Now since your a bike guy, rough to you is ruts and braking bumps. Rough to a quad is hard slick corners with holes in them and quad ruts. They look different and even may look smooth but they are not. If you think a NATIONAL quad track is smooth you need to find another forum to search.

And YES they ran a FASTER lap at REDBUD. We are not comparing any other tracks. REDBUD is what we are saying. Its common sence the track will shape up different. The fast lines where their for bikes and quads especially at the bike national because only the fast riders ride the track. On that track, the same layout, the track shaped up for both quads and bikes, the quad were faster. End of Story


I'm on neither side. I tell the bike guys to deal with it to, quads are here to stay so they need to shut up as well.

Bike guy??? Read my sig... I'm a die hard triker.
You want to talk to me about nerf bars, running over ones leg, how rough it is to turn, and scary starts....LMAO...I ride a three wheeler!!! That is way harder then a quad. In fact it is so hard they banned them and made quads because most people couldn't ride them.

What I am saying about Nationals is when you call the amateur class a national you take the prestige away from the real National. Think of it from a casual viewers point of view...a TV audience if you will. They hear the word and they think Big Time pros. But then they talk to little Johnny down the street who raced the c- class and tells people he just raced a national they do not know the difference and think WOW must not be all that big time....get it?


I could care less what happened at Red Bud. It was on separate occasions so it is irrelevant. When done on the same day at the same time then you have something to brag about. All this crying about wanting bike riders to respect quads...get over it...hell I deal with it from both bikes and quads being that I prefer trikes.

[300racer]

What I am saying about Nationals is when you call the amateur class a national you take the prestige away from the real National. Think of it from a casual viewers point of view...a TV audience if you will. They hear the word and they think Big Time pros. But then they talk to little Johnny down the street who raced the c- class and tells people he just raced a national they do not know the difference and think WOW must not be all that big time....get it?

it is a national. if they talk to johnny down the street maybe they will come check it out and find out WOW it is (big time)

[braybray08]

Originally posted by Black Sheep
I have raced 2,3, and 4 wheelers. I've done MX, SX, AX, hare scrambles.

I've been on Broome-Tioga, Unadilla, Cotton Bowl, Lake Whitney, Englishtown, to name a few.

I won't even ride a quad right now because it is so easy it dulls my trike riding skills. Maybe when I re-retire from trike racing I will but not before then.

I have had more crashes and injuries on bikes then quads and trikes combined and my ride ratio is 50% ATV 50% bikes.


Do I qualify to have an opinion?

:confused: wanna cookie??

If you have done all that you stated and walked to school up hill both ways, you know that quads are harder to go fast on. Why do you think the Gncc afternoon bikes race 3 hours and the afternoon quads only race 2 hours... Quads simply take more effort to go fast on for an extended period of time.

[Black Sheep]

Originally posted by braybray08
:confused: wanna cookie??

If you have done all that you stated and walked to school up hill both ways, you know that quads are harder to go fast on. Why do you think the Gncc afternoon bikes race 3 hours and the afternoon quads only race 2 hours... Quads simply take more effort to go fast on for an extended period of time.


You come at me with "ask someone who's raced both" so I tell you I have and you come back with that? This is why most quad riders don't get respect. Your sport is still in it's infancy and young punks like you demand respect from everyone else but you show none towards the established riders.


I'll say it again for you attention deficit disorder mindset.

I ride trikes don't cry to me how tough a quad is. I'll put ten laps in on a quad and won't even break a sweat compared to 5 laps on a trike.


Quads do less time because they are not the Main show.

[jesseweaver]

go groom red bud, or any national track, and put weinen and any top bike pro on the track at the same time and tell them to go run 40 minutes and id put my life on it the bike finishes a couple minutes ahead

[fastredrider44]

Originally posted by Black Sheep
You come at me with "ask someone who's raced both" so I tell you I have and you come back with that? This is why most quad riders don't get respect. Your sport is still in it's infancy and young punks like you demand respect from everyone else but you show none towards the established riders.



I ride trikes don't cry to me how tough a quad is. I'll put ten laps in on a quad and won't even break a sweat compared to 5 laps on a trike.




I don't demand respect, but when Biker's knock it and have never tried it, it does bother me. Riding and racing ARE two totally different things.

Black Sheep, your trikes are sweet, and I'd even like to have one, but what is the point in racing them? Please don't take that the wrong way, just curious to competition and where you have to go to race.

[Black Sheep]

Originally posted by fastredrider44
I don't demand respect, but when Biker's knock it and have never tried it, it does bother me. Riding and racing ARE two totally different things.

Black Sheep, your trikes are sweet, and I'd even like to have one, but what is the point in racing them? Please don't take that the wrong way, just curious to competition and where you have to go to race.

I can understand that and I'm not trying to imply that all quad riders are like that. However unfortunately the majority of the ones I've seen are.

Thank you and I do not take it wrong.

We run a 10 race series in Ohio. Riders come from Ohio, NY, PA, MD, MI, NJ, IN, and Canada.
Racers ride anything from stock ATC's to modified hybrids. There are highly modified 250R's, 500 two stroke conversions, and several 450 conversions besides the team TPC trikes. That is one thing I love about it...run what you brung..we don't have these silly little rules/arguments about what's faster 2 or 4 stroke...we settle it on the track.

As far as what is the point...well each racer has their own reasons...but for me I do because I love racing trikes and I get paid to do it. I do it because it is exposure for TPC trikes and our sponsors. I also do it because I suck on a bike...lol...and quads are just boring for me.

[motofreak2772]

I think people are taking this way to serious. I think what we are all missing is that wienen ran a ??? on redbud which is crazy fast for a quad or dirtbike. I dont think he would win against the dirtbikes in a race. But that numbers he threw down should be respected by all riders, dirtbikers are just mad because they didn't think or want quads to be fast. Yes they are not faster but we can still go fast which annoys most of them.
I wish quads would start hitting lorrocos leap then the lap times would be even faster.

[FHKracingZ]

I dont understand how it is still not a national. So what johhny blow down the street gets to tell people he raced a national. He did race a national. What is so wrong with a C rider taking some pride in racing a big race? After all, he did spend the $500 to race it did he not?

We need the pros to run with the amateurs because a big attraction for local amateurs to come race is to also see the pros.

We are not big enough as a sport for the amateurs to venture out on their own. We need the image and public attraction of the pros to draw attention and publicity to the amateurs.

[fastredrider44]

Originally posted by Black Sheep

We run a 10 race series in Ohio. Riders come from Ohio, NY, PA, MD, MI, NJ, IN, and Canada.
Racers ride anything from stock ATC's to modified hybrids. There are highly modified 250R's, 500 two stroke conversions, and several 450 conversions besides the team TPC trikes. That is one thing I love about it...run what you brung..we don't have these silly little rules/arguments about what's faster 2 or 4 stroke...we settle it on the track.



I was aware that you raced them, but had no idea about that!

[braybray08]

Originally posted by Black Sheep
You come at me with "ask someone who's raced both" so I tell you I have and you come back with that? This is why most quad riders don't get respect. Your sport is still in it's infancy and young punks like you demand respect from everyone else but you show none towards the established riders.


I'll say it again for you attention deficit disorder mindset.

I ride trikes don't cry to me how tough a quad is. I'll put ten laps in on a quad and won't even break a sweat compared to 5 laps on a trike.


Quads do less time because they are not the Main show.

When did the debate turn into trikes are the hardest to ride, i stated a simple fact about bikes and quads NOT trikes....

I'll say this again for you, I dont care how many laps you put in on your chopped up creation, that isn't the debate

This isn't SX or MX, GNCC is about the racers for the racers, spectators have nothing to do with how long we race, Why don't you ask Mr. Knight which is tougher and make sure you let me know what he says....

[mxduner]

minus the trikes and nerf bars comments, i agree with black sheeps comments, JMO. I have raced both, but i dont want a cookie:D i dont deserve one.

It is great that weinen was flying at red bud my $0.02

[fastredrider44]

Originally posted by braybray08
Why don't you ask Mr. Knight which is tougher and make sure you let me know what he says....

That's a perfect example.

[Black Sheep]

Originally posted by braybray08
When did the debate turn into trikes are the hardest to ride, i stated a simple fact about bikes and quads NOT trikes....

I'll say this again for you, I dont care how many laps you put in on your chopped up creation, that isn't the debate

This isn't SX or MX, GNCC is about the racers for the racers, spectators have nothing to do with how long we race, Why don't you ask Mr. Knight which is tougher and make sure you let me know what he says....


It never did. Look I am done trying to converse with you. All you do is ask me a question then when you don't liken the answer i give you come back with "who asked you." well you did!

I could care less who or what this person thinks. I've been riding longer then you have been alive. I have enough experience with all forms of off-roading to have an opinion of my own.

You come in here crying about not getting respect from riders of the other disciplines but you show none to those who have three times the experience. You want respect but you don't give it. That is the problem I see from most young quad guys and why the bikers don't give it.

[FHKracingZ]

Respect? We can be as nice and respectful as we want to bike riders and we are still gonna get looked down on and called idiots.

You gotta take resepct, and wienen took that ***** with a second faster lap than than dungey.

And Im glad you posted your opinion. Just because you have been riding for 3 decades does not make you an expert on racing. No offence. This is a forum, my opinion, your opinion, and everyone elses gets debated on here. Get use to it.

[Black Sheep]

Originally posted by FHKracingZ
Just because you have been riding for 3 decades does not make you an expert on racing.


I never said it did, like I told the kid before you, don't go asking questions unless you can handle the answer. I could give you my complete resume but it wouldn't matter it's not what you want to hear. You want to hear something that agrees with you and if it doesn't then everyone else is wrong and their experiences/accomplishments don't matter. Even though that is what your asking for. Opinions from those who have done both.

You guys keep crying why others won't give you respect, so I come in her and give you a point of view from someone who has seen it from both sides. Instead of saying WOW, I never thought of it like that you get all defensive and try to start more arguments.


Do us all a favor, go get a 125 two stroke and go race it I'm the nastiest mud you can find on one of the worlds toughest tracks Then get back to me on what's harder to ride.

Until then stop living vicariously through someone else's accomplishments and accomplish something on your own.

Either way it's been a educational conversation but I've grown tired of it and it has gone nowhere . Have fun no matter what you ride because that is what it is all about.

[guy310]

After reading both forums, I had to literally laugh out loud (while at work even) at the pompousness of Black Sheep. What a complete full blown all out self absorbed douche he is!!! I was at Summit this winter again and watched the trikes with interest because by all accounts there were some very nice machines there. I think all custom creations are works of art in there own right. However, when they raced they were a mere curiosity rather than a serious race. Those are definitley some crazy mofos when they were jumping the double, etc., he knows what I am talking about at Summit, but I will tell you as far as getting around the track, they are slow as hell.

I was at both races this year and I had a good time at both. I don't care if Chad can beat Dungey or not. I like quads, I like bikes, I race a quad, I don't race a bike. Quads will have their day it just takes time. The sport is in its infancy and as an interesting side note I do believe that ATV's outsell the other powersports combined. So that would mean the Factory dirtbike racing teams, etc. are all financed with ATV money. Be careful what you wish for dirtbike guys or your gravy train just might dry up.

[Black Sheep]

Originally posted by guy310
After reading both forums, I had to literally laugh out loud (while at work even) at the pompousness of Black Sheep. What a complete full blown all out self absorbed douche he is!!! I was at Summit this winter again and watched the trikes with interest because by all accounts there were some very nice machines there. I think all custom creations are works of art in there own right. However, when they raced they were a mere curiosity rather than a serious race. Those are definitley some crazy mofos when they were jumping the double, etc., he knows what I am talking about at Summit, but I will tell you as far as getting around the track, they are slow as hell.

I was at both races this year and I had a good time at both. I don't care if Chad can beat Dungey or not. I like quads, I like bikes, I race a quad, I don't race a bike. Quads will have their day it just takes time. The sport is in its infancy and as an interesting side note I do believe that ATV's outsell the other powersports combined. So that would mean the Factory dirtbike racing teams, etc. are all financed with ATV money. Be careful what you wish for dirtbike guys or your gravy train just might dry up.

First of all I Never said trikes were faster, second of all I was not racing. I had someone race in my place and he had not been on a trike in over 10 years. Why? Because he spent the last 10 racing and winning championships on quads. If your gonna judge some based on that, well your a fool.

While we are on the subject of summit, I was watching the quads and what did I see...nothing but bumper cars. To pass all they did was ram each other in the corners. Hense my previous statement about the nerf bars.

As far as quads outselling all bikes...You can still find left over 450's in the dealerships dating back to 06 and they haven't made a 2010 model...yet the bikes keep selling out and getting new models.

P.s. If you have been to summit then malvern can't be to far for you. Stop by on Halloween and watch some trikes clear the uphill triple that most quads don't attempt :devil:

[Ellingsoc26]

Originally posted by Black Sheep
As far as quads outselling all bikes...You can still find left over 450's in the dealerships dating back to 06 and they haven't made a 2010 model...yet the bikes keep selling out and getting new models.

First of all he went all ATV's as a whole there are more ATV's sold each year than dirt bikes. There are left overs because they make so many more. So now why don't you just move along because you have done nothing but troll here anyway. Your stupidly is just amazing you should get a medal for it!

[guy310]

"After reading both forums, I had to literally laugh out loud (while at work even) at the pompousness of Black Sheep. What a complete full blown all out self absorbed douche he is!!!"

I stand by my previous statement. I am amazed and in awe of your complete and total lack of grasp of reality. Good day sir.

[Black Sheep]

Originally posted by Ellingsoc26
First of all he went all ATV's as a whole there are more ATV's sold each year than dirt bikes. There are left overs because they make so many more. So now why don't you just move along because you have done nothing but troll here anyway. Your stupidly is just amazing you should get a medal for it!

Talk about double standards. We are supposed to be talking about "racing" machines now to inflate your position you use all quads...including utility and compare them to " just" dirt bike...aka...mx bike sales. Well if you want to includes ALL atv's include ALL motorcycles...street included.


You guys can bust on me all you want...like i said I ride on three I've been getting crap from bikers and the quad guys for years I'm used to it. In the end I'm having the last laugh while I get paid to ride while most of you pay out your *** to ride.

Who's the stupid one now :D

[Black Sheep]

Originally posted by dehner47
hahahaha okkkk im a troll and an idiot who doesnt know what he is talking about. just like i stated, reason why real racers wont come on these forums. cause people cant even voice there opinion or call others out on them contradicting themselves. ohhh well... ya live and learn...

After some of the resent post I would have to agree with your assessment 100%

[#101]

I have a hunch that blacksheep might be a goon. What were we talkin about again? Oh yea, good job weinen!

[motofreak2772]

Originally posted by Black Sheep
Talk about double standards. We are supposed to be talking about "racing" machines now to inflate your position you use all quads...including utility and compare them to " just" dirt bike...aka...mx bike sales. Well if you want to includes ALL atv's include ALL motorcycles...street included.


You guys can bust on me all you want...like i said I ride on three I've been getting crap from bikers and the quad guys for years I'm used to it. In the end I'm having the last laugh while I get paid to ride while most of you pay out your *** to ride.

Who's the stupid one now :D
What double standards? atv sales include utility quads. You can't include street bikes because that is totally different. Unless you want to include cars because they have 4 wheels... As far as offroad sales we outsell them(says ellingsco, idk for sure). No one has mentioned your trike or how you get paid to ride, that has nothing to do with the topic. How about you go to your tricycle forum and brag there. You are acting like a troll when everyone should just congradulate wienen on the fast lap.

[Black Sheep]

Originally posted by motofreak2772
No one has mentioned your trike or how you get paid to ride, that has nothing to do with the topic. How about you go to your tricycle forum and brag there.


Actually I was asked by fastredrider two pages back. :blah:

[slightlybent47]

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/spezial/Fool/bur2.gifSounds to me like we don’t need any tree huggers to bring down our sport, you guy’s are doing a great job of it al by your selves.

It is a great milestone for the sport, nothing more. Get over ithttp://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/spezial/Fool/ma.gif

[motofreak2772]

Originally posted by Black Sheep
Actually I was asked by fastredrider two pages back. :blah:
He asked about racing after you had already mentioned the trikes. All I am saying is you threw trikes into the argument and started defending them for no reason.

[mxduner]

lmao

[Black Sheep]

Originally posted by motofreak2772
He asked about racing after you had already mentioned the trikes. All I am saying is you threw trikes into the argument and started defending them for no reason.


The only reason I mentioned the trike was someone told me I had no clue about how hard it was to ride a quad. I thought is was kinda ironic since it is harder to ride a trike then a quad. A point I don't think any of you would argue.

[guy310]

I am sure you get paid huge factory money for that full sponsored trike ride right? Ask Chad if he would trade you salaries for a year.

[ryan243]

I'm still stuck on the nerf bar comment.. How does that automatically make a quad a bumper car? Have you never watched a pro bike race to see how much they bump? Waaay more than the quad guys do. Does that mean that since bike guys have elbows they can bounce off each other with they are automatically bumper cars too? This whole thing is stupid, why can't we give Chad props for doing amazing and call it good?

[rageatvsupermom]

WAY TO GO CHAD!!!!!!!! You so rock. If anyone could do it Chad would be the one. Now go get them at Loretta's.

[FHKracingZ]

Its ok BlackSheep, you can keep your high profile resume on secret status because we dont really care how many local trike races you have won.

Im not scared to say my accomplishments about racing. I have qualified for every AMA Atv Pro NATIONAL <-- yep still nationals, in the pro-am production class every time I have tried. I pit out of a cargo van and work 30-40 hours a week while going to college. I train hard, and do my best. Heck, 90% of the people I race against there generators on their rig cost more than my whole setup haha.

This sport has giving me alot, met alot of important industry people, always having a good time. I love ATV racing, and will back it to death by haters or people who wont admit the truth, and when I say that I think i stand for alot of riders on this forum.


And you did not give an opinion on both. Your opinion was just how we are idiots for stating the truth that quads were faster at redbud. You just shot it down like every other bike rider. Thats why everybody is going at you.

Back to your original post.

"his crap about lap times is just CRAP!!! They did not race in the same conditions and it was only one race on one track. I have watched both bike and quad nationals and the quads races are like riding on a highway...smooth. Another thing about quads....them stupid nerf bars...WTF..ever since they started to use them quad racing became more like bumper cars...can't pass a guy with your skill...just ram him out of your way in the next corner...BS if you ask me."

So you have raced quads yet you disagree with nerf bars? Any quad racer has been saved by more than once by nerf bars. And your great experience at quad racing would obviously be right about quad nationals being smooth, you sure hit that one on the nail :rolleyes: . Quad nationals are usually brutal rough for quads. 80% of the roughness on a quad national track is not visiable by standing their watching. Anybody who has raced an atv national can agree with this.

[ryan243]

I raced my first national on stock shocks.... BIG MISTAKE! Those tracks are always incredibly rough, to say they are smooth is just complete ignorance

[braybray08]

Originally posted by Black Sheep

In the end I'm having the last laugh while I get paid to ride while most of you pay out your *** to ride.

Who's the stupid one now :D

Wow.... So you hit triples that quads wont hit, let past quad champions ride your trike but aren't nearly as fast as you on a bad day, and all while get paid doing it.... Congratulations

[Black Sheep]

Originally posted by braybray08
Wow.... So you hit triples that quads wont hit, let past quad champions ride your trike but aren't nearly as fast as you on a bad day, and all while get paid doing it.... Congratulations

Nope I said nothing of the sort.

I said a triple that most quads don't hit. A lot of the top pros clear it...at least I think so I only watched a few laps.

I never said he wasn't as fast as me. All I said was at the race in question it was his first time on a trike in ten years and his first time on one of ours. I don't think it's fair to judge someone based of off that. Especially someone who has won a pro am quad championship. In fact as one of your quad brothers you should be proud he jumped right in with trikes and finished second his first race and won his second pulling off a heal clicker on a the double. But you again you want respect but show none.

like I stated earlier I make my living this way and enjoy my job. Thank you very much.

[jigg14]

Originally posted by Black Sheep


I won't even ride a quad right now because it is so easy it dulls my trike riding skills. Maybe when I re-retire from trike racing I will but not before then.

You obviously did say riding a quad was easy^^^

If you truly believe this statement is true, why aren't you one of the top quad pros? I promise if you were you'd be making just a little more than riding trikes.

As for nerf bars, you must never have really rode a quad hard.

And all the older guys are bashing us "kids" but it looks like the "kids" might just be a little faster on the track... Chad Wienen for example.. 25 years old.... Not in his 40's or whatever....

[protraxrptr17]

How many professional three-wheeler riders are there? Not bashing, just amazed that sponsors are paying enough to make a living. Doug Gust didn't have a ride this year, but three-wheeler riders have a ride and a salary. :eek2:

[atvfrk10]

That is very amazing the chad put down those kind of lap times, everyone should respect those times.

I just find it funny that dirtbikers always resort to the balance issue.

The reason two wheeled vehicles are stable is because of the rotational inertia the wheels produce. The faster the wheels spin the more stable it vehicle become.

heres a great example...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H98BgRzpOM&feature=related

So unless your ride a trails bike, balance isnt much of an assest to brag about...

sure, turning affects this, but its that same asset that is need to ride a bicycle...

Yes i have both, 4 quads, 2 bikes, ones a street bike the oher is a dirt bike. They each have there strenghts and weakness but saying one takes more skill that the other is obserd. They each take there own unique set of skills...

[RATPACK Z400]

Its funny how people try to down this achievement !the track was the same the bikes always get a more groomed track where the quads are lucky if they do anything to the track before they race and people want to try and say the track conditions are different ,of course they are the quads make different tracks in the track than bike and vice versas but the time was better than the bikes and the bikes or quad haters want to cry about balence/condition/jumps/etc fact is it happened and maybe we can get some respect now,But probably wont cause there is so many Haters ! Atvs should be in XGames /gravity/etc but they arent and its because of these haters that are stopping quads to be there .they got rallycars before ATVS please what next lawnmower racing in the X games before atvs?They could and some cool events like hill climbing,water skimming/mud bogs /race bikes&quads against each other like we all would love to see!